How to kill (or just survive) a beholder with a level 8 party

[Skylivedk]

Dear Playground,

I think my party is about to face a beholder, maybe in its lair. It's the holy quest of our party leader (a very persuasive, but quite dumb, Paladin) to kill said Beholder. The only character (our hunter/assassin) with the good sense to say: "ehh... no?" is oath-bound to help him. That being said, we'd all rather not die. With the beholder being above Deadly as an encounter (esp. if we face it in its lair) that might be hard, so I'm asking you guys for ideas. I'll post our different plans as well. First I have a few questions for you:

1. How would you rule the antimagic cone from the middle-eye of the beholder? It's a pretty damn powerful ability that really kills off a lot of our options. In the MM it says that the beholder can retarget the field in the beginning of each turn (and that the other rays are cancelled by the field). Would you rule it could more or less dispel whatever we do (turning your eye seems rather easy).

1.1 I imagine it close the eye when shooting at players inside the area, hence enabling us to ready actions for this particular circumstance (i.e. shoot back with cantrips and magic weapons)
1.2 If we split up the beholder (given enough space) can only keep one part of the group from using magic
1.3 The antimagic field does not affect the beholder itself (important for debuffs).
1.4 If our sorcerer casts Faerie Fire on the beholder and is later caught in the antimagic cone, does the Faerie Fire cease to work? (this is especially important for sneak attacks)

2. Sentinel and beholders: will the sentinel (movement speed drops to 0) make the beholder drop in your opinion?

3. Grappling the beholder. What effect would it have besides allowing the archer to sneak attack the beholder? Forcing it down 20 ft/round?

We are in Calimshan and have had all available information on beholders at our disposal (according to DM, we'd know pretty much exactly everything they say in the Monster's Manual due to the huge amount of information gathered about beholders in our region).

Our group is:

Variant human level 8 paladin (Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 8, Cha 16 (19 with a consumable we've 70 charges of); Shield Master, Resilience: Con)
Half-elf level 1 Bard / Copper Dragon Sorc 7 (Str ?, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 18; Inspired Leader)
Variant Human level 8 Barbarian (Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 12, Int 8, Cha 8; Sentinel, Polearm Master)
Wood-elf level 3 Assassin / level 5 Hunter (Str 9, Dex 18, Con 12, Wis 14, Int 13, Cha 8; Sharpshooter)

We have just dinged, so the 3 casters can choose new spells. This mostly affects the ranger who has yet to choose a 2nd level spell

Noticeable magic items include +1 Glaive +1d4 psychic damage and a +1 longbow +1d4 radiant.
Noticeable other items: 2 doses of wyvern poison (7d10, dc 13), 8 doses of Scorpion poison (4d10, poisoned condition, dc 14). 5 healing potions, 1 protection from evil, 2 antidotes pr. party member. All traps in PHB equipment list. A mastiff. A Camel.

Spells:
Paladin: UsuallyBless, Shield of Faith, Find Steed (which is probably value, since the steed just died and having an extra body might be worth it).
Sorcerer: 1st level: Shield, sleep, burning hands, comprehend languages, faerie fire, healing word. 2nd level: invisibility, web. 3rd level: fireball, haste, fly. 4th level: considering: dimension door, fire wall or confusion (also considering dispel magic instead of web).
Ranger: 1st level: Absorb elements, goodberry, hunter's mark. Considering: pass without trace or spike growth. [Might give up Goodberry, dangerous due to desert setting, or Absorb elements to get both]

My character is the wood-elf and hence the only character who isn't average dumb. On the bright side, his speciality is planning hunts and ambushes (so I play him as higher than 13 int in that regard with a corresponding weakness regarding mathematics and the like).

To gather intel:
We plan on having the Barbarian use his rituals to sense how far away the beholder is (so it doesn't surprise us as we enter the temple it is having its undead minions buil in its honour). Best option would be convincing a local snake/other animal to give us intel (after having his Cha buffed to 19). Second option is to take over the senses of the Mastiff and sniff out how far away the scent that is not undead is. The hunter has used Primal Awareness to deduce that there is an aberration nearby (so unfortunately we are not dealing with a Death Tyrant instead of a Beholder).

Plan A: Kick in the door
Wood-elf coats javelins and arrows in poison. We all stick close to Paladin and hope to bring down the beholder, while the bardic inspirations from the bard help us hit it. I'm not a big fan of this.. It's rather dumb and gives us little except the luck of the die. I'm thinking of having the Barb and Pala throw grappling hooks into big ugly and pull him down, so we can see eye-to-eye.

Plan B: The Split
As we get into the lair, we split in two: Pala+Archer go left, Barb+Bard go right. This is to facilitate that either: a) archer and pala getting bless and hunter's mark. b) barbarian flying to grapple the beholder to allow for sneak attacks and continuous wailing.

Variant: Have Barbarian and Paladin storm in 1 round before archer and bard (I like this one) to turn the antimagic cone away from the blessed, hasted, stealthy archer. Once sneak attacks have been unleashed, cone (hopefully turns) for fly and grapple combo to go off.

Plan C: The Sneaky Kill
With either invisibility and/or pass without trace (would you take it over spike growth in general?), the Hunter/Assassin might just get the drop on the beholder; given there's more than one entrance into the lair (I presume the beholder would keep a single entrance in a constant anti-magic field). We might find a way of creating another entrance (see Plan D).

If he does get the drop on the fat drop (without being dispelled - pass without trace + bless + bardic inspiration + 7 stealth should take care of 22 passive perception), he might just almost kill it before it moves.

With haste, he'd have 3 attacks with advantage, all of them critting, all of them coated in poisoned (Scorpion poison until the beholder fails, then wyvern poison).
With haste, he'd also have a decent chance of beating the beholder to the initiative count - allowing for yet 3 more attacks with advantage (due to the assassin feature).

Plan D: Creating another entrance
I'm not sure if our dear sorcerer has Acid Splash. If he does, he might melt us another entrance through the roof of the lair (or we could make one with brute strength). That should allow the paladin and barbarian to create enough of a distraction. With such a distraction, the archer might succeed in Plan C (albeit without the Surprise round - I guess; still 3 poisoned arrows, sneak attack and radiant damage adds up).

