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Glaivemaster
2007-06-14, 01:19 PM
Sounds like a bit of a petulant title. Sorry about that, that's just how I view this problem.

Let's start this by giving the relevant information. My D&D group doesn't manage to meet up very often (like, once every few months), and so we never really get long campaigns going. We just stay at someone's house for a few days, and run a mini-campaign with new characters at whatever level I decide to put them at. I'd love to get a campaign going, but that's not possible as it is, and since everyone's leaving for university shortly anyway, there's no point trying now.

Anyway, because we don't have the ability to run a campaign, most of my players like to try a new type of character that they haven't tried before, or that isn't exactly the same as the last one. The character might be different in many or very few aspects; change of class, gender, race alignment or just personality. I encourage this sort of thing, since I like them to see what they do and don't enjoy

However, there is one person in the group who doesn't do this at all. When I first suggested the idea of this group to them, he had had some experience of D&D, and said he wanted to be a Wizard. Lawful Neutral, no special schools. When he played, he was the quiet type of character, roleplayed as someone wise who sat quietly at the back of the party only saying something when necessary. Fair enough, I thought, it's a good enough character concept.

Then I arranged the next session, and told everybody I'd like them to try something new. This guy said he wanted to be a wizard again. I asked if he was going to be pretty much the same as last time, and of course, he was going to be. Wizard, LN, no special schools, quiet character. I tried to convince him he might try something different, but he steadfastly refused. I let it slide that time.

Of course, the next time we met up, he wanted to be a wizard, again I tried convincing him to be something else. First, I tried to convince him to be a different class entirely, a fighter or something. No, definitely not. Ok, maybe someone else who uses spells, like a druid or cleric. Still no. A sorceror maybe? Nope. How about, just being a wizard specialising in a school? No. He won't even play the same class but with a slightly different spin on it, he has to be the same character every time.

At first, I wanted to convince him to try something new for his own benefit. I thought it would be good if everybody got to experiment, and try something new, so that they knew what they enjoyed. Then I wanted him to change for the benefit of the party, so somebody else could take the role of wizard without feeling that it had already been taken (they don't like to overlap too much). Now, I just want him to change because it's annoying me, and it's getting tiring.

Basically, I'm looking for advice on how to get him to try a new character, even if it is a close move to sorceror or specialising in a school. I'm going to run another mini campaign in a couple of months, most likely, and so I've got until the beginning of August to convince him to be a different class.

He knows that I want him to change, I'm not subtle about it any more. So I don't mind any type of advice from straight-out to more subtle measures, but as this is the last campaign I'm probably going to run for a while, I don't want it to be an in-campaign solution which would convince him to be different next time.

Any ideas on how to get him to change?

Thanks in advance

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 01:23 PM
So what you're asking is "how can I make him play something he doesn't want to?"
You pretty much can't.

A better question would be "how do I reconcile what my player wants and what I want peacefully?" That's a tough one. It probably involves communication.

PlatinumJester
2007-06-14, 01:26 PM
Uh, kill his wizard in his sleep and then if he makes another one do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again until he gets the point.

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 01:26 PM
Uh, kill his wizard in his sleep and then if he makes another one do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again until he gets the point.

Yeah! Kill the player's character! Wooooo, he'll sure be having fun then!

:smallfurious:

Saph
2007-06-14, 01:30 PM
Does the rest of the group feel the same way? If so, keep on making fun of him for it. After the hundredth crack about Wizardy McWizardBoy and offers to show him which end he's supposed to pick up a sword by, he might change. Then again, he might not.

This is the kind of thing where group nudging works best. After enough nudges, most people usually make an effort to do something different, if just to shut everyone else up. And sometimes, they find that it's not so bad.

Of course, they might just go right back to what they were doing before. In which case, hey, you've done all you can.

- Saph

PlatinumJester
2007-06-14, 01:33 PM
Yeah! Kill the player's character! Wooooo, he'll sure be having fun then!

:smallfurious:

Yeah, thats the point. If he stops liking a Wizard, then he won't play one anymore. His fault for being conservative.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-06-14, 01:37 PM
Unless someone else in the group actually wants to play a wizard, just let him play it. If they do, though, you and said player can either ask or insist that it's someone else's turn to play a wizard.

Failing that, top trying to change his class choices and try to get him to play the same crunch differantly. I suspect you've tried this already, though, in which case... just let him play what he enjoys playing. He's not exactly being disruptive by doing so.

Quietus
2007-06-14, 01:38 PM
Here's an idea; Try running a game with premade characters. Take the number of players you have, make twice that many sheets, and let them decide whether they want to pick from the pile or just roll and see who gets what.

Don't include a Wizard in the pile of premades.

::Edit:: Alternatively, run a low/no magic campaign, and disallow ALL full casters.

PlatinumJester
2007-06-14, 01:39 PM
Persuade him to play a prestige. I would recommend Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (complete mage or arcana).

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 01:43 PM
Yeah, thats the point. If he stops liking a Wizard, then he won't play one anymore. His fault for being conservative.

Because what you want someone to play should totally take precedence over what they want to play, and it's OK to screw them over until they do what they want?

Geez, come on. A GM should work with the players, not against them.


Edit: I doubt the player will want to play in a no/low magic game, Quietus.

Glaivemaster
2007-06-14, 01:44 PM
Does the rest of the group feel the same way? If so, keep on making fun of him for it. After the hundredth crack about Wizardy McWizardBoy and offers to show him which end he's supposed to pick up a sword by, he might change. Then again, he might not.

