Building a Spell-less Ranger - Advice is sought!

[Greenfeuer]

Hello there people, I am making a Halfling Spell-less Ranger.

We are converting our characters from Pathfinder, a formerly Warhammer second edition. So there is som lore / reason to choose what I choose, for bonus racials + other abilties.

http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/ranger%20variant.pdf

I like to have comments on my build and suggestions, aswell on the few mods that are made. If they are bad good or in balanced or well balanced.

My background story will be Folk Hero but my GM agreed to let me drop animal handling for somthing else, since I won't be using it alot. Hardly
use the rideing pony my halfling has for anything but short trips or carrying stuff, he prefer to go by foot. The skills will be: Acrobatics and Survival.

I will be level 8.

My proficent skills will be: Perception, Stealth, Atheltics. - Acrobatics and Survival from story!


My stats will be as following:

12 Str
16 Dex
14 Con
10 int
14 Wisdom
10 Cha

I my get less Wisdom for more 12 Cha, because my character is quite social. I tend to carry / have alot of gear, for hunting trolls and such on this character +1 strenght score is quite need to have

Feats: Lucky, Sharpshooter.



I will trade a few things for more racial to fit the Warhammer lore since we play in that world.

Heavy armor for: Halfling Weapon Training: When you attack with a dagger, a short sword, or a sling with which you have proficiency, the damage die for that weapon increases by one step: from d4 to d6, or d6 to d8.

Medium armor for: Magic Resistance or Gnome "Halfling" cunning.

All shields beside buckler for: Night Vision.


I am going ranged so I naturally choose Archery, but I will be using a Sling


I got a got problem with the following class ability -

SCOUT’S INSTINCTS: At 3rd level, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with any two of the following skills:Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival. At 10th level you can choose another two skill proficiencies togain this benefit.

The problem is, I run out of skills to choose, since it seemse to double the proficiency, and I don't got that with Nature or Investigation, which leaves the question. Wil I be allowed to chose another then? Do I simply get proficency in the skill I choose, that I normally didn't? - As it is, I am forced to drop one of the skills, to take nature or investigation.


Another one is I am going to trade following ability for a feat. Or is it worth more?

CALL NATURAL ALLIES: Starting at 13th level, when you are in an area of your favoredterrain, you can call natural creatures from that terrain tofight on your behalf, using your attunement to the naturalworld to convince them to aid you. The DM chooses beastsappropriate to the terrain to come to your aid from amongthose that could hear you and that are within 1 mile of you,in one of the following groups:• One beast of challenge rating 3 or lower• Three beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower• Six beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower• Twelve beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower.

Because it simply don't fit my character.


Going to mod my Herbalist kit into a Halfling Cooking kit which is a mixture of that and Cooking. - Since apperently Halfling cooking as healing propperties in Warhammer. - This changes nothing in the rules but more my characters approach for RP flavor.


With that said, looking forward to all of you guys feedback!

Going Hunter by the way so faar. I haven't been able to locate the scout data.

I am thinking of which ability to choose for archtypes abilties too.

HUNTER’S PREY: At 3rd level, you gain one of the following features of yourchoice:

• Giant Killer: When a Large or larger creature within 5feet of you hits or misses you with an attack, you canuse your reaction to attack that creature immediatelyafter its attack, provided that you can see the creature.In addition, when fighting Large or larger creatures you may Dodge as a bonus action.

• Horde Breaker: Once on each of your turns when youmake a weapon attack, you can make another attackwith the same weapon against a different creature thatis within 5 feet of the original target and within range ofyour weapon.In addition, when within 5 feet of two or more foes, youmay Help an ally as a bonus action.

• Relentless Harrier: Your tenacity can wear down themost potent foes. When you hit a creature with aweapon attack, the creature takes an extra 2d4 damageif it’s below its hit point maximum. You can deal thisextra damage only once per turn.At 7th, 11th, and 15th levels, you gain an additional d4 ofdamage, to a maximum of 5d4 at levels 15 and higher.

[Greenfeuer]

Anyone? :)

[DanyBallon]

Have you consider the Scout fighter archetype from the latest UA? It makes an effective spell-less ranger.

[EvilAnagram]

Take basic Ranger business minus casting. Use Combat Superiority, Improved Combat Superiority, and Resilience from the Battle Master features. If a nonmagical feature requires a spell slot, use a superiority die instead.

