Getting into a PrC on a technicality. Possible?

[Droopy McCool]

So some friends and I were discussing this, and came to multiple conclussions. Thus, I present the playground with the problem, and while it may be stated somewhere, we can't find it. Consider the following:

Let's say I'm playing an 8th level Druid (can Wildshape large) and I want to take my 9th level in a PrC that has the requirement Size: Large or Larger. As a human, I do not qualify on account of being a medium creature; but can I Wildshape into a large creature, then take the level? Some of my friends say yes, but you'd lose the class features when you return to medium size, while the others say no.

I know it could be done with Enlarge Person + Permanency, but the point is to stay as a medium base creature. (Perhaps that then Reduce Person + Permanency after taking the level would work, but I'll let the question ride.)

What says the playground?

McCool

[Inevitability]

The moment you stop being a Large creature, you no longer meet all the prerequisites. Complete Warrior tells us that at the point you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose most benefits.

So unless you are willing to stay in a Large wild shape form all day long (not unreasonable for a melee druid), you're going to lack your class features most of the time.

[nedz]

The moment you stop being a Large creature, you no longer meet all the prerequisites. Complete Warrior tells us that at the point you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose most benefits.

So unless you are willing to stay in a Large wild shape form all day long (not unreasonable for a melee druid), you're going to lack your class features most of the time.

This is my view too, though people are going to complain RAW-wise that the CW rule only applies to CW PrCs.

[ApologyFestival]

This is my view too, though people are going to complain RAW-wise that the CW rule only applies to CW PrCs.
Accepting this interpretation makes a few prestige classes self-disqualify. From the SRD alone, dragon disciples must not be half-dragon, but their capstone makes them half-dragons, so they no longer qualify to be dragon disciples, which in turn deactivates all of their class features, so they are no longer half-dragons, so now they qualify to be dragon disciples, and their capstone makes them half-dragons, so they no longer qualify... I could go on.

Silly as it may sound, I think any RAW interpretation is likely to cause problems. For what it's worth, I think it's fine to get prestige class features so long as your character can demonstrably meet its entry requirements for the overwhelming majority of the time in the normal state of play without outside assistance, even if they may temporarily be disqualified, but that's entirely opinion and houseruling on my part.

[nedz]

Well you can take the view that Schroedinger PrCs are a rules dysfunction — which you fix with a house-rule — and yes, they are very common.

[Anlashok]

Well you can take the view that Schroedinger PrCs are a rules dysfunction — which you fix with a house-rule — and yes, they are very common.

You can also take the view that if there are two potential RAW ways to interpret a rule and one of them causes multiple severe dysfunctions and the other doesn't that it seems reasonable to favor the latter. Ambiguity favoring functionality over nonfunctionality seems only logical.

[Hiro Quester]

Sometimes the reason for yes or no on these things is the DM's judgment about balance, or coolness, being fun to play, or just overpowered.

For instance, I'm playing a melee Druid 11/monk 1 who spends much of his time in tiger wildshape. I asked about taking the multiattack feat. My character is already somewhat overpowered, my AC too high and pouncing for up to 7 attacks/round. For the monsters to challenge me, be able to hit my AC and stay alive more than a few rounds, the monsters might too easily kill the party rogue or barbarian.

So mostly for this reason the DM said no to my taking multiattack, because officially I don't meet the prerequisites of three or more natural attacks. But he said at 11+ BAB, I would qualify, having three unarmed strikes even out wildshape, if I still wanted to take it. At that stage the differences in BAB total hit points between me and the barbarian will make it less of an issue.

[Necroticplague]

So mostly for this reason the DM said no to my taking multiattack, because officially I don't meet the prerequisites of three or more natural attacks. But he said at 11+ BAB, I would qualify, having three unarmed strikes even out wildshape, if I still wanted to take it. At that stage the differences in BAB total hit points between me and the barbarian will make it less of an issue.
Er, that's not how unarmed strikes work. An unarmed strike is one weapon. Getting iteratives attack with it no more gives you multiple unarmed strikes than getting multiple attacks with a greatsword means you have multiple greatswords.