This is the kind of thing where group nudging works best. After enough nudges, most people usually make an effort to do something different, if just to shut everyone else up. And sometimes, they find that it's not so bad.

Of course, they might just go right back to what they were doing before. In which case, hey, you've done all you can.

- Saph

I'm fairly sure that the rest of the group are annoyed about it in some way, though not as much as me. I've tried the joking, but that doesn't seem to have changed him.

I don't really mind if he goes straight back to it afterwards, that's his choice. If he doesn't like the new class, I have no problem with him not playing it. The fact he claims that he likes the wizard best, despite not actually having ever played anything different is the main thing that gets me


Here's an idea; Try running a game with premade characters. Take the number of players you have, make twice that many sheets, and let them decide whether they want to pick from the pile or just roll and see who gets what.

Don't include a Wizard in the pile of premades.

That is an idea that I've considered before, the main problem being that no-one else gets as much freedom that way. And despite the fact that it sounds hypocritical, I like to give my players freedom, but this is just really starting to get to me. I might do a random adventure before the rest of the campaign with this idea though, see what happens

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-14, 01:45 PM
Has he given a reason why? If he has, make the reason untrue. For insance, if he says its becasue the other classes are weak, make the adventures highlight the weaknesses of wizards, and at the same time focus on the strengts of the other classes.

Also, talk to the rest of your players without him, too get their opinions. They might not be annoyed as you think.

lotofsnow
2007-06-14, 01:48 PM
Why not just have someone steal his spellbook and spell component pouch? Or, if he's standing in the back of the party, a sneak attack kills wizards pretty easily unless they know it's coming.

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 01:49 PM
Why not just have someone steal his spellbook and spell component pouch? Or, if he's standing in the back of the party, a sneak attack kills wizards pretty easily unless they know it's coming.

Becuase that won't make him like other classes, that'll make him like wizards and hate this game.

lotofsnow
2007-06-14, 01:51 PM
Becuase that won't make him like other classes, that'll make him like wizards and hate this game.

That's a good point. I also mis-read the request that it not be an in-game solution.

Glaivemaster
2007-06-14, 01:51 PM
Has he given a reason why? If he has, make the reason untrue. For insance, if he says its becasue the other classes are weak, make the adventures highlight the weaknesses of wizards, and at the same time focus on the strengts of the other classes.

Also, talk to the rest of your players without him, too get their opinions. They might not be annoyed as you think.

As far as I can tell, he plays wizard because he likes it best. Though he hasn't had any experience with others, so I don't know how he knows. I think he finds other classes a) Too boring and b) Not enough like a wizard


Why not just have someone steal his spellbook and spell component pouch? Or, if he's standing in the back of the party, a sneak attack kills wizards pretty easily unless they know it's coming.

Like I said, I don't want it to be an in-campaign solution, as we probably won't play again after this, or not within a short enough time that he'd actually remember. And I don't want to just hurt his character to be vindictive if he is a wizard despite my protests

Dausuul
2007-06-14, 01:52 PM
I'm fairly sure that the rest of the group are annoyed about it in some way, though not as much as me. I've tried the joking, but that doesn't seem to have changed him.

I don't really mind if he goes straight back to it afterwards, that's his choice. If he doesn't like the new class, I have no problem with him not playing it. The fact he claims that he likes the wizard best, despite not actually having ever played anything different is the main thing that gets me

That is an idea that I've considered before, the main problem being that no-one else gets as much freedom that way. And despite the fact that it sounds hypocritical, I like to give my players freedom, but this is just really starting to get to me. I might do a random adventure before the rest of the campaign with this idea though, see what happens

Why is it getting to you? Presuming that there will be a wizard in the party, why do you care if this guy is the one who plays it? Does he play it in some obnoxious fashion?

If someone else specifically wants to play a wizard, then you should bring it up with the wizard-player and ask if maybe he could take a different role so the other player could try it out. If you have problems with the wizard class itself, disallow it or modify it. If you don't like the way this guy plays his wizards, explain your objections and ask him to change his approach.

But I really don't see any reason why this guy should be forced to change simply for the sake of change. Hey--if playing a wizard is what makes him happy, more power to him. If only all players were so easily satisfied, a DM's job would be much easier than it usually is.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-14, 01:54 PM
You might take a look at magister, from Arcana Evolved, which is very much like a wizard, and fills that role pretty much exactly, but has different flavor. That way, he's doing something different, but still very similar.

That, and I take every opportunity to promote AE spellcasting.

You might also suggest prestige classes (I think Loremaster suits his described temperament).

But in all seriousness, some people just like to play a certain type of character, and will always play that kind of character. Gaming is about escapism, and if he likes to be the wise sagely wizard in his fantasy, by all means encourage that. Its much better than the guy who always wants to play the obnoxious halfling who lies and steals compulsively.

lotofsnow
2007-06-14, 01:55 PM
How does he play his wizard? Is he more of a blaster? Battlefield controller?

If you have access to PHB2, the Beguiler is a really sexy class and could be worth pointing out to him.

Dausuul
2007-06-14, 02:01 PM
How does he play his wizard? Is he more of a blaster? Battlefield controller?

If you have access to PHB2, the Beguiler is a really sexy class and could be worth pointing out to him.

Ugh. No. Do not encourage the playing of beguilers. You're better off with a wizard.

Beguilers have two settings: Off and Win. There is no middle ground. In any given encounter, a beguiler will either completely dominate, or be totally useless. It's a fantastically annoying class for a DM.

