ScrewAttack Death Battle: Fair Or Bias

[Bartmanhomer]

Do you think that ScrewAttack Death Battle are fair or bias? In my opinion I believe all the fights that ScrewAttack made is fair. I don't think that there's any bias or unfairness behind it. What's your opinion on ScrewAttack Death Battle?

[erikun]

All ScrewAttack battles are going to have a massive bias.

Pretty much all of these internet "death battles" already have a bias, typically towards whoever has the most power/speed or resilience. It's just the format given. When you put two people in a boxing ring, the better boxer is going to win - even if the other person is "better" overall in comparison.

Probably the best way to handle these "death battles" is just to list and discuss the various benefits each character has, and what points it would be advantageous. You aren't likely to get a definitive answer, outside some obvious overpowered matchups, and so any "battle" result is going to depend a lot on the situation and what's happening in the narrative. A story where one character gets the jump on another might have a different ending than one where one character is defending a loved one from attack - and both results could be perfectly valid.

ScrewAttack isn't really wanting to have a "fair" comparison between the two. Rather, it wants something interesting for ten minutes followed by a definitive answer at the end. Sometime the results are rather silly: I remember one situation where Link won because "his shield is invulnerable and he can lift 15 tons". Other times, the outcome is rather obvious and it's just the back-and-forth fighting that's entertaining. And that's really the point: ScrewAttack is not about fair and much as being about entertaining. Most people are probably more interested in a short Youtube video showing off some fun moves rather than settling some sort of internet debate. I certainly know that I wouldn't care about most of the matchups otherwise.

Also, any reason that this isn't in the new Death Battle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473642-Death-Battle-II-I-don-t-THINK-Gara-got-robbed-I-KNOW-he-did) thread?

[Reddish Mage]

I think Deathbattle is about as fair as two guys pretending to be casually talking about fantasy character matchups can get.

There is real analysis of the strengths and weaknesses And the outcome typically turns on what they see as the most "critical" strength or weakness, preferably by measuring strength of strongest attack vs strongest defense by pretty solid numbers.

The two are very selective in what examples they pick and there isn't a consistent way of taking characters, some get only have the most "iconic" powers and abilities were others get everything. Such myopia can be individual bias, or simply a fact that some characters have been written with contradictory abilities and limits and they can only give so much effort per show.

I think the matches have a certain consistency about them however, and that setup: where the characters fight it out in a "no holds bar" straight up manner but are not allowed to eliminate their opponent until the end...is a format that itself leads itself to a "strongest attack vs strongest attack/defense/counter" ending.

It's one way to judge, and it's a pretty fair way for a lot of fighters...but it's certainly not the only way.

[Traab]

I think Deathbattle is about as fair as two guys pretending to be casually talking about fantasy character matchups can get.

There is real analysis of the strengths and weaknesses And the outcome typically turns on what they see as the most "critical" strength or weakness, preferably by measuring strength of strongest attack vs strongest defense by pretty solid numbers.

The two are very selective in what examples they pick and there isn't a consistent way of taking characters, some get only have the most "iconic" powers and abilities were others get everything. Such myopia can be individual bias, or simply a fact that some characters have been written with contradictory abilities and limits and they can only give so much effort per show.

I think the matches have a certain consistency about them however, and that setup: where the characters fight it out in a "no holds bar" straight up manner but are not allowed to eliminate their opponent until the end...is a format that itself leads itself to a "strongest attack vs strongest attack/defense/counter" ending.

It's one way to judge, and it's a pretty fair way for a lot of fighters...but it's certainly not the only way.

Pretty much this. Its impossible to be truly fair and unbiased when much of the material tends to have ridiculous parts attached to it. Like virtually any comic character. most have been around for so long that they all have SOMETHING absurd in their history that can be used as a gotcha moment either for or against. Like Beast versus Goliath where they showed Beast picking up a solid gold tree or something and estimated how strong he had to be to lift that. Or how in raiden versus wolverine they managed to dig through like 40 years worth of comics till they found one where a character with a similar sword was theoretically capable of getting through adamantium. But overall they are reasonablish with their decisions. They at least seem to try and figure out cold hard facts connected to feats. Things like, "He flew from here to here in x time, therefore going by the image we see he was moving at y miles per hour" Some times I think the bias shows, but lets be fair, everyone has preferences. Most of the time I dont much care who wins, I just want to see a good fight, but if you pick the right character, suddenly I become a lot more in favor of a specific winner and believe, true or not, that they deserve to win period.

[BWR]

My impression is that they generally try to be fair. I often don't know enough about the characters in question to know if the information they present is accurate, cherry picked or even outright fabricated, so I have to base it on what they present and their reasoning behind their choices. Sometimes I have questioned and disagreed with their conclusions (e.g. Toph vs. Gaara - even what little they showed of Gaara seemed to indicate he should take it) but in general I agree with their conclusions. Not that I've made an extensive investigation of it, but most of the complaints I've seen about the DB series are butthurt fans whining about how the one they liked lost, not actual reasoned arguments.

[Kitten Champion]

It's not an issue of bias, I'm sure they have their own but that's rather a glib way of managing their business. Rather they're interested in generating buzz and views... and controversy can certainly achieve that 'round these parts.

So long as they don't go too far and lose credibility with their main subscription base, well, you can usually construct a reasoning for why either side would "actually" win and playing against the majorities' expectations is going to get you the most interest -- so tailor your analysis accordingly.

It really doesn't matter, unless we're all going to pretend they're conclusions are somehow binding, it comes down to just being yet another set of internet pedants pushing an argument... just with an occasionally interesting animation to go with it.

[Legato Endless]

Fair is a weird word to apply to a hypothetical scenario between two representatives of divergent narrative conceits. Even if they didn't have any bias, some of their conclusions will rely on arbitrary assumptions, like any crossover fight.

I do think the methodology of taking extreme outliers of a character's usual capabilities at face value sacrifices sense for consistency, but at least they apply the buff of unscientific writers to both sides.

Does it matter? The show is being overtly ironic when they declare they'll settle the debate once and for all. It's all just a thought experiment. Unless you're getting overly invested in a character winning it's not a big deal.

[Kato]

I'm shocked there haven't been a dozen people yet shouting "DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense" :smalltongue:

From how I see it... as with any (fictive) fight, it can always go either way and so far there have been few results I'd say I disagree with. And with most of them, I could see where they were coming from. It's not their fault if source materials contradict themselves, especially in things like comics... with a dozen different writers. What do you do about inconsistent story telling if you try to do something like that?

Although, most of all, 99% of Death battles have entertained me, which to me is the most important bit.

[erikun]

I'm shocked there haven't been a dozen people yet shouting "DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense" :smalltongue:
We still need three more episodes before we're fully powered up enough to make our reply. :smallwink:

[Anteros]

I don't know if "biased" is the right word. The nature of the medium means that some of the results are down to opinion no matter what. They certainly make puzzling decisions at times though, and their "research and analysis" is nowhere near as comprehensive as they pretend it is. I think the best way to watch the show is to just enjoy the CGI fights without caring about their opinion of who wins.

That said, I haven't had a lot of respect for them ever since they made that smear video piling onto another channel for daring to make a versus type video. As if they invented the concept or something. I actually couldn't find the video when I looked for it just now though so maybe they took it down.

[Dragonus45]

I think DB tries to be fair, it really does. They are just really bad at being fair. I think the biggest problem is what I like to call "Death Battle Math" where they take a scene mostly out of context and apply math to it that skews things way out of proportion. Also I think they have a habit of taking a fight that was already a win, like Greymon Vs Charizard, and making it far more one sided than it should really be. Also, Gaara got robbed. Straight up robbed, and no I will not let it go. Also Zelda kind of did too.

[Sith_Happens]

Kirby beat Kid Buu. Kirby. Beat Buu. As far as I'm concerned ScrewAttack successfully getting anyone to take the series seriously is the greatest practical joke on the Internet.

[Reddish Mage]

Kirby beat Kid Buu. Kirby. Beat Buu. As far as I'm concerned ScrewAttack successfully getting anyone to take the series seriously is the greatest practical joke on the Internet.

I was going to say that Dragonball fans were real whiners....but this one gives me great pause....and question what they could have chosen to look at even in a bias and selective fashion.


I mean....Kirby....really?

[Seppl]

I was going to say that Dragonball fans were real whiners....but this one gives me great pause....and question what they could have chosen to look at even in a bias and selective fashion.


I mean....Kirby....really?It was comic book physics vs. cartoon physics. While Dragon Ball at least tries to be somewhat consistent, the makers of Kirby will just let him do stuff for the laughs, even if it would require absolutely ridiculous strength and durability if taken seriously. That is of course cherry picking by the makers of Death Battle, as these stats are derived from singular events; jokes where the author just did not care about the implications. Whereas we as the audience think Kirby is weak because the average feats done by Kirby are nowhere near what Boo can do. But at least it is consistent among other Death Battles. They almost always take the maximum capabilities a character has shown, even if these stats come from obscure one-off showings. That is why joke-characters have such a good record on Death Battle. The more serious a work is, the less likely it is to find physics defying feats.

[Reddish Mage]

Also Kirby is VULNERABLE whereas Majin Buu is pretty close to indestructible.

Anyway, Death Battle is inconsistent about sometimes ignoring maximum capabilities due to obscurity or (for video game characters) "player preferences." They mention the Silver Age Superman to say specifically that he can't daisy-chain worlds in his match ups (not that he needs to, I think he's undefeated).

Cloud and Tifa didn't get any of the most powerful Materia and only the smattering of equipment. While Link got a full compliment. This is justified because Link gets his full compliment in every game while Cloud/Tifa's capabilities are wholly dependent on the players (unless they bring in the movies/OVAs). However, Link's abilities still differ each game....

[Fan]

Also Kirby is VULNERABLE whereas Majin Buu is pretty close to indestructible.

Anyway, Death Battle is inconsistent about sometimes ignoring maximum capabilities due to obscurity or (for video game characters) "player preferences." They mention the Silver Age Superman to say specifically that he can't daisy-chain worlds in his match ups (not that he needs to, I think he's undefeated).

Cloud and Tifa didn't get any of the most powerful Materia and only the smattering of equipment. While Link got a full compliment. This is justified because Link gets his full compliment in every game while Cloud/Tifa's capabilities are wholly dependent on the players (unless they bring in the movies/OVAs). However, Link's abilities still differ each game....

I'll be mentioning here that they gave Link equipment from multiple games (and thus multiple links), while ignoring the presence of the FF 7 inventory system which has items that replicate every single status effect, and in FF7 most of these status effects are permanent until dispelled meaning. 1 loco weed and Link is hitting himself 33% of the time, 1 war drums and he can't use any items at all same with spells, and 1 kiss of death kills him because there are no blanket status immunities in FF 7, a death will kill a player character as well as anything else so someone without magic protection will just have to deal with the potential for a 1 hit KO. Then we get into his non healing self buff items (Link changed shoes to buff himself several times throughout the fight so this is fair game) with Hero Drinks and Lunar + Light curtain for a 50% increase in durability from the curtains and a 132% increase in all combat abilities from a four stack of hero drinks. Speed drink for another 100% increase in speed, and a mirror to cast reflect on himself so that even if Link someone removes the war drums that are stopping him from doing anything but swinging wildly, any magic attacks he sends Cloud's way would be reflected. He can carry 99 of these, and again, they last until debuffed or in the case of Light / Lunar curtain they run out of time.

By the way, they ALSO forgot to include the materia that you literally cannot proceed through the game without grabbing, like Gravity (Which provides an automatic 75% life hit.) which blocks the path after you kill the boss in Cosmos Canyon, and Destruct (Which provides Debarrier, despell, and DEATH) which Sephiroth literally hits you in the stomach with. Meaning that yes, Cloud canon has them, and his canon weapon that he carries around also has more than enough materia slots to handle the extras.

This is also ignoring that he tanked shots from Diamond Weapon, and being in the Northern Crater during The Weapon's Awakening which is calc'd here. (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19475) and for references sake here's one that provides some more general calc's of stuff that happens in the game to give you a solid understanding that this isn't just a one off here (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19207)

This also applies to Tifa's death battle, as Yang wouldn't have been able to activate her special damage soaking ability while under the effects of war drums and punching herself during confusion would have created an odd infinite loop of gaining power and taking damage. The massive difference in speed emphasized in the above calc's, as well as durability (Tifa was on the deck of the highwind and was in fact knocked down by the explosion of the Weapon's Awakening.) means that not only would Yang have lost the drawn out battle of just trading punches, but that she'd have been in a really bad position to land any blows at all. There's also Dazers that inflict paralyze that would have been VERY useful here, but hey, it's okay to ignore Final Fantasy character's inventories but when it comes time for Strider Hiryu you better give him maxed out Medical for his versus with Ryu.

[Traab]

I agree, the FF7 matchups were really borked up. I mean, yeah, noone really expected them to give cloud some theorycrafted kotr quadra cast counter attack combo of insane damage and near unkillability, but they just went all the way in the opposite direction. The best part is, it was painfully obvious cloud only got the materia he did specifically so they could show link blocking or reflecting it. It honestly gave off a feeling that they were massive zelda fans overall and the entire battle was setup just to show how awesome link is. I didnt even get that strong of a reaction to the garra toph fight, I just think they were wrong there. Usually thats just how I feel when I disagree with the outcome, that they ignored something, or missed the implications or whatever, but that link/cloud fight? Yeah, it honestly gave off a feeling like they were in it to make cloud lose to link.

[Reddish Mage]

Funny, the only Deathbattle I've had a really strong adverse reaction to was the Batman/Darth Vader fight, and that was because the alternative ending that has Batman winning is just SO AWESOME, and the one with Darth Vader winning is very anti-climatic.