Back to the OP's topic: yes, you can do exactly that (and I've seen people do this with Warhulk to emulate The Hulk, by ditching the No Time to Think when out of combat). The rules for no longer qualifying for a PRC are in Complete Warrior (and regardless of what some people may say, apply everywhere, because the relevant text says the blanket 'prestige classes' not 'martial prestige classes'). When you aren't large, you'd lose everything from the PRC except for HD and related progressions (skills, BaB, saves).

[Apricot]

I'd rely on common sense and DM rulings for this one. From a fluff standpoint, what's going on is that the Druid is getting better attuned to his larger forms and is basing his potential off of them. This means that he gets unique benefits as one of those larger forms, as per the PrC. If there are abilities that work equally well as a Medium creature, there's no reason that they shouldn't stay, but if there's a class feature such as "Goomba Stomp," it certainly shouldn't work if you Wildshape into a Fine creature at later levels. Maybe, if you wanted to add extra flavor to things, the Druid could be assumed as having changed his base form to a Large creature, and can thereafter Wildshape into his former humanoid self for things like talking. That might be a little weird, though.

But then again, I tend to favor tweaking RAW to make the game more sensible and enjoyable.

[nedz]

You can also take the view that if there are two potential RAW ways to interpret a rule and one of them causes multiple severe dysfunctions and the other doesn't that it seems reasonable to favor the latter. Ambiguity favoring functionality over nonfunctionality seems only logical.

Except that the rule is in two of the Completes, IIRC, and these contain several Schroedinger PrCs anyway: so you end up having to make house-rules either way.

[Hiro Quester]

Er, that's not how unarmed strikes work. An unarmed strike is one weapon. Getting iteratives attack with it no more gives you multiple unarmed strikes than getting multiple attacks with a greatsword means you have multiple greatswords.


Yeah... I know. But the reasoning made sense. Letting the druid take multiattack at 9th level would be more unbalanced than getting it at, say, 15th level.

And that was my point. Sometimes the fluff of the concept is cool or fun enough that the DM will allow one interpretation of an ambiguity. And other times sticking to the less liberal reading of the rule is a good thing, for reasons of making the game balanced, and fun for everyone playing

[Segev]

I tend to - and this is definitely a house rule, because of the inconsistency - assume that a PrC is a "schroedinger's PrC" if it's more fun and interesting that way. (The biggest example being War Hulk.) I would generally say that any PrC which "self-disqualifies" doesn't suffer this flaw on the grounds that it's a class feature, and no PrC is designed to remove itself.

This is an area where fluff and narrative should probably dominate, and as such is a negotiation between player and DM to achieve the kind of character the player wants to play.

[Psyren]

You can also take the view that if there are two potential RAW ways to interpret a rule and one of them causes multiple severe dysfunctions and the other doesn't that it seems reasonable to favor the latter. Ambiguity favoring functionality over nonfunctionality seems only logical.

But the "logical" approach cuts both ways. You could just as rationally argue that a PrC's requirements are things that all members of that PrC are expected to have, not just the people entering it for the first time. It's logical to assume for instance that if a Sacred Knight of Holy Heaven PrC required a Good alignment, that it wouldn't keep giving its powers to someone who was good just long enough to get through initiation followed by butchering all his classmates and looting the temple.

Or to use a more concrete example - BoED does not have the CW or CArc lines, yet nearly all of its PrCs require exalted feats. If you turn evil, it's reasonable to expect that you should lose the benefits of the PrC at that point too.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is a mess. Ask your DM.

[Droopy McCool]

I figured this would spark another "self-disqualifying PrCs" discussion, but I needed to get an answer anyway. I do want to note that I was in fact trying to emulate the Hulk here. My actual thought build would be Human Druid 12/Barbarian 1/War Hulk 7 (both Druid and Barb would use the PHB2 ACFs) with no Wis score to speak of and not taking the animal companion. Decent Str, High Dex and Int. For gameplay, stay Human until Berserker Strength is activated, then Shapeshift (Swift action, not spell completion or casting, works within RAW for Rage limitations). So general consensus is...you can take the level this way? This was purely hypothetical, but interesting nonetheless.