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 02:03 PM
Ugh. No. Do not encourage the playing of beguilers. You're better off with a wizard.

Beguilers have two settings: Off and Win. There is no middle ground. It's a fantastically annoying class for a DM.

How so? Beguilers have plenty of options even against things like undead (Slow) and golems (Solid Fog... + ventriloquism, if you took it), and humanoids with good will saves (like clerics) can be challenging.

Alysar
2007-06-14, 02:04 PM
Have you asked him why he wants to never play anything but a wizard?

Quietus
2007-06-14, 02:05 PM
Edit: I doubt the player will want to play in a no/low magic game, Quietus.

Maybe, maybe not. I have no doubt that he'd gripe about it, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't play. He might decide to go Bard, though, but at least that's a change - and as long as the DM makes it fairly clear that a "quiet, unassuming bard" just doesn't make sense, that should be fine.

Remember, there's a lot of people out there who are of the opinion that "A game where I can't play my favorite class, is better than no game at all".

SpiderKoopa
2007-06-14, 02:12 PM
Lol.
You: A man in full plate runs by while shoving a helmet on your head.
Him: What the hell?
You: It was a helm of opposite alignment! Yay! Now you are playing something a little different. =D
...
Oh, also preists, I forgot to say, no god grants remove curse.

Glaivemaster
2007-06-14, 02:15 PM
To those who are saying that letting him play the wizard if he likes it best: Yes, normally I'd be ok with this. However, there are two reasons I'm not: 1) The style in which we play asks for a little variety. Since there is no stable campaign it's nice to have a completely fresh party each time to make sure that each experience is as different as I can make it. 2) He can't know that wizard is his favourite class if he's never tried any others, which he hasn't

Skjaldbakka and lotofsnow: I don't have access to either of those books, and since I don't play often and my money is short as it is, it doesn't feel worth buying them either

Alysar: I've asked him, but he's always quite vague about it. Like I said, his main reason is that it's his favourite class, and that it's his favourite because, well, yeah, whatever. He just likes wizards (that's basically the sort of answer I get)

Quietus: Using a low/no magic game would be the equivalent of just banning him from playing a wizard. If I was willing to do that, I'd have done it already. I'm not going to, because then he'll just be annoyed at not being able to play a wizard, as opposed to actively trying a new class

Remember, the aim is to convince him that other classes might be a nice idea to play, not to force him into not playing a wizard

ravenkith
2007-06-14, 02:19 PM
Ban arcane casters.

Allow psionics.

He'll play a psion.

Or, simply say, this campaign, everyone must pick a different class from last campaign: if you don' like it, here's the door.

Or, write up characters yourself, and hand them out to the players, making sure he gets a psion.

It's close enough to a wizard to be something he might like, but it's different enough he might get interested in playing other things.

The bottom line is: if it's bothering you that much, you, as the DM, are the one who's going to have to get the stones up to do something about it.

Dausuul
2007-06-14, 02:23 PM
To those who are saying that letting him play the wizard if he likes it best: Yes, normally I'd be ok with this. However, there are two reasons I'm not: 1) The style in which we play asks for a little variety. Since there is no stable campaign it's nice to have a completely fresh party each time to make sure that each experience is as different as I can make it. 2) He can't know that wizard is his favourite class if he's never tried any others, which he hasn't

Skjaldbakka and lotofsnow: I don't have access to either of those books, and since I don't play often and my money is short as it is, it doesn't feel worth buying them either

Alysar: I've asked him, but he's always quite vague about it. Like I said, his main reason is that it's his favourite class, and that it's his favourite because, well, yeah, whatever. He just likes wizards (that's basically the sort of answer I get)

Quietus: Using a low/no magic game would be the equivalent of just banning him from playing a wizard. If I was willing to do that, I'd have done it already. I'm not going to, because then he'll just be annoyed at not being able to play a wizard, as opposed to actively trying a new class

Remember, the aim is to convince him that other classes might be a nice idea to play, not to force him into not playing a wizard

Hmm... okay.

The defining trait of the wizard is that he has a box of clever tricks for every occasion. That's probably what this player enjoys. (Speaking as a lover of arcane casters myself, I sympathize, although I have to say I much prefer spontaneous casters to prepared ones.)

I'm guessing you don't have access to the Book of Nine Swords, or I'd suggest a swordsage. So here's a thought: Make a reasonably high-level game (10-12 or so), and require everyone to multi-class at least three levels. That way the wizard player is not unduly singled out.

He'll probably go with eldritch knight or arcane trickster, of course, but at least he'll be out of the "all wizard all the time" rut, and he will gain some exposure to the abilities of other classes.

Morrandir
2007-06-14, 02:24 PM
Show him the Archivist, from Heroes of Horror.

EXACTLY like the Wiz, except it casts Divine spells, instead of Arcane.

Bonus feats are changed as well, but I can't remember what to, and I don't have the book handy, but he might want to give it a shot.

Glaivemaster
2007-06-14, 02:30 PM
Ban arcane casters.

Allow psionics.

Ban arcane casters? No

Psionics? I know nothing about (seriously, I need to actually find out what they even are sometime)

Like I said, I don't have any books apart from Core, so I don't want suggestions about classes or abilities from other sources that aren't free and easily accessible.

Dausuul's multiclassing idea sounds like a good one. I might make the characters lower level since we're quite slow at character creation, and we have little enough time. (We generally make them on the day, because nobody else knows what they're doing) But it would certainly be interesting to see what he picks as a different class.