Plan E: Starve the beholder out of the cave and kill it
Being outside the lair would be great. No lair actions and, if the fat blob is desperate, the opportunity for the archer to kite it to death (shouldn't happen considering the 17 int).

Plan F:
Move Sorc and Barb outside of antimagic field, dimension door them up on top of beholder and have the barbarian grapple the beholder, while the sorc hangs from a rope - both dragging the beholder downwards towards its doom.

Further points: whether or not to summon the barded steed (a lion with warhorse stats, except scent and 10 lower movement speed).

All ideas are welcome! - sorry for not giving a better layout of the battle, but we are outside the temple and I think we will get through the temple and confront the beholder in one session. Hopefully we'll get a long rest before the beholder. (Should be possible just by resting outside).

[Corran]

I think it will help massively if someone casts darkness, and the party stays inside the magical darkness so that the beholder wont have line of sight to any of you. If the beholder is outside the magical darkness, rediculously you have advantage in your attacks against it (RAW). If it is inside the magical darkness as well, play as normal, with no OAs and no spells or abilities that require to see the target (this is specified in the spell or ability description of the relevant spell or ability).

[KorvinStarmast]

Dear Playground,

I think my party is about to face a beholder, maybe in its lair. It's the holy quest of our party leader (a very persuasive, but quite dumb, Paladin) to kill said Beholder. The only character (our hunter/assassin) with the good sense to say: "ehh... no?" is oath-bound to help him. That being said, we'd all rather not die. With the beholder being above Deadly as an encounter (esp. if we face it in its lair) that might be hard, so I'm asking you guys for ideas. I'll post our different plans as well. First I have a few questions for you:

1. How would you rule the antimagic cone from the middle-eye of the beholder? It's a pretty damn powerful ability that really kills off a lot of our options. In the MM it says that the beholder can retarget the field in the beginning of each turn (and that the other rays are cancelled by the field). Would you rule it could more or less dispel whatever we do (turning your eye seems rather easy).

1.1 I imagine it close the eye when shooting at players inside the area, hence enabling us to ready actions for this particular circumstance (i.e. shoot back with cantrips and magic weapons)
1.2 If we split up the beholder (given enough space) can only keep one part of the group from using magic
1.3 The antimagic field does not affect the beholder itself (important for debuffs).
1.4 If our sorcerer casts Faerie Fire on the beholder and is later caught in the antimagic cone, does the Faerie Fire cease to work? (this is especially important for sneak attacks)

2. Sentinel and beholders: will the sentinel (movement speed drops to 0) make the beholder drop in your opinion?

3. Grappling the beholder. What effect would it have besides allowing the archer to sneak attack the beholder? Forcing it down 20 ft/round?

We are in Calimshan and have had all available information on beholders at our disposal (according to DM, we'd know pretty much exactly everything they say in the Monster's Manual due to the huge amount of information gathered about beholders in our region).

Our group is:

Variant human level 8 paladin (Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 8, Cha 16 (19 with a consumable we've 70 charges of); Shield Master, Resilience: Con)
Half-elf level 1 Bard / Copper Dragon Sorc 7 (Str ?, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 18; Inspired Leader)
Variant Human level 8 Barbarian (Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 12, Int 8, Cha 8; Sentinel, Polearm Master)
Wood-elf level 3 Assassin / level 5 Hunter (Str 9, Dex 18, Con 12, Wis 14, Int 13, Cha 8; Sharpshooter)

We have just dinged, so the 3 casters can choose new spells. This mostly affects the ranger who has yet to choose a 2nd level spell

Noticeable magic items include +1 Glaive +1d4 psychic damage and a +1 longbow +1d4 radiant.
Noticeable other items: 2 doses of wyvern poison (7d10, dc 13), 8 doses of Scorpion poison (4d10, poisoned condition, dc 14). 5 healing potions, 1 protection from evil, 2 antidotes pr. party member. All traps in PHB equipment list. A mastiff. A Camel.

Spells:
Paladin: UsuallyBless, Shield of Faith, Find Steed (which is probably value, since the steed just died and having an extra body might be worth it).
Sorcerer: 1st level: Shield, sleep, burning hands, comprehend languages, faerie fire, healing word. 2nd level: invisibility, web. 3rd level: fireball, haste, fly. 4th level: considering: dimension door, fire wall or confusion (also considering dispel magic instead of web).
Ranger: 1st level: Absorb elements, goodberry, hunter's mark. Considering: pass without trace or spike growth. [Might give up Goodberry, dangerous due to desert setting, or Absorb elements to get both]

My character is the wood-elf and hence the only character who isn't average dumb. On the bright side, his speciality is planning hunts and ambushes (so I play him as higher than 13 int in that regard with a corresponding weakness regarding mathematics and the like).

To gather intel:
We plan on having the Barbarian use his rituals to sense how far away the beholder is (so it doesn't surprise us as we enter the temple it is having its undead minions buil in its honour). Best option would be convincing a local snake/other animal to give us intel (after having his Cha buffed to 19). Second option is to take over the senses of the Mastiff and sniff out how far away the scent that is not undead is. The hunter has used Primal Awareness to deduce that there is an aberration nearby (so unfortunately we are not dealing with a Death Tyrant instead of a Beholder).

Plan A: Kick in the door
Wood-elf coats javelins and arrows in poison. We all stick close to Paladin and hope to bring down the beholder, while the bardic inspirations from the bard help us hit it. I'm not a big fan of this.. It's rather dumb and gives us little except the luck of the die. I'm thinking of having the Barb and Pala throw grappling hooks into big ugly and pull him down, so we can see eye-to-eye.

Plan B: The Split
As we get into the lair, we split in two: Pala+Archer go left, Barb+Bard go right. This is to facilitate that either: a) archer and pala getting bless and hunter's mark. b) barbarian flying to grapple the beholder to allow for sneak attacks and continuous wailing.

Variant: Have Barbarian and Paladin storm in 1 round before archer and bard (I like this one) to turn the antimagic cone away from the blessed, hasted, stealthy archer. Once sneak attacks have been unleashed, cone (hopefully turns) for fly and grapple combo to go off.