But, now I wonder about that method I said earlier. Would Enlarge Person + Permanency + level up + Reduce Person + Permanency be fine? and then shapeshifting into a large creature would give me the class features back?

McCool

[Fouredged Sword]

Purely as a DM call, I would allow the above build to function. You have class features that make you large at will. There is a DM call required to determine if you gain and lose no time to think as you shrink and grow.

Another interesting question is can a large character use wildshape or some other ability to take on a medium or small form to qualify out of his PRC and thus regain his ability to use skills?

[Necroticplague]

I figured this would spark another "self-disqualifying PrCs" discussion, but I needed to get an answer anyway. I do want to note that I was in fact trying to emulate the Hulk here. My actual thought build would be Human Druid 12/Barbarian 1/War Hulk 7 (both Druid and Barb would use the PHB2 ACFs) with no Wis score to speak of and not taking the animal companion. Decent Str, High Dex and Int. So general consensus is...you can take the level this way? This was purely hypothetical, but interesting nonetheless.

But, now I wonder about that method I said earlier. Would Enlarge Person + Permanency + level up + Reduce Person + Permanency be fine? and then shapeshifting into a large creature would give me the class features back?

McCool

Yes, you could level that way. You could become Large via shapeshift, then you would qualify. (by the PHB2 ACF, I assume you mean the one that replaces Wild Shape with Shapeshift, right?, for druid, at least). The whole deal about screwing around with Enlarge and Reduce person is uneeded for several reasons:
1. You only have to qualify when you level, not permanently.
2. The Reduce Person part can be replaced by dispelling the Enlarge Person.
It'd probably be easier to go straight barbarian->warhulk, use Goliath and Mountain Rage to qualify, if you want to streamline the build. Also, not sure the low WIS or high DEX are very representative. The Hulk's only real dex-based things are his high base land speed and initiative.. However, Hulk had several abilities that seem to indicate a very high Wisdom mod(his own sheer anger shrugs off most mental effects, he can spot normally invisible astral projections).



Another interesting question is can a large character use wildshape or some other ability to take on a medium or small form to qualify out of his PRC and thus regain his ability to use skills?

Yes. You no longer qualify for the PRC, you lose all abilities except HD, BaB, Skills, and Saves. That would include the No Time to Think (but also, well, everything else, like the STR boost, and useful multi-hit abilities).

[Beheld]

The rules for no longer qualifying for a PRC are in Complete Warrior (and regardless of what some people may say, apply everywhere, because the relevant text says the blanket 'prestige classes' not 'martial prestige classes'). When you aren't large, you'd lose everything from the PRC except for HD and related progressions (skills, BaB, saves).

Or in the alternative, you can pretend that you played 3e before 3.5, and you can recognize where those rules actually came from:

1) It used to be the case that all PrCs had to maintain qualification, this was changed int 3.5.
2) Complete Warrior Copy Pasted the material from Sword and Fist with no change, because thinking is hard.

Also, as far as arguing that it applies to all PrCs because it doesn't say "martial prestige classes", the rule is under the section called "THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES"

I don't know of any way they could have possibly made it clearer that the rules under the heading "THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES" applied to Martial Prestige classes.

[Droopy McCool]

Yes, you could level that way. You could become Large via shapeshift, then you would qualify. (by the PHB2 ACF, I assume you mean the one that replaces Wild Shape with Shapeshift, right?, for druid, at least). The whole deal about screwing around with Enlarge and Reduce person is uneeded for several reasons:
1. You only have to qualify when you level, not permanently.
2. The Reduce Person part can be replaced by dispelling the Enlarge Person.
It'd probably be easier to go straight barbarian->warhulk, use Goliath and Mountain Rage to qualify, if you want to streamline the build. Also, not sure the low WIS or high DEX are very representative. The Hulk's only real dex-based things are his high base land speed and initiative.. However, Hulk had several abilities that seem to indicate a very high Wisdom mod(his own sheer anger shrugs off most mental effects, he can spot normally invisible astral projections).