I might even suggest the idea of multiclassing to him with a low level character. Like, level 4, only 2 levels multiclassed.

Oh, and that's the other thing. I wouldn't mind him playing a wizard if he were a different race (he sticks to human), or a different alignment (he's LN), or anything. So any suggestions on how to change these (race especially) would also be great

Dausuul
2007-06-14, 02:47 PM
Ban arcane casters? No

Psionics? I know nothing about (seriously, I need to actually find out what they even are sometime)

Like I said, I don't have any books apart from Core, so I don't want suggestions about classes or abilities from other sources that aren't free and easily accessible.

Dausuul's multiclassing idea sounds like a good one. I might make the characters lower level since we're quite slow at character creation, and we have little enough time. (We generally make them on the day, because nobody else knows what they're doing) But it would certainly be interesting to see what he picks as a different class.

I might even suggest the idea of multiclassing to him with a low level character. Like, level 4, only 2 levels multiclassed.

Oh, and that's the other thing. I wouldn't mind him playing a wizard if he were a different race (he sticks to human), or a different alignment (he's LN), or anything. So any suggestions on how to change these (race especially) would also be great

Ah, okay. So it's not just all wizards all the time, it's the Magical Self-Cloning Wizard. Now I start to see why it's getting on your nerves.

The race issue is relatively easy to solve. Make a race-specific scenario. For instance, you could run a drow game; it's set in the Underdark and all the PCs have to be dark elves.

Alignment and personality are harder... many players have "types" that they inevitably drift toward, and it can be tough to break out even when the player is actively trying to do so. Habits die hard.

One possibility is to take the multi-class idea I suggested above, and extend it to a specific class: Everybody has to have at least 2 levels of, say, paladin (an Arthurian-style "Knights of the Table Round" scenario). Paladin is a good choice for this because it backs up its alignment restrictions with a fairly well-defined code, which is not trivial to follow. He can't just be his regular Lawful Neutral self and toss a few coins to beggars. At the same time, since the entire party will be following the same code, he won't have to struggle with it as much.

And then, one other option: If you can't beat them, join them. What if you ran an all-wizards game and required each person to specialize in a different school?

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-14, 05:24 PM
Like I said, I don't have any books apart from Core, so I don't want suggestions about classes or abilities from other sources that aren't free and easily accessible.

Ta-da! Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3). And since he's a divine caser, it's a little less likely for him to be LN.

Since he can get wizard spells in his spellbook, it might be a bit easier for your player to try out.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-14, 05:25 PM
Does everyone in the game have internet access? Using www.d20srd.com, you could have access to enough material to write up your characters in advance. If you combine that with www.rpgwebprofiler.net, you could even have the players send the character sheets to you in advance. You can also find the rules for psionics at www.d20srd.com. You could run an all-psionics campaign.


P.S. and you could combine that with starting a play-by-post game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3), that way your group can keep playing after you go your seperate higher-education ways.

RandomNPC
2007-06-14, 06:02 PM
ok, everyone ready, got character background and general demeaner written out? spells ready, gear purchased? good. now pass you character information to the person on your left.

widespread chaos, i promice. if the wizard person gets angry enough to leave call it off as a bad joke and appologize. if you want someone like that in your group.

i had a person who joined my game always playing a true chaotic necromancer, going true necro. and getting feats and things for extra minions and whatnot. well i had him write out his ideas so i could get the books for him to better reference things, and when i got everything it turned out his DM "never used" any of the drawbacks on any of his build, so he expected me to let him play it the way he always did.
he missed a game and the group shot him in the head with a balista (nobody liked him) and when his roommate got home he told him about the deadly "missfire". they talked for a while and he told him he was expected to have a different race/class character when he got back to the game. so the (smart, mature, responsible) guy who died due to a "missfire" got upset and quit the game, at the same time he quit paying rent.

theres an idea, houserule that you need to come back into the game as a new race/class, and wipe the wizard out in an area effect along with one or two others, so it doesn't look like you're picking on him. if he gets upset tell him that tacticly that's what you thought the bad guys would have done.
my group tells themselves that all the time, i had a lich that was prepared for the group on their second fight and they were quite surprised, but the bard brought it up before i even had a chance.

Brother_Franklin
2007-06-14, 07:26 PM
I have two ideas:

1) Rogue quest!! Everyone has to be a rouge. Really Rogue quests are fun in their own right and should be fun for all your players.
(Maybe your heisting a quite wizard type charater.)

2) Give him a love interest. Then he can play a wizard, but will be forced into changing his personality due to the circumstances.

Matthew
2007-06-14, 10:10 PM
Talk to him outside the game. Try and get to the bottom of what is driving him to play the same Character week after week when the sessions are themselves not set up that way and come to a mutual agreement as to what to do about it.

Failing that, have everybody play a Wizard next time, maybe the exact same Wizard, maybe a better version...

Yahzi
2007-06-14, 10:40 PM
1) The style in which we play asks for a little variety.
On the other hand, knowing what he will play gives you something to plan around.


2) He can't know that wizard is his favourite class if he's never tried any others, which he hasn't
If you played D&D every single day, you might have a point.

But you're complaining because this guy knows what he likes, and prefers to get the most out of his limited gaming time.

Just let him have his fun, already.