Plan C: The Sneaky Kill
With either invisibility and/or pass without trace (would you take it over spike growth in general?), the Hunter/Assassin might just get the drop on the beholder; given there's more than one entrance into the lair (I presume the beholder would keep a single entrance in a constant anti-magic field). We might find a way of creating another entrance (see Plan D).

If he does get the drop on the fat drop (without being dispelled - pass without trace + bless + bardic inspiration + 7 stealth should take care of 22 passive perception), he might just almost kill it before it moves.

With haste, he'd have 3 attacks with advantage, all of them critting, all of them coated in poisoned (Scorpion poison until the beholder fails, then wyvern poison).
With haste, he'd also have a decent chance of beating the beholder to the initiative count - allowing for yet 3 more attacks with advantage (due to the assassin feature).

Plan D: Creating another entrance
I'm not sure if our dear sorcerer has Acid Splash. If he does, he might melt us another entrance through the roof of the lair (or we could make one with brute strength). That should allow the paladin and barbarian to create enough of a distraction. With such a distraction, the archer might succeed in Plan C (albeit without the Surprise round - I guess; still 3 poisoned arrows, sneak attack and radiant damage adds up).

Plan E: Starve the beholder out of the cave and kill it
Being outside the lair would be great. No lair actions and, if the fat blob is desperate, the opportunity for the archer to kite it to death (shouldn't happen considering the 17 int).

Plan F:
Move Sorc and Barb outside of antimagic field, dimension door them up on top of beholder and have the barbarian grapple the beholder, while the sorc hangs from a rope - both dragging the beholder downwards towards its doom.

Further points: whether or not to summon the barded steed (a lion with warhorse stats, except scent and 10 lower movement speed).

All ideas are welcome! - sorry for not giving a better layout of the battle, but we are outside the temple and I think we will get through the temple and confront the beholder in one session. Hopefully we'll get a long rest before the beholder. (Should be possible just by resting outside). An idea: Fog Cloud centered on beholder as an opening move (depending on the geometry of the room) to force beholder to move and ready action ranged/spell attacks when it emerges from fog cloud. Your melee characters (some risk here) go into the fog cloud with the intention of getting up close and personal with beholder (grapple/etc).

Can you get your hands on that 1st level spell, or is that not a choice you have during preparation for the fight while in Calimshan? (Fog Cloud is first level spell).

Not a complete plan, but a possible way to mitigate the eye advantage.

[Skylivedk]

I think it will help massively if someone casts darkness, and the party stays inside the magical darkness so that the beholder wont have line of sight to any of you. If the beholder is outside the magical darkness, rediculously you have advantage in your attacks against it (RAW). If it is inside the magical darkness as well, play as normal, with no OAs and no spells or abilities that require to see the target (this is specified in the spell or ability description of the relevant spell or ability).

Its central eye radiates an antimagic field - it'd dispel the magical darkness in a manner of split-seconds, so I'm not sure that is valid.

I also think this goes for Fog Cloud (unless the fog isn't magical by itself.. I guess it is though).

BUT! You both just reminded me of another option... Smoking out the beholder. We have tons of fire cantrips and burning rotten corpses from all the zombies we've just slain, might force the beholder out. We just need to direct the smoke somehow (this is HEAVILY depending on the layout of the lair inside the temple.. Doesn't work if the lair is beneath the temple).

Unfortunately there's no smoke sticks in the current PHB; if there were, I'd have tons of them (I loved them in 3.5 and PF).

[Corran]

Its central eye radiates an antimagic field - it'd dispel the magical darkness in a manner of split-seconds, so I'm not sure that is valid.

I also think this goes for Fog Cloud (unless the fog isn't magical by itself.. I guess it is though).

BUT! You both just reminded me of another option... Smoking out the beholder. We have tons of fire cantrips and burning rotten corpses from all the zombies we've just slain, might force the beholder out. We just need to direct the smoke somehow (this is HEAVILY depending on the layout of the lair inside the temple.. Doesn't work if the lair is beneath the temple).

Unfortunately there's no smoke sticks in the current PHB; if there were, I'd have tons of them (I loved them in 3.5 and PF).
Hmmm, maybe use a wind spell/cantrip of sorts (gust of wind comes to mind) if you have access to it?
Alternatively, using the elf as a bait is always a valid tactic in my book!:smallbiggrin:

[BiPolar]

Its central eye radiates an antimagic field - it'd dispel the magical darkness in a manner of split-seconds, so I'm not sure that is valid.

I also think this goes for Fog Cloud (unless the fog isn't magical by itself.. I guess it is though).

BUT! You both just reminded me of another option... Smoking out the beholder. We have tons of fire cantrips and burning rotten corpses from all the zombies we've just slain, might force the beholder out. We just need to direct the smoke somehow (this is HEAVILY depending on the layout of the lair inside the temple.. Doesn't work if the lair is beneath the temple).

Unfortunately there's no smoke sticks in the current PHB; if there were, I'd have tons of them (I loved them in 3.5 and PF).

If it uses the antimagic cone, then it also dispels any eye rays that it's going to be using. HOwever, killing this thing quickly is your best bet. Can you make the paladin invisible (but have him cast bless first), move him into position, cast haste on him and then have him unload for 3 attacks with level 2 divine smites. Hope you roll well on initiative and continue with your hardest hitting attacks/spells to end this in 1 round. If the paladin can hit with all three attacks, he's going to knock that thing down to at least bloodied and the rest of your party should be able to finish it off before it can kill anyone.

But I'm generally a proponent of the best defense is a good offense.

[Finieous]

The antimagic cone only suppresses the darkness. So the beholder can either be suppressing the darkness with its central eye, or attacking someone in the darkness with its stalks -- it can't do both. In other words, if it turns the central eye away at the start of its turn, the darkness pops back on and it can't target anyone inside.

I'm AFB and this is all IIRC. It's kinda lame, but I think that's how it works.

[Temperjoke]

Can you collapse the lair on it?

[darkrose50]

Capsaicin (pepper spray) would really mess up an eye-monster.

Finding the peppers with the most capsaicin could be an interesting quest involving going to cities, or restaurants known for hot food, or to druids known for their herbalist skills, or to hobbit farmers that have a yearly chili cook-off.