Yes shapeshift ACF
1. I thought using Enlarge Person to qualify then shrinking in a few minutes wouldn't work.
2. Forgot Permanency could be dispelled.
I thought about using Goliath, but I'm not just shooting for the Hulk side, I would like to get the Bruce Banner side of the character too. I dumped Wis because of the spell casting, but I guess nothing requires you to use your spells. High Dex was to emulate Banner rather than high Str, and I'd get a massive (+26 at 20th) Str boost from the shapeshift/berserker strength/PrC anyway. The problem with what your saying is War Hulk can't use Wis-based skills anyway, so high or low Wis won't matter for when I become large (other than Will saves.)

I guess Bruce Banner stats would look like this (32pb) if I wanted to show his smarts off, and low Str/Dex won't matter when he becomes the Hulk:
Str-10 Dex-12 Con-14 Int-18 Wis-12 Cha-8

McCool

[Deadline]

I thought about using Goliath, but I'm not just shooting for the Hulk side, I would like to get the Bruce Banner side of the character too. I dumped Wis because of the spell casting, but I guess nothing requires you to use your spells. High Dex was to emulate Banner rather than high Str, and I'd get a massive (+26 at 20th) Str boost from the shapeshift/berserker strength/PrC anyway. The problem with what your saying is War Hulk can't use Wis-based skills anyway, so high or low Wis won't matter for when I become large (other than Will saves.)

I guess Bruce Banner stats would look like this (32pb) if I wanted to show his smarts off, and low Str/Dex won't matter when he becomes the Hulk:
Str-10 Dex-12 Con-14 Int-18 Wis-12 Cha-8

McCool

The variations on the Hulk build that I've seen generally go like this (assuming your DM is cool with only getting the benefits of Warhulk while you are large size):

1. Be a Halfling or Human.
2. Be an Artificer or Factotum primarily, but take a brief break to pick up Stoneblessed (Goliath).
3. Now that you can count as a Goliath for most purposes, take your first level of Barbarian as the Goliath substitution level. This make you large sized when raging.
4. Rage and take your levels in Warhulk.
5. Now when you get angry, you hulk out (grow to large size) and wreck face. When you are not angry, you are Smarty McSmarty pants.

[Necroticplague]

Also, as far as arguing that it applies to all PrCs because it doesn't say "martial prestige classes", the rule is under the section called "THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES"

I don't know of any way they could have possibly made it clearer that the rules under the heading "THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES" applied to Martial Prestige classes.
And? Headers aren't part of the body text. The relevant rule itself only refers to 'a prestige class'. If you were right and headers had some form of RAW bearing, then under the exact same logic, warforged, aasimar, elans, teiflings, and all other non-humanoids actually have 1 RHD they can't swap out for a class level (and thus their statblocks are wrong), because the rule that allows for that is under 'humanoids and class levels', despite the relevant rule never specifying humanoids (it instead refers to characters, monsters, and creatures (all interchangeable terms), but never humanoids). Heck, it's even more likely in this case, because 'Humanoids and Class Levels' is the sub heading of the relevant section (while in this case, the relevant sub-heading is 'Meeting Class Requirements'

Easy: they could have said 'martial' before every mention of 'prestige class' would have made it perfectly unambiguous (since CWar had already defined 'martial prestige' to mean 'a prestige class from this book'). That's they how they could have made it clearer. Assuming, of course, that the rule was only intended to effect PRCs in that book. Due to how horrifically easy a change it would have been, it seems more likely it was intended to be all-encompassing.

