Is An Arcana Check The Equivalent Of Detect Magic? LMoP Thinks So.

[Quasikaze]

"Any character proficient in Arcana can sense a subtle aura of magic in this cavern. (A detect magic spell reveals the same.) The aura become stronger as one approaches the northern building (area 15)" - Lost Mines of Phandelver, Page 47


"Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symnols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes." - Player's Handbook, Page 177

Most everyone has come to the agreement that an Arcana check gives lore and information about already detected magic or visible things. As you can see, LMoP seems to think magic can be detected with an Arcana check. Maybe this has already been addressed and if so, please post a link. It somewhat changes the game on Arcana checks, if the LMoP ruling holds true. If so, then I could see it detecting strong magical auras, but nothing subtle since that would negate the whole spell. That would contradict the LMoP ruling, though, since it specifically says "...can sense a subtle aura of magic..." Since the Detect Magic spell would detect the same amount of magic and no more, then that would put them at equals, negating the Detect Magic spell. Ugh. Both books were published in 2014, but the PHB specifically say "August 2014". Maybe one could find the month LMoP was published and use that to make a ruling? I would think that maybe the PHB overrides LMoP since it IS the handbook, afterall. I'm curious as to what you guys think. I see only a few options.


Get rid of the Detect Magic spell and ALLOW Arcana checks detect magic (Going against the current meta)
Ignore what LMoP says and DON'T allow Arcana checks detect magic (Going against LMoP)
Keep the Detect Magic spell and only allow Arcana checks to detect strong auras (Going against both LMoP & the current meta)

[hymer]

Maybe think of it like this:

"Any character [insert X her] can sense a subtle aura of magic in this cavern. (A detect magic spell reveals the same.) The aura become stronger as one approaches the northern building (area 15)"

X could be 'with elven blood', 'with red hair', 'with the ability to cast spells', etc.

It's not a rule about X. It's just how that particular aura of magic works.

[gullveig]

This is an exception for the cave and the building. Something like:

Only allow an Intelligence (Arcana) check to perceive the magic nature of that specific cave and building.

And if you need an explanation, I would say that "the magic stored there is so obvious that you don't need spells to detect it."

Also, the Starter Set came before the Player's Handbook...

[Ninja_Prawn]

This is an exception for the cave and the building. Something like:

Only allow an Intelligence (Arcana) check to perceive the magic nature of that specific cave and building.

And if you need an explanation, I would say that "the magic stored there is so obvious that you don't need spells to detect it."

Also, the Starter Set came before the Player's Handbook...

Seems like a good, common sense answer. The LMoP 'ruling' is not something I'd be willing to implement elsewhere.

[Quasikaze]

Sounds good. Thanks guys!

[Gwendol]

Also, I suggest the PHB be the primary source for rules relating to skills, feats, class abilities, and spells.

[eastmabl]

As a DM, sometimes I will allow Arcana to serve in the place of detect magic in very limited circumstances - where magic permeates the air and even the mundies stand a chance at realizing that there's magic afoot.

They don't get past "magic." No school of magic, no knowledge of where it specifically is, and no hints about what the magic might do. That's what detect magic is for.

[Hudsonian]

I like telling my rogue that the door he just arcana checked gives him the creepy crawlies then letting him be like, "Yo Harry! A little help please?"

[DragonBaneDM]

I've actually gone against the PHB rules a number of time in my Eberron campaign.

No one's ever gotten specifics about schools and the like, but I've used Arcana to allow them to understand the qualities of magic items and understand the end result of rituals. Perhaps my most blatant rules violation was letting the Rogue and Warlock (who are trained in Arcana) tap into the magic of the Feywild to kill 1/8th CR faeries as a bonus action.

I kind of run a "skills matter" type game where I completely throw skill rules out the window to let the party interact with terrain and during Paragon Monster fights. I do this to give each boss-fight its own different mechanics. Like letting people make Athletics checks to climb up mushrooms at normal move speed or using Intimidate to effectively "draw aggro" from a warforged juggernaut.

I'm not saying I'm right! I'm totally in the wrong, but these houserules have made the game fun for us. The party knows that my boss mechanics are different from everyday "real" world mechanics, though, so I'm a fan of the "it only works in the cave" type deal. Exceptions are fun!

[Daishain]

I've always let Arcana checks apply to any case where the magic and/or its source is observable, with detect magic showing details of more subtle magics that would normally not be possible to observe.

So yeah, someone trained in the ways of magic might be able to detect a particularly strong aura without a spell, but chances are that the spell would be required to glean information about the nature of the aura.

[Hudsonian]

So yeah, someone trained in the ways of magic might be able to detect a particularly strong aura without a spell, but chances are that the spell would be required to glean information about the nature of the aura.

I also pretty much don't allow random arcana checks unless something natural has indicated that maybe there is something going on. Also, I have houseruled that you must be proficient with Arcana to discover even a hint of magic with an arcana check. (even if you're a wizard Harry)

[Joe the Rat]

This is an exception for the cave and the building. Something like:

Only allow an Intelligence (Arcana) check to perceive the magic nature of that specific cave and building.

And if you need an explanation, I would say that "the magic stored there is so obvious that you don't need spells to detect it."

Also, the Starter Set came before the Player's Handbook...Yeah, I'd use this explanation for the grander scale.

I have occasionally used Arcana to let characters recognize the signs of magic: specific markings on objects, the common appearance of certain potions, the types of twitches someone under an enchantment may exhibit, the smell of burnt sulphur and bat guano. This doesn't tell them there is magic, or what it is (concentrating to determine schools), just that something might be here (warrants detection).

[Hudsonian]

snip.

This is what I was going for. Way to go Joe.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

In 4e Arcana pretty much worked as a detect magic and it didn't break or hurt anything.