[BiPolar]

The antimagic cone only suppresses the darkness. So the beholder can either be suppressing the darkness with its central eye, or attacking someone in the darkness with its stalks -- it can't do both. In other words, if it turns the central eye away at the start of its turn, the darkness pops back on and it can't target anyone inside.

I'm AFB and this is all IIRC. It's kinda lame, but I think that's how it works.

That's correct. Per MM, page 28

The beholder's central eye creates an area of antimagic, as in the antimagic field spell, in a 150-foot cone. At the start of each of it's turns, the beholder decides which way the cone faces and whether the cone is active. The area works against the beholder's own eye rays.

[Skylivedk]

Hmmm, maybe use a wind spell/cantrip of sorts (gust of wind comes to mind) if you have access to it?
Alternatively, using the elf as a bait is always a valid tactic in my book!:smallbiggrin:

I'm sure the group paladin would agree.

I'm racking my brain for the wind control... I'm not sure Beholders breathe though (I guess they do). The elf has Survival as his skill, so some kind of smoke control should be possible. Again, it mostly depends on how the lair is built. As far as I can see, Gust of Wind is too strong for the purpose of smoke control

I'd much rather use the steed of the Paladin as bait (instead of my own character... who also happens to be the only planner and the only character of sustaining a high DPR without magic). Especially since the steed doesn't die, bue just dematerialise if reduced to 0 hp.

Currently, I think, I'd (unfortunately) have to drop absorb elements and take both spike growth (for later use) and pass without trace (so there'll be a later use). A combination of lighting the entire temple on fire and creating enough noise for the Beholder to believe the temple is under attack might also help us. At least it might cause it to stay awake for 24 hours and hence we'd have the advantage of inducing exhaustion in the damned thing.. And as long as we keep it contained, it's not causing damage/recruiting an army. As soon as it goes out of its lair, we automatically have a huge advantage compared to it being inside its lair.

[Daishain]

1.) pretty much yeah, just like with the spell, the AMF will dispel or temporarily suppress any active magical effects.
1.1.) Remember it can only close/open/redirect at the beginning of its turn. As a result, if the eye is closed at any point, you have at least one full round of unsuppressed magic.
1.2.) True, but recall that it is smart enough to keep the most dangerous magic user targeted
1.3.) I would probably rule that way, as the field is projected from a single point in the body, and does not stop its other magic (so long as they don't overlap) However this is up to your DM.
1.4.) Depends on one's interpretation of concentration. I'm inclined to think that there is some active magic use involved in the maintenance of concentration spells. As a result, yes, hitting the magic user with AMF will cause concentration to be dropped.

2.) no, hover flight is not subject to the "speed 0=falling" rule

3.) Grappling a beholder would be like grappling a small blimp. They're big and quite buoyant bastards. I doubt the weight of any one or two humanoids would be enough to drag it down. Slowing it down is probably another matter. On the other hand, a personal ruling of mine might be to allow an additional Str check to pin a limited number of eyestalks in a position that they can't be used. (If I go this route, partly for the sake of balance, the grappler would also autofail against eye blasts that take Dex saves)

The single biggest weakness of beholders is its narcissistic pride. My first instinct would be to goad it (probably by claiming another beholder told us it was such a weak and pathetic example of beholderdom that it would be easy prey) into a small passage where it couldn't float out of range of the melee PCs.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The antimagic cone only suppresses the darkness. So the beholder can either be suppressing the darkness with its central eye, or attacking someone in the darkness with its stalks -- it can't do both. In other words, if it turns the central eye away at the start of its turn, the darkness pops back on and it can't target anyone inside.

I'm AFB and this is all IIRC. It's kinda lame, but I think that's how it works.

The beholder can target anyone in the darkness just fine. You don't need line of sight to target creatures, you can hear them just fine. In order to be hidden, not seen and not heard, one has to take the hide action (or be silence + block line of sight).

Until people hide, the beholder can still target them as confirmed by JC.

Darkness would give the players and the beholder disadvantage on attack rolls unless someone can see through the magical darkness (note:warlocks) this tactic isn't a good idea.

[Skylivedk]

Capsaicin (pepper spray) would really mess up an eye-monster.

Finding the peppers with the most capsaicin could be an interesting quest involving going to cities, or restaurants known for hot food, or to druids known for their herbalist skills, or to hobbit farmers that have a yearly chili cook-off.

That is a super cool idea. Only two minor issues:

1) We are right outside what we presume to be its lair (presumption built on the 40+ undeads that were in the middle of building a temple apparently worshipping beholders... that is until we ended their agonising existence as undead)


I think it will help massively if someone casts darkness, and the party stays inside the magical darkness so that the beholder wont have line of sight to any of you. If the beholder is outside the magical darkness, rediculously you have advantage in your attacks against it (RAW). If it is inside the magical darkness as well, play as normal, with no OAs and no spells or abilities that require to see the target (this is specified in the spell or ability description of the relevant spell or ability).

2) I'm pretty sure this isn't how it'd work.

A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A). - PHB

• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage.. - PHB


That's correct. Per MM, page 28

Yes, that is true - but as you can see above it won't help us much. If anything the DM is likely to say that the beholder has a higher chance of hitting us than vice versa due to us being in a confined area and it hovering around. Also it has between 6 and 7 (highly damaging) attacks to our 6 attacks.

In general, we're not going to win by arguing technicalities; knowing my DM, he'd dismiss the notion that it is better to be in a confined bubble of darkness, completely blinded, than shooting into said confined bubble of darkness. RAW isn't worth much if it goes against DM's interpretation (i.e. scent is A LOT better in our sessions; even unrealistically so, since dragons can use it while flying while flying and scenting isn't much of a used tactic IRL).

[Corran]

The single biggest weakness of beholders is its narcissistic pride. My first instinct would be to goad it (probably by claiming another beholder told us it was such a weak and pathetic example of beholderdom that it would be easy prey) into a small passage where it couldn't float out of range of the melee PCs.
Oh yeah, that's true, I had forgotten about this. This can work if the op's party can roleplay it well. Wouldn't it be quite the irony if the killing blow is done with vicious mockery?!!!