[Beheld]

And? Headers aren't part of the body text. The relevant rule itself only refers to 'a prestige class'. If you were right and headers had some form of RAW bearing, then under the exact same logic, warforged, aasimar, elans, teiflings, and all other non-humanoids actually have 1 RHD they can't swap out for a class level (and thus their statblocks are wrong), because the rule that allows for that is under 'humanoids and class levels', despite the relevant rule never specifying humanoids (it instead refers to characters, monsters, and creatures (all interchangeable terms), but never humanoids). Heck, it's even more likely in this case, because 'Humanoids and Class Levels' is the sub heading of the relevant section (while in this case, the relevant sub-heading is 'Meeting Class Requirements'

Yeah, Headers are in fact, totally relevant. Rules under the Magic Items section apply to magic items. Rules under the (Illusion) heading apply to Illusions. Rules under the "casting a spell" section apply to casting a spell.

Nevermind that Aasimar, and Teiflings, fall under the specific rules "X as Characters" which don't grant Racial HD unless they say they do, and that the Elan entry never indicates they have racial HD anywhere, and presumably Warforged are the same, arguing that rules apply generically to things totally unrelated to their section creates way worse results than some minor nerfs to a few races.


Easy: they could have said 'martial' before every mention of 'prestige class' would have made it perfectly unambiguous (since CWar had already defined 'martial prestige' to mean 'a prestige class from this book'). That's they how they could have made it clearer. Assuming, of course, that the rule was only intended to effect PRCs in that book. Due to how horrifically easy a change it would have been, it seems more likely it was intended to be all-encompassing.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, I'm sure that when they copy pasted the exact text from Sword and Fist they carefully considered whether specific changes would be a good idea or not and that this reflects their intent to make the Dragon Disciple unplayable and wasn't at all a complete oversight created by not possibly believing that people would seriously think that the rules under "THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASS" applied to all prestige classes.

[nedz]

Yes. You no longer qualify for the PRC, you lose all abilities except HD, BaB, Skills, and Saves. That would include the No Time to Think (but also, well, everything else, like the STR boost, and useful multi-hit abilities).

This.

Also, loosing WH temporarily could be useful because No Time to Think.

One thing you can't control is when you get to level - that's a DM call.

So, again, talk to your DM.

[Necroticplague]

Yeah, Headers are in fact, totally relevant. Rules under the Magic Items section apply to magic items. Rules under the (Illusion) heading apply to Illusions. Rules under the "casting a spell" section apply to casting a spell.Only because the section that comes after a heading then refers to the object the heading is. The magic rules relate to magic items because they say things like "using a magic item...." thus referring to what it is talking about. This is in contrast to the rule we're talking about, which, on it's own merit, merely refers to 'a prestige class'.


Yeah, I'm sure that when they copy pasted the exact text from Sword and Fist they carefully considered whether specific changes would be a good idea or not and that this reflects their intent to make the Dragon Disciple unplayable and wasn't at all a complete oversight created by not possibly believing that people would seriously think that the rules under "THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASS" applied to all prestige classes.

As am I. Generally, it's safe to assume people are doing their job and that writers put things in for a good reason.

Related note, what page is this rule in in Sword and Fist? I can't seem to find it in my copy.

[Beheld]

Only because the section that comes after a heading then refers to the object the heading is. The magic rules relate to magic items because they say things like "using a magic item...." thus referring to what it is talking about. This is in contrast to the rule we're talking about, which, on it's own merit, merely refers to 'a prestige class'.

Except you know, when they don't. "Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points." "Roll d%. If the item is a melee weapon, a 01-30 result indicates that the item sheds light, 31-45 indicates that something (a design, inscription, or the like) provides a clue to the weapon’s function, and 46-100 indicates no special qualities."

All those glowing non magical weapons.

Yes, in fact, rules only apply to the things in the category they are talking about.


As am I. Generally, it's safe to assume people are doing their job and that writers put things in for a good reason.

Except headings which are always nonsense though? No, let's be serious, there is no reason to think that people putting PrC requirements rules into Complete Warrior thought they were writing rules which applied to all books past and present. In fact, the primary source rules pretty much specifically say they can't do that.


Related note, what page is this rule in in Sword and Fist? I can't seem to find it in my copy.