[Talakeal]

Funny, the only Deathbattle I've had a really strong adverse reaction to was the Batman/Darth Vader fight, and that was because the alternative ending that has Batman winning is just SO AWESOME, and the one with Darth Vader winning is very anti-climatic.

Batman... vs. Darth Vader...?

[BWR]

Batman... vs. Darth Vader...?

That's Superhero Beatdown, not DB.

[Anteros]

That's Superhero Beatdown, not DB.

I also believe they determine their result based on fan vote rather than "research" so it's harder to criticize their choices.

[Dragonus45]

I felt that the FF7 match ups were really the best way to work out what items the characters would have in a vacuum.

[Anteros]

I felt that the FF7 match ups were really the best way to work out what items the characters would have in a vacuum.

Maybe. But DB has a long history of taking characters at their absolute maximum potential when they want them to win. Superman hasn't been able to Daisy Chain planets for 20+ years now, and current Superman isn't even the same guy who did those things, but they still let him claim those feats.

The problem is that they aren't consistent. Sometimes they'll bend over backwards to make a character more powerful, and sometimes they'll nerf a character for no (or weak) reasons. You either have to take everyone at their peak power, or you have to pick more "realistic" versions of them. When you do both arbitrarily no one is going to take you seriously.

[Traab]

Maybe. But DB has a long history of taking characters at their absolute maximum potential when they want them to win. Superman hasn't been able to Daisy Chain planets for 20+ years now, and current Superman isn't even the same guy who did those things, but they still let him claim those feats.

The problem is that they aren't consistent. Sometimes they'll bend over backwards to make a character more powerful, and sometimes they'll nerf a character for no (or weak) reasons. You either have to take everyone at their peak power, or you have to pick more "realistic" versions of them. When you do both arbitrarily no one is going to take you seriously.

I thought they specifically discounted the planet chain pull and instead went with the more recent "benchpresses the weight of earth for three days straight" crud. And honestly, while I got the distinct impression they set the fight up a bit for superman to win, it was less out of bias and more out of "Seriously, look at their feats, the winner is as obvious as luke cage versus galactus" The first fight they grabbed various screen caps just to show their relative strength and speed, and superman was shown to be exponentially greater in every category barring possibly actual hand to hand combat skill. (Though they pointed out superman was not exactly a slouch there either) Then they threw in the "philosophy" later to explain why goku will never get strong enough to win.

[Fan]

I felt that the FF7 match ups were really the best way to work out what items the characters would have in a vacuum.

I disagree, other heroes with inventories were allowed to use them. Like Strider (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HFVFRpoDlc) , Like Batman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8K1m6SCRz4), like Megaman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbbhEgl95W4) .

I mean if you want to argue "In a vacuum" Link doesn't get to have the red ring which is straight up from a different game than Ocarina of Time and doesn't even fit into roughly the same timeline like Majora's Mask does. He also doesn't get the Pegasus Boots which are ALSO from a different game and used by a different incarnation of Link. I mean you don't need to get the hover boots to win the game, same with fire and ice arrows. There are several runs that don't even use glitches that get through the game without them.

Items are just a much a part of an FF 7 character's arsenal as anything else is, and given Strider ALSO never uses his inventory in the manga spin off we don't have the under used in other forms of media argument.

Though to be fair again, we'll be getting a redo of all those calc's anyways in the true remake for FF 7 coming up soon so a lot of these feats are probably going to double in scale if what they're doing in FF XV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_0OCZC8TVY) is any hint.

Though to be 100% fair as well on the issue of Megaman vs Astroboy they used Megaman's weakest incarnation. His Battle net incarnation can literally devour the entire universe with bug style. That's not an entertaining fight though so I see why they didn't use it.

[Reddish Mage]

That's Superhero Beatdown, not DB.

Oops that explains a lot...

[BWR]

I also believe they determine their result based on fan vote rather than "research" so it's harder to criticize their choices.

Correct, which leads to some weird outcomes.

[ArlEammon]

Mild bias, like most people.

[Maryring]

DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense! :smalltongue:

I actually didn't find the Gaara/Toph fight to be marred by bias though. The revelation that Toph can sense earth even if she isn't connected to that earth through the ground gives her a superior tactical advantage when it comes to knowing where your enemy is and what attacks he's planning to do. In Avatar, she has earth bending skills that match people far, far older than her, so I don't find it odd that she manages to claim superior control over the earth.

The Final Fantasy fights though? Totally biased. While Link still would've won if they'd truly given them everything due to Gateau + Magic Armour, with Tifa they arbitrarily decided that "she only has that amount of strength when performing her limit break", when they generally run on a rule of "if they've done it once before, they can do it again".

And then there's the math for how much force it takes to split a football into three. :smalltongue:

[Fan]

DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense! :smalltongue:

I actually didn't find the Gaara/Toph fight to be marred by bias though. The revelation that Toph can sense earth even if she isn't connected to that earth through the ground gives her a superior tactical advantage when it comes to knowing where your enemy is and what attacks he's planning to do. In Avatar, she has earth bending skills that match people far, far older than her, so I don't find it odd that she manages to claim superior control over the earth.

The Final Fantasy fights though? Totally biased. While Link still would've won if they'd truly given them everything due to Gateau + Magic Armour, with Tifa they arbitrarily decided that "she only has that amount of strength when performing her limit break", when they generally run on a rule of "if they've done it once before, they can do it again".

And then there's the math for how much force it takes to split a football into three. :smalltongue:

If we go by everything though, we have things like shield materia which makes the target completely immune to physical and elemental damage, and with 99 megalixirs, 99 elixirs, 99 ethers, 99 turbo ethers, and absorb MP on master command you end up in a situation where Link's own unlimited magic fuels Cloud's own invulnerability. That's without abusing things like infinite casting mime loops, quadra casts of Knights of the Round, W Item duplicating an unlimited quantity of megalixirs to let him fight forever, etc and all the other obvious cheese if we're putting infinite loop combos that cross games on the table.

That combo is also nullified by Despell, which is available on one of the materia that Cloud canon gets (specifically the one Sephiroth gut shots him with), and it dispels buffs received from items in FF 7 so it's not limited to buffs that come solely from materia based magic.

Otherwise we agree. Though I will say that Tifa is pretty obviously physically stronger than Cloud is. I mean she does the same thing he does with a sword with her bare hands and her in game strength score is higher than his before we get into equipment and materia modifiers.

[Dragonus45]

DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense! :smalltongue:

I actually didn't find the Gaara/Toph fight to be marred by bias though. The revelation that Toph can sense earth even if she isn't connected to that earth through the ground gives her a superior tactical advantage when it comes to knowing where your enemy is and what attacks he's planning to do. In Avatar, she has earth bending skills that match people far, far older than her, so I don't find it odd that she manages to claim superior control over the earth.



Here (https://youtu.be/yzYOc5qhtok?t=20s) though I have a concrete example that she cannot, and even with that tactical advantage they had to ignore almost literally every single power or ability Gaara had past his first appearance to make that work.

[Talakeal]

I agree that the three soccer balls thing is some grade A bull-poop.

[Anteros]

I thought they specifically discounted the planet chain pull and instead went with the more recent "benchpresses the weight of earth for three days straight" crud. And honestly, while I got the distinct impression they set the fight up a bit for superman to win, it was less out of bias and more out of "Seriously, look at their feats, the winner is as obvious as luke cage versus galactus" The first fight they grabbed various screen caps just to show their relative strength and speed, and superman was shown to be exponentially greater in every category barring possibly actual hand to hand combat skill. (Though they pointed out superman was not exactly a slouch there either) Then they threw in the "philosophy" later to explain why goku will never get strong enough to win.

They lowballed the crap out of Goku in that fight. He can destroy the universe casually. Not the solar system. Not the galaxy. The universe. And in the new series they've stated he has to be careful not to do it on accident. I don't see how bench pressing a planet compares. It's not an arm wrestling competition.

But I was just using it as a random example of the type of things they pull rather than a specific complaint.

[GloatingSwine]

I thought they specifically discounted the planet chain pull and instead went with the more recent "benchpresses the weight of earth for three days straight" crud. And honestly, while I got the distinct impression they set the fight up a bit for superman to win, it was less out of bias and more out of "Seriously, look at their feats, the winner is as obvious as luke cage versus galactus" The first fight they grabbed various screen caps just to show their relative strength and speed, and superman was shown to be exponentially greater in every category barring possibly actual hand to hand combat skill. (Though they pointed out superman was not exactly a slouch there either) Then they threw in the "philosophy" later to explain why goku will never get strong enough to win.

Anyone who seriously tries to argue Goku vs. Superman is doing it wrong.

There is literally no scenario where the two would fight each other seriously, the lack of villainous monologuing/boasting/killing Krillin would give away that the other was actually a good guy and then they'd just team up to stop whatever villain was trying to get them to fight.

[Traab]

They lowballed the crap out of Goku in that fight. He can destroy the universe casually. Not the solar system. Not the galaxy. The universe. And in the new series they've stated he has to be careful not to do it on accident. I don't see how bench pressing a planet compares. It's not an arm wrestling competition.

But I was just using it as a random example of the type of things they pull rather than a specific complaint.

In that case they were comparing physical strength and physical speed, not energy blasting output. Like, goku has instant transmission sure, but when he isnt teleporting, he can only move x fast, while superman is doing obnoxious crap like flying from the star of vega to earth in 10 minutes or less. And yes, everything about the whole scenario they showed is stupidly impossible, they admitted it, but that doesnt make it noncanon. I cant speak for goku, hell, I barely know the general gist of superman, just mentioning that part.

[lord_khaine]

I agree, the FF7 matchups were really borked up. I mean, yeah, noone really expected them to give cloud some theorycrafted kotr quadra cast counter attack combo of insane damage and near unkillability, but they just went all the way in the opposite direction. The best part is, it was painfully obvious cloud only got the materia he did specifically so they could show link blocking or reflecting it. It honestly gave off a feeling that they were massive zelda fans overall and the entire battle was setup just to show how awesome link is. I didnt even get that strong of a reaction to the garra toph fight, I just think they were wrong there. Usually thats just how I feel when I disagree with the outcome, that they ignored something, or missed the implications or whatever, but that link/cloud fight? Yeah, it honestly gave off a feeling like they were in it to make cloud lose to link.

I must admit that the FF7 fights were also the only ones that really got me annoyed. Partly because in the Cloud fight they litterally put an ungeared Cloud against a Link stacked with just about every item they could possibly imagine.
And the Tifa fight annoyed me even further, because the huge calcualtion they did to justify Yangs durability, the one about her smacking though a concrete pillar, were directly wrong. You cant compare how much weight it can support with how hard you need to hit it from the side to crack it :smallannoyed:

[Anteros]

Anyone who seriously tries to argue Goku vs. Superman is doing it wrong.

There is literally no scenario where the two would fight each other seriously, the lack of villainous monologuing/boasting/killing Krillin would give away that the other was actually a good guy and then they'd just team up to stop whatever villain was trying to get them to fight.

I can see Goku attacking Superman for fun. Not to kill him, but just to enjoy the fight.


In that case they were comparing physical strength and physical speed, not energy blasting output. Like, goku has instant transmission sure, but when he isnt teleporting, he can only move x fast, while superman is doing obnoxious crap like flying from the star of vega to earth in 10 minutes or less. And yes, everything about the whole scenario they showed is stupidly impossible, they admitted it, but that doesnt make it noncanon. I cant speak for goku, hell, I barely know the general gist of superman, just mentioning that part.

Ok sure, but then you're completely ignoring the strengths of one character in order to focus on the strengths of another. If you're not going to give a Dragonball character their energy output in a fight, you may as well not even use a Dragonball character because their energy output is 99.99999% of their strength. It's just as ridiculous as giving a Final Fantasy character crappy gear or low stats. It completely misses the point of having the debate in the first place.

Besides, in the actual Death Battle they have Supes overwhelming Goku's blast with his heat vision. That isn't happening. Ever. The scales are just too different.

Superman doesn't fight at his straight line speed anyway. At least not according to Batman and Wonder Woman.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11118/111183084/4023525-5657008950-35a7p.jpg

[Traab]

The heat vision I grant you, I think they showed it on planetary destruction level at best where, as you say, goku can destroy entire star systems and such.

[lord_khaine]

Superman doesn't fight at his straight line speed anyway. At least not according to Batman and Wonder Woman.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...8950-35a7p.jpg

Well.. Batmans comment are kinda stupid.. unless he mean how could you say either one of those two were faster than the other.
And other than that, then it seems like they kinda ignore that with Supermans powerset rushing in a straight like is often a winning move in combat against anyone less tough than himself.


The heat vision I grant you, I think they showed it on planetary destruction level at best where, as you say, goku can destroy entire star systems and such.

The heat vision i would certainly also give though, its always generally been a tool of precision, not a brute force instrument.

[Fan]

Well.. Batmans comment are kinda stupid.. unless he mean how could you say either one of those two were faster than the other.
And other than that, then it seems like they kinda ignore that with Supermans powerset rushing in a straight like is often a winning move in combat against anyone less tough than himself.



The heat vision i would certainly also give though, its always generally been a tool of precision, not a brute force instrument.

Goku's weakness is lasers. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Twizc8zQHg)

That same ring when used earlier in the movie also didn't destroy the planet, AND it happened again in dragonball super when they redid the movie.

[Anteros]

Goku's weakness is lasers. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Twizc8zQHg)

That same ring when used earlier in the movie also didn't destroy the planet, AND it happened again in dragonball super when they redid the movie.

Goku has to actually defend against an attack. If you catch him off guard with a sneak attack like they did there he's much less durable than someone like Supes.

[Reddish Mage]

Anyone who seriously tries to argue Goku vs. Superman is doing it wrong.

