[Pathfinder] Lycanthrope PC - Ability Score advancement

[punchbeard]

Here's a question about increasing ability scores on a PC's 4th/8th/12th/... character level, when they get to choose to increase an ability score by +1. Let's say we have the PC character Finny, a human who is also a wereshark. (As a lycanthrope, he probably takes one or more level adjustment.)

Finny's initial ability rolls are STR 13, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 12. Finny is a fighter and he adds his +2 bonus (because human) to Constitution. He's single-classing, so let's say that his character level is his fighter level.

The rules for lycanthropic characters' ability scores are not written very clearly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope), but here's how it works: Lycanthropes can morph between three forms: base, hybrid, and creature. For all forms, Finny gets +2 wisdom, -2 charisma.
Finny's scores are now: STR 13, DEX 13, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 10. This is in his base (human) form.

When in animal form, Finny uses a shark's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/shark/shark) strength (17) and constitution (13). This isn't very important because Finny spends most of his time on land and needs to communicate with NPCs who aren't sharks.

When in hybrid form, Finny's strength is either his original Strength +2, or the shark's strength; whichever is higher. So Finny's normal strength +2 (13+2) is 15, which is below a shark's 17, so he gets 17 STR in hybrid form.
The same applies to constitution. Finny's normal constitution +2 (16+2) is 18, which is above a shark's 13, so he gets 18 CON in hybrid form.

Okay? Okay. Good. As for the actual question...
When Finny hits level 4, he gets to raise an ability score. If he chooses strength (13 to 14), then would this also apply in hybrid/animal forms (17 to 18)?
The problem is that 17 is the shark's strength, whereas Finny's base strength is only 13. If the ability score increase only applies to Finny's human form, then he would still have 17 strength when in hybrid form (Finny dislikes this). Otherwise, you'd be saying that his shark form also gets +1 strength, which might be an issue because animals don't really gain levels (Finny likes this but the GM is confused).

What do you think?

[meschlum]

Here's a question about increasing ability scores on a PC's 4th/8th/12th/... character level, when they get to choose to increase an ability score by +1. Let's say we have the PC character Finny, a human who is also a wereshark. (As a lycanthrope, he probably takes one or more level adjustment.)

Finny's initial ability rolls are STR 13, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 12. Finny is a fighter and he adds his +2 bonus (because human) to Constitution. He's single-classing, so let's say that his character level is his fighter level.

The rules for lycanthropic characters' ability scores are not written very clearly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope), but here's how it works: Lycanthropes can morph between three forms: base, hybrid, and creature. For all forms, Finny gets +2 wisdom, -2 charisma.
Finny's scores are now: STR 13, DEX 13, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 10. This is in his base (human) form.

When in animal form, Finny uses a shark's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/shark/shark) strength (17) and constitution (13). This isn't very important because Finny spends most of his time on land and needs to communicate with NPCs who aren't sharks.

When in hybrid form, Finny's strength is either his original Strength +2, or the shark's strength; whichever is higher. So Finny's normal strength +2 (13+2) is 15, which is below a shark's 17, so he gets 17 STR in hybrid form.
The same applies to constitution. Finny's normal constitution +2 (16+2) is 18, which is above a shark's 13, so he gets 18 CON in hybrid form.

Okay? Okay. Good. As for the actual question...
When Finny hits level 4, he gets to raise an ability score. If he chooses strength (13 to 14), then would this also apply in hybrid/animal forms (17 to 18)?
The problem is that 17 is the shark's strength, whereas Finny's base strength is only 13. If the ability score increase only applies to Finny's human form, then he would still have 17 strength when in hybrid form (Finny dislikes this). Otherwise, you'd be saying that his shark form also gets +1 strength, which might be an issue because animals don't really gain levels (Finny likes this but the GM is confused).

What do you think?

Not quite correct.