Sorry, page 27 of the 3.0 DMG (before being removed from the 3.5 DMG):

"Should a character find herself in a position (changed alignment, lost levels, and so on) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not HD, base attack bonus, or base save bonuses) gained from the levels of the prestige class."

So yes, arguing that they removed text from the DMG (The primary source for all PrCs) and then put it in Complete Warrior (under "the Martial Prestige Classes") is evidence that the people writing Complete Warrior were probably just writing the rules they remembered, and not the new rules, or alternatively, were trying to make rules for classes in Complete Warrior. But not evidence that they were trying to make new PrC rules that apply to all books (something they can't even do, because the primary source rule).

More specifically, Complete Warrior was published 5 months after the DMG, so I suspect that they didn't even intend to make up the new rules for Complete Warrior, and that they were just unaware that the rules had changed at all.

[Segev]

Long story short, arguing about things that the DM will have to make a call on in any real game is a sport around here.

[Droopy McCool]

I wonder how many people here are real life lawyers.

[Beheld]

I wonder how many people here are real life lawyers.

At least one.

[Droopy McCool]

At least one.

If I ever need a lawyer, I'm hiring out of the playground.

[Necroticplague]

Except you know, when they don't. "Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points." "Roll d%. If the item is a melee weapon, a 01-30 result indicates that the item sheds light, 31-45 indicates that something (a design, inscription, or the like) provides a clue to the weapon’s function, and 46-100 indicates no special qualities."

All those glowing non magical weapons.

Yes, in fact, rules only apply to the things in the category they are talking about.



[QUOTE=Beheld;20332055]Except headings which are always nonsense though? No, let's be serious, there is no reason to think that people putting PrC requirements rules into Complete Warrior thought they were writing rules which applied to all books past and present. In fact, the primary source rules pretty much specifically say they can't do that.Heading do serve a purpose, but they aren't to modify rules. They are to help when you look up things. If you were gonna look up rules for magic items, you'd look under the Magic Items header. Not because there' anything special about that header, but because that's where those rules have been grouped.
I'm pretty sure that headers are made by typesetters, while the rules were written by writers, but that's more of a side-note.



Sorry, page 27 of the 3.0 DMG (before being removed from the 3.5 DMG):

"Should a character find herself in a position (changed alignment, lost levels, and so on) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not HD, base attack bonus, or base save bonuses) gained from the levels of the prestige class."

So yes, arguing that they removed text from the DMG (The primary source for all PrCs) and then put it in Complete Warrior (under "the Martial Prestige Classes") is evidence that the people writing Complete Warrior were probably just writing the rules they remembered, and not the new rules, or alternatively, were trying to make rules for classes in Complete Warrior. But not evidence that they were trying to make new PrC rules that apply to all books (something they can't even do, because the primary source rule).

Primary Source only comes into play if there is a contradiction. There is no contradiction between the DMG and CWar, because the DMG is irritatingly silent on the subject of what happens if you lose the prerequisites for a prestige class you already have levels in. The CWar rules is supplementing the DMG ones by filling in a hole, something well within its ability as a supplemental rulebook. Just as how Fortburn and Sandstorm supplement the environment rules by expanding them, so does CWar supplement the PRC rules by expanding it.

And there is evidence it was intended to apply to all of them: if it wasn't the could have very easily just added 'martial' before all the mentions of 'prestige class' or, like the section before it, referred to 'these classes' or 'these prestige classes'. The fact the didn't do such a minor, simple find-replace seems to indicate the didn't want to, showing an intent to keep it as-is.


Long story short, arguing about things that the DM will have to make a call on in any real game is a sport around here.
Yep. No real arguing about this. It's something that helps kill time (between having to write and format posts and trawl through books).

[zergling.exe]

Primary Source only comes into play if there is a contradiction. There is no contradiction between the DMG and CWar, because the DMG is irritatingly silent on the subject of what happens if you lose the prerequisites for a prestige class you already have levels in. The CWar rules is supplementing the DMG ones by filling in a hole, something well within its ability as a supplemental rulebook. Just as how Fortburn and Sandstorm supplement the environment rules by expanding them, so does CWar supplement the PRC rules by expanding it.

And there is evidence it was intended to apply to all of them: if it wasn't the could have very easily just added 'martial' before all the mentions of 'prestige class' or, like the section before it, referred to 'these classes' or 'these prestige classes'. The fact the didn't do such a minor, simple find-replace seems to indicate the didn't want to, showing an intent to keep it as-is.

As the text was actually removed from the DMG in the 3.0 > 3.5 update, and the only 3.5 books with the text were published within 6 months of the update; wouldn't that mean that the 3.5 update got rid of that rule, and the silence of the DMG is because that rule was removed, and not intended to be in 3.5?

[Necroticplague]

As the text was actually removed from the DMG in the 3.0 > 3.5 update, and the only 3.5 books with the text were published within 6 months of the update; wouldn't that mean that the 3.5 update got rid of that rule, and the silence of the DMG is because that rule was removed, and not intended to be in 3.5?

Equally possible was that they didn't think it was possible anymore, so they removed the rule, then re-added it once they realized it was possible. Or that they didn't put it in the DMG to save space, then put it back in the game where they had some spare space (which, interestingly enough, the vast majority of the 'Martial Prestige Class' content until then reads like filler).

[Beheld]

Equally possible was that they didn't think it was possible anymore, so they removed the rule, then re-added it once they realized it was possible.

Kind of impressive that on the one hand you will argue that every single word is part of a carefully crafted master plan of geniuses who could never be wrong, and then turn around and assert that the reason they deleted the wording which would break a PrC in the same book that they deleted the words from is because they are literally the dumbest human beings alive who thought it was impossible for their to exist a class that would trigger something that is triggered by the book they are currently writing.

Almost like your opinion of the competence of the authors is based on whatever supports the conclusion you want to draw.

[Nohwl]

Equally possible was that they didn't think it was possible anymore, so they removed the rule, then re-added it once they realized it was possible. Or that they didn't put it in the DMG to save space, then put it back in the game where they had some spare space (which, interestingly enough, the vast majority of the 'Martial Prestige Class' content until then reads like filler).

if you wanted to save space, why wouldn't you put it in the errata for the dmg? that was 4 months after complete warrior. or they could have added the few sentences to almost every other book with prestige classes. it's weird that it's in so few books.

[Beheld]

if you wanted to save space, why wouldn't you put it in the errata for the dmg? that was 4 months after complete warrior. or they could have added the few sentences to almost every other book with prestige classes. it's weird that it's in so few books.

If they wanted to save space, they could have put it in the DMG, it takes up four lines of the 3.0 DMG. Arguing that they published a book that was twice the size of the 3.0 DMG, but they couldn't find any possible way to fit in four lines on half a page into that book to render a class they added non-function is absurd.

If they wanted to do that, they could have just added those four lines and deleted the entire Dragon Disciple PrC.

[daremetoidareyo]

I wonder how many people here are real life lawyers.

Does Policy analyst count?

[Necroticplague]

if you wanted to save space, why wouldn't you put it in the errata for the dmg? that was 4 months after complete warrior. or they could have added the few sentences to almost every other book with prestige classes. it's weird that it's in so few books.
Beats me, I can only postulate. Do agree, seems like it should be either in a more central location or in more books.

Kind of impressive that on the one hand you will argue that every single word is part of a carefully crafted master plan of geniuses who could never be wrong, and then turn around and assert that the reason they deleted the wording which would break a PrC in the same book that they deleted the words from is because they are literally the dumbest human beings alive who thought it was impossible for their to exist a class that would trigger something that is triggered by the book they are currently writing.

Almost like your opinion of the competence of the authors is based on whatever supports the conclusion you want to draw.

When did I ever state that they were inerrant? The fact that they seemed to think sorc 20 and monk 20 were in any way equivalent when you don't need to actually know much dnd to see why that's wrong proves them to be closer to the latter.