[WIP] CHARACTER SELECT: A guide to class selection (PFS friendly!)

[Secret Wizard]

Hey, everyone! I'm in the process of making a guide for newbies who want to learn a bit more about each class, without delving that much into complicated optimization discussion.

CHARACTER SELECT: A guide to class selection
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndw7Dw2ehjGwyfBLprQZ8kxyzKJiwreLeYvkHWclZUA/edit?usp=sharing)

It's a pretty massive effort, I'd say, so it's still a WIP.

Trying to make it as PFS friendly as possible.

I'd appreciate input of any kind!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

This looks pretty interesting. I would deal with 'alchemical' as a casting source slightly differently; technically, its arcane, since they use arcane spell trigger devices, and they can copy from arcane spellbooks.

[Secret Wizard]

I think that's related to being a "Learned Prepared" class, as I call it, rather than being an Arcane class.

For example, Paizo could release some sort of Learned Prepared class that's a Psychic - some sort of Tattoo Caster or whatever that needs a Tattoo inscribed on his skin to use a spell - and it would be able to learn spells from scrolls all the same.

Arcane is more of a modality - requiring S/M/F, concentration and suffering ASF - whereas the Alchemical modality does not have any of those mechanics.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

You're ignoring that, for the purposes of spell trigger items, the alchemist list is arcane. For example, come upon a divine wand of CLW and he can't use it (that rule isn't used in Society, but w/e). Arcane one and you're good. Also, you might want to use more of the game's terminology, and link them together. Divine casters always have their full list available, unless they are spontaneous. Psychic casters are always spontaneous.

Also, while it does peeve me you're focusing on the unchained barbarian, I can sort of see your point. The vanilla barbarian doesn't have to rage cycle to be effective, though; you said yourself, you ignore cheese like that anyway.

[Secret Wizard]

Good point on wands - added!

Regarding the Unchained Barb - I knew it would peeve people off. But I didn't want to talk about a Schrödinger class that was two classes at the time - and repeat the process with the Monk and Summoner. Call it an executive decision more than a statement :P

[Spore]

If it is aimed at people who played D&D before it is very okay. If it is aimed at people who never played a d20 system before, your guide is kind of overwhelming.

[stack]

You're ignoring that, for the purposes of spell trigger items, the alchemist list is arcane. For example, come upon a divine wand of CLW and he can't use it (that rule isn't used in Society, but w/e). Arcane one and you're good. Also, you might want to use more of the game's terminology, and link them together. Divine casters always have their full list available, unless they are spontaneous. Psychic casters are always spontaneous.

Also, while it does peeve me you're focusing on the unchained barbarian, I can sort of see your point. The vanilla barbarian doesn't have to rage cycle to be effective, though; you said yourself, you ignore cheese like that anyway.

I don't see anything in the text describing spell trigger items requiring that arcane/divine/etc impacts activation. "Anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell'

[Secret Wizard]

If it is aimed at people who played D&D before it is very okay. If it is aimed at people who never played a d20 system before, your guide is kind of overwhelming.

Yep, it's said in the introduction that it is not meant to teach people how to play, just how to pick a class and what things to look out for.

[Tuvarkz]

Antipaladin-Note: with Mithral Armor you can benefit from up to 16 DEX, or a whopping 26 if you are willing to go the Celestial Armor route. Additionally, you can always go for a Weapon Finesse build with the Antipaladin if you wish to.

[Secret Wizard]

Antipaladin-Note: with Mithral Armor you can benefit from up to 16 DEX, or a whopping 26 if you are willing to go the Celestial Armor route. Additionally, you can always go for a Weapon Finesse build with the Antipaladin if you wish to.

You can build with weapon finesse on any class. I don't see a particular reason to do it with an Antipally.

Economically, it's unnecessary to use mitral armor if you have 16 DEX, Tatami-do is better.

[Secret Wizard]

Druid added. Working on Fighter then going on a break, so if someone wants to tackle one of the remaining classes let me know.

Someone already called for Summoner and Magus though!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I might be able to do some work for magus.

[Kurald Galain]

Someone already called for Summoner and Magus though!

Yep, I'll post the Magus tomorrow.

[Secret Wizard]

Yep, I'll post the Magus tomorrow.


Hot diggity dog!

[Secret Wizard]

fighter up!

[Kurald Galain]

Hot diggity dog!

Here you go (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MCiAGt9uV24Wqw_ac_xRAUVdVlnUQ2Su6cIdeOMxP7s/edit?usp=sharing). Images still need replacing.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I wouldn't say that magus effectively has full BAB; they have high accuracy due to their abilities, but they are still stuck on the 3/4 BAB profile for feats. That's an important distinction.

[Kurald Galain]

I wouldn't say that magus effectively has full BAB; they have high accuracy due to their abilities, but they are still stuck on the 3/4 BAB profile for feats. That's an important distinction.