Quietus
2007-06-14, 10:45 PM
Quietus: Using a low/no magic game would be the equivalent of just banning him from playing a wizard. If I was willing to do that, I'd have done it already. I'm not going to, because then he'll just be annoyed at not being able to play a wizard, as opposed to actively trying a new class

Remember, the aim is to convince him that other classes might be a nice idea to play, not to force him into not playing a wizard


Understandable. Still, if YOU think the low/no magic game would be fun, perhaps it's worth getting everyone together and talking about what kind of game they'd like to play, and bring it up. You could even combine this with the multiclassing option mentioned below, and simply say that you CAN take levels in full caster classes, but no more than 1/2 your levels, rounded up, can be full casters.

As for convincing him, I can't really help there. I'm pretty good when it comes to talking to people directly, but not so much when I don't have direct feedback. You've determined that he simply thinks every other class is boring - do you have a WHY? Maybe figuring out WHY he thinks the other classes are boring would be an option. Find out what he sees the difference between Wizard and Sorceror to be, what makes the Wizard so much more fun. Then find the same with Clerics. Finally, compare to Fighters/Rogues. It helps to have an idea of where he's coming from, and right now, you're pretty much giving us the impression he's got some kind of stick (not unlike a Paladin's) that's forcing him to play the exact same identical character every single game.

TheLogman
2007-06-14, 11:04 PM
If you can't change the flavor of the person, change the flavor of the Class. Change the Wizard to be more like a Truespeaker. You can't find any info on a Truespeaker on the SRD though, cause its the property of Wizards. Here's the idea, the person makes a skill check to cast his spells, and he verbalizes his spells. Suddenly, the person gets almost nothing but Performance (Oratory), Diplomacy, and Intimidate for Class skills, that and his casting skill, which would either be Spellcraft, or something new, like Magic craft probably getting its bonus to check from Intelligence, but Charisma would do well with the Flavor. He can't be quiet any more, because not only do his spells require him to speak, and speak amazingly to describe the events that are about to unfold, but he also becomes the party mouthpiece. The formula for making the check would probably be: 10+Spell level+Level/HD of thing he is trying to effect. I.E. With a Fly spell, cast on himself he would have to beat an 18 or higher, which isn't all that hard, considering the Skill points he would succeed half the time, and more often then that if he gets any bonus at all to his checks by having a high ability score. in exchange for the chance of his spells failing like this, let him prepare spells, then cast then as many times as he wants, but each time, he has to beat the DC +1 more. Also, for effecting multiple things, you roll for each one, or alternatively, could allow him to only have to beat the average Hd of them, or if you are feeling tough, he has to beat the highest HD to hit anything in the area. If you need anything clarified, or I didn't type something well, just post so, and I'll try to fix it up.

Leon
2007-06-15, 02:39 AM
Just let the poor bloke play a Wizard, he likes the class and the concept even if you dont.

That or play in a setting where Wizardry is a risky business (Dark Sun) - he can still be one but will have to make tough choices and face possible persuctuion for his chosen class

Glaivemaster
2007-06-15, 04:07 AM
Ta-da! Archivist. And since he's a divine caser, it's a little less likely for him to be LN.

Since he can get wizard spells in his spellbook, it might be a bit easier for your player to try out.

That's perfect! I'll ask him about it later today, and see what he thinks. I can't imagine he'd disagree, if only to get me to stop whining


ok, everyone ready, got character background and general demeaner written out? spells ready, gear purchased? good. now pass you character information to the person on your left.

widespread chaos, i promice. if the wizard person gets angry enough to leave call it off as a bad joke and appologize. if you want someone like that in your group.

That's a fun idea, and he wouldn't get too mad, I suppose. But that's a last minute last resort


*snip* so the (smart, mature, responsible) guy who died due to a "missfire" got upset and quit the game, at the same time he quit paying rent.

I wouldn't want to play with a group that killed my character while I wasn't even there


theres an idea, houserule that you need to come back into the game as a new race/class, and wipe the wizard out in an area effect along with one or two others, so it doesn't look like you're picking on him. if he gets upset tell him that tacticly that's what you thought the bad guys would have done.
my group tells themselves that all the time, i had a lich that was prepared for the group on their second fight and they were quite surprised, but the bard brought it up before i even had a chance.

I don't like to kill the PCs. The last time a PC died the campaign came to a halt, as nobody really knew what to do next. That, and it's cruel, especially at low levels


As for convincing him, I can't really help there. I'm pretty good when it comes to talking to people directly, but not so much when I don't have direct feedback. You've determined that he simply thinks every other class is boring - do you have a WHY? Maybe figuring out WHY he thinks the other classes are boring would be an option. Find out what he sees the difference between Wizard and Sorceror to be, what makes the Wizard so much more fun. Then find the same with Clerics. Finally, compare to Fighters/Rogues. It helps to have an idea of where he's coming from, and right now, you're pretty much giving us the impression he's got some kind of stick (not unlike a Paladin's) that's forcing him to play the exact same identical character every single game.

Right, from talking to him about it, I think I can sum it up as this. Any non-spellcasting class can't cast spells (duh), and he wants to cast spells. That's fine with me, and understandable. He doesn't like secondary spellcasters (paladins, bards etc.) for similar reasons.

He doesn't enjoy divine spellcasters because, I think, their spells are too different (which is mostly true), and he prefers the arcane spells. He doesn't like the sorceror because of its style. He prefers the learned archetype more than the natural caster. Also, sorceror doesn't fit his RP style very well.