[darkrose50]

That is a super cool idea. Only two minor issues:

1) We are right outside what we presume to be its lair (presumption built on the 40+ undeads that were in the middle of building a temple apparently worshipping beholders... that is until we ended their agonising existence as undead)


Talk the Paladin into it. Lie and say you had a vision, lie less and say it might be a vision. Ask him to prey on the idea.

[Finieous]

The beholder can target anyone in the darkness just fine. You don't need line of sight to target creatures, you can hear them just fine.

Pretty sure the ability description says the beholder can target anyone with his eyestalks that he can see.

ETA: It makes some sense to me that the beholder, the eye tyrant, has to see its victims and that magical darkness is therefore a big weakness. But it is a big weakness, and if the DM is going to houserule it, certainly it makes sense to develop a different approach.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Pretty sure the ability description says the beholder can target anyone with his eyestalks that he can see.

Really? Hmmm need to talk to my last AL DM who went way off the rails then :)

(Where a water weird was, was actually a beholder... Fun times! -_-)

[BiPolar]

Really? Hmmm need to talk to my last AL DM who went way off the rails then :)

(Where a water weird was, was actually a beholder... Fun times! -_-)

Yup, went way off the rails:


The beholder shoots three of the following magical eye rays at random (reroll duplicates), choosing one to three targets it can see within 120 feet of it.

but note, the beholder does have Darkvision 120'. Darkvision does not see through magical darkness.

[Douche]

I think it will help massively if someone casts darkness, and the party stays inside the magical darkness so that the beholder wont have line of sight to any of you. If the beholder is outside the magical darkness, rediculously you have advantage in your attacks against it (RAW). If it is inside the magical darkness as well, play as normal, with no OAs and no spells or abilities that require to see the target (this is specified in the spell or ability description of the relevant spell or ability).

What makes you think that people inside of magical darkness can see out of it? Nothing in the spell states that.

Magical darkness is an impermeable blackness, you can't see through it or out of it even if you're standing on the very edge.

[dickerson76]

Given that the antimagic cone works on it's own attacks, I'd think that being inside that field would be the safest place in the room.

[Temperjoke]

I wonder if you could use web, then have some way to shove the beholder into the web to curtail his ability to move? For extra fun, burning hands could light the web up if you need a little more damage.

[dickerson76]

What makes you think that people inside of magical darkness can see out of it? Nothing in the spell states that.

Magical darkness is an impermeable blackness, you can't see through it or out of it even if you're standing on the very edge.

Agreed. If you're inside the AMF, the beholder can't use it's ray attacks. If it turns off the AMF, it can't see you to target you with the rays. Magical Darkness + Warlock with Devil's Sight and a bow (and several hours) = Beholder slayer/standoff.

Edit: grammar

[Finieous]

What makes you think that people inside of magical darkness can see out of it? Nothing in the spell states that.

Magical darkness is an impermeable blackness, you can't see through it or out of it even if you're standing on the very edge.

He didn't say that people inside the darkness can see out of it. Spells and attacks (like the beholder's eyestalks) will state whether you must see your target to use them. If you do not have to see your target for a particular action, the normal effects of blindness, your target not being able to see you, etc., will apply.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yup, went way off the rails:



but note, the beholder does have Darkvision 120'. Darkvision does not see through magical darkness.

Oh yeah, darkvision does nothing to help. However if you don't need to specifically see your target (like many attacks and spells) you can still target a creature you can't see. Though you have (disadvantage) on the roll.

We had a warlock, wizard, and cleric so they tried to stay in the darkness but they got shot... Without the beholder using anti-magic on the darkness. The fighter was enlarged and hasted so the beholder was using the anti-magic on him.

Already unfair fight made more unfair lol

[Skylivedk]

1.) pretty much yeah, just like with the spell, the AMF will dispel or temporarily suppress any active magical effects.
1.1.) Remember it can only close/open/redirect at the beginning of its turn. As a result, if the eye is closed at any point, you have at least one full round of unsuppressed magic.
1.2.) True, but recall that it is smart enough to keep the most dangerous magic user targeted
1.3.) I would probably rule that way, as the field is projected from a single point in the body, and does not stop its other magic (so long as they don't overlap) However this is up to your DM.
1.4.) Depends on one's interpretation of concentration. I'm inclined to think that there is some active magic use involved in the maintenance of concentration spells. As a result, yes, hitting the magic user with AMF will cause concentration to be dropped.

2.) no, hover flight is not subject to the "speed 0=falling" rule

3.) Grappling a beholder would be like grappling a small blimp. They're big and quite buoyant bastards. I doubt the weight of any one or two humanoids would be enough to drag it down. Slowing it down is probably another matter. On the other hand, a personal ruling of mine might be to allow an additional Str check to pin a limited number of eyestalks in a position that they can't be used. (If I go this route, partly for the sake of balance, the grappler would also autofail against eye blasts that take Dex saves)

The single biggest weakness of beholders is its narcissistic pride. My first instinct would be to goad it (probably by claiming another beholder told us it was such a weak and pathetic example of beholderdom that it would be easy prey) into a small passage where it couldn't float out of range of the melee PCs.

Thank you!

RE: 1.1.: So just to clarify, you don't think it can just blink? (Just re-read the entry and it seems you are utterly right.. OK Beholder, prepare to get wrecked to pieces!) - would you as a DM rule that it can keep the cone centered on a character or only on an area? (Pretty big difference)
RE: 1.2.: It'd certainly hope so.. Especially since the most dangerous magic user is not the most dangerous person (that honour would fall to the poison arrow, sharp-shooting, sneak attacking elf). Also - the Paladin should be able to take the damage otherwise taken by the sorcerer, if they stay close together. AND! Since it can only open/close once per turn, the dear beholder is facing the option: antimagic field and getting shot to death, OR: attempting to blast us with rays and getting hyper-speed shot to death. I'm starting to favour odds a lot more (until we fail all our saving throws and die miserably).
RE: 1.3: I like that point.
RE: 1.4: or... suppressed? But yeah, this is the big nasty I'm not liking at all.

RE: 2.0: Thank you for clarifying.

RE: 3.0: Fair enough... So no dragging it to Earth (-what about with grapple hooks? - one end tied to a stone column?)