If you look at the sample Werewolf, you'll find that its Constitution in Hybrid form is 17, where it's 14 in base (human) form. This is because a Wolf's Constitution is 15, so the +2 bonus is applied to the maximum of either the base form (Hybrid Form Strength is 19, as base form has Strength 17) or the animal form.

So Finny has Strength 19 (Shark form + 2) and Constitution 18 (Base form + 2) in Hybrid form. Note that this is a REAL change to Constitution (the Hybrid Werewolf has more hit points than in Base form), which changes hit points. Unlike (nearly) every other polymorph effect in Pathfinder.


My reading of the rules is that the features of the lycanthrope template (Hybrid and Animal form in particular) are added to the base form. So if your base attributes increase from leveling up, this does not change the features of the template - hence the first approach seems correct. If you increase Finny's base Strength to 14, it's still less than the animal Strength (17), so Hybrid and Animal forms do not benefit.

Finny is not an animal, and the 'animal' form does not gain levels - only Finny does (and Finny does not have any animal hit dice). So to me, again, there is no way the animal form's hit dice are increased, so that it could get higher attributes. If you upgraded from being a were-shark to being a were-Dire shark, or some such, there would be a justification for changing the animal form's attributes. Otherwise, not really.


Lycanthropy is a +1 CR template, so it only costs you one level to pick up. Note that your CR is either Level + 1 OR 3 (CR 2 from Shark, + 1 from Lycanthrope), whichever is greater. So Finny can only enter the game when the party is level 3 or more (as a 2nd level Fighter).

At higher levels, you have a broader range of animals to consider, and the attribute bonuses become exceptionally good in a point buy environment. This is because you can just stay in Hybrid form and ignore your point buy for all physical attributes (except Dexterity, typically). Sadly, you can't change animal types as you level up, so you may regret 'minor' lycanthropy taken at low levels compared to what a higher level character could get.

A were-Dire Tiger gets Strength 29, Dexterity 15, and Constitution 19 as a base in Hybrid form, and is CR 9 (or more). A normal 9th level fighter who took 18 base Strength has Strength 22 at most, and probably lower Dexterity and Constitution in a point-buy setting.

Of course, if you are at party level 12 or more, it makes a lot of sense to be an Animal Lord instead (+4 to all attributes on top of the animal base, so Lady Kitten has Strength 33 at least). It's a CR +2 template, so you'll get some of it refunded as you level up - at party level 15 you get to be only one level behind the rest of the party, at the 'cost' of having really good attributes.

And if you feel particularly mean, make sure to become a were-Advanced Shark. It's CR 4 minimum (and still just +1 level, so Fighter 3 is allowed), but all your physical attributes are increased by 4 in Hybrid and Animal form. Strength 23, Dexterity 16, and Constitution 19 with zero investment in physical attributes.

[punchbeard]

Not quite correct.

If you look at the sample Werewolf, you'll find that its Constitution in Hybrid form is 17, where it's 14 in base (human) form. This is because a Wolf's Constitution is 15, so the +2 bonus is applied to the maximum of either the base form (Hybrid Form Strength is 19, as base form has Strength 17) or the animal form.

So Finny has Strength 19 (Shark form + 2) and Constitution 18 (Base form + 2) in Hybrid form. Note that this is a REAL change to Constitution (the Hybrid Werewolf has more hit points than in Base form), which changes hit points. Unlike (nearly) every other polymorph effect in Pathfinder.


That's not the case for the sample wereshark (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/lycanthrope-wereshark) in the bestiary. It only has 19 strength and 16 constitution. My theory came from stuff like this paizo forum thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oszd?Lycanthrope-Template-Ability-Scores) that addresses this issue.

Maybe the bestiary is inconsistent. Take a look at the crocodile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/crocodilians/crocodile/crocodile), with 19 strength and 17 constitution. The sample werecrocodile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/lycanthrope-werecrocodile) does not have 21 strength or 19 constitution. The confusing part is that the hybrid form has 16 constitution, which is less than the crocodile's. What's the explanation for this?