His main reason for liking the wizard (I think) is the capability to learn so much more spells than other classes that learn spells. Obviously the only two classes with more spells are clerics and druids. He probably sees the cleric (fairly) as just the healer and the buffer, and thus uniniteresting. The druid would be too hippie for his tastes.

This has given me an idea - I might try (though probably unsuccessfully) to convince him that the cleric doesn't just have to be the healer, and see what he thinks.

My first thing is going to be to show him the archivist class though, since I think he'd enjoy that, due to it's obvious similarities, and the ability to appear knowledgeable.

Sorry for the long post, but there was a lot of stuff to get through

Setra
2007-06-15, 04:45 AM
If all else fails...

Make a dungeon that is covered in a huge anti-magic field.

Like a Lion
2007-06-15, 04:49 AM
If all else fails...

Make a dungeon that is covered in a huge anti-magic field.

Wow, fail. Did you just not read the thread or something?

Setra
2007-06-15, 04:50 AM
Wow, fail. Did you just not read the thread or something?
I kinda skimmed. I'm tired. Sue me.

I'll use the chewbacca defense. :smalltongue:

On another note, I'm not well known for any ability to convince people anything, without practically outright forcing them.

I apologize.

Glaivemaster
2007-06-15, 04:59 AM
If all else fails...

Make a dungeon that is covered in a huge anti-magic field.

I suggested that to my group as a joke once. It didn't go over too well with him. Also, he pointed out that while he'd be completely useless, he'd still be a wizard. Darn logic :smallannoyed:

Seriously though, no, I wouldn't do it for obvious reasons, ever.

Renx
2007-06-15, 05:29 AM
The question no one has asked here is... how does he actually play the wizard? Munchkin? Area damage? Batman? Good tacticals for every situation?

Well, anyway, if you have just Core stuff, it's understandable. Let him read some crystal keep feat/PrC lists, maybe offer him an interesting story or a plot hook. Find out why he wants to play as a wizard, then work on that.

There's no single solution for it, but if he's just anxious that he won't play as well as another class, PrCs should be interesting enough. Maybe tell him that there's already a wizard coming up in the group and he has to be at least another mage-type for the party to work.

Dausuul
2007-06-15, 05:46 AM
The druid would be too hippie for his tastes.

I've had the same problem with druids. My solution is to re-define the druid's ethos, based on the fact that the druid is living in a medieval world full of horrible monsters instead of modern Earth.

The way I see it, druids aren't about protecting nature from humans--they would find that idea laughable. Nature takes care of itself. Likewise, they recognize no distinction between the natural and the civilized. Everyone is part of the natural world and subject to natural law, from the rudest villager to the most sophisticated courtier. The only difference is that the villager knows it while the courtier often doesn't.

The druid's role is that of sage and counsellor; they are scholars who have an unparalleled practical understanding (as opposed to the wizard's theoretical knowledge) of how the world works. They tend to take the long view of things, and they are very much aware of the consequences of people's actions. They advise conservation of natural resources, not because they're scared that the nasty people will hurt the pretty trees and the cute fluffy bunnies, but because people who don't conserve their resources are setting themselves up for starvation, pestilence, and war a few years down the road. They mistrust ideologues and try to maintain a clear perspective--hence the restriction from espousing the most extreme alignments.

Because druids are Wisdom-based, their specialty is seeing the big picture. While wizards focus on the "how," a druid is more likely to consider the "why." Forget for the moment the question of whether the party's clever plan will work; the question is, if it does work, will it actually accomplish what the party is trying to do? Does the party even know what it's trying to do, or are they just floundering around? The druid is most adept at seeing when the party is becoming so obsessed with their chosen means (e.g., killing the monster) that they've lost sight of the end (protecting the village that the monster threatens, which might be better achieved in some other fashion).

I don't know if any of this will make druids more attractive to your wizard-player, but I know it made them more palatable to me. :smallbiggrin:

Renx
2007-06-15, 06:19 AM
This has given me an idea - I might try (though probably unsuccessfully) to convince him that the cleric doesn't just have to be the healer, and see what he thinks.

Give him access to (at least most) of Crystal Keep's spell lists :P There is some really funky stuff there.

Tokiko Mima
2007-06-15, 07:27 AM
I'm fairly sure that the rest of the group are annoyed about it in some way, though not as much as me. I've tried the joking, but that doesn't seem to have changed him.

I don't really mind if he goes straight back to it afterwards, that's his choice. If he doesn't like the new class, I have no problem with him not playing it. The fact he claims that he likes the wizard best, despite not actually having ever played anything different is the main thing that gets me.



That is an idea that I've considered before, the main problem being that no-one else gets as much freedom that way. And despite the fact that it sounds hypocritical, I like to give my players freedom, but this is just really starting to get to me. I might do a random adventure before the rest of the campaign with this idea though, see what happens

Freedom allows and includes the option of making poor choices, based solely on what was done last time. This human conservative tendency is very strong and is what, for example, often keeps incumbent politicians in office.

As long as you give your other players freedom, fairness demands that you allow your Wizard the option of remaining a Wizard. I recommend you figure out why it really bothers you that he's always choosing Wizard. Pardon my boldness, but it shouldn't make any difference at all whether he does this or not.

Glaivemaster
2007-06-15, 09:24 AM
Ok, I think I need to clear this up, because I've been a bit...unclear in stating what it is that I dislike. There are a few things people have said that show that not everyone understands what the problem is, and it's probably due to the way I've phrased things.

People think that I have problems with my players wanting to play wizards, or the wizard class in general. This is not the case. People also think that I have a problem with this person playing a wizard, which is not (entirely) true.