Oh yeah, that's true, I had forgotten about this. This can work if the op's party can roleplay it well. Wouldn't it be quite the irony if the killing blow is done with vicious mockery?!!!

I like this idea a lot. Only problem is how the DM is balancing the 15 WIS and 17 INT against a simple baiting technique. As DM, I'd probably say: the beholder waits and disintegrates more flying space before moving out.

Regarding: Capsaicin (pepper spray). I forgot the second point: I'm not sure our characters would know this (and especially not when it comes to weaponising capsaicin). It was invented very, very late. Our smartest character has 13 INT.

And if our characters do know this, I'm pretty sure, my character can't convince the paladin to walk through 7 days of desert to find chili and then return to the temple. The Paladin has 8 INT and 10 WIS. He's roleplayed to be extremely stubborn and never admit a mistake.

[BiPolar]

Given that the antimagic cone works on it's own attacks, I'd think that being inside that field would be the safest place in the room.

Only IF the DM chooses to use the AMF. Since it nerfs his attacks, unlikely he would. I still like my quick strike idea best :)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

8th level and you want to survive?

Get proficiency with disguise kit.

Find a very poor and destitute commoner that you will pay his family, make a legal binding contract, 150 gp a month if he pretend to be you (150 go is a lot for a commoner).

Disguise him really well. Try multiple times so you get it right.

Tell your party you a taking a different path to the beholder's lair. You want to check the surrounding areas for *invent a reason*.

Take commoner-you with you. Hide him far enough away that the party can't see him. Meet the party. Then say you need to use the restroom. Give commoner-you your clothing and enough stuff to look like you. Have him keep his mouth shut... Maybe act mad that day and don't talk much.

So commoner-you and your allies die, because that's kinda how things are going to go down, and you go back to town. Explain to the wife and family that the husband/father was a hero and saved your life and they would be getting a monthly allowance from you.

Hire a rogue to go back inside the beholder's best and grab all your party's stuff. Make sure it is a guild thief so that you don't get screwed on this deal. However only do this step of they had some sweet expensive items.

:smallbiggrin:

[BiPolar]

Thank you!

RE: 1.1.: So just to clarify, you don't think it can just blink? (Just re-read the entry and it seems you are utterly right.. OK Beholder, prepare to get wrecked to pieces!) - would you as a DM rule that it can keep the cone centered on a character or only on an area? (Pretty big difference)
RE: 1.2.: It'd certainly hope so.. Especially since the most dangerous magic user is not the most dangerous person (that honour would fall to the poison arrow, sharp-shooting, sneak attacking elf). Also - the Paladin should be able to take the damage otherwise taken by the sorcerer, if they stay close together. AND! Since it can only open/close once per turn, the dear beholder is facing the option: antimagic field and getting shot to death, OR: attempting to blast us with rays and getting hyper-speed shot to death. I'm starting to favour odds a lot more (until we fail all our saving throws and die miserably).
RE: 1.3: I like that point.
RE: 1.4: or... suppressed? But yeah, this is the big nasty I'm not liking at all.

RE: 2.0: Thank you for clarifying.

RE: 3.0: Fair enough... So no dragging it to Earth (-what about with grapple hooks? - one end tied to a stone column?)



I like this idea a lot. Only problem is how the DM is balancing the 15 WIS and 17 INT against a simple baiting technique. As DM, I'd probably say: the beholder waits and disintegrates more flying space before moving out.

Regarding: Capsaicin (pepper spray). I forgot the second point: I'm not sure our characters would know this (and especially not when it comes to weaponising capsaicin). It was invented very, very late. Our smartest character has 13 INT.

And if our characters do know this, I'm pretty sure, my character can't convince the paladin to walk through 7 days of desert to find chili and then return to the temple. The Paladin has 8 INT and 10 WIS. He's roleplayed to be extremely stubborn and never admit a mistake.

1.1 - THe DM can houserule this, but per RAW, the effect is a 150' cone of antimagic. Not a specific target creature.

The antimagic field also wouldn't end concentration. The spells are all still active, just suppressed. Once the field ends, all suppressed items currently going on return per language of Antimagic Field. Summoned creatures blink out when antimagic is on and return when the it turns off.

[SharkForce]

smoke is a great idea. fighting while blind kinda sucks for you, but it is absolutely awful for the beholder. eye rays (including his eye ray legendary action and lair action) are against targets he can *see*.

the second important piece of information is that you should ask your DM if you grapple the beholder, does being unable to move mean that it can no longer turn the main eye behind it?

if so, you should get someone to grapple it from behind, and then cast darkness on it. it will then be unable to see anything at all, and has a single bite attack per round to deal with you.

filling the area with smoke should likewise be quite effective, because anything that keeps it from seeing you also keeps it from slaughtering you.

another question you should ask is whether pyrotechnics creates magical smoke, or magically creates normal smoke. that's DM discretion, of course; the former means the beholder can dispel the smoke, the latter means you have a way of blinding the beholder that works even if it can aim the eye beam while grappled.

to that end, you should also be looking to leverage any other abilities you have that could possibly blind the beholder. a blinded beholder is a *much* less dangerous opponent.

[BiPolar]

smoke is a great idea. fighting while blind kinda sucks for you, but it is absolutely awful for the beholder. eye rays (including his eye ray legendary action and lair action) are against targets he can *see*.

the second important piece of information is that you should ask your DM if you grapple the beholder, does being unable to move mean that it can no longer turn the main eye behind it?

if so, you should get someone to grapple it from behind, and then cast darkness on it. it will then be unable to see anything at all, and has a single bite attack per round to deal with you.

filling the area with smoke should likewise be quite effective, because anything that keeps it from seeing you also keeps it from slaughtering you.

another question you should ask is whether pyrotechnics creates magical smoke, or magically creates normal smoke. that's DM discretion, of course; the former means the beholder can dispel the smoke, the latter means you have a way of blinding the beholder that works even if it can aim the eye beam while grappled.

to that end, you should also be looking to leverage any other abilities you have that could possibly blind the beholder. a blinded beholder is a *much* less dangerous opponent.

A grappled creature has no movement, but still has an attack. If the grappler has the Grappling feat, then they can attempt to restrain which gives advantage on your attacks and disadvantage on theirs. But they can still attack.