There is literally no scenario where the two would fight each other seriously, the lack of villainous monologuing/boasting/killing Krillin would give away that the other was actually a good guy and then they'd just team up to stop whatever villain was trying to get them to fight.

The point of Deathbattle is, like any type of versus, to put two characters in a "what if" scenario. "What if they fought, what if they took it seriously, (if it's a Deathbattle)what if they fought to kill." They can and will use the full extent of their powers against each other...that's what's being imagined.

So to say Goku can't beat Superman because...ultimately Superman is simply stronger, or faster, or Goku is a cheap knockoff of Superman (okay that bit is my own pet peeve about Goku's origin story and has nothing to do with whose stronger) are positions that can easily be challenged...and if Goku can shatter the universe by accident and destroy planets from a distance....well that's a good bit more than Superman can do.

[Fan]

Goku has to actually defend against an attack. If you catch him off guard with a sneak attack like they did there he's much less durable than someone like Supes.

So he didn't have his defenses up when Freiza was on the ground right in front of him? The same guy who when cut in half and in the same situation tried to kill him the last time they fought?

That's not exactly a point in his favor if true, alternatively, lasers are Goku's weakness.

[Lord Raziere]

So he didn't have his defenses up when Freiza was on the ground right in front of him? The same guy who when cut in half and in the same situation tried to kill him the last time they fought?

That's not exactly a point in his favor if true, alternatively, lasers are Goku's weakness.

Hm, no.

it was a specific plot point in Resurrection of F that Vegeta and Goku both have flaws in their fighting style, pointed out by Whis.

Vegeta's flaw is that he doesn't react fast enough, because he thinks too much, shown by Freeza successfully blowing up the planet.

Goku's flaw is his overconfidence, thus dropping his guard and allowing him to get shot in the heart by Sorbet.

Resurrection of F is pretty much all about how the three important characters are all flawed and how everything gets screwed up because of those flaws. so yes, its true, or Resurrection of F doesn't make any sense, because the plot hinges on Goku's flaw of overconfidence being shown to teach him and Vegeta a lesson about how they don't take fights seriously enough, and that there is a limit to how much can be fixed.

[Fan]

Hm, no.

it was a specific plot point in Resurrection of F that Vegeta and Goku both have flaws in their fighting style, pointed out by Whis.

Vegeta's flaw is that he doesn't react fast enough, because he thinks too much, shown by Freeza successfully blowing up the planet.

Goku's flaw is his overconfidence, thus dropping his guard and allowing him to get shot in the heart by Sorbet.

Resurrection of F is pretty much all about how the three important characters are all flawed and how everything gets screwed up because of those flaws. so yes, its true, or Resurrection of F doesn't make any sense, because the plot hinges on Goku's flaw of overconfidence being shown to teach him and Vegeta a lesson about how they don't take fights seriously enough, and that there is a limit to how much can be fixed.

It being a lesson from Whis changes nothing.

It doesn't change that he got wrecked by a laser explicitly not capable of destroying planets in Super Sayian God Super Sayian Form. His guard being down in the middle of a fight with someone who he knows does sneak attacks just means that he's stupid on top of everything else. Cartoonishly so.

[Jayngfet]

...so why would Goku have his guard up for Superman if not Golden Frieza?

I mean if it came to it, Superman is SO MUCH FASTER than Goku that hitting him from behind would be a no brainier and then he couldn't defend.

[Lord Raziere]

It being a lesson from Whis changes nothing.

It doesn't change that he got wrecked by a laser explicitly not capable of planet destroying in Super Sayian God Super Sayian Form.

Because he was off-guard out of overconfidence, not because of your context-deprived reasons. it changes everything, because your essentially ignoring the entire point of Resurrection of F for your theory to make sense. therefore its invalid, because the entire point of that movie is that Goku did not learn his lesson from last time, when your thinking he did.

[Jayngfet]

Because he was off-guard out of overconfidence, not because of your context-deprived reasons. it changes everything, because your essentially ignoring the entire point of Resurrection of F for your theory to make sense. therefore its invalid, because the entire point of that movie is that Goku did not learn his lesson from last time, when your thinking he did.

There's still the important distinction that Superman is capable of blowing past Goku's defenses by a factor of millions. The raw feats don't lie.

[Fan]

Because he was off-guard out of overconfidence, not because of your context-deprived reasons. it changes everything, because your essentially ignoring the entire point of Resurrection of F for your theory to make sense. therefore its invalid, because the entire point of that movie is that Goku did not learn his lesson from last time, when your thinking he did.

You're ignoring the point of the statement, the point of it is that if a surprise attack from a laser beam can take him out then it doesn't matter, because Goku is too stupid to learn the lesson and will just have the same thing happen to him in the Superman fight, and given Superman can and has hit targets on the opposite side of the planet with it, that'd be that.

He didn't learn the lesson from Cell, Frieza, Buu, or Vegeta, he's not gonna learn from it here. Dude's too dumb.

[Anteros]

...so why would Goku have his guard up for Superman if not Golden Frieza?

I mean if it came to it, Superman is SO MUCH FASTER than Goku that hitting him from behind would be a no brainier and then he couldn't defend.

He's doesn't get shot by Frieza. He gets shot by some other guy off in the distance after Frieza is beaten and out of power. Unless Supes sucker punches him to start the fight or has Jimmy Olsen hiding somewhere with a ray gun it's not relevant to a vs battle.

Besides, how many thousands of examples are there of Superman being overconfident and getting taken out as a result? It's hardly a Goku specific flaw.

[Traab]

To me the real problem isnt that goku is a moron or overconfident, or whatever. Its that a simple laser took him out. "Oh he wasnt ready for it" So would clenching his muscles make him immune to lasers? Thats a pathetically low level of durability, thats the real problem. Sucker punch superman with that laser and it might make him blink. Or he might think someone is playing with laser pointers again and not even freaking notice.

[Fan]

He's doesn't get shot by Frieza. He gets shot by some other guy off in the distance after Frieza is beaten and out of power. Unless Supes sucker punches him to start the fight or has Jimmy Olsen hiding somewhere with a ray gun it's not relevant to a vs battle.

Besides, how many thousands of examples are there of Superman being overconfident and getting taken out as a result? It's hardly a Goku specific flaw.

None in the new 52 canon. Only time that really used to happen was back in the Pre Crisis Era / Bronze Age when things were more anyone's game. Though back in that day you also had such sterling villains as "Truk" (http://www.heromachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/bad-truk.jpg) so I wont pretend like it was any better written.

New 52 Superman has feats comparable to Post Crisis Superman now anyways (He even got one comparable to his Mageddon feats with his pulling Brainiac's Warship that was several tens of thousands of times larger than earth and later went right into a black hole and survived.) so no one can argue consistency anymore given New 52's short run so far. He also got shot out to the edge of the universe by said Black Hole and made it back in 60 days, which equating it to our real universe makes him 11597222.2222 times faster than light.

So yeah, nothing's changed and New 52 Superman hasn't been blind sided by anyone not capable of cracking a planet so.

[Sith_Happens]

I actually didn't find the Gaara/Toph fight to be marred by bias though. The revelation that Toph can sense earth even if she isn't connected to that earth through the ground gives her a superior tactical advantage when it comes to knowing where your enemy is and what attacks he's planning to do. In Avatar, she has earth bending skills that match people far, far older than her, so I don't find it odd that she manages to claim superior control over the earth.

Which is all well and good until she gets caught in a Sand Coffin, which is supposed to be completely solid. Only psychic bending can save you then.


They lowballed the crap out of Goku in that fight. He can destroy the universe casually. Not the solar system. Not the galaxy. The universe. And in the new series they've stated he has to be careful not to do it on accident. I don't see how bench pressing a planet compares. It's not an arm wrestling competition.

Maybe current Superman wouldn't beat Goku...


[Snip]

...Actually it sounds like he still would, but that's not my point. Weren't they using (or at least supposed to be using by their own rules) Silver Age Superman? No one beats him.

(If anyone cares, note that I say the above as someone who much prefers Dragonball as a franchise.)

[Anteros]

None in the new 52 canon. Only time that really used to happen was back in the Pre Crisis Era / Bronze Age when things were more anyone's game. Though back in that day you also had such sterling villains as "Truk" (http://www.heromachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/bad-truk.jpg) so I wont pretend like it was any better written.

New 52 Superman has feats comparable to Post Crisis Superman now anyways (He even got one comparable to his Mageddon feats with his pulling Brainiac's Warship that was several tens of thousands of times larger than earth and later went right into a black hole and survived.) so no one can argue consistency anymore given New 52's short run so far. He also got shot out to the edge of the universe by said Black Hole and made it back in 60 days, which equating it to our real universe makes him 11597222.2222 times faster than light.

So yeah, nothing's changed and New 52 Superman hasn't been blind sided by anyone not capable of cracking a planet so.

He lost to freaking Batman because he got caught off guard by kryptonite chewing gum spit into his eye. Truly, he is a combatant who moves at 11597222.2222 times faster than the speed of light at all times. Unfortunately, Batman's spit must travel at 11597222.2223 times the speed of light. :smallsigh:

He also lost to Joker off screen to put him in the position to fight Bats in the first place. He's lost to other people as well, but these were just the most ridiculous I could think of in New52.

Goku might have been caught off guard by a laser, but at least he's never been taken down by a breath freshener.

[Talakeal]

He also got shot out to the edge of the universe by said Black Hole and made it back in 60 days, which equating it to our real universe makes him 11597222.2222 times faster than light.

That actually seems really slow.

The observable universe is ~93 billion light years (and this is probably only an absurdly small fraction of the entire universe). That means in 60 days he travels (at least) 46.5 billion light years. Obviously light travels 1 light year per year, and there are ~365 days in a year, and so we find that he is travelling at roughly 279 billion times the speed of light by my calculations.


Of course, I don't believe there actually is an "edge of the universe". Last I heard the universe was the 3 dimensional surface of a 4 dimensional hyper sphere (although I believe the theory has been revised since), which means that the "edge" could literally be anywhere, so...

[Seppl]

Of course, I don't believe there actually is an "edge of the universe". Last I heard the universe was the 3 dimensional surface of a 4 dimensional hyper sphere (although I believe the theory has been revised since), which means that the "edge" could literally be anywhere, so...Remember: Comic books. Real world physics may not apply. There is an actual, physical wall at the end of the multiverse in DC comics. Though I do not know if this was the location that was being referred to in this particular incident.

[Jayngfet]

Goku might have been caught off guard by a laser, but at least he's never been taken down by a breath freshener.

Ok then.

Lets remove the laser AND the new 52 examples.

Superman still wins. Because he's stronger and faster. The laser is irrelevant. Unless SSGSS gets a revised official multiplier that doesn't matter.

[Fan]

He lost to freaking Batman because he got caught off guard by kryptonite chewing gum spit into his eye. Truly, he is a combatant who moves at 11597222.2222 times faster than the speed of light at all times. Unfortunately, Batman's spit must travel at 11597222.2223 times the speed of light. :smallsigh:

He also lost to Joker off screen to put him in the position to fight Bats in the first place. He's lost to other people as well, but these were just the most ridiculous I could think of in New52.

Goku might have been caught off guard by a laser, but at least he's never been taken down by a breath freshener.

Batman and Superman are also friends. Best friends in fact. So..

It's more like all the times Chichi beats Goku up for coming home late, not working, or taking Gohan out to train without her permission than it is anything else.

Though you also neglected to mention that Superman was under the effects of a mind altering drug that also altered his physical appearance so it stands to reason that he wasn't operating at his fullest faculties either.

I imagine if Krillin decided to Destructo Disc Goku in the middle of an argument he wouldn't see it coming either.

It's hardly comparable, especially given Superman has never, ever, legitimately tried to kill Batman in canon, even while mind controlled his mental blocks have always stopped him from just murdering the caped crusader.

[Lord Raziere]

You're ignoring the point of the statement, the point of it is that if a surprise attack from a laser beam can take him out then it doesn't matter, because Goku is too stupid to learn the lesson and will just have the same thing happen to him in the Superman fight, and given Superman can and has hit targets on the opposite side of the planet with it, that'd be that.

He didn't learn the lesson from Cell, Frieza, Buu, or Vegeta, he's not gonna learn from it here. Dude's too dumb.

Um, maybe take into account the reason why he was overconfident? Freeza hadn't learned his lesson either: he trained yes, but the entire point is that Goku and Vegeta deftly avoided the problem of running out of energy like Freeza in their new forms and instead mastered them- Future Trunks made a similar mistake as Freeza, so their line of thinking was that they knew HIS weakness and could defeat him easily.

Problem is, Freeza still WON. they only gained victory when Whis rewound time.

now why is this a point in Goku's favor? because Superman is probably more of a worthy opponent, and therefore Goku would be more on guard, he was only overconfident when it was clear that Freeza wasn't truly at his level. furthermore, if one person like Freeza can gain victory even if their weakness is clear- why can't Goku? just KNOWING the enemy's weakness is not a guaranteed win condition, no matter how much prep-time Batman fans would have you believe.

and Superman doesn't know that.

the entire point of Resurrection of F was that no one learned their lesson, but for all good reasons: they thought the Dragon Balls would fix everything again, they are so powerful that the number of people who could actually threaten them can probably be counted on one hand if that, and Freeza is someone they fought before, while Freeza learned the lesson to actually train and improve, but he didn't learn to shore up his weaknesses...which could've only been achieved if he wasn't an egomaniacal galactic overlord who could take criticism or fight someone who could actually fight him on equal terms and point out his weaknesses that wasn't an enemy- before Super Saiyans came along, he was the most powerful person on the block, with no one coming close. aside from King Cold, but King Cold is also a galactic overlord who raised him so....he is at fault for Freeza being who he is in the first place.

it just seems your liberally applying the word "dumb" and "stupid" because you spot a flaw in their mindset and take it as indication of their general intelligence being low. a common nerd failing. one can be the most intelligent person in the world and still make the mistake Goku did, because one would believe oneself too intelligent to repeat it, when no one is.