The problem I have with this person is that he plays the same character time after time. It's not just the same class, it's also the same race, alignment, personality, gender (while those last three I don't normally mind people not changing, it would make a difference in this case). Down to the spells he chooses, each character is exactly the same. I may as well not give him a new character sheet, because it'll come out looking like a clone of the last one he made, spells, skill points feats and all.

I don't dislike wizards, and I'm not trying to stop him playing a wizard (well, I am, but there are other ways of getting round this problem which would still allow him to be a wizard). I like the wizard class, and I'm happy for him to be a wizard, if at least something changes about his character no matter how minor (though the bigger the better)

Sorry if that felt like a bit of a rant, or an attack on some people, it wasn't meant to be. I'm just trying to clarify what the problem is, and it's not the wizard, it's "the Magical Self-Cloning Wizard" as Dausuul put it. I mean, even the name doesn't change. I've yet to find out how this wizard can teleport between planes of existence, but I'd like to try and put a stop to it

prufock
2007-06-15, 10:37 AM
There isn't really much advice I can give on how to convince a guy to play a character that he doens't want to play. You can beg, plead, bribe, threaten, discuss, and show him all the other cool classes in the new books, but if he want's to be a LN human wizard, he's going to be a LN human wizard. Your best bet is to try to circumvent his choice.
Ideas (some of these fit your situation better than others):
#1 - Run an evil session. Evil campaigns give players a chance to experiment, break out of old habits. Even if he still plays a LN human non-specialized wizard, it may change his character's personality.
#2 - Run a different setting. The d20 Modern SRD (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Home.php) is available online, if you don't want to shell out the cash for the books.
#3 - Have everyone build 2+ characters. The online SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) should be available to everyone who can get access to an internet connection, so they can build them before the game. Run your game with high fatality rates (challenging encounters, wound point variant, no magical healing - use your imagination). Once his LN human wizard dies, he'll have to use one of his backups (and this rule applies to everyone, so he isn't singled out).
#4 - The multiclass rule that was already mentioned is a good one.
#5 - The "all wizard" idea that someone mentioned is also a good one. Make them part of a guild or arcane society. Each player can pick a school in which to specialize, no doubles, and they're teamed up so that every party has all schools available - so you don't want every player giving up the same school(s). This would require him to specialize, but he can still play his LN unassuming human wizard.
#6 - Try a campaign with only NPC classes. Yeah, they suck, but that's kind of the point. They're "overcoming the odds"-type heroes.
#7 - Why not get this guy to be the DM? It gives you a break, and you won't have to deal with LN wizard, unless he shows up as an NPC. Plus, he might see how much work it is, and appreciate you a bit more, making him more inclined to take your suggestions to heart.
#8 - If he's intent on being an unassuming, quiet character, either use against him. Give him some special quality (a birthmark, for instance), that identifies him as either bad luck or good luck. Make him an important player in some kind of prophecy. Have someone blackmail him, or frame him for a crime. Give him some measure of celebrity. Put him in a land where humans aren't particularly welcome, or where people are superstitious about magic. Give him an obsessive admirer. Just go out of your way to do something so that he can't just sit back and be the quiet, intellectual, Silent Bob-type character.
#9 - If he's really intent on playing this same character all the time, why not just use that? Make your sessions semi-continuous, and let him use the same character every game if he desires. Make that option open for the other players as well, but it seems like they might like the variety. He could be a member of an army or militia, or an adventurers' guild, even a ranking member, if they're playing high-level. He gets assigned teams for his various missions.
#10 - Game without him. I'm guessing he's a good friend, and you like gaming with him, so this probably isn't a viable option, but if he's more of a sometime-acquaintance, it could be. You don't have to cut him out altogether, but you could hold a session or two where you don't have to hear the words "I wanna be a wizard!"

Glaivemaster
2007-06-15, 11:12 AM
There isn't really much advice I can give on how to convince a guy to play a character that he doens't want to play. You can beg, plead, bribe, threaten, discuss, and show him all the other cool classes in the new books, but if he want's to be a LN human wizard, he's going to be a LN human wizard. Your best bet is to try to circumvent his choice.
Ideas (some of these fit your situation better than others):
#1 -
#2 -
#3 -
#4 -
#5 -
#6 -
#7 -
#8 -
#9 -
#10 -

1) We did an evil session last time. It's true, he was slightly more active in discussion, but unfortunately didn't get a chance to truly shine as three of the players were more concerned with killing each other or any other living creature in sight
2) I think everyone's most interested in basic D&D at the moment, not to mention I don't really have time to learn rules for a new game
3) I still don't like killing characters as a solution to my problems, even if they have backup characters for that very reason
4) Yeah, that's one of my favourite so far
5) It's an option, though I might go for an all-race campaign, or just a non-human so that the players still have some variation and choice (set in a world before humans evolved or something)
6) I do want to do that at some point, so it's definitely an option. I'll have to talk to everybody about that one
7) It seems a bit insulting to say it, but I'm not sure anybody else could control the group as well as I could. I don't think he'd be interested in trying to DM anyway
8) I'm not entirely sure if he's got past this stage now, after the evil campaign. He still plays quiet and unassuming, but he's more active. My next campaign is doing away with alignments anyway, and I'm going to base the emphasis on more interesting personalities
9) Like I said, probably the last adventure in a while (or ever), so this wouldn't work so well
10) Not an option when he's the only host we have for our games :smalltongue: Nah, seriously, he's too good a friend of everyone in the group to just drop him, especially for the last one

Just so it doesn't seem like I'm shooting down every idea, here's the one's I've found most appealing so far (including my takes on them): Everybody has to multiclass; everybody has to be a specific (or non-human) race; show him the archivist; run a game with NPC classes or, as a last resort, have everybody switch characters

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have plenty to try now, most of which I hadn't thought about before. If anyone has any more, feel free to give them :smallsmile:

Kayeich
2007-06-15, 11:41 AM
I was thinking of mentioning the Archivist class when I started reading, though I see it's already been mentioned.

Honestly however, if he's not changing -anything-, it sounds to me like he's just lazy/busy and doesn't want to worry about working around what works for him or different game mechanics than what he's already learned for the wizard. If you offer him the archivist and he refuses, I'm pretty certain that's what happens.

And if that's the case nothing you try to suggest will change anything, just let him have his fun and have your own. If it really bothered you that much, you'd be threatening to kick him out of the group, and it doesn't sound like you want that at all.

Instead maybe just run a campaign where all the players are full casters. It just sounds like all the others might be more willing to do this. It's sometimes just easier to show someone that they're wrong about a class being absolutely better than to tell them. Plus, if there's footstepping issues if someone wants to play a wizard besides him, just note what spells of which class that guy's more likely to use, and have the other player specialize in another class and prohibit that one.

If you get the spell list from Crystal Keep website, there's plenty of spell options if the other players don't want to specialize that they still may not need to use spells your usual wizard uses. Plus, since he's set on his ways, he won't be asking if he can copy those spells, will he? And if he's not that set, if he likes what he's seeing from other players, well, maybe you will get to see him branch out. Which is part of what you want anyway.

RandomNPC
2007-06-15, 03:33 PM
That's a fun idea, and he wouldn't get too mad, I suppose. But that's a last minute last resort

I wouldn't want to play with a group that killed my character while I wasn't even there

I don't like to kill the PCs. The last time a PC died the campaign came to a halt, as nobody really knew what to do next. That, and it's cruel, especially at low levels



1: i haven't done it yet but my players know its coming some day.

2: i don't like it either, and i had no part in what they did (i give way to much freedom sometimes) but as much as i didn't take part i also was not against what happened. I didn't know he was being told to come back as something else entirely, but the way he played i was tempted to tell him the group was a little to big and i would bring him back when someone left. (i know... dishonnest) he was my most memerable bad player.

3: my gamers accept the game as a tactical combat scene anytime there is combat, you don't just rush in and hit things, you go in and take out the heavy hitters first, so you take less dammage from the little guys while you clean up. thinking like this the wizard should be the target every game, whats a level 8 fireball got on a greatsword?

i started to rant there, but what im tryin to say is: i don't like killing a PC but it happens. if you stand out as powerfull you're more likely a target. im not saying go out there and kill the wizard right out, but like someone said, a dark sun game where wizards are feared, he's a robe wearing individual who's quiet and keeps back a step or two... he must be someone with someting to hide.


anyway, thanks for the thoughts on my sugestions, i know people read my posts but i sometimes feel like i was skipped over. and if i managed to be of any help, then um.... yeay!

TheLogman
2007-06-15, 05:18 PM
If you didn't like the previous suggestion I made, here are a few others:

1. Changing the Skill set and casting ability of the Wizard. Maybe he can't be smart and studious any more, his Dexterity and dancing ability now decide how he casts.

2. If he prefers the immense amount of versatility that his magic allows, give the rouge a ton of scrolls, and extra ranks in UMD. Now, the Rouge can do what he does, but all the time, without preparation, and has a good BAB, plus sneak attack, ect.

3. Give everyone else casting ability, to the point where they can channel a fireball through their sword or daggers, and now hes reduced to a buff monkey, since everyone else can already do attack magic.

4. Create feats that give certain bloodlines, and then bonuses to certain stuff for each one. Like the Fighter looks though your feats, and sees one that gives him a giant for an ancestor, sweet, +3 to Con and Str. (Or something a little less powerful, just an example) Someone else is somehow related to, or linked to a rust monster, now they can dissolve the enemys' weapons, or the enemies themselves, if they are made of metal. Pick out fun abilities and humanoids from the MM, and make them into feats that give specialized abilities or bonuses, but don't give out one that would make the Wizard smarter, or better at his studious casting. He has to pick one, and then at least he has some cool bonus or special ability that then at some point in the adventure will become crucial to the plot (hint hint)

5. He finds a cursed item that casts a permanent Tensor's Transformation on him, now he's a fighter, and probably a better one then the one you have right now. (Probably not what you're looking for, but it could be fun.)

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-15, 06:15 PM
You might also try an (Exalted) good campaign, one where all of the characters need to be Paladin-types and must really care about what's going on around them and righting the wrongs and all that fun stuff. It, like the evil campaign, may force a bit of variance in his style.

Jorkens
2007-06-15, 06:36 PM
Could you let him play the character he wants but then give each of the players a henchman or an apprentice or a retainer or something that you've cooked up to play in parallel? That way he still gets to play his character but also has to have a go (to a greater or a lesser extent) at playing an extrovert dwarven druid or something.

And yeah, as someone pointed out, there are probably lots of in-game ways of subtly encouraging him to bring a bit more to his roleplaying. "The previously undiscovered tribe of savages see your fireball spell and decide that you're an incarnation of their god. Now try sitting quietly at the back of the party..."