[N810]

How about throwing sand or dirt in it's eyes?
or making some Smokey torches or trying to bind it with ropes after you grappled it,
or other non-magical solutions.

[Lollerabe]

Using the elf as bait seems like the most logical course of action.

It seems like there is a common consensus that blind beholder = easy beholder. With that in mind, say said party had a few nets (the standard phb weapon) and decided to sew a bunch of old linen into those nets, making sure there wasn't any 'peepholes' and then added some rocks to each corner of the net to add some extra weight before finally dousing the now non see through nets in flammable oil (as a panic button Fire damg option) wouldn't that work ? According to the PHB freeing oneself from a net is only a dc 10 str strength BUT these nets are a bit heavier AND a beholder got like no arms at all, we're not really talking Houdini like escape artist skills on its behalf.

Sorc uses fairy fire, party all gets advantage on attack rolls which evens out the disadvantage from throwing at max range, the 3 other party members all throw nets, blinding it and bringing it down a bit = profit ?
This assumes the party all hit with the nets, and that the 15ft range would suffice but besides those minor issues, you should be golden.

[Finieous]

It could telekinesis or disintegrate the "blanket" you throw over it. (Technically, I believe it would have to roll one of those eyestalks randomly, but this DM doesn't sound like he will play the beholder as stupidly as designed.)

[CNagy]

First off, your Sorcerer should take advantage of his ability to exchange one of his spells on level up and get either Blindness/Deafness (especially if he has the Heighten Spell metamagic) or Earthbind (if you guys have access to the Elemental Evil spells.) Fighting a Beholder in its lair means that it might start as much as 100' in the air, depending on the lair layout. Earthbind is a concentration spell but it will not only keep the Beholder from moving, it will also drag it towards the ground 60' each round. Without this spell, good luck forcing the Beholder into melee range.

Blindness is a non-concentration spell that has a 50/50 chance of basically shutting the Beholder down for 1-10 rounds. If it can't see, it won't use its eyestalks. Heighten spell (giving the Beholder disadvantage on its first Con saving throw) makes this a lot more effective.

The Beholder's cone of antimagic is something you can take advantage of. While you won't know the exact placement of the cone, the width of the cone is equal to the distance you are from the Beholder. If you are 30' away from the Beholder, the cone is 30' wide where you are so you should be able to pick a direction and move laterally outside of its influence to cast spells. If you're feeling really ballsy, you can try to strafe outside of the cone in order to cast, and then use your remaining movement to get back into the cone in order to be immune to legendary action eyestalk rays. This depends on how willing your DM is in telling you if you are outside the cone or not. If you have some way of knowing when you've left the cone for certain, you don't need to waste extra movement making sure. Not all DMs would tell you, though.

Getting the drop on a Beholder is... difficult. Their lairs tend to be dark, and their darkvision is out to 120'. Because it takes them no effort to hover, they have zero reason to remain at rest anywhere near the ground. If it is nestled up somewhere near the ceiling, opening a new hole won't necessarily put you above it, and opening a hole above it would make too much noise/give too much of a warning to achieve surprise. I wouldn't try the stealth kill approach, because that pretty much ends in you stealthing and it killing you. Even if you got surprise and won the initiative count, you wouldn't necessarily a) deal enough damage to kill it and b) wouldn't necessarily get out unscathed. It can take a legendary action at the end of your turn regardless of surprise. Poison lasts for 1 hit or until the duration elapses, whichever occurs first. The poisons you've mentioned have saving throws, so they aren't affected by critical hits.

So you get the drop on it for 3 attacks, deal some decent damage, and then it hits you with a random eye ray. 5 of the 10 possibilities can take you out of the fight for at least your next turn and sometimes as long as a minute (or indefinitely, if it is petrification.) Say you pass the save, or you get hit with something that just deals damage, you get your next 3 attacks--still not enough to kill it. After your turn it hits you again with a random ray, then on its turn with 3 random rays. CR13 monsters played normally are not often preyed upon by 8th level characters solo.

Your party's resources are limited, the Beholder's is not. Basically, you need to get it to ground and win within a few rounds (Barbarian raging and recklessly attack, Paladin smiting for all he is worth, Sorcerer concentrating on Earthbind and firing the most destructive magic he has/recasting Blindness when the Beholder regains its sight, or else things will probably get grim.

[SharkForce]

A grappled creature has no movement, but still has an attack. If the grappler has the Grappling feat, then they can attempt to restrain which gives advantage on your attacks and disadvantage on theirs. But they can still attack.

the eye rays work on creatures it can see. no sight means no eye rays. the beholder is of course fully entitled to a single bite attack per round, as well as any lair actions that do not require sight (the only legendary actions it has also require sight, so those aren't allowed) or other improvised actions the DM wants to use.


Using the elf as bait seems like the most logical course of action.

It seems like there is a common consensus that blind beholder = easy beholder. With that in mind, say said party had a few nets (the standard phb weapon) and decided to sew a bunch of old linen into those nets, making sure there wasn't any 'peepholes' and then added some rocks to each corner of the net to add some extra weight before finally dousing the now non see through nets in flammable oil (as a panic button Fire damg option) wouldn't that work ? According to the PHB freeing oneself from a net is only a dc 10 str strength BUT these nets are a bit heavier AND a beholder got like no arms at all, we're not really talking Houdini like escape artist skills on its behalf.

Sorc uses fairy fire, party all gets advantage on attack rolls which evens out the disadvantage from throwing at max range, the 3 other party members all throw nets, blinding it and bringing it down a bit = profit ?
This assumes the party all hit with the nets, and that the 15ft range would suffice but besides those minor issues, you should be golden.

if you presume the beholder can see the nets/sheets, the beholder has at least one eye ray that will destroy it, possibly 2 (telekinesis might work, disintegrate definitely will). it might even arguably be able to bite the nets to damage them. still, it might buy you enough time (or the beholder might get lucky and disintegrate your net the instant you throw it). certainly better than fighting a beholder without trying something to blind it.

[Douche]

He didn't say that people inside the darkness can see out of it. Spells and attacks (like the beholder's eyestalks) will state whether you must see your target to use them. If you do not have to see your target for a particular action, the normal effects of blindness, your target not being able to see you, etc., will apply.