[Fan]

Um, maybe take into account the reason why he was overconfident? Freeza hadn't learned his lesson either: he trained yes, but the entire point is that Goku and Vegeta deftly avoided the problem of running out of energy like Freeza in their new forms and instead mastered them- Future Trunks made a similar mistake as Freeza, so their line of thinking was that they knew HIS weakness and could defeat him easily.

Problem is, Freeza still WON. they only gained victory when Whis rewound time.

now why is this a point in Goku's favor? because Superman is probably more of a worthy opponent, and therefore Goku would be more on guard, he was only overconfident when it was clear that Freeza wasn't truly at his level. furthermore, if one person like Freeza can gain victory even if their weakness is clear- why can't Goku? just KNOWING the enemy's weakness is not a guaranteed win condition, no matter how much prep-time Batman fans would have you believe.

and Superman doesn't know that.

the entire point of Resurrection of F was that no one learned their lesson, but for all good reasons: they thought the Dragon Balls would fix everything again, they are so powerful that the number of people who could actually threaten them can probably be counted on one hand if that, and Freeza is someone they fought before, while Freeza learned the lesson to actually train and improve, but he didn't learn to shore up his weaknesses...which could've only been achieved if he wasn't an egomaniacal galactic overlord who could take criticism or fight someone who could actually fight him on equal terms and point out his weaknesses that wasn't an enemy- before Super Saiyans came along, he was the most powerful person on the block, with no one coming close. aside from King Cold, but King Cold is also a galactic overlord who raised him so....he is at fault for Freeza being who he is in the first place.

it just seems your liberally applying the word "dumb" and "stupid" because you spot a flaw in their mindset and take it as indication of their general intelligence being low. a common nerd failing. one can be the most intelligent person in the world and still make the mistake Goku did, because one would believe oneself too intelligent to repeat it, when no one is.

Goku's canon stupid though. Like legitimately he's canon an idiot that's one of his character flaws. His only mental strength he's ever had has been his ability to not let his mind be clouded in a fight and think about what his opponent is going to do next, an arguable boon gifted to him by his lack of actual intelligence that is all but nullified by his repeated, throughout the entire series demonstration of his inability to properly close a fight out once he became an adult.

This has been true throughout the entire series, even in the very first episode of dragonball the point that Goku is actually stupid when it comes to understanding things that aren't related to fighting, and even then in regards to the more fine tuned parts of fighting like anatomy. It's there in the very first episode of Dragonball and it's still with us today in the most recent episode of Super.

He didn't kill Buu when he should have, so everyone on the planet died. He didn't kill Freiza so Freiza tried to sneak attack him, he didn't kill Cooler properly so he came back and caused trouble for Namek. It goes on. It's reinforced by literally every single thing. Goku is just straight stupid. This isn't being offensive, this isn't disparaging the character, it's part of who he is. It's what fuels the series comedy that he's too dense to do anything but fight in the most straight forward way possible. Hence why he seems to have forgotten he can use instant transmission in combat, hence why he's a radish farmer with his ridiculous physical power instead of literally any other physical profession that'd be more profitable, hence why he lets his enemies live to gloat at them until he gets shot in the back by one of their minions.

Also not learning their lesson only reinforces the point, if he's the type of character who will stop and throw away his lead in the odd umpteenth 0.001% of times the fight would go perfectly his way, he's not going to win that 0.001% of the time.

[Dragonus45]

Young Goku wasn't stupid, he was uneducated there is a difference.

[Anteros]

Batman and Superman are also friends. Best friends in fact. So..

It's more like all the times Chichi beats Goku up for coming home late, not working, or taking Gohan out to train without her permission than it is anything else.

Though you also neglected to mention that Superman was under the effects of a mind altering drug that also altered his physical appearance so it stands to reason that he wasn't operating at his fullest faculties either.

I imagine if Krillin decided to Destructo Disc Goku in the middle of an argument he wouldn't see it coming either.

It's hardly comparable, especially given Superman has never, ever, legitimately tried to kill Batman in canon, even while mind controlled his mental blocks have always stopped him from just murdering the caped crusader.

He was stated to be very near full capacity, but not 100%, and specifically stated to not be holding back at all within the comic it happens. Whatever mental discipline he has, the author went out of their way to state it wasn't working at that time. Whether he's completely 100% or not he shouldn't be getting hit in the eye by chewing gum.



Ok then.

Lets remove the laser AND the new 52 examples.

Superman still wins. Because he's stronger and faster. The laser is irrelevant. Unless SSGSS gets a revised official multiplier that doesn't matter.

If we use Silver Age then yes he does. My problem was never really that Supes won. He's perfectly capable of winning if Goku does something stupid like turning it into a fist fight. My problem was that they misrepresented Goku. He has more than enough raw power to win the fight if he actually lands his best attacks. Now, is Goku stupid enough to turn it into a fist fight and lose? Yes. However, all that tripe about "Superman is just too strong for you to ever match" and the energy blasts being overwhelmed by heat vision stuff was stupid.

[lord_khaine]

He was stated to be very near full capacity, but not 100%, and specifically stated to not be holding back at all within the comic it happens. Whatever mental discipline he has, the author went out of their way to state it wasn't working at that time. Whether he's completely 100% or not he shouldn't be getting hit in the eye by chewing gum.

That story were also one of the must stupid stories i have yet to see in DC canon, its like the authors were holding a circle fanwank for batman, and this were the result.

Batman, against the entire JLA?.... seriously :smallsigh:

Its dumb enough that the joker were allowed to get the drop on them like that, and i would use much sharper words were i allowed to do so.

But the speed difference is so massive, that either WW or Superman should have tagged him with a grazing hit (read, grazing for them. Thats something that would leave Batman a red smear on the road)

[Reddish Mage]

Young Goku wasn't stupid, he was uneducated there is a difference.

Goku is...not particularly intelligence. It's not just a matter of education, his intelligence (or lack thereof) is remarked on and he will repeatedly do dumb things for comic effect even after being corrected.

It's really a running joke in the comic.


Goku's canon stupid though. Like legitimately he's canon an idiot that's one of his character flaws. His only mental strength he's ever had has been his ability to not let his mind be clouded in a fight and think about what his opponent is going to do next, an arguable boon gifted to him by his lack of actual intelligence that is all but nullified by his repeated, throughout the entire series demonstration of his inability to properly close a fight out once he became an adult.

This has been true throughout the entire series, even in the very first episode of dragonball the point that Goku is actually stupid when it comes to understanding things that aren't related to fighting, and even then in regards to the more fine tuned parts of fighting like anatomy. It's there in the very first episode of Dragonball and it's still with us today in the most recent episode of Super.

He didn't kill Buu when he should have, so everyone on the planet died. He didn't kill Freiza so Freiza tried to sneak attack him, he didn't kill Cooler properly so he came back and caused trouble for Namek. It goes on. It's reinforced by literally every single thing. Goku is just straight stupid. This isn't being offensive, this isn't disparaging the character, it's part of who he is. It's what fuels the series comedy that he's too dense to do anything but fight in the most straight forward way possible. Hence why he seems to have forgotten he can use instant transmission in combat, hence why he's a radish farmer with his ridiculous physical power instead of literally any other physical profession that'd be more profitable, hence why he lets his enemies live to gloat at them until he gets shot in the back by one of their minions.

Also not learning their lesson only reinforces the point, if he's the type of character who will stop and throw away his lead in the odd umpteenth 0.001% of times the fight would go perfectly his way, he's not going to win that 0.001% of the time.

I don't disagree but if you want to demonstrate Goku's stupidity by combat tactics Superman is right up there...and Superman is canon brilliant, with all the collected knowledge in the universe in his head, a massive robot army at his command, alien weaponry and the ability to create protective suits...yet how often does Superman go right up to his obviously potentially dangerous opponent and take whatever they have to dish out?

[Legato Endless]

Snip

Yeah, Goku's complete lack of adaptability or growth as a fighter despite his years of tactical experience makes me very sympathetic to this point. This is no where near the level of tactical Batman wizards that's oft complained of in OOTS, this is just asking a character to demonstrate some basic problem solving after having it bite him in the ass after years. Alternatively, Goku is an adrenaline junkie who simply prolongs battle even when he knows it's impractical, but that amounts to essentially the same thing. Place against someone who can keep up with him relatively in terms of power and ability that demonstrates some decent tactical acumen, and Goku is rather screwed.

[Fan]

Goku is...not particularly intelligence. It's not just a matter of education, his intelligence (or lack thereof) is remarked on and he will repeatedly do dumb things for comic effect even after being corrected.

It's really a running joke in the comic.



I don't disagree but if you want to demonstrate Goku's stupidity by combat tactics Superman is right up there...and Superman is canon brilliant, with all the collected knowledge in the universe in his head, a massive robot army at his command, alien weaponry and the ability to create protective suits...yet how often does Superman go right up to his obviously potentially dangerous opponent and take whatever they have to dish out?

Goku being dumb isn't even really contestable, dude's a canon and straight up idiot. That I've had to drive the point home this far to someone who's seen the show and read the manga is honestly kind of disheartening.

Anyways, on to the second point.



http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/111336/3603501-7326273383-73348.jpg



Goku being dumb isn't even really contestable, dude's a canon and straight up idiot. That I've had to drive the point home this far to someone who's seen the show and read the manga is honestly kind of disheartening.

Superman does fight smart though, he uses his knowledge of anatomy to deal crippling blows that leave someone incapacitated rather than killed most of the time, and other time's he's using heat vision to lobotomize someone who's demonstrated that they are completely beyond reform when needed.

He can even take it a step further and control the temperature of his heat vision so accurately that he has it down to the degree, this is combined with his ability to know the boiling points of superhuman beings at a glance:



http://politedissent.com/images/sep05/heat_vision1.jpg



and for the heat vision lobotomy he does so with enough knowledge of human anatomy to avoid turning the person into a vegetable mid combat:



http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/123873/2978524-superman+lobotomy.jpg




So Superman has demonstrated his combat competency beyond being a brutish wall of super fast meat.

As for the story line, Scott Snyder specifically went on record saying none of the people involved who were "Joker"-ized were operating at anything near their full combat capability, this includes being physically weaker and slower.

I ALSO hate the modern bat-wank as I think it's gotten to a point where the character has abandoned everything that made him good, and I agree with you on the point that the writing is complete garbage in that story, but that's besides the point. I feel the same about a lot of modern DC, I don't even like Modern Superman anymore, the writing's degraded to a point where they've made me stop caring about a character that anyone who knows me knows that I have a passion for. However, whether I like something or not has no impact on whether it'd win a versus match, as I've said before.

[Anteros]

That story were also one of the must stupid stories i have yet to see in DC canon, its like the authors were holding a circle fanwank for batman, and this were the result.

Batman, against the entire JLA?.... seriously :smallsigh:

Its dumb enough that the joker were allowed to get the drop on them like that, and i would use much sharper words were i allowed to do so.

But the speed difference is so massive, that either WW or Superman should have tagged him with a grazing hit (read, grazing for them. Thats something that would leave Batman a red smear on the road)

It was incredibly stupid. Wonder woman slams him hard enough to crack concrete with his bare face and he isn't even scratched. I'm sure it's possible to write a good story where Batman fights the league, but that isn't it.

I picked it just to highlight how ridiculous it was.

[Traab]

I dont follow dc comics much, but isnt that basically the issue with trying to make it so batman can hang with a league of heroes so freaking powerful that its beyond absurd? Men who can move fast enough to evacuate a city in mid nuclear explosion and noone gets hurt, or who can punch planets out of orbit and use them as bullets if they so desired. And meanwhile you have batman who is smart and good at martial arts. Yeah, there is no way in hell batman should reasonably be able to stand with the league. At best he should be the background computer research guy. He is the one who puts the clues together and fills in the people currently punching gods in the face that the weak spot is the third vertebrae down. But instead, because batman is so popular, they have to make him equally epic, so you get bat god, lord of prep, able to overthrow freaking gods with a clever plan and a few hours to get ready.

[Anteros]

I dont follow dc comics much, but isnt that basically the issue with trying to make it so batman can hang with a league of heroes so freaking powerful that its beyond absurd? Men who can move fast enough to evacuate a city in mid nuclear explosion and noone gets hurt, or who can punch planets out of orbit and use them as bullets if they so desired. And meanwhile you have batman who is smart and good at martial arts. Yeah, there is no way in hell batman should reasonably be able to stand with the league. At best he should be the background computer research guy. He is the one who puts the clues together and fills in the people currently punching gods in the face that the weak spot is the third vertebrae down. But instead, because batman is so popular, they have to make him equally epic, so you get bat god, lord of prep, able to overthrow freaking gods with a clever plan and a few hours to get ready.

They usually do a fair job of keeping him behind the scenes, or keeping his parts on the front lines sensible by comic book standards. There's just a few very bad exceptions.

To be fair though, this particular Batman story was basically supposed to be his climactic arc in the New52, so I understand why they wanted to showcase the character. The way they went about it was just poor.

On Goku: Fan, I know you're smart enough to understand the implications that Goku can both give and withstand blows stated to be strong enough to destroy the entire universe just with their shock waves. It might be completely insane bull poop, but it's still canon completely insane bull poop. In any scenario where he doesn't let his guard down and get sucker punched by Superman he wins. Full stop.

There is literally nothing to argue unless Supes has some feat I haven't seen where he puts out enough power to destroy all of existence.

[Jayngfet]

Superman does, in fact, handle Universe enders. If I remember right he was one of the last men standing against Parallax, who DID destroy the universe.