[gfishfunk]

http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/ranger%20variant.pdf

I like to have comments on my build and suggestions, aswell on the few mods that are made. If they are bad good or in balanced or well balanced.

The variant has a few holes that need closing. Natural Lore should only be used during a long rest, not a short rest, otherwise you can potentially get about 15 'cure wound' spells a day.

Also, this has a fighter-esque approach to ASI, which is a bit over the top as well. There should not be an extra ASI at 16, which is a bit overpowered.

In summary, there are too many features and bonuses, with not enough limitations. For consistency and balance, I would make a few additional limitations.


I got a got problem with the following class ability -

SCOUT’S INSTINCTS: At 3rd level, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with any two of the following skills:Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival. At 10th level you can choose another two skill proficiencies togain this benefit.

The problem is, I run out of skills to choose, since it seemse to double the proficiency, and I don't got that with Nature or Investigation, which leaves the question. Wil I be allowed to chose another then? Do I simply get proficency in the skill I choose, that I normally didn't? - As it is, I am forced to drop one of the skills, to take nature or investigation.

Generally, if you fail to meet the requirements, you don't get it. So, no. Suppose you choose Nature for expertise but are not proficient. You would double your proficiency bonus, which is zero.

Furthermore, you probably should only gain one at level 3, and another at level 10.


Another one is I am going to trade following ability for a feat. Or is it worth more?

CALL NATURAL ALLIES: Starting at 13th level, when you are in an area of your favoredterrain, you can call natural creatures from that terrain tofight on your behalf, using your attunement to the naturalworld to convince them to aid you. The DM chooses beastsappropriate to the terrain to come to your aid from amongthose that could hear you and that are within 1 mile of you,in one of the following groups:• One beast of challenge rating 3 or lower• Three beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower• Six beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower• Twelve beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower.

I would hesitate to trade anything for a feat, which is equivalent of a stat increase. Frankly, the class gives you too many features. You can straight drop this and keep things balanced.

[Alejandro]

Have you consider the Scout fighter archetype from the latest UA? It makes an effective spell-less ranger.

What they said. Much less work for same results.

[Greenfeuer]

The variant has a few holes that need closing. Natural Lore should only be used during a long rest, not a short rest, otherwise you can potentially get about 15 'cure wound' spells a day.

Also, this has a fighter-esque approach to ASI, which is a bit over the top as well. There should not be an extra ASI at 16, which is a bit overpowered.

In summary, there are too many features and bonuses, with not enough limitations. For consistency and balance, I would make a few additional limitations.



Generally, if you fail to meet the requirements, you don't get it. So, no. Suppose you choose Nature for expertise but are not proficient. You would double your proficiency bonus, which is zero.

Furthermore, you probably should only gain one at level 3, and another at level 10.



I would hesitate to trade anything for a feat, which is equivalent of a stat increase. Frankly, the class gives you too many features. You can straight drop this and keep things balanced.



Well many others I talked with said the quite oppsit that they feared my bonuses for not having spells was too narrow or that Battlemaster/Rogue - Scout/Rogue would be better, or could be better.

So faar I am sticking to spell-less Ranger cause it fits my concept more.

My GM is fairly good at ruleing out abusive behavior of abilties, my character ain't gonna craft healing pots each time we rest, and lot of times, and alot of times it won't make sense. But a long rest is somthing we usally only take in inn's or relatively safe places, where I can't craft them cause it deoesn't fit too well. - But I understand you corncern.


I don't find it power full with more ACI, when you look at the superiorty dices + Manuvers and what not Fighter gets normally. - But I get what you mean, I just don't agree fully.

About scout instincts. My GM allowed me to put acrobatics or Atheltics, to not force me into having to choose investigation or nature to be "completable". - I disagree again on only gaining one, simply because
I feel it will lack uility otherwise.

Anyway I am very thankful for the answer, cause it give me somthing to reflect upon should I be proven wrong, or see for myself things are over the top. But as for now I don't agree, but I get where you coming from with it ;)



I feel the Fighter is sorta dull, it may just be me personally who have the wrong idear of how it works, but I find the mehanics and the explainations in the fighter stuff to be very boring. Battlemaster + Scout, however give som interesting features though. I feel the Ranger to have more roleplay flavored stuff and more then just a dice here and there. - But again I may be looking at with the wrong eyes.