Depends. Are there any feats in particular for which this matters? (i.e. that are actually worth taking on a Magus before level 12, which is the cap for the sample builds)

Come to think of it, it may be a good idea for the guide to add some detail on BAB and save ratings. For instance, a cleric has a better will save than a wizard does (because the cleric will max out wisdom and the wizard won't). Likewise, a barbarian's or fighter's accuracy is +24 over 20 levels, whereas a ranger's is only +20. Food for discussion?

[Secret Wizard]

Thanks, Kurald!!! I'll get to editing to get it similar to the other pages!

One thing that I love that you made is a spell selection list for each build -- but I haven't done that for the rest of the builds I proposed so I'm gonna have to erase it or otherwise people will expect me to put that much work for the rest of the articles XU

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Depends. Are there any feats in particular for which this matters? (i.e. that are actually worth taking on a Magus before level 12, which is the cap for the sample builds)

Come to think of it, it may be a good idea for the guide to add some detail on BAB and save ratings. For instance, a cleric has a better will save than a wizard does (because the cleric will max out wisdom and the wizard won't). Likewise, a barbarian's or fighter's accuracy is +24 over 20 levels, whereas a ranger's is only +20. Food for discussion?

Whip Mastery, Lunge... Base Attack Bonus is Base Attack Bonus. Nothing else. Some classes have ways of boosting accuracy, and I would mention that, but magus remains a 3/4 BAB class, and I think it should be accurately presented. You can do the little asterisk thing and say with arcane pool they can equal a normal fighter, but it remains the same either way.

[Secret Wizard]

Magus added!

As a note though, I had to change a lot of stuff in Kurald's submission due to editorial decisions of this guide. For example, the class DOES have 3/4 BAB, and it's a fact for feats, HD (which is 1d8) and so on. It's compensated but not eliminated. If I was doing Monk, I would make it 3/4* BAB, sure, because Flurry matters so much, but thankfully I'm only doing Unchained.

Another set of things I had to change was PFS compatibility of lots of stuff and trying to make it less brutally optimized in certain aspects. The idea of the build is to let players learn to optimize, but not have to squeeze every corner.

[Kurald Galain]

Another set of things I had to change was PFS compatibility of lots of stuff and trying to make it less brutally optimized in certain aspects. The idea of the build is to let players learn to optimize, but not have to squeeze every corner.

That's funny considering I've had complaints that the builds in my Magus guide weren't optimized enough :smallbiggrin:


(edit) wait. If your aim is to give advice to beginners, then Spell Recall and Knowledge Pool aren't important features of the Magus (indeed, spell recall is something you should generally avoid using, and knowledge pool doesn't do all that much). Also, Combat Concentration is not so much "a pain in the butt" as something "generally avoided with 5' steps". And "Reliance on a small number of spells to maximize Spellstrike" really isn't true, there are a lot of spells you can use it with, and then there's Spell Blending.
While weapon finesse is worth mentioning, this should be combined with Dervish Dance. I'm really not sure why you would advice people to use Elemental Shape, as it doesn't come online until level ten and you have much easier accuracy buffs available. Finally, Force Hook Charge is fun in concept, but the lower-level spell Bladed Dash does it better.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Going to have to agree with both sides here. Magus is one of the classes uniquely torn between a strength build and Dex build; unlike say, a bard or other 2/3 caster, the magus gets heavier armor proficiency over their career. Also, it's worth mentioning that magus is by default the only class that can cast arcane magic in fullplate.

However, I do think that Kurald rates spell recall too low. It extends your spells per day considerably. You're not as screwed if you botch your dispel magic roll, more uses of your lower-level damaging spells, an extra casting of your favorite buff spell... And, in a position where you don't necessarily know who your teammates will be (such as PFS), Knowledge Pool can be a godsend.

[Kurald Galain]

However, I do think that Kurald rates spell recall too low. It extends your spells per day considerably.
The reason is that pearls of power are much cheaper than pool points. Note that improved spell recall (half price and you can grab any spell) is great, but it appears at a higher level than the guide caters to.

Also, buying spells for your spellbook is extremely cheap. For example, aside from the six level three spells you get for free, they're 90 gold pieces each, which is pocket change for a level 7 character.

It's not that it's a bad ability, it's that if you try to help novice players by listing the foremost abilities of the class, this just isn't all that impressive (as opposed to noting it's one of the most mobile classes in the game, or has a very high damage potential, or things like that).

[Secret Wizard]

Dunno, my opinions are based on my experiences etc. I think Spell Recall is quite useful, but it's just about the pacing i'm used to on adventures I guess.

By the way,

PALADIN AND ROGUE UP

Got some volunteers for Inquisitor, Swashbuckler, Gunslinger, Shaman, Skald and Hunter, but still need help for the rest!