The latest episode of Super shows that's not even consistent anyway. Shockwaves like that scare the CRAP out of Goku.

[Anteros]

Superman does, in fact, handle Universe enders. If I remember right he was one of the last men standing against Parallax, who DID destroy the universe.

The latest episode of Super shows that's not even consistent anyway. Shockwaves like that scare the CRAP out of Goku.

The powered up Universe ending version of Parralax knocked him out in one hit without getting hurt at all.

I didn't see anything in the most recent episode that would contradict what I've said. Of course he's not crazy about people casually almost destroying the universe, but it doesn't make him weaker.

[Kato]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go :smallsigh:

[Anteros]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go :smallsigh:

Sorry. I didn't mean to bring it to that to start with. I just used it as an example, and then someone asked a question, and now here we are. I'll drop it and not respond to any more responses about it so we don't derail further though.

[Lethologica]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go :smallsigh:
That would have promoted the debate to people's attention and gotten us there faster.

[Sith_Happens]

There is literally nothing to argue unless Supes has some feat I haven't seen where he puts out enough power to destroy all of existence.

Didn't someone say earlier in this thread that he literally bench-pressed the universe once? Personally I find that more impressive than simply smashing everything in the universe.

[lord_khaine]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go

We can instad move the focus towards how mind-numbingly dumb the Batman vs the JLA fight were. Or how directly stupid it is if Batman got even a glancing hit from someone able to trade punches with Superman, without going down.

Or talk about how the fight should have gone, if it were being made properly, and Batman still had to win?

[Dragonus45]

Batman VS the JLA would have to be a serious guerrilla warfare kind of deal, and honestly even though its a fight I could see him pulling out on top of I really don't want him do. Dude has enough BS floating around as is.

[Kyberwulf]

Firstly, I was wondering how long it was going to take to get to a Superman Vs. Goku fight.

lol.

ON the link with Batman Superman and Wonder Woman. I think it is being missed, that Superman thinks a lot faster then normal people. So even on a slow morning, after JUST waking up and before a morning coffee.. Superman should still be able to "Outthink" Muscle Memory.

Second. On Link vs. Cloud. I think it is being made to compare Game Mechanics vs. Game Mechanics. I think Link still would have won. Because Could doesn't usually bring anything with him on Missions. In game. Two. Almost EVERYTHING in Final Fantasy is optional. So saying Cloud should have anything is amazingly meh. Although to be fair. I did also think it was a little bunk that they give Link so much stuff.

Also, why I think Superman will always win against Goku. This isn't a Beatstick vs. a Beatstick. Personally, powerwise. I think Superman outclasses Goku. It's not just that though. It's that superman thinks, he isn't just known for being strong. It's also cause he uses his brain. Goku usually only thinks about one of two things. Food. Or fighting. And remember, just cause you think about about one thing, Doesn't automatically make you good at that one thing.

ON topic. I think DeathBattle is fair, as anything can be really.

[Reddish Mage]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go :smallsigh:

Superman/Goku on versus threads is like Nazis on the Internet, sooner or later, someone is going to mention them (case in point).

[Anteros]

It's a thread about whether Death Battle is biased or not. Acting surprised that their most controversial battle has come up as part of the conversation is disingenuous.

Yes, we are talking about the topic of this thread within the thread. This should not surprise anyone.


We can instad move the focus towards how mind-numbingly dumb the Batman vs the JLA fight were. Or how directly stupid it is if Batman got even a glancing hit from someone able to trade punches with Superman, without going down.

Or talk about how the fight should have gone, if it were being made properly, and Batman still had to win?

If I had to re-write it I'd keep the mind control aspect, but have Batman receive a warning slightly in advance and he has to keep them from some goal. Not necessarily have them trying to kill him, but maybe some other target and he has to stop them. If you let him prepare the battlefield well in advance, or bring the fight to them it's at least a bit more believable than having Wonder Woman shove his bare face through concrete and he's not even disoriented.

One of the things to remember about Batman's defenses against the other league members is that it's typically the league helping him build and test these things in case he ever needs them. It's a lot easier to fight Cyborg when Cyborg helped you make the gear to hack him. It's a lot easier to fight Wonder Woman when she gives you the lasso needed to defeat her. Etc.

[Traab]

Didn't someone say earlier in this thread that he literally bench-pressed the universe once? Personally I find that more impressive than simply smashing everything in the universe.

Well in the screw attack description they talk about him lifting a book with infinite pages. Also lifting specter, who is made up of eternity. So yeah, superman can lift infinity and eternity. Thats how balls out insane the feats get. According to THOSE feats, if goku unleashed enough power to destroy the universe, superman would shove the universe out of the way. :smalltongue: Seriously though, its a pointless argument specifically because of these absurd feats on both sides.

[Fan]

They usually do a fair job of keeping him behind the scenes, or keeping his parts on the front lines sensible by comic book standards. There's just a few very bad exceptions.

To be fair though, this particular Batman story was basically supposed to be his climactic arc in the New52, so I understand why they wanted to showcase the character. The way they went about it was just poor.

On Goku: Fan, I know you're smart enough to understand the implications that Goku can both give and withstand blows stated to be strong enough to destroy the entire universe just with their shock waves. It might be completely insane bull poop, but it's still canon completely insane bull poop. In any scenario where he doesn't let his guard down and get sucker punched by Superman he wins. Full stop.

There is literally nothing to argue unless Supes has some feat I haven't seen where he puts out enough power to destroy all of existence.

In DBZ people blow hot smoke all the time about how strong they are. I've said this before, Cell's Kamehameha would not have destroyed the Solar System, and saying that you can destroy the universe with shockwaves doesn't make it true. When it actually happens, then we'll have a fight.

Statements aren't a valid measurement of a character's ability in DBZ or in ANY canon.

[Lord Raziere]

In DBZ people blow hot smoke all the time about how strong they are. I've said this before, Cell's Kamehameha would not have destroyed the Solar System, and saying that you can destroy the universe with shockwaves doesn't make it true. When it actually happens, then we'll have a fight.

Statements aren't a valid measurement of a character's ability in DBZ or in ANY canon.

Kid Buu would like a word with you.

Well he would if he spoke, he mostly just blew up planets nonstop without getting tired. and Goku in response fire a kamehameha that cut a moon in half. there is also the part where Piccolo destroyed the moon on Earth, and Freeza really did destroy Namek, and Super Buu killed the entire population of Earth from just standing on one spot and blasting one attack and thus wasting the Z-Fighters attempt to buy time.....

oh and Beerus who doesn't boast, he reminisces when he destroys things like entire star quadrants or wipes out the dinosaurs, or Golden Freeza who successfully destroyed Earth before time was rewound. in seconds. and these people are holding back. the person who didn't was....KID BUU.

and he might be actually harder for Superman to kill than Goku. tireless, completely ruthless and will blow up your planet without even caring to fight you, and a very powerful regenerative ability that prevents any laser lobotomy tricks. and how he died isn't because the Spirit Bomb is powerful- its more like that its a holy weapon, and Kid Buu is pure evil, so its more a purification kind of thing than raw power. a power which Superman lacks, that and Kid Buu is basically a magical reality-warper, so big weakness for Supes there, he is vulnerable to magic after all, and Kid Buu is nothing if not magic.

[Fan]

Kid Buu would like a word with you.

Well he would if he spoke, he mostly just blew up planets nonstop without getting tired. and Goku in response fire a kamehameha that cut a moon in half. there is also the part where Piccolo destroyed the moon on Earth, and Freeza really did destroy Namek, and Super Buu killed the entire population of Earth from just standing on one spot and blasting one attack and thus wasting the Z-Fighters attempt to buy time.....

oh and Beerus who doesn't boast, he reminisces when he destroys things like entire star quadrants or wipes out the dinosaurs, or Golden Freeza who successfully destroyed Earth before time was rewound. in seconds. and these people are holding back. the person who didn't was....KID BUU.

and he might be actually harder for Superman to kill than Goku. tireless, completely ruthless and will blow up your planet without even caring to fight you, and a very powerful regenerative ability that prevents any laser lobotomy tricks. and how he died isn't because the Spirit Bomb is powerful- its more like that its a holy weapon, and Kid Buu is pure evil, so its more a purification kind of thing than raw power. a power which Superman lacks, that and Kid Buu is basically a magical reality-warper, so big weakness for Supes there, he is vulnerable to magic after all, and Kid Buu is nothing if not magic.

Freiza's "5 minutes" quote yes, the one that was clearly wrong as well. Also he didn't straight up destroy the planet, he just destabilized it enough that it broke apart and destroyed itself.

Kid Buu's feats and endurance have nothing to do with Goku because Goku didn't beat Kid Buu in one go, he had to be wished back to full power and have a spirit bomb to defeat Kid Buu. Not to mention Vegeta fought him before that as well.

Also again, Beerus hasn't done anything to back up his claims, and people in DB like to blow hot smoke all the time.

Ki isn't magic, we've been over this a dozen times. Also New Superman isn't vulnerable to magic as he has taken a planet busting magic explosion and didn't die from it.

Again, call me when these people actually do the things they're talking about.

[Lord Raziere]

Kid Buu blew up a bunch of planets. On screen. with seconds between each one. he didn't boast, he just did it. no hot smoke blown there. Golden Freeza blew up Earth in seconds, shown on screen once again

neither of them talked about doing these feats, they did it, they succeeded, anyone who watched it, saw it.

so....yes, DBZ people boast a lot, but here is the thing: they have good reason to. they can do these things with certainty, and with certainty comes confidence, and with confidence comes boasting. no one knows their own limits more than a fighter. and no one knows the importance of control more than a fighter. I mean- DBZ is basically space opera Wuxia, y'know how that genre operates- having good control of your power is just as important as having power. I wouldn't mistake not doing those feats with not being capable.

mostly because the people who prove that all of them can do these feats are incredibly evil. because the people fighting these people who did them, are on the same level of power and fire off attacks of similar potency. so I'm going with stated stuff, otherwise your just using "seeing is believing" fallacy. just because we can't see gravity or what the conditions are like in a distant country, doesn't mean we don't accept them as facts.

and no, Kid Buu IS magic, he is a demon made of it. I mean you do know that "Majin" means "Demon" right? and Buu is the first Majin right? So he is a demon, and demons are magic.

[Fan]

Kid Buu blew up a bunch of planets. On screen. with seconds between each one. he didn't boast, he just did it. no hot smoke blown there. Golden Freeza blew up Earth in seconds, shown on screen once again

neither of them talked about doing these feats, they did it, they succeeded, anyone who watched it, saw it.

so....yes, DBZ people boast a lot, but here is the thing: they have good reason to. they can do these things with certainty, and with certainty comes confidence, and with confidence comes boasting. no one knows their own limits more than a fighter. and no one knows the importance of control more than a fighter. I mean- DBZ is basically space opera Wuxia, y'know how that genre operates- having good control of your power is just as important as having power. I wouldn't mistake not doing those feats with not being capable.

mostly because the people who prove that all of them can do these feats are incredibly evil. because the people fighting these people who did them, are on the same level of power and fire off attacks of similar potency. so I'm going with stated stuff, otherwise your just using "seeing is believing" fallacy. just because we can't see gravity or what the conditions are like in a distant country, doesn't mean we don't accept them as facts.

and no, Kid Buu IS magic, he is a demon made of it. I mean you do know that "Majin" means "Demon" right? and Buu is the first Majin right? So he is a demon, and demons are magic.

Again, magic doesn't matter to Superman anymore. Even in Pre New 52 he had anti magic wards from Zatanna and The Phantom Stranger.

Also, Kid Buu still gets destroyed by planet busting explosions, meaning one blast of heat vision would end that fight anyways. Being magic, and having your attacks come from magic are different things, especially in the DB Universe. You have people like Roshi's Sister who are highly talented in magic but have no ki, people like Babidi who have a decent amount of both (Babidi apparently is an equal to Freiza when it comes to Ki. Weird but hey.), and then people like Majiin Buu who are Demons.

Demons are not magic in Dragon Ball, they are denizens of another realm, Buu has strange anatomy for sure, but as an alien being who predates most of the universe this can all be explained by a huge pool of ki and an insane healing factor.

You should read this (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Demon) sometime. Majiin are a species not comprised of magic. You're just wrong here. Majiin Buu wasn't made, he was awakened. In fact, in every single medium where Buu interacts with magic it's made pretty clear that he has no natural control over it. In Dragonball Heroes, Xenoverse, AND In Shin Budokai another road he has to absorb Babidi to use magic, or he's controlled by Demigra's magic without being able to resist. Also nowhere in any of his stat books is he described as a magical being at all.

You are in fact, just wrong.

The only thing that describes the species is from Saikyo Jump #6 where "The first member of this race known is the original Majin Buu, who has existed since time immemorial, cycling between rampages and long hibernation, and was summoned once again 5 million years before Age by the evil wizard Bibidi."

Canon, author authorized proof that he is a being that was born, and is fact not made of magic. Do they use some magical attacks in the case of like, The Candy Beam? Sure, but that's a staple of Demons in the DB universe. All of them have some magical attack they can use, like Dabura's Spit, or Spike The Devil Man's anti evil laser beam. They are no more composed of it than a mage would be made out of magic.

[Lord Raziere]

Ok whatever.

let forget about that then. mostly because I just stopped caring when that post was so long.

[Fan]

Ok whatever.

let forget about that then. mostly because I just stopped caring when that post was so long.

TL;DR is your response. Well, I'll let this one speak for itself.