Yeah but the guy said the party would have advantage on the Beholder. How? If you can't see out of the darkness, then you're at disadvantage too.

[Finieous]

I think he just meant that (RAW) you would have disadvantage on your attacks from within the darkness, but advantage on them because the target can't see you, so it's a wash.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think he just meant that (RAW) you would have disadvantage on your attacks from within the darkness, but advantage on them because the target can't see you, so it's a wash.

I would say the first attack from the darkness would be a wash and then the others would be at disadvantage (for each PC).

The creature would be able to watch and see atracks from the darkness.

This is mostly an immersive ruling, I'm not claiming RAW.

Of course if you are a warlock with the eyesight... You gain advantage on all attacks as there is no wash and there is more immersion with this type of set up.

[JakOfAllTirades]

The anti-magic field will negate a darkness spell. I wouldn't count on getting much protection that way.

This is a melee/missile heavy party; if they stay together, the Beholder gains nothing by turning its AMF on them, because they'll respond by firing ranged weapons or closing to melee range and ripping into it. If it's capable of just blinking to fire magical ray attacks, or if it simply doesn't bother with the AMF, my advice is for the Sorcerer to make heavy use of Counterspell to protect the party, while they slaughter it as quickly as possible. Counterspell everything it does, and if there's another spellcaster besides the Sorcerer who can use Counterspell, they should also have that spell, just in case.

[Mellack]

The anti-magic field will negate a darkness spell. I wouldn't count on getting much protection that way.

This is a melee/missile heavy party; if they stay together, the Beholder gains nothing by turning its AMF on them, because they'll respond by firing ranged weapons or closing to melee range and ripping into it. If it's capable of just blinking to fire magical ray attacks, or if it simply doesn't bother with the AMF, my advice is for the Sorcerer to make heavy use of Counterspell to protect the party, while they slaughter it as quickly as possible. Counterspell everything it does, and if there's another spellcaster besides the Sorcerer who can use Counterspell, they should also have that spell, just in case.
The idea is if the Beholder uses AMF on the darkness, then it negates its own rays. If it does not use the AMF, then it cannot see through the darkness and cannot use its rays. Classic catch-22. Anything that causes effective blindness is a major hit to a beholder.

[Finieous]

Also, I don't think counterspell works on eyestalks. You have to see a creature casting a spell; the beholder is just shooting a ray at you. Not sure about that -- I'm still at work. In any case, it's a reaction, and the sorc would only get one per round, so its effectiveness would be pretty limited.

ETA: What this thread proves is that the encounter will vary widely depending on the DM, which is only odd because the DM seemingly encouraged them to use the RAW to plan their strategy but is expected not to use the RAW to resolve the encounter.

[BiPolar]

the eye rays work on creatures it can see. no sight means no eye rays. the beholder is of course fully entitled to a single bite attack per round, as well as any lair actions that do not require sight (the only legendary actions it has also require sight, so those aren't allowed) or other improvised actions the DM wants to use.

Okay, but how would grappling blind the creature?

[SharkForce]

Okay, but how would grappling blind the creature?

because the whole scenario was predicated on the idea that IF the DM rules that the beholder, once grappled from behind, cannot turn around to use the antimagic cone (which is attached to the front of its body) against a darkness spell which is attached to the person grappling the beholder from behind, then the beholder would be unable to see anyone, and thus unable to use eyestalks on anyone.

[BiPolar]

because the whole scenario was predicated on the idea that IF the DM rules that the beholder, once grappled from behind, cannot turn around to use the antimagic cone (which is attached to the front of its body) against a darkness spell which is attached to the person grappling the beholder from behind, then the beholder would be unable to see anyone, and thus unable to use eyestalks on anyone.

Fair enough, but then the DM is houseruling a change in the grapple restrictions, which is perfectly fine. But by RAW, the grapple only restricts movement and not action.

[Gignere]

Have sorcerer get phantasmal force, if he has heightened even better. Go in phantasmal force and create an illusion that blinds the beholder, maybe one that damages him too at the same time. Maybe he is surrounded by superheated volcanic smoke. Beholder will have to spend action to investigate to get out assuming it fails the first save.

Rest of party beat it into submission. The anti magic eye beam should not affect phantasmal force at all since the magic is in the beholder's mind.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Have sorcerer get phantasmal force, if he has heightened even better. Go in phantasmal force and create an illusion that blinds the beholder, maybe one that damages him too at the same time. Maybe he is surrounded by superheated volcanic smoke. Beholder will have to spend action to investigate to get out assuming it fails the first save.

Rest of party beat it into submission. The anti magic eye beam should not affect phantasmal force at all since the magic is in the beholder's mind.

Shadow Elemental? Yeah it ain't a real thing but that's kinda the point.

Or maybe have it replicate the hunger of hadar spell, just not as damaging of course.

[Gignere]

The cool thing about phantasmal force is that it is an int save and an investigation check I doubt the beholder is proficient with either.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The cool thing about phantasmal force is that it is an int save and an investigation check I doubt the beholder is proficient with either.

Int Check: +3
Int Save: +8

Not very reliable.

[Gignere]

I hope their sorcerer has heightened otherwise darkness is the better bet what is its con save?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I hope their sorcerer has heightened otherwise darkness is the better bet what is its con save?

+4

Their weakest check/saves are

Str: +0
Dex: +2

Passive Perception 22

Wis and Cha saves are +7/+8

Can't be proned.

Best bet is strength and dex saves.


====
There needs to be a cosmic druid that can turn into beholders.


Edit

Also I really recommend not messing with this thing, the lair actions and legendary actions alone are brutal.

Also I love the art for this monster.


Edit 2

Also, maybe your DM will be nice and just have you fight the Spectator? CR 3 doesn't sound bad...

[Gignere]

Go with blind instead of phantasmal. Typically the int saves in the MM are pretty weak but I guess not for the beholder. Is

[Gignere]

The crazy thing is that a diviner with the right spells and portent rolls could steamroll the beholder. Diviner is just too good.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The crazy thing is that a diviner with the right spells and portent rolls could steamroll the beholder. