All-in-one-caster class for custom setting

[thedanster7000]

So basically, in our custom campaign world, healing "cleric" magic is learned in exactly the same way as other "wizard" spells, as are all spells.

The only 'pure' caster class (Sorceror, Warlock, Wizard) I'm allowing in the campaign is Wizard, as their method of study and the Int-based casting fits the mages in the setting. However, this leaves the players with Paladin as the only class with any healing magic.

Is there a way to allow Wizards Cleric (or all?) spells without them being OP?

I didn't just want to open up all spells to the wizard as I feel this could make them overpowered but, then again, it could make for interesting multiclassing options in this campaign, and more people would take wizard levels.

[gullveig]

This remember the Archivist class from 3.5...

[JumboWheat01]

Maybe bring back the good ol' "Prohibited School" thing for wizards. When they chose a focus, they have to give up two groups of spells. Say they choose Evocation, they would have to decide on two schools, like Enchanting and Illusion for example, that they simply cannot learn or cast. This should limit them somewhat.

[Drackolus]

I actually am working on a world that is somewhat similar, and this is the explanation I'm using; 'divine' magic is a school of magic developed completely independently from wizard magic, and focuses more on understanding magic and the nature of the universe as a whole (more right-brained) rather than a line of thinking that leads to specific outcomes (more left-brained). This makes it easier to create certain effects which rely on many different systems working in harmony - such as healing - easier while "wrench in the works" spells like Fireball more difficult. This is also why they use Wisdom, like a monk, rather than intelligence.

[thedanster7000]

Maybe bring back the good ol' "Prohibited School" thing for wizards. When they chose a focus, they have to give up two groups of spells. Say they choose Evocation, they would have to decide on two schools, like Enchanting and Illusion for example, that they simply cannot learn or cast. This should limit them somewhat.

Would specialising in a specific school restrict specific schools, or would the character just choose two schools they can't learn?

[JumboWheat01]

Would specialising in a specific school restrict specific schools, or would the character just choose two schools they can't learn?

That would be up to you, I think. You do want to limit them, so maybe you should draw up a chart showing what schools they can't use when they choose their specialization. If you want to let them have a bit more choice in the matter, you can as well.

[ZenBear]

This calls to mind an idea I have been playing with of consolidating all 5E classes into 3 core classes; Warrior, Scout and Mage. 1st level gives the essentials; Warriors get all armor and weapons with a Fighting Style, Scouts get light/medium armor with Expertise and Sneak Attack, and Mages get spell casting. 2nd level you pick your subclass; Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian/etc for Warrior, Rogue/Ranger/Monk/etc for Scout, Wizard/Cleric/Druid/etc for Mage.

1st level casting for Mages constitutes barebones spells and cantrips; Light, Eldritch Blast, Magic Missile, etc. Your subclass opens up access to spell lists and the various means of preparation.

Just throwing it out there. :smallbiggrin:

[thedanster7000]

That would be up to you, I think. You do want to limit them, so maybe you should draw up a chart showing what schools they can't use when they choose their specialization. If you want to let them have a bit more choice in the matter, you can as well.

Thanks, I'll probably restrict Evocation vs Necromancy, Divination vs Illusion, etc. to make casters more specialised (but still with potential for variety) and make Wizard multiclassing more necessary in a party.

[Sigreid]

Since clerics get better weapons and armor presumably because their spells aren't as dangerous to the game, I don't see any reason why you can't just declare that all spells are wizard spells and call it good. Might even tune down the wizard in the party a little if he saves some of his capability for doing the cleric's duties. After all, each cleric or druid spell prepared is a wizard spell that isn't, etc.

[Douche]

Wouldn't that be, like, gimping the wizard?

If he wants to be a blaster but he's also forced to heal, he's not overpowered cuz he has to dedicate spell slots to both those things.

Or you could just say screw healing spells altogether and litter the world with healing potions.

[JAL_1138]

So basically, in our custom campaign world, healing "cleric" magic is learned in exactly the same way as other "wizard" spells, as are all spells.

The only 'pure' caster class (Sorceror, Warlock, Wizard) I'm allowing in the campaign is Wizard, as their method of study and the Int-based casting fits the mages in the setting. However, this leaves the players with Paladin as the only class with any healing magic.

Is there a way to allow Wizards Cleric (or all?) spells without them being OP?

I didn't just want to open up all spells to the wizard as I feel this could make them overpowered but, then again, it could make for interesting multiclassing options in this campaign, and more people would take wizard levels.

Bards don't fit this? They kind of already do what you're looking for. Just refluff them away from being music/performance-based and you've got sorcerers that can heal. They're not wizards, and are (currently) Cha-based instead of Int-based (could be changed without being disastrous, I think), but they're arcane casters who are balanced to be able to heal and can pick up some blasty spells (or any other kind of spells) eventually.

[eastmabl]

I like what Beyond the Wall does with spellcasters - if you're the "wizard" class, you can cast any spell. However, your spellcasting stat for the spell is either Intelligence or Wisdom, depending upon whether it's a wizard-like spell or a cleric/druid spell.

I'd do the following in 5e:

1. Use the Sorcerer chassis. Limiting the number of spells known makes this reasonable. Sorcery points, metamagic and extra cantrips should help offset the loss of the ability to know every wizard spell.

2. The wizard still requires a spell book to write down and recite his spells each day, but he cannot scribe additional spells beyond what is allotted by class.

3. You can only learn wizard cantrips.

4. The caster can know any spell on any list other than the spells unique to the paladin/ranger lists.

5. For a spell on the wizard list, your casting stat is Int. For spells only on the cleric/druid lists, your casting stat is Wis. For spells only on the bard/warlock lists, your casting stat is Cha.

Here is your generic spellcasting class. You can cast off any list, but you're almost assuredly less proficient when you go outside your main casting stat.

[thedanster7000]

Bards don't fit this? They kind of already do what you're looking for. Just refluff them away from being music/performance-based and you've got sorcerers that can heal. They're not wizards, and are (currently) Cha-based instead of Int-based (could be changed without being disastrous, I think), but they're arcane casters who are balanced to be able to heal and can pick up some blasty spells (or any other kind of spells) eventually.

I'm going to have Bards in the world as well, using Charisma for spells just because they're awesome; they won't be THAT powerful in their magic, especially since they'll still be restricted to their normal spell list.

[thedanster7000]

I like what Beyond the Wall does with spellcasters - if you're the "wizard" class, you can cast any spell. However, your spellcasting stat for the spell is either Intelligence or Wisdom, depending upon whether it's a wizard-like spell or a cleric/druid spell.

I'd do the following in 5e:

1. Use the Sorcerer chassis. Limiting the number of spells known makes this reasonable. Sorcery points, metamagic and extra cantrips should help offset the loss of the ability to know every wizard spell.

2. The wizard still requires a spell book to write down and recite his spells each day, but he cannot scribe additional spells beyond what is allotted by class.

3. You can only learn wizard cantrips.

4. The caster can know any spell on any list other than the spells unique to the paladin/ranger lists.

5. For a spell on the wizard list, your casting stat is Int. For spells only on the cleric/druid lists, your casting stat is Wis. For spells only on the bard/warlock lists, your casting stat is Cha.

Here is your generic spellcasting class. You can cast off any list, but you're almost assuredly less proficient when you go outside your main casting stat.

I was trying to make sure Int was the only spellcasting ability because of the nature of the magic in our custom world (apart from Bards; Bards are fun and not powerful enough in their magic to rival the all-spells Wizards).

[thedanster7000]

I think I'm going to disallow Druids, Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warlocks, open up all spells to Wizards, and use the specialist Wizard rules from AD&D2 (basically disallows use of spells from their opposite Wizard school, they get extra spells of their chosen school, and they get small bonuses when casting from their chosen school).

[ZenBear]

Let us know how it works out!

[Kane0]

How about this:
- Wizards can learn and cast from any list (Using INT as his casting stat), adding them to his spellbook as usual.
- At level 1 a wizard selects 4 schools available to him (call it proficiency?) and 4 schools that he cannot use
- A wizard cannot specialize in a school he is not 'proficient' in at level 2
- A wizard can spend an ASI to become 'proficient' in a school and thus become able to use it
- Optionally, the DM can choose to enforce opposed spell schools. Wizards proficient in certain schools are unable to become proficient in the opposed school.

Example Opposed schools:
Abjuration - opposed by conjuration
Conjuration - opposed by transmutation
Divination - opposed by illusion
Enchantment - opposed by illusion
Evocation - opposed by conjuration
Illusion - opposed by enchantment
Necromancy - opposed by divination
Transmutation - opposed by conjuration

[thedanster7000]

How about this:
- Wizards can learn and cast from any list (Using INT as his casting stat), adding them to his spellbook as usual.
- At level 1 a wizard selects 4 schools available to him (call it proficiency?) and 4 schools that he cannot use
- A wizard cannot specialize in a school he is not 'proficient' in at level 2
- A wizard can spend an ASI to become 'proficient' in a school and thus become able to use it
- Optionally, the DM can choose to enforce opposed spell schools. Wizards proficient in certain schools are unable to become proficient in the opposed school.

Example Opposed schools:
Abjuration - opposed by conjuration
Conjuration - opposed by transmutation
Divination - opposed by illusion
Enchantment - opposed by illusion
Evocation - opposed by conjuration
Illusion - opposed by enchantment
Necromancy - opposed by divination
Transmutation - opposed by conjuration

That's a really good idea, I might use that actually.
But, if you block opposite schools and you start with 4, there wouldn't be much opportunity for buying school proficiencies would there?

[ZenBear]

How about this:
- Wizards can learn and cast from any list (Using INT as his casting stat), adding them to his spellbook as usual.
- At level 1 a wizard selects 4 schools available to him (call it proficiency?) and 4 schools that he cannot use
- A wizard cannot specialize in a school he is not 'proficient' in at level 2
- A wizard can spend an ASI to become 'proficient' in a school and thus become able to use it
- Optionally, the DM can choose to enforce opposed spell schools. Wizards proficient in certain schools are unable to become proficient in the opposed school.

Example Opposed schools:
Abjuration - opposed by conjuration
Conjuration - opposed by transmutation
Divination - opposed by illusion
Enchantment - opposed by illusion
Evocation - opposed by conjuration
Illusion - opposed by enchantment
Necromancy - opposed by divination
Transmutation - opposed by conjuration

If I choose Conjuration and Illusion the only other school I can pick is Necromancy. Why the hate on Conj? lol

[thedanster7000]

I know that there are official opposed schools, so I'll use those. I think I'll allow Wizards to pick 4 schools, one of which is their 'Speciality' or whatever that they'll get bonuses to when casting its spells. They can spend ASIs to buy use of other schools but CAN'T buy use of their Speciality's opposed school.

[Kane0]

That's a really good idea, I might use that actually.
But, if you block opposite schools and you start with 4, there wouldn't be much opportunity for buying school proficiencies would there?

Depends on what you choose blocks what, opposed doesn't have to mean opposite. For example Evocation and Necromancy are never blocked above.
Alternatively, only block the opposed school(s) of the school specialized in. Two is a good number.


If I choose Conjuration and Illusion the only other school I can pick is Necromancy. Why the hate on Conj? lol

That was actually copy-pasted from 3.0/NWN. Conjuration was pretty potent so I guess this was a small measure of balancing against that.

[Townopolis]

If you feel up to it, and if it won't send your players into a riot, you could also just handle balance manually.

Which is to say rule that

Wizards do not get 2 free spells every time they level up
Wizards can scribe any spell they find a "suitable reference."


Then you can decide that, well, the party needs some healing, so they'll find a way to scribe down Cure Wounds, but you'll go ahead and avoid giving them any sources of Aura of Vigor because you think that would be OP. You can do this with pretty much all the prime cherry-picking targets while still letting casters achieve greater flexibility by being able to heal or blast or just Faerie Fire everything.

And, as things progress, you can suss out whether or not the wizard(s) need to be reined in further or are in need of a boost in the form of a bunch of potent new options.

The big issue with this approach is, of course, that it requires much work mid-game and eternal vigilance.

[thedanster7000]

If you feel up to it, and if it won't send your players into a riot, you could also just handle balance manually.

Which is to say rule that

Wizards do not get 2 free spells every time they level up
Wizards can scribe any spell they find a "suitable reference."


Then you can decide that, well, the party needs some healing, so they'll find a way to scribe down Cure Wounds, but you'll go ahead and avoid giving them any sources of Aura of Vigor because you think that would be OP. You can do this with pretty much all the prime cherry-picking targets while still letting casters achieve greater flexibility by being able to heal or blast or just Faerie Fire everything.

And, as things progress, you can suss out whether or not the wizard(s) need to be reined in further or are in need of a boost in the form of a bunch of potent new options.

The big issue with this approach is, of course, that it requires much work mid-game and eternal vigilance.

We're playing a sandbox game, so they might go through a fair few encounters between rests. At the moment, it looks like we only have 1 wizard anyway so he'll have his hands full, attempting to take on the responsibility of the only caster AND healer (besides our paladin). I think that if wizards are overpowered like this (which I don't think they are tbh because of the multiple roles they have to fill), the drain on resources of the sandbox-style game will balance it out so that allowing him to choose his own spells as normal won't make him too powerful.

[darkrose50]

I was thinking about mostly only having Wizards as spell-casters. Non-Wizard spells would be secrets of certain orders. In order to get one, you would just about need to be a member, or figure out there secret codes and have access to a spell book.

[thedanster7000]

I've decided on how it will work now. I'm banning Sorcerers/Warlocks but allowing Clerics/Paladins/Rangers/Bards on the basis that although their magic is founded on the same basis as wizards', they learn it through prayer or song etc. so their skill with the SAME ability is founded upon a different attribute.

I'm also adding Mages, identical to Wizards, except that they pick 4 schools at Level 1, one of which is their chosen school and can learn spells from any of those schools except those opposing their chosen school. They can spend ASIs to learn more schools (but not opposing ones).

Opposing schools:
Chosen - Opposed
Abjuration - Transmutation, Illusion
Conjuration - Divination, Illusion
Divination - Conjuration
Enchantment - Evocation, Necromancy
Illusion - Necromancy, Evocation
Evocation - Enchantment, Conjuration
Necromancy - Illusion, Enchantment
Transmutation - Abjuration, Necromancy

[ZenBear]

Just to nitpick:

If I choose Evocation, Abjuration, Divination and Necromancy, I am now barred from all other schools and thus can't use an ASI to learn any more. I might be mistaken but I don't think there is any combination of four schools that doesn't bar all the rest.

[Cybren]

Honestly if I wanted a single all in one caster class I'd use the sorcerer and just make all spells sorcerer spells. I'd probably give them a few extra spells known, maybe through feats, subclasses, or even knowstones. Switching them to int isn't much of a change. They're the most "straight forward", and you can design all the subclasses to specialize in areas other than school. All the school proficiency/specialization/etc stuff seems a bit much for wizards.

If you're going the mono-wizards route, I'd just let them be wizards. You can introduce via scrolls the spells the party seems to "need" without having to explicitly open up their spell list.

[thedanster7000]

Just to nitpick:

If I choose Evocation, Abjuration, Divination and Necromancy, I am now barred from all other schools and thus can't use an ASI to learn any more. I might be mistaken but I don't think there is any combination of four schools that doesn't bar all the rest.

You are only barred from the opponents of a SINGLE chosen school, the others are just those you can use, wheras you get all the usual Wizard bonuses for your chosen school.

[thedanster7000]

Honestly if I wanted a single all in one caster class I'd use the sorcerer and just make all spells sorcerer spells. I'd probably give them a few extra spells known, maybe through feats, subclasses, or even knowstones. Switching them to int isn't much of a change. They're the most "straight forward", and you can design all the subclasses to specialize in areas other than school. All the school proficiency/specialization/etc stuff seems a bit much for wizards.

If you're going the mono-wizards route, I'd just let them be wizards. You can introduce via scrolls the spells the party seems to "need" without having to explicitly open up their spell list.

We're not creating this to fit the purpose of an all-in-one caster per-say, it's more that it fits the campaign setting, as this kind of Jack-of-all-Trades caster exists in the style of a Wizard, but with access to healing spells etc. so I'm trying to balance it.

[Cybren]

We're not creating this to fit the purpose of an all-in-one caster per-say, it's more that it fits the campaign setting, as this kind of Jack-of-all-Trades caster exists in the style of a Wizard, but with access to healing spells etc. so I'm trying to balance it.

You don't NEED to balance it though. In a world absent of clerics, there's nothing unbalanced about having wizards learn healing magic. You're not stepping on anyones toes

[thedanster7000]

You don't NEED to balance it though. In a world absent of clerics, there's nothing unbalanced about having wizards learn healing magic. You're not stepping on anyones toes

Perhaps I failed to mention this but we decided the world DOES have clerics as well as these mages but clerics aren't open to the PCs as their first character in the world (if they die, they might get a cleric character). Also, the balancing isn't just against clerics, it's against all casters and, beyond that, all classes.