I came from Pathfinder, so it all is pretty new to me. I have been reading the hell out of the book and forums to get an idear of how it all comes together :) - Aswell talking to my GM who played the game too.


My GM have agreed to the mods and the work has already been done + I think the link to the Spell-less Ranger is totally legit in alot of ways, I rather not tamper with it too much myself other then what I have done already.

[Kane0]

Check my sig, may be of hse to you. It really doesnt lose much from loss of spells.

[Greenfeuer]

Check my sig, may be of hse to you. It really doesnt lose much from loss of spells.

It looks cool enough, but I think I stick with the version I have :)

[djreynolds]

The scout is awesome. Seriously, I started a thread on it. It has everything in it to be a woodsman, coupled with some rouge, best archer hands down. Even coupled with a bard.

Way better. More skills than a ranger, precision, favored terrains, superiority dice to skill checks.... and 7 feats.

[EvilAnagram]

The scout is awesome. Seriously, I started a thread on it. It has everything in it to be a woodsman, coupled with some rouge, best archer hands down. Even coupled with a bard.

Way better. More skills than a ranger, precision, favored terrains, superiority dice to skill checks.... and 7 feats.

Battle Master is still a better archer.

Also, the Ranger's spells make up for all of that, save Precision Attack, which is a damn fine ability.

[Greenfeuer]

The scout is awesome. Seriously, I started a thread on it. It has everything in it to be a woodsman, coupled with some rouge, best archer hands down. Even coupled with a bard.

Way better. More skills than a ranger, precision, favored terrains, superiority dice to skill checks.... and 7 feats.


So faar I stick wtih Spell-less ranger but I would love to know a rogue/scout build still. I am level 8.

So is it 4/4 or 2 rogue 5 Scout?

What class is best chooseing first? Do I get saving throws from both classes?

[djreynolds]

Battle Master is still a better archer.

Also, the Ranger's spells make up for all of that, save Precision Attack, which is a damn fine ability.

I like the battle master because he has more options in the superiority dice, like trip and disarm. But this new scout is the best scout. Basically he gets 5 skills, he gets the rangers ability to double the wisdom and intelligence based skills in his favored terrain, and when need he can add upwards of 1d12 to any skill check. And precision, BM included, is a "guarantee to hit" with sharpshooter.

But I do like the ranger's spell list, very underrated IMO.

You could make a very awesome woodsman with a scout/hunter/rouge combo.

I would begin with the fighter scout, for the armor, its nice to have when needed. You'll lose only one skill from rouge. And you will begin play with +2 from the archery style. And I like that swashbuckler, I'm unsure how a DM would rule his ability to sneak attack anyone, if its only in melee, but if it is allowed for ranged you could clean out enemy.

For me, at some point, you cannot add anymore +'s to your to hit, you've maxed out dex, have archery style.... its up to you if you think that the 3rd attack is worth it over the sneak attack damage. For me, this scout gets 5 dice at 7th level and a 6th at 15, so 5 dice at 7th level is awesome. I would go 12 rogue/ and 8 scout. Plenty of feats as well.

[Greenfeuer]

I like the battle master because he has more options in the superiority dice, like trip and disarm. But this new scout is the best scout. Basically he gets 5 skills, he gets the rangers ability to double the wisdom and intelligence based skills in his favored terrain, and when need he can add upwards of 1d12 to any skill check. And precision, BM included, is a "guarantee to hit" with sharpshooter.

But I do like the ranger's spell list, very underrated IMO.

You could make a very awesome woodsman with a scout/hunter/rouge combo.

I would begin with the fighter scout, for the armor, its nice to have when needed. You'll lose only one skill from rouge. And you will begin play with +2 from the archery style. And I like that swashbuckler, I'm unsure how a DM would rule his ability to sneak attack anyone, if its only in melee, but if it is allowed for ranged you could clean out enemy.

For me, at some point, you cannot add anymore +'s to your to hit, you've maxed out dex, have archery style.... its up to you if you think that the 3rd attack is worth it over the sneak attack damage. For me, this scout gets 5 dice at 7th level and a 6th at 15, so 5 dice at 7th level is awesome. I would go 12 rogue/ and 8 scout. Plenty of feats as well.

Sounds interessting!


