Rogue Thrower build

[GSQ|unionjack]

Looking to confirm my logic on a rogue throwing build, as I've never had the chance to play a TWF character. More interested in RP than combat but I'd like to stay useful. I'm considering rogue 3/swashbuckler 3/ master thrower 3 to start at level 9. Strongheart halfling, hopefully. If not, a normal halfling. Point blank, Precise Shot, Weapon focus, and TWF. Daring outlaw if I get the bonus feat, delayed if not. +int to damage and weapon finesse from swashbuckler. Hoping to take palm throw (throw 2 dagger/attack) and sneaky throw (slight of hand check/ move action to deny dex).

I just want to check my logic here. Palm throw means 2 daggers thrown in an attack, sneaky throw means I won't be full attacking unless they're already set up for a sneak attack another way. If I use my sneaky throw and attack, is that 2 daggers from my attack and two from TWF, all at -2, all sneak attacks?

Is that the proper logic for TWF? Also, if i'm never full attacking, is there any reason to keep going down the TWF tree?

Beyond that, am I missing anything in my build? I'll take all 5 of master thrower for the critical boosts and weak spot to hit with touch attacks, then more rogue/swashbuckler unless I go whisperknife or something (but that doesn't seem too beneficial?

All tips appreciated, thanks!

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you're not full attacking, you won't get any bonus attacks with vanilla TWF. There are some feats (Double Hit), class features (Tempest, Bloodclaw Master), and maneuvers (Tiger Claw school) that do work.

I suppose you could combine Bloodclaw Master with Bloodstorm Blade to make your throwing attacks as melee attacks, and then making two thrown attacks as a standard.

[Flickerdart]

What kind of rogues are you throwing? While Fine-sized rogues are easier to pick up and toss long distances, they also don't deal a lot of damage. You also get diminishing returns on STR increases because Large and larger creatures do not tend to be rogues, and so while you can lift and throw them, it does not fit your concept.

Ultimately, it will be best to get your STR just high enough to toss halfling rogues and then optimize the number of them you can throw per round.

[Beheld]

If you aren't making full attacks, then you can't TWF at all.

If you are a Rogue, you don't want to be doing anything with your move action besides using it as part of a full attack action.

If you are throwing, you can grab Rapid Shot as well, and then you can throw 6 attacks or 8 with haste using Palm Throw. You are better off committing yourself to some other way of getting SA that doesn't involve your move action, since your current build gets 2 attacks per round (one standard action attack, palm thrown).

I would suggest, since you are a level 9 character, a Ring of Blinking. It's more than half your WBL, so some DMs might not allow it, but point out that if you wanted to you could start with 27k in cash and walk to any Metropolis and buy one. That might drive the point home, or they might still say no. But a Ring of Blinking is going to do 95% of what you want to do with your WBL anyway, it's defensive, it gives you SA, it lets you walk through walls, and it shouldn't give you a miss chance (spell effects end when an item leaves your possession) but the DM might houserule otherwise.

[GSQ|unionjack]

Ok the ring of blinking makes sense, I hadn't put any mind to items yet. So with that, I'm pulling off sneak attacks without having to move, the benefit of being ranged, which means loads of full attacks.

How about the rapid shot feat? Is that also only on full attacks, and does that stack with TWF? Apologies, I've never made a TWF or a non-magic ranged character, so it's all a bit new. If I understand correctly, A full attack would be my standard attack (one or two depending on BAB), an attack from TWF, and an attack from rapid shot, all of 2 knives from palm shot, and all at -4, stacking the hit from TWF and rapid shot?

[AvatarVecna]

Looking to confirm my logic on a rogue throwing build, as I've never had the chance to play a TWF character. More interested in RP than combat but I'd like to stay useful. I'm considering rogue 3/swashbuckler 3/ master thrower 3 to start at level 9. Strongheart halfling, hopefully. If not, a normal halfling. Point blank, Precise Shot, Weapon focus, and TWF. Daring outlaw if I get the bonus feat, delayed if not. +int to damage and weapon finesse from swashbuckler. Hoping to take palm throw (throw 2 dagger/attack) and sneaky throw (slight of hand check/ move action to deny dex).

I just want to check my logic here. Palm throw means 2 daggers thrown in an attack, sneaky throw means I won't be full attacking unless they're already set up for a sneak attack another way. If I use my sneaky throw and attack, is that 2 daggers from my attack and two from TWF, all at -2, all sneak attacks?

Is that the proper logic for TWF? Also, if i'm never full attacking, is there any reason to keep going down the TWF tree?

Beyond that, am I missing anything in my build? I'll take all 5 of master thrower for the critical boosts and weak spot to hit with touch attacks, then more rogue/swashbuckler unless I go whisperknife or something (but that doesn't seem too beneficial?