[Jayngfet]

Magic in Dragon Ball is a tricky subject. As Death Battle correctly pointed out, magic and ki fighting are very different concepts. The Kamehameha is ki. Babidi's shield is magic. They have basically zero overlap and the only way they can be done together is if you have skills in both simultaneously, like Piccolo evidently does, because he's got his fathers memories and Vegeta mentions all Namekians are magic. Which is why Guru can do the potential unlock elder kai only got after becoming magic himself.

So in a practical sense, Goku can't even use magic on Superman. So to bring it back to it's original point, Goku couldn't harm him even if we consider the weakness to be "in play".

[Lord Raziere]

well if your going to like that: life is too short to waste on this nonsense for me. hope you like winning these arguments and all the work you put into this, cause I don't. just not enjoyable or worth my time, so why bother?

I'm quitting. I know when to fold 'em, no shame in that.

[Zalabim]

The thing that bothered me on Link Vs Cloud was calculating whether Link can block Cloud's attacks due to being able to lift giant pillars with the power gauntlets and having an indestructible shield. There's ways to lose your shield in nearly every LoZ game. The gauntlets do let him pick up massive objects, but they don't make him deal more damage or ever allow him to block giant sword attacks in his own game. So he can't. It's just as valid to say the gauntlets reduce the weight of anything he grabs. The fight comes down to Link's combat skills versus Cloud's strength and speed. That would be more interesting to display than "Link blocks everything until Cloud gets tired."

If you want to say Cloud wins automatically because Shield materia makes him invulnerable, I'll just remind you that Link is used to fighting enemies who have only a single vulnerability. Making yourself into a LoZ boss to fight Link is a losing strategy.

Someone earlier complained about sand coffin in the Gaara vs Toph fight. The fight is just pretty pictures until they tell you the result of their research. It's a dramatization. Does Toph not have multiple ways to counter sand coffin? Has Gaara not done the equivalent of fighting a pyromancer while wearing dynamite armor?

[Seppl]

Well in the screw attack description they talk about him lifting a book with infinite pages. Also lifting specter, who is made up of eternity. So yeah, superman can lift infinity and eternity. Thats how balls out insane the feats get. According to THOSE feats, if goku unleashed enough power to destroy the universe, superman would shove the universe out of the way. :smalltongue: Seriously though, its a pointless argument specifically because of these absurd feats on both sides.Which is why Death Battle did not even bother comparing these things for the second battle. For Superman, every question about his strength always has the same answer: Strong enough. This is what defines him as Superman. That is an ability that Goku can never match, no matter how hard he tries.

[Fan]

The thing that bothered me on Link Vs Cloud was calculating whether Link can block Cloud's attacks due to being able to lift giant pillars with the power gauntlets and having an indestructible shield. There's ways to lose your shield in nearly every LoZ game. The gauntlets do let him pick up massive objects, but they don't make him deal more damage or ever allow him to block giant sword attacks in his own game. So he can't. It's just as valid to say the gauntlets reduce the weight of anything he grabs. The fight comes down to Link's combat skills versus Cloud's strength and speed. That would be more interesting to display than "Link blocks everything until Cloud gets tired."

If you want to say Cloud wins automatically because Shield materia makes him invulnerable, I'll just remind you that Link is used to fighting enemies who have only a single vulnerability. Making yourself into a LoZ boss to fight Link is a losing strategy.

Someone earlier complained about sand coffin in the Gaara vs Toph fight. The fight is just pretty pictures until they tell you the result of their research. It's a dramatization. Does Toph not have multiple ways to counter sand coffin? Has Gaara not done the equivalent of fighting a pyromancer while wearing dynamite armor?

That's true in Zelda boss fights because Zelda bosses are almost always, if not always, extremely slow or they have a weak point that's huge and glaring.

Imagine if you had a boss in Zelda that was faster than you, took more hits than you could, and did more damage than you while also having immunity to physical and elemental damage AND denying you access to any of your items by using war drums to inflict the Berserk status effect. This is by a factor of 10. Sure Magic Armor would buy you time until your magic runs out, but that cheatu romani buff gets stripped at the start of the fight, and if you do somehow manage to find a way to purge off the berserk effect you need to be able to do it 99 times, and when you've done that you're still looking at toad, petrification, straight up instant death, and every hit that connects is actually 4 hits because of a pair of Master Command Materias, one is attached to MP absorb, the other to MP turbo so he's draining your mana on top of doing full damage with all 4 of those cuts, and that's just the start, and is again, without infinite loops, oh and if you do manage to kill him Final Attack + Phoenix gets him right back into the fight. Literally unkillable. This is all without the infinite casting loops you can do from mime with quadra magic and MP turbo for full damage infinite casts of things like ultima and flare, or hell, even with stop to just ensure Link can't move until his buffs wear off IF despell happens to not purge them.

It'd be unfair, nobody would be able to beat it.

[DiscipleofBob]

The Link vs Cloud debate bothers me more as time goes on because the justification they use to say Tifa's limit break feats are situational and don't count towards her actual strength is the same thing they ignored when they said Link's bracelets, which only let him lift large rocks, gives him super strength when blocking, despite the bracelets not having any effect on combat whatsoever.

The more I think about it, Link shouldn't even be on the same level as Cloud. Link takes his opponents down through exploiting weak points and cunning, not raw power like Cloud. Cloud has canon feats of him cutting through vehicles and buildings.

Link fights a dragon by leaping on the dragon's back, throwing a bomb in its mouth, and hitting the weak point for massive damage. Cloud fights a dragon by tanking the strongest attack its got and slicing the dragon in half.

[Devonix]

In the naritive of the game Tifa never displays any above human strength or duribility though. She gets into slap fight with scarlet. They get locked in cages. She gets tied up and can't get out on her own. There are so many cases in the story where having super strength would come in handy and it flat out states that she's not strong enough to do something.

[Zalabim]

That's true in Zelda boss fights because Zelda bosses are almost always, if not always, extremely slow or they have a weak point that's huge and glaring.

Imagine if you had a boss in Zelda that was faster than you, took more hits than you could, and did more damage than you while also having immunity to physical and elemental damage

You mean Ganon?


everything else

I don't think Link would actually win, but it won't come down to Cloud cheating in FF7 to beat a character in a different game. It has to be something from Cloud, rather than something that any FF7 character could go to the store and buy. It comes down to Cloud is superhuman and Link is just good.

[Fan]

In the naritive of the game Tifa never displays any above human strength or duribility though. She gets into slap fight with scarlet. They get locked in cages. She gets tied up and can't get out on her own. There are so many cases in the story where having super strength would come in handy and it flat out states that she's not strong enough to do something.

That changes in Advent Children, and in the narrative of the game itself NO ONE displays any superhuman ability outside of sephiroth. Well outside of crossing The Whirlwind Maze and surviving The Weapon's Awakening.

That'll change in the remake though I imagine. I'd bet my bottom dollar that they're going to use the same field battle system they use for FF XV, and that they're gonna throw in the materia system from FF 7 with a new coat of paint. Easiest money of their lives.

[Evandar]

I haven't gone through every response in the thread, but if it hasn't been brought up, they go through a lot of logical errors or misinterpret things, particularly when trying to go through things across continuities.

For example, when working out how strong Iron Man was for one of the battles, they took a scene from Avengers 2 where he beat The Hulk up. Now, The Hulk from the Avengers is substantially weaker than some of his iterations from the comic books (I haven't read them, but I know he has shifted tectonic plates with his hands).

Their logic went something like:

Hulk (from the comics) can lift mountains.

Iron Man beat up Hulk (from Avengers 2).

C. Iron Man must be stronger than something that can lift mountains.

Which is obviously silly, since the difference between the two Hulks is so huge that you just can't use them for comparisons like that. There's also some stuff like 'Cloud from Final Fantasy is depicted as having air lines around his head, so he must have been thrown harder than Mach 1, so Tifa is that strong' when the writers probably didn't intend it to do anything other than look cool.

And with that, I retire to reflect on how nerdy I am.

[Devonix]

I haven't gone through every response in the thread, but if it hasn't been brought up, they go through a lot of logical errors or misinterpret things, particularly when trying to go through things across continuities.

For example, when working out how strong Iron Man was for one of the battles, they took a scene from Avengers 2 where he beat The Hulk up. Now, The Hulk from the Avengers is substantially weaker than some of his iterations from the comic books (I haven't read them, but I know he has shifted tectonic plates with his hands).

Their logic went something like:

Hulk (from the comics) can lift mountains.

Iron Man beat up Hulk (from Avengers 2).

C. Iron Man must be stronger than something that can lift mountains.

Which is obviously silly, since the difference between the two Hulks is so huge that you just can't use them for comparisons like that. There's also some stuff like 'Cloud from Final Fantasy is depicted as having air lines around his head, so he must have been thrown harder than Mach 1, so Tifa is that strong' when the writers probably didn't intend it to do anything other than look cool.

And with that, I retire to reflect on how nerdy I am.


When they show scenes from movies or cartoons you can blatantly ignore them really. They are just shown because otherwise the audience would be doing nothing but looking at comic book scans and that gets boring for some people.

When Screwattack uses a character they pick a specific version of that character from a specific continuity. The only time I remember a composite character being when they merged various Links from Legend of Zelda, even still they only used Game Link.

None of the Movie feats were taken into account for Ironman.

[Traab]

I haven't gone through every response in the thread, but if it hasn't been brought up, they go through a lot of logical errors or misinterpret things, particularly when trying to go through things across continuities.

For example, when working out how strong Iron Man was for one of the battles, they took a scene from Avengers 2 where he beat The Hulk up. Now, The Hulk from the Avengers is substantially weaker than some of his iterations from the comic books (I haven't read them, but I know he has shifted tectonic plates with his hands).

Their logic went something like:

Hulk (from the comics) can lift mountains.

Iron Man beat up Hulk (from Avengers 2).

C. Iron Man must be stronger than something that can lift mountains.

Which is obviously silly, since the difference between the two Hulks is so huge that you just can't use them for comparisons like that. There's also some stuff like 'Cloud from Final Fantasy is depicted as having air lines around his head, so he must have been thrown harder than Mach 1, so Tifa is that strong' when the writers probably didn't intend it to do anything other than look cool.

And with that, I retire to reflect on how nerdy I am.

Too be fair, it didnt mater how powerful they said starks hulkbuster armor was, since it got stomped easily. I tend to only worry about the inaccuracies when they actually effect the fights outcome. To me, the real issue was, they made such a huge deal about how lex designed his armor to stand up to superman, when the reality is, it was designed to stand up to a superman who doesnt want to absolutely murder lex. You dont even have to enter supermans top 15 feats of power to start hitting feats that would reduce lex and his armor to liquid instantly if superman unleashed them on him. And even discounting that, lex's entire suit was designed to do exactly one thing, counter superman. Every strength it had revolved around a weakness stark doesnt suffer from. It would be like declaring my suit of porcupine quills that I designed to pick fights with martial artists means im immune against gunmen. Yes thats a slight exaggeration, but that doesnt make the comparison wrong. Lex versus superman is rock versus scissors. Lex versus stark is rock versus rock. That takes away a lot of the advantage lex enjoys in his fights.

[Devonix]

Too be fair, it didnt mater how powerful they said starks hulkbuster armor was, since it got stomped easily. I tend to only worry about the inaccuracies when they actually effect the fights outcome. To me, the real issue was, they made such a huge deal about how lex designed his armor to stand up to superman, when the reality is, it was designed to stand up to a superman who doesnt want to absolutely murder lex. You dont even have to enter supermans top 15 feats of power to start hitting feats that would reduce lex and his armor to liquid instantly if superman unleashed them on him. And even discounting that, lex's entire suit was designed to do exactly one thing, counter superman. Every strength it had revolved around a weakness stark doesnt suffer from. It would be like declaring my suit of porcupine quills that I designed to pick fights with martial artists means im immune against gunmen. Yes thats a slight exaggeration, but that doesnt make the comparison wrong. Lex versus superman is rock versus scissors. Lex versus stark is rock versus rock. That takes away a lot of the advantage lex enjoys in his fights.

Quite right, every time Lex fights Superman in his battlearmor and Supes says he's had enough he tears into the suit like its made of tissue paper.

[Fan]

When they show scenes from movies or cartoons you can blatantly ignore them really. They are just shown because otherwise the audience would be doing nothing but looking at comic book scans and that gets boring for some people.

When Screwattack uses a character they pick a specific version of that character from a specific continuity. The only time I remember a composite character being when they merged various Links from Legend of Zelda, even still they only used Game Link.

None of the Movie feats were taken into account for Ironman.

Movie Ironman is MUCH weaker than comic Iron Man.

Composite Link from the games is really all you need, unless there's some hidden super tier feats in the comics.

[Devonix]

Movie Ironman is MUCH weaker than comic Iron Man.

Composite Link from the games is really all you need, unless there's some hidden super tier feats in the comics.

Right and that's why they used Comic book Ironman. They showed movie scenes but all of the feats they used were from Comic book Ironman. And personally I don't like the idea of Composite Link because each link is so different from each other.

[Devonix]

And general consensus is that Princess Peach beats Zelda easily in combat. She's a hell of a lot stronger, more durable. And has actually won fights on her own wheras Zelda has never been shown to handle a fight on her own.

[Fan]

And general consensus is that Princess Peach beats Zelda easily in combat. She's a hell of a lot stronger, more durable. And has actually won fights on her own wheras Zelda has never been shown to handle a fight on her own.

Yeah, I think that no one disagrees on that Peach SHOULD have won as she has way more actual combat and success under her belt than Zelda on top of being involved with the living hell that is Mario Party.

Also yeah, Composite Link is a gestalt entity that is only used to represent a character that /doesn't exist/ in Legend of Zelda to show a hypothetical combination of Link's to make the best possible one. I don't like using him either, but a lot of people use him as the go to because individual Link's really don't have feats that are all that great. You have to mash them together to get someone with well rounded stats unless you use Majora's Mask Link. Everyone else lacks speed (Twilight Princess Link), Strength (oracle of seasons Link and most other Link's in fact outside of Ocarina of Time.), or durability (every link but Twilight Princess Link. Seriously, Magic Armor is amazing.).