And really, now that detect magic is a ritual, why even have it as a spell?

Just use the ritual rule for detect magic (or any other ritual) with skill checks.

The check would be Intelligence (Arcana) DC 15 for a first level spell. Yeah kinda high, especially for low levels. Well if you would normally have access to the detect magic as a ritual spell it is DC 10.

A first level Int (3) ritual caster only needs a 5 on a d20 roll in order to do this. They still need to concentrate and everything but you took a fiddly spell out of the game.

The higher level the ritual the higher the check, but if you would have access to it anyways the check difficulty is lowered (as determined by DM).

I wouldn't suggest you do this for every spell, just ritual spells. If you are a ritual caster and could normally have the spell then no need to prepare it.

From what I've seen is that a lot of these rituals were usually prepared relatively and not proactively. On a day to day basis a lot of ritual spells weren't chosen and only after they needed them would people pick them up. Even in AL with new players.

So in a way this makes the game less fiddly as you don't have to take that extra long rest in order to reprepare you spells. Also, when trained, a basic ability to sense magic is somewhat of a normal thing in stories and games.

To do this with casters you pick their spellcasting ability score. Then have them make a Arcana, Religion, or Nature check based on the ritual being used.

Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma

Arcana, Nature, or Religion

Sorcerer with the ritual caster feat and took druid spells? Charisma (Nature) check.

[Temperjoke]

In 4e Arcana pretty much worked as a detect magic and it didn't break or hurt anything.

And really, now that detect magic is a ritual, why even have it as a spell?



Speed, casting as a ritual takes a lot longer than casting a spell normally, so if you're waiting for the caster to finish the ritual, you could be interrupted by more bad guys.


As to the original topic, it could be that they meant to imply that there was so much magic in the air, anyone could guess that it was present in the room, they just worded it poorly. Sort of how you can go into a room that someone sprayed a ton of perfume in, you know that perfume was used, but you've got no idea what brand or where in the room it originated from without doing a more thorough check.

[Tanarii]

Generally speaking, I consider the specifics of an adventure's use of spells or skills to either be specific to that adventure, or even to the one use specified in the scene where it's described.


but you took a fiddly spell out of the game.That's only an advantage in certain play styles.

[gfishfunk]

I regularly frustrate players when they Arcana check things to see if they are magic because I treat it as a lore check.

I will give indicators that tend to tell the character that qualities are consistent with magic, or tell them that 'the surface appears less corroded than the areas around it' or something.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Speed, casting as a ritual takes a lot longer than casting a spell normally, so if you're waiting for the caster to finish the ritual, you could be interrupted by more bad guys.


As to the original topic, it could be that they meant to imply that there was so much magic in the air, anyone could guess that it was present in the room, they just worded it poorly. Sort of how you can go into a room that someone sprayed a ton of perfume in, you know that perfume was used, but you've got no idea what brand or where in the room it originated from without doing a more thorough check.

Yeah, casting it via a Arcana check or whatever takes the full time as if you was casting it as a ritual.

I may not have mentioned that as I hadn't had my coffee and breakfast yet.

So to cast Detect Magic, as a ritual, you wouldn't need to spell prepared, just need to be able to cast it (proper level and class) as a ritual. You then can spend your 10 minutes doing it with an Arcana check at the end.

You can keep the actual spell in the game, the action version, but the ritual version no longer exists at its current form. The ritual version is just a skill check.

Same thing with other rituals.



That's only an advantage in certain play styles.

Removing fiddly-ness is always a good thing.

You can still have complexity and flexibility, just get rid of things that are straight up troublesome or hold back role-playing/progression. People should be able to fall forward more times than not.

And, what's cool about this, is that generally speaking the players will want detect magic, not need detect magic. Of you as a DM want to make them *need* detect magic you could cause a scenario to be present where they can't use the ritual.

A room is filled with *trap holes/fungi/magic* that pushes a chemical into the room and players need to cast Detect Magic fast or they will lose concentration. Have a scaling DC, 10 (or 15) con check +1/min you are in the room. The ritual just won't work and they need to quest for the spell, prepare the spell, or find an item that uses the spell.

Taking away the fiddly makes it special when the DM adds the fiddly and not just another boring or cliche time that fiddly is happening.

[Tanarii]

Removing fiddly-ness is always a good thing.No it's not. YOU may prefer it. But that doesn't mean it's always a good thing for all styles of play and all players.

Edit: Besides, even saying that rituals are fiddly in the first place is a personal judgment call you've made.

[mephnick]

I probably wouldn't let it detect magic, but I don't care what anyone says, I still allow Arcana to spellcraft something being cast.

[Hudsonian]

So to cast Detect Magic, as a ritual, you wouldn't need to spell prepared, just need to be able to cast it (proper level and class) as a ritual. You then can spend your 10 minutes doing it with an Arcana check at the end.

Only the wizard can do that. Clerics, Druids, and rangers all have to have the spell prepared, I don't think Bards have Ritual Magic.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Only the wizard can do that. Clerics, Druids, and rangers all have to have the spell prepared, I don't think Bards have Ritual Magic.

Ritual Caster feat for anyone that isn't a ritual caster.

Bards, Clerics, and Druids can ritual cast their spells If it has the ritual tag and they have it prepared

However, I would make it where those spells aren't needed to be prepared, they are just features of the game.

[Sigreid]

I'm good with what they did. I see it as the difference between detecting normal magic, and being knowledgeable enough to know that that weird hair standing up on the back of your neck, tingly feeling is an area permeated with magic. Basically a special case.

[HarrisonF]

The DMG uses Arcana for detecting and dispelling magic traps, which implies this might work in general:



Any character can attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check to detect or disarm a magic trap, in addition to any other checks noted in the trap's description.