All tips appreciated, thanks!

I'm going to second the suggestion that you get a more reliable source of getting your SA than a method that spends your move action, but there's a couple other issues with your build (which are, to be fair, issues most thrown builds have):

Firstly, your range is gonna be pretty crappy. Far Shot and Distance Weapons can help make your range increments not as cripplingly terrible, but as-is, you're going to have crap range. Once you pick up Weak Spot, you can be effective at longer ranges due to not caring about the attack penalty, but 50 ft still leaves you pretty dependent on positioning, especially if you essentially never get to move. Increasing your range will increase you ability to affect the battle, even if you're always using your move actions for something else. Incidentally, I also suggest finding some method of free action movement.

Secondly, full attacking multiple rounds in a row is vital to your ability to maintain competitive DPR...and is pretty difficult to do by RAW, at least without breaking the bank or the DM. Long story short: if you're full attacking, and you want to do it every round, you'll need lots of daggers, or you'll need a way to throw the same weapon(s) over and over round to round.
One method of doing so is to have lots of daggers enchanted with the Returning quality; this method can get pretty expensive, especially if you're optimizing for number of attacks, such as via Palm Throw.
Another method is to get the Gloves of Infinite Daggers (or whatever it's called) and convince yourself that quantity is better than quality; I recommend trying to convince your DM to let you upgrade it to provide you with more capable daggers.
Another method is to take the previous example further, by just buying a ton of non-magical daggers and throwing those, and praying that you'll never need magic weapons for some reason.
Another method is to take 4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade, which makes your thrown weapons return to you as soon as the attack is over, letting you full attack with a single thrown weapon; this lets you enchant that one weapon as much as you please without crippling your overall DPR, although it's a pretty significant level investment.
Another method (which is incredibly cheesy) is to cheaply enchant shuriken with the Returning and Morphing properties, and then have them take the form of daggers so they don't break as soon as they hit something. You can enchant tons of shuriken like this pretty cheaply without having to buy more, since they don't break...but this tends to get books thrown at you.
My favorite method of dealing with this problem is, unfortunately, not pure RAW-compliant: beg your DM to let you port over the Blinkback Belt from Pathfinder.

And also seconding Rapid Shot, since you won't really care about the penalty once you've got Weak Spot.

[Beheld]

1) Rapid Shot stacks with TWFing (on thrown weapons only), but does require a full attack, just like TWFing.

2) Doing things to increase your range is worthless, because you can't SA outside 30ft. (Without a wand, and a swift action, ect.)

[AvatarVecna]

1) Rapid Shot stacks with TWFing (on thrown weapons only), but does require a full attack, just like TWFing.

2) Doing things to increase your range is worthless, because you can't SA outside 30ft. (Without a wand, and a swift action, ect.)

Counterpoint to point 2: extending the range the range at which you can attack creatures isn't worthless just because you're not getting full SA. Worth less, to be sure, but not worthless (subtle difference).

Still, you're right in that the limited SA range makes extending range less viable without Sniper's Shot or Sniper's Eye. A wand of Sniper's Eye could potentially be worth doubling your SA range for 50 combats, while using a Wand of Sniper's Shot every round is less than ideal long-term. Of course, depending on how lenient your DM is (both in allowing custom items and stretching RAW), an item of continuous Sniper's Shot could potentially make the point moot for just 8000 gp...but I personally think that interpretation is bunk.

EDIT: A continuous item of Sniper's Eye would be less controversial (assuming your DM is fine with custom items), but it's pretty expensive for double SA range (it has some other benefits, but they're relatively minor).

[Beheld]

Counterpoint to point 2: extending the range the range at which you can attack creatures isn't worthless just because you're not getting full SA. Worth less, to be sure, but not worthless (subtle difference).

If your choice is between attacking for non level appropriate damage, or moving into position to attack for level appropriate damage the next round, the second one is approximately 84 times better.

[AvatarVecna]

If your choice is between attacking for non level appropriate damage, or moving into position to attack for level appropriate damage the next round, the second one is approximately 84 times better.

You forgot the part about hoping they're not the kind of enemy that's capable of fighting from further than 30 ft away from you. I mean, if you're always fighting melee beatsticks then yeah increased range is completely pointless because they enemy will always be within range. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[AZGrowler]

Rogue Thrower build
Does the character have to throw rogues exclusively, or can s/he throw similar-sized humanoids as well?:smalltongue:

[Beheld]

You forgot the part about hoping they're not the kind of enemy that's capable of fighting from further than 30 ft away from you. I mean, if you're always fighting melee beatsticks then yeah increased range is completely pointless because they enemy will always be within range. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

If they are the kind of enemy that's capable of fighting from further than 30ft away, forcing them to respond to you every turn is worth more than doing average 4 damage a round to a 152 HP creature.