My max however is 4 levels in rogue, before I get abilties that simply doesn't fit my character. - 2 levels however is the prefered amount. - The only reason I would go for the fourth is the ability score improvement, and maybe the assasinate ability. - Though it doesn't fit my character too well.



I would very much like to hear different combo's of Scout and Rogue, thats the ONLY other path I would choose then Spell-less Ranger, and the only that fits.

I think that starting as rogue is better. I prefer to have saves in Dex and Int, over Strenght and Con. + The fact I get ALOT more skills :)

I plan to go light armor due to high dex, and that it fits my characters concept well too :)

[djreynolds]

Sounds interessting!


My max however is 4 levels in rogue, before I get abilties that simply doesn't fit my character. - 2 levels however is the prefered amount. - The only reason I would go for the fourth is the ability score improvement, and maybe the assasinate ability. - Though it doesn't fit my character too well.



I would very much like to hear different combo's of Scout and Rogue, thats the ONLY other path I would choose then Spell-less Ranger, and the only that fits.

I think that starting as rogue is better. I prefer to have saves in Dex and Int, over Strenght and Con. + The fact I get ALOT more skills :)

I plan to go light armor due to high dex, and that it fits my characters concept well too :)

The rogue skills come together after 5th, uncanny dodge, 6th level two more skills with expertise, 7th evasion, 10th reliable talent. I know that 3rd attack is tempting as is the 4th, but remember that sneak attack is every turn and at 12th level is 6d6 buy itself, and at 4th level it is 2d6 sneak attack.

I play a rogue now for one of my campaigns, and he is a killer. No one is immune to sneak attacks, you have 1d8 hit points. Check out the swashbuckler is the SCAG, his ability to freely disengage his melee opponent is as good as a "free" mobile feat, allowing you to swing with your offhand if that first hit misses.

Also check out the war cleric, he also gets a free bonus "attack" which is a great fit for an archery based ranger and giving him real healing spells

[Greenfeuer]

The rogue skills come together after 5th, uncanny dodge, 6th level two more skills with expertise, 7th evasion, 10th reliable talent. I know that 3rd attack is tempting as is the 4th, but remember that sneak attack is every turn and at 12th level is 6d6 buy itself, and at 4th level it is 2d6 sneak attack.

I play a rogue now for one of my campaigns, and he is a killer. No one is immune to sneak attacks, you have 1d8 hit points. Check out the swashbuckler is the SCAG, his ability to freely disengage his melee opponent is as good as a "free" mobile feat, allowing you to swing with your offhand if that first hit misses.

Also check out the war cleric, he also gets a free bonus "attack" which is a great fit for an archery based ranger and giving him real healing spells


I prefer not going to into rogue killer or not, it doesn't fit my concept beyond the first the two, and the two ekstra is if I must take it.

I got another question.

For skills, if I where to go Ranger my GM lets me get Acrobatic through my Bagground story, by switching Acrobatics out with handle animal and land vehicle out with gaming dices.

Anyway! My so faar choices would either be Arcrobatics, Althetics, Survival, Stealth, Perception. Or the same, just with Nature instead of either Acrobatics or Althetics.

I find that the Natural Explorerer will benefit more if I had Nature or Investigation. - Or I could wait thill level 12 and take the Skilled feat. Taking Investigation, Nature, Persuasion.

[djreynolds]

For me, acrobatics or athletics are really important for not getting pushed around in combat. So you need one or the other. And of course athletics is key for exploration.

The ranger has a really good spell selection for exploring, and remember you have a party, so a ranger can and should create a known spell selection based on his party's needs. You may need a healing spell, but only as support or a primary healer, etc.

[Greenfeuer]

For me, acrobatics or athletics are really important for not getting pushed around in combat. So you need one or the other. And of course athletics is key for exploration.

The ranger has a really good spell selection for exploring, and remember you have a party, so a ranger can and should create a known spell selection based on his party's needs. You may need a healing spell, but only as support or a primary healer, etc.

I find Athletics somwhat more important the Acrobatics due to it being used more often, and our GM favors strongly a more "Grim/realistic world/Low fantasy" in some aspekt that is in the Warhammer world. But I can't say for sure, I may buy Skilled later at get the last abilties I need.

But I think I may invest in Nature to get more out of my ranger stuff + survival and that goes hand in hand well.