[Devonix]

Yeah, I think that no one disagrees on that Peach SHOULD have won as she has way more actual combat and success under her belt than Zelda on top of being involved with the living hell that is Mario Party.

Also yeah, Composite Link is a gestalt entity that is only used to represent a character that /doesn't exist/ in Legend of Zelda to show a hypothetical combination of Link's to make the best possible one. I don't like using him either, but a lot of people use him as the go to because individual Link's really don't have feats that are all that great. You have to mash them together to get someone with well rounded stats unless you use Majora's Mask Link. Everyone else lacks speed (Twilight Princess Link), Strength (oracle of seasons Link and most other Link's in fact outside of Ocarina of Time.), or durability (every link but Twilight Princess Link. Seriously, Magic Armor is amazing.).

But why should that matter that you don't get some perfect good at everything Link. I want a character, not a collection of abilities.

[Fan]

But why should that matter that you don't get some perfect good at everything Link. I want a character, not a collection of abilities.

It exists solely for versus fights on the internet. I didn't make it up. I don't even like it.

Link's fine as a strong willed, courageous, adventurer who's out to save the princess. He doesn't need to be some composite entity that makes use of all the secret items from all his games.

[Devonix]

It exists solely for versus fights on the internet. I didn't make it up. I don't even like it.

Link's fine as a strong willed, courageous, adventurer who's out to save the princess. He doesn't need to be some composite entity that makes use of all the secret items from all his games.

Yeah it's the same problem I have with someone saying Superman should just fly up and snap someone's neck in a fight.

That's not Superman in a battle that's you with his abilities.

[Fan]

Yeah it's the same problem I have with someone saying Superman should just fly up and snap someone's neck in a fight.

That's not Superman in a battle that's you with his abilities.

Depends on the Superman and what era you take him from. Like, Superman IS capable of killing, it's just an absolute last resort.

He also DOES do heat vision lobotomies. He's used it against Doomsday and Manchester Black to name just a few.

I mean even in Allstar Superman he's the guy who'll prepare for a fight and bring an anti red sun suit when he knows an enemy is the type to use it.

But yeah, he wont snap someone's neck unless it's 90's super mullet Superman.

[Traab]

Depends on the Superman and what era you take him from. Like, Superman IS capable of killing, it's just an absolute last resort.

He also DOES do heat vision lobotomies. He's used it against Doomsday and Manchester Black to name just a few.

I mean even in Allstar Superman he's the guy who'll prepare for a fight and bring an anti red sun suit when he knows an enemy is the type to use it.

But yeah, he wont snap someone's neck unless it's 90's super mullet Superman.

And all that aside, "he wouldnt do that" isnt a valid excuse because we already know that the majority of the heroes in these death battles "wouldnt do that" But to make them work, we have to use the assumption that this time they wold fight to kill using their abilities to their fullest. Otherwise we wold have to stick to mainly villains or else half would end like this. "They make up and discover some evil entity known as Screw Attack forced this fight, so they band together and burn down the studios."

[Anteros]

And all that aside, "he wouldnt do that" isnt a valid excuse because we already know that the majority of the heroes in these death battles "wouldnt do that" But to make them work, we have to use the assumption that this time they wold fight to kill using their abilities to their fullest. Otherwise we wold have to stick to mainly villains or else half would end like this. "They make up and discover some evil entity known as Screw Attack forced this fight, so they band together and burn down the studios."

I think it is still fair though. Even a Superman that's bloodlusted isn't going to lobotomize his enemy from space as an opening move. That's simply not how he fights, even when he's going all out and it would be smart to do so. Just like Cloud isn't going to stand back and cast confusion (or whatever) 99 times in a row to open the fight. It's just not how the characters behave. Even though you're changing them to make them fit the Death Battle narrative, I do think you should retain their personality and fighting style as much as possible, or it defeats the point of using the characters in the first place.



In DBZ people blow hot smoke all the time about how strong they are. I've said this before, Cell's Kamehameha would not have destroyed the Solar System, and saying that you can destroy the universe with shockwaves doesn't make it true. When it actually happens, then we'll have a fight.

Statements aren't a valid measurement of a character's ability in DBZ or in ANY canon.

Why? Because you don't think it should? We've discussed this before, but you don't get to arbitrarily decide what is and isn't canon to fit your narrative. What makes your opinion more valid than multiple actual gods in the setting, who all have omniscience?

[Fan]

I think it is still fair though. Even a Superman that's bloodlusted isn't going to lobotomize his enemy from space as an opening move. That's simply not how he fights, even when he's going all out and it would be smart to do so. Just like Cloud isn't going to stand back and cast confusion (or whatever) 99 times in a row to open the fight. It's just not how the characters behave. Even though you're changing them to make them fit the Death Battle narrative, I do think you should retain their personality and fighting style as much as possible, or it defeats the point of using the characters in the first place.




Why? Because you don't think it should? We've discussed this before, but you don't get to arbitrarily decide what is and isn't canon to fit your narrative. What makes your opinion more valid than multiple actual gods in the setting, who all have omniscience?

None of the Kai's have omniscience, and again. People saying things doesn't make it true. Same with Beerus and Whis, neither are omniscient. Did you confuse them for Gods from another series?

There are scenes in dragonball when Krillin says that he thinks Chichi might be the actual strongest in the universe, and he can sense ki so clearly he must be right, right?

It's asinine to even insinuate that character statements are comparable to feats. This isn't "Deciding What's Canon" it's going by what the characters actually do on screen, I'm sorry that doesn't work for your argument but it's how things are. You don't get to randomly add abilities to characters when it doesn't add up to what's done on screen.

Just like we don't get to give Superman his "That was like 15 suns exploding in his face" feat, we don't get to give Goku his "The shockwaves from their battle could tear the universe apart!" or Cell's "THIS KAMEHAMEHA WILL DESTROY THE SOLAR SYSTEM" feat.

[Anteros]

None of the Kai's have omniscience, and again. People saying things doesn't make it true. Same with Beerus and Whis, neither are omniscience.

There are scenes in dragonball when Krillin says that he thinks Chichi might be the actual strongest in the universe, and he can sense ki so clearly he must be right, right?

It's asinine to even insinuate that character statements are comparable to feats. This isn't "Deciding What's Canon" it's going by what the characters actually do on screen, I'm sorry that doesn't work for your argument but it's how things are.

Yes, clearly because one character said something in jest it means all statements are invalid forever. That's fantastic logic. This is not a case of a character going "hahaha I'll hit you with my Universe Buster Attack!™" It's a character throwing a punch and an impartial observer (god) saying "That last punch almost shook apart the universe. If he throws another like that everything will be destroyed."

I'm fine if you want to disagree on what you consider canon. We don't have to agree on everything, but don't act like you're some authority figure that gets to decide for everyone.

[Fan]

Yes, clearly because one character said something in jest it means all statements are invalid forever. That's fantastic logic. This is not a case of a character going "hahaha I'll hit you with my Universe Buster Attack!™" It's a character throwing a punch and an impartial observer (god) saying "That last punch almost shook apart the universe. If he throws another like that everything will be destroyed."

I'm fine if you want to disagree on what you consider canon, but don't act like you're some authority figure that gets to decide for everyone.

That's fine, you can keep going by statements that aren't at all reinforced by what actually happens and I'll be over here in "Actually happened" land.

[Seppl]

"That last punch almost shook apart the universe. If he throws another like that everything will be destroyed."This or similar things have probably been said a million times in real life about real life fighters.

[Anteros]

This or similar things have probably been said a million times in real life about real life fighters.

By God? After a shockwave from the last hit is literally shown on screen shaking the entire universe?

Context matters. He's not saying it in the context of "wow he's so strong" he's saying "we have to stop this fight before they kill us all."

[Forum Explorer]

The Link vs Cloud debate bothers me more as time goes on because the justification they use to say Tifa's limit break feats are situational and don't count towards her actual strength is the same thing they ignored when they said Link's bracelets, which only let him lift large rocks, gives him super strength when blocking, despite the bracelets not having any effect on combat whatsoever.

The more I think about it, Link shouldn't even be on the same level as Cloud. Link takes his opponents down through exploiting weak points and cunning, not raw power like Cloud. Cloud has canon feats of him cutting through vehicles and buildings.

Link fights a dragon by leaping on the dragon's back, throwing a bomb in its mouth, and hitting the weak point for massive damage. Cloud fights a dragon by tanking the strongest attack its got and slicing the dragon in half.

That's more something I have a problem with Yang vs Tifa, then Link vs Cloud.

I mean, when I first saw it, Yang was an unknown, but not that I've watched RWBY, I know they completely misrepresented Yang's durability. Yeah she can tank blows that send her through pillars, and that does make her stronger. But that's because all Hunters in RWBY have a shield that is worn down by blows of any strength, and once it's gone she no more durable then any other human.

And if there is any fight they'd be bias'd towards, it's that one.

[Anteros]

That's more something I have a problem with Yang vs Tifa, then Link vs Cloud.

I mean, when I first saw it, Yang was an unknown, but not that I've watched RWBY, I know they completely misrepresented Yang's durability. Yeah she can tank blows that send her through pillars, and that does make her stronger. But that's because all Hunters in RWBY have a shield that is worn down by blows of any strength, and once it's gone she no more durable then any other human.

And if there is any fight they'd be bias'd towards, it's that one.

I view this one as an example of a time they were just so wrong no one even bothers to debate it.

[DiscipleofBob]

That's more something I have a problem with Yang vs Tifa, then Link vs Cloud.

I mean, when I first saw it, Yang was an unknown, but not that I've watched RWBY, I know they completely misrepresented Yang's durability. Yeah she can tank blows that send her through pillars, and that does make her stronger. But that's because all Hunters in RWBY have a shield that is worn down by blows of any strength, and once it's gone she no more durable then any other human.

And if there is any fight they'd be bias'd towards, it's that one.

True. I'd probably still pick Yang personally, but it does depend on how long Yang's shield could actually last and if it can survive a limit break.

To be fair, Tifa does get hampered using the Premium Heart. Even though it's her canon ultimate weapon and she uses it in Dissidia, it still loses all its power when the limit gauge is zero. That's a HUGE flaw. Speaking of limit breaks, getting all seven limit breaks to actually work at once requires some serious player skill or a lot of luck, so it's probably generous for them to even let her pull off a perfect run (although it is cinematically satisfying). Personally I think Zell might have represented the FF brawlers better with his ability to spam limit breaks, but then that depends on whether junctioning a GF for stat boosts and abilities would qualify as "outside help" according to DeathBattle.

[Misery Esquire]

By God? After a shockwave from the last hit is literally shown on screen shaking the entire universe?

Context matters. He's not saying it in the context of "wow he's so strong" he's saying "we have to stop this fight before they kill us all."

Which god? Kami? King Yemma? King Kai? Supreme Kai? Beerus? (Whis?)

There seems to be an ongoing growth on who's actually #1 god in the series, with each of them becoming less and less impressive for being declared #1. You're just kind of waiting for the next level of unheard-of god-figure when Goku goes to fight something stronger. Because there will always be something stronger, so there will always eventually be new supporting cast who replace the previous cast as relevant - though we might see the old crew for nostalgia's sake. Or for some new upgrade. Hi, Kami.

[Lost Demiurge]

Eh...

I'd put them as mostly fair. Bias does creep in, but it's usually not too bad. Even with the ones I disagree with, I could put it down as "Well, he caught him on a bad day," or "Eh, there's been enough bad continuity that I could see this, sure."

So yeah. There's a few that seem borked up to me, but on the whole, I feel they do well. And they're almost always entertaining, so it's worth the price of admission. :D

[Lord Raziere]

*finally watches the Superman Vs Goku rematch, as closure....and because I had nothing better to do*

they're right.....I wouldn't want a Goku with no limits to surpass....guess its time to just move on, and just be happy that they made Batman lose to Spiderman....

Superman winning, I can forgive. but I'm never going to let go of Batman prep-time bull being unacceptable. I can accept Superman being so broken that no one can beat him, but Batman has just gotten ridiculous.

[Devonix]

I still dissagree with Cell saying that the attack could destroy the Solar System. You wanna know why? Because of what the Kamehameha actually does. It's a singular attack that at it's largest is a few meters in diameter. These attacks blow up planets by destabilizing their cores so that they explode. You can't do that to a Solar System. His attack isn't even going to Hit most of the planets in the system unless this was some once in a life time event where all of the Dragon Ball planets were perfectly aligned

Now if he was trying to blow up the sun causing it to go Supernova that would make sense, as it was what he was stating was impossible using the logic of the series.

And as for the whole couple of punches destroying the universe. Flat out bull****. Later on Beerus talks to Goku showing him a fighter many many times more powerful than Goku. Beerus and Punta have fought. And if they're both more powerful than Goku how come the universe still exists?

[Anteros]

Maybe Whis stepped in like he did in the latest episode where Beerus and Champa almost destroyed the universe again?

People seem to have this attitude of "I don't like this, or I think it's silly so I'm not going to believe what the story is telling me." Meanwhile we're perfectly willing to believe when a character says a book has infinite pages and Superman picks it up...because reasons? Because we like Superman more?

Just because you or I think something is ridiculous or don't like it does not make it non-canon. We are not the author. Call it bad writing if you want, but don't change the story just to suit your whims.

[Devonix]

Maybe Whis stepped in like he did in the latest episode where Beerus and Champa almost destroyed the universe again?

People seem to have this attitude of "I don't like this, or I think it's silly so I'm not going to believe what the story is telling me." Meanwhile we're perfectly willing to believe when a character says a book has infinite pages and Superman picks it up...because reasons? Because we like Superman more?

Just because you or I think something is ridiculous or don't like it does not make it non-canon. We are not the author. Call it bad writing if you want, but don't change the story just to suit your whims.

I've got no problem with silliness. I've got a problem with contradictions. If Goku and Beerus fighting threatens to destroy the universe. Then by their own rules No one of that level of power or higher can fight.

This entire tournament shouldn't even be able to happen because If Goku is facing someone able to pose a threat then the battle should stand a chance of destroying the Universe again. And like Beerus said. People Stronger than Goku are participating in it.

You can't say that A=1 and then have A = 8 later in the story.

[Anteros]

I've got no problem with silliness. I've got a problem with contradictions. If Goku and Beerus fighting threatens to destroy the universe. Then by their own rules No one of that level of power or higher can fight.

Sure they can. There's plenty of options.

They can fight outside the universe (since that's apparently a thing in Dragonball)
Their fight can be contained by someone even more powerful like Whis
They can intentionally focus their blows so they don't accidentally destroy the universe like Goku does at the end of his fight.
They can fight without going all out.
Etc.

Also, the Manga is a bit ahead of the anime and judging by it the "even stronger than Goku" character Beerus mentions seems very likely to be a joke character anyway.

[Devonix]

Sure they can. There's plenty of options.

They can fight outside the universe (since that's apparently a thing in Dragonball)
Their fight can be contained by someone even more powerful like Whis
They can intentionally focus their blows so they don't accidentally destroy the universe like Goku does at the end of his fight.
They can fight without going all out.
Etc.

Once you open a can of worms like this you have to keep a close eye on it. and unless someone flat out states that they are doing something to contain these "Universe destroying shockwaves" Then it's not gonna work for me. I'd be fine with something like the Super Dragonballs protecting the area with a magic aura. But please say something about it.

And as for Fighting without going all out. That would completely remove the ability for a villain to show up later outside of the tournament setting. Because a villain IS going to go all out, and our heroes will go all out to stop him. Otherwise there is no show.

[Anteros]

Once you open a can of worms like this you have to keep a close eye on it. and unless someone flat out states that they are doing something to contain these "Universe destroying shockwaves" Then it's not gonna work for me. I'd be fine with something like the Super Dragonballs protecting the area with a magic aura. But please say something about it.

And as for Fighting without going all out. That would completely remove the ability for a villain to show up later outside of the tournament setting. Because a villain IS going to go all out, and our heroes will go all out to stop him. Otherwise there is no show.

Well presumably a villain isn't going to want to destroy the universe he lives in either, but I do agree that it's silly in principle and also bad writing. We've already established though that Goku works to contain these shockwaves in his fight with Beerus, so I think it's fair to assume he's doing so in future fights as well, even if they don't explicitly tell us so.

[Lord Raziere]

Superman does the power-restraint punch thing to so.....he isn't different from Goku in that regard....

I mean, remember when the Justice Lord Superman fought Doomsday? and punched in a way that caused a shockwave that shattered all the glass around the city? imagine that, but taken up to everything. thats what both Superman AND Goku are holding themselves back from doing, so if you can't really blame either side on holding back their power or neither of them are valid as far as that goes.

(I'm not arguing whether one or the other would win, and am not going to anymore, I'm just saying that considering the level of power they both fight at, we have to take the authors word for their capabilities at some point or force the the authors to start conjuring some infinite battlefield dimension with no life on it that the characters can destroy all they want just to prove a point, because thats the only way to demonstrate it to some peoples rigorous standards without it being a story where the people involved cause a massive loss of life)

[Devonix]

I'm not talking about people being stronger or weaker. I'm just saying that DBZ introduced an element there and I hope that they don't just forget about it.

As for shockwaves from Superman's punches they've been pretty consistant.

[ChaosNationX]

I think some battles are fair others are not like the goku vs superman one they forgot one key thing.The katchin shard it is named as the strongest metal in the universe and goku easily lifted it without going super saiyan.

[Misery Esquire]

I think some battles are fair others are not like the goku vs superman one they forgot one key thing.The katchin shard it is named as the strongest metal in the universe and goku easily lifted it without going super saiyan.

Er. ...The strength of a metal doesn't really decide its weight?

[Devonix]

Er. ...The strength of a metal doesn't really decide its weight?

Yeah Adamantium is the hardest known metal in the Marvel universe. And any normal person can lift it.

[Anteros]

I believe they refer to it as the densest metal in the universe, which would imply it is heavy. We don't know how heavy though, so it's basically useless for figuring out how strong he is.

[Seppl]

I believe they refer to it as the densest metal in the universe, which would imply it is heavy. We don't know how heavy though, so it's basically useless for figuring out how strong he is.Still does not mean anything. I can lift the densest metal in our universe just fine. I could even lift a black hole if you find me a tiny one.

[Lord Raziere]

Still does not mean anything. I can lift the densest metal in our universe just fine. I could even lift a black hole if you find me a tiny one.

....is lifting a small black hole safe for your hand? because for some reason I doubt it. it makes me suspicious that it might start sucking up my cells or something.

[Lethologica]

Still does not mean anything. I can lift the densest metal in our universe just fine. I could even lift a black hole if you find me a tiny one.
Densest metal is one thing, assuming it doesn't decay. You can't lift a black hole, though.

[BWR]

Densest metal is one thing, assuming it doesn't decay. You can't lift a black hole, though.

I think we all know what he meant.

[Lethologica]

Clearly not.

[Seppl]

....is lifting a small black hole safe for your hand? because for some reason I doubt it. it makes me suspicious that it might start sucking up my cells or something.I would need some kind of magic handle, otherwise the black hole would go right through my hand, unless the it were charged¹. Might also hurt a bit, as all the force would be applied to a very small area of my hand. But overall, the problem would be the intangibility of the black hole, not its actual weight or density. If you gave me the means to interact with a 50 pound black hole I could lift it, no problem.




¹: Don't nail me on the part with the charge. It is known that black holes can have a charge but as far as I know it is not really understood how black holes and electromagnetism interact. Or if it is, my knowledge is not up to date.

[Mr. Pants]

I thought Zoro vs. Erza was biased as hell. That's why I hated it with a passion. I didn't think even Toph vs. Gaara was that biased though I didn't agree with the outcome.

[Mato]

I'm late but...

Do you think that ScrewAttack Death Battle are fair or bias?Biaist.

I think every winner is determined by marketing decisions. An easy to pick on example of Goku vs Superman and all of their dispositions aside one huge element is they set forth Goku can resist the same amount of force as he can put out and then they casually admit Goku could have blown up the sun but Superman's punch that could only break a moon won. They gloss over this horrendous error by claiming it was a punching contest and that in no way actually helps their argument and it's something you'd expect to be removed in the first proofread of the script. It's just so terrible it's inhuman to think they missed it. And then they met with TeamFourStar and produced a video where Takahata101 says Ben's face is stupid to debunk the winner. The video closes out with everyone going nuts and attacking each other while Ben just sits there with a smug grin on his face. It's a direct parody of things, the DB producers knew exactly what they were getting into and planned to use the negative publicity to generate views and everyone dumb enough to sign up on their forums to post really just helps generate popularity and site traffic, so in the end Ben "wins".

And it's also that model that has us talking about them. For example, Bat In The Sun has made some really awesome live action vs fights including the White Ranger vs Scorpion fight where they brought in Jason David Lee. They determine their winner using an "honest" method, simply vote for them and popularity wins. ScrewAttck even has a show called One Minute Melee based on rule of cool and the winner doesn't mean much, you're there to watch the Newgrounds flash-era of pixelated fight scenes. But who discusses those? They are not wrong, so not us.

[Lemmy]

To be fair, we have no idea what kind of power that laser had... Freeza's army does have technology to give Freeza binoic implants that are even more powerful than his original body. Even assuming the laser's energy isn't almost completely spent when going through Goku's body, it wouldn't destroy the planet, just go through it.

I've seen Superman being hurt by lightning and bombs, while Goku routinely resist planet-destroying attacks since his first fight against Vegeta. And the "infinite strength" thing makes no sense, if he has infinite strength, so does General Zod, so why doesn't Zod insta-kill every other DC superhero? And the creature with supposedly infinite mass Superman was carrying would generate infinite gravity... Do Wonder Woman and Shaazam also have infinite strength? Do their clothes and weapons have infinite durability?

Finally, we have no idea where DB characters get their energy (some characters live by with just water and are still capable of getting enough energy to explode a sun), but Superman's power are a result of him absorbing solar energy, so his maximum power is limited to, at most, however much energy the Sun can provide him, which is, of course, not infinite.

Honestly, I can see a case being made for Superman defeating Goku, but DB didn't do it at all in either episode.

[Mr. Pants]

I actually thought Goku vs. Superman was good...he's accomplished things that physics don't allow so I understand him winning...having said that I think Goku might be strong enough to defeat him now...I think he should fight someone other than Superman since he's already fought Superman twice.

[Rynjin]

Goku being damaged by that laser (and recently a bullet) seems to be an attempt by the movies and Super to retcon how Ki works. It only works "If you're prepared to fight" now, so taking someone off guard can hit them as if they were normal...ignoring the fact that Krillin and everyone else used to have bullets bounce off them in Dragonball as a running gag, starting with Bulma popping a cap in a 10 year old's ass in the very first chapter/episode and having it bounce off, to stuff like Bad!Launch spraying her Uzi everywhere out of nowhere and having everybody act like they were getting hit with a squirt gun.

The theme seems to be "Goku lets his guard down too much" and it's apparently a lesson he's supposed to be learning to not be so relaxed and CONSTANT VIGILANCE and all that jazz.

The problem on the other side is that immensely long running characters like Superman are inconsistently written from story to story, media to media, and even issue to issue sometimes.

The Superman of Action Comics #1 is weaker than the Superman of the Justice League animated series is weaker than the current run of Superman is arguably weaker than Silver Age Superman.

[Reddish Mage]

They took the strongest version of Superman against the strongest version of Goku at the end of the official stories.

It's a fair comparison. Could they have taken the "average" superman in all media whatsoever (or in comics) to an "average" Goku in DBZ? Maybe...but that's never the show's format.

It typically ends with a paper rock scissors "strongest attack" vs "strongest defense" and counter-punch type ending.

The meta-narrative is also compelling. Superman's stories often have HIM as the Stronger Being or even the Strongest Being, with the constraints on Superman being self-imposed. Goku's major stories are always about Goku having to strive and become stronger and achieve the next level to take on the next opponent.

The idea is that archetype of the "Strongest-Being-Bar-None" beats the "Always-Striving-Until-Beating-Stronger-Opponent" archetype.

I would argue, however, based on meta-narrative type thinking, that, a more appropriate narrative, given the comics, is that a comic matchup would have Goku being defeated, humbled, and then having to train himself until he becomes Ultimate-Goku, achieving the Super-Saiyan-Final-Infinite-Form.

The story would end with Goku pulling out a blast capable of destroying entire universes and finally defeating Superman.

However, the rules of Death-battle is always "to the death in a single match" so Goku would be killed in an initial encounter to the death.

Now if they bent the rules and brought Goku back to life (if only there was some sort of mechanism from Goku's own comic story that would suggest that such a move was reasonable... oh wait) and Goku gets to go into training-mode...clearly the rules of comics dictate that Goku wins in a rematch!

[Lemmy]

They took the strongest version of Superman against the strongest version of Goku at the end of the official stories.
Actually, no, they didn't. They took Goku from a rather early episode of DBZ and then simply used Super Saiyan multiplication formula... And in the second episode, they just ignored all logic and went with "Superman has infinite strength!" which makes no sense whatsoever.

Like I said, I think a good argument can be made that Superman is indeed more powerful than Goku... But Death Battle certainly didn't do it.

[Kato]

I thought Zoro vs. Erza was biased as hell. That's why I hated it with a passion. I didn't think even Toph vs. Gaara was that biased though I didn't agree with the outcome.

Holy thread necromancy... We have a perfectly healthy DB discussion thread going on.. If you really NEED to have this talk again. Though I think every sensible argument has been made.

[Knaight]

Biased? Not really. Broadly innumerate and full of staggeringly dumb arguments? Absolutely.

[CorvusRavenesqu]

I was going to say that Dragonball fans were real whiners....but this one gives me great pause....and question what they could have chosen to look at even in a bias and selective fashion.


I mean....Kirby....really?

In my opinion, a lot of the fans are whiners too and a little ignorant I mean the fans of the channel by the way. I watched the Buu saga with my little bro but I'm not a fan. But I was curious about some factors, so I asked why if I recall they said outside interference is not allowed why was Kirby allowed the warp star and why Buu couldn't survive the sun if cooler did albeit as a head according to my bro I didn't swear, no name calling or what have you, and the answer I got was and I quote oh look another butthurt fanboy. Kirby won, get over it. And you can't count cooler surviving as a head because the movies aren't canon. End quote so the ignorant part is that he called me a butthurt fanboy. What are they too dumb to come up with a new insult? Then was the movies aren't canon excuse, neither is Kirby vs. Buu and I'm pretty sure I've seen screwattack give non canon powers to combatants before. By the way before I vanish into thin air: cloud vs. Link: apparently link has the memories and battle experience of all links before him? Then why does he need to be reminded about who Ganondorf is every game? No, I'm not butthurt I'm a link fan the only thing I know about cloud is spike hair ridiculous sword and something about materia whatever that is...on that topic if link has memories and experience from all links, why didn't Zelda get that excuse in Zelda vs. Peach? That sleep sheep or whatever it was was B.SS OK bye! Ninja Vanish! Poof! OK that didn't work...I'll just walk out I guess...

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: This thread died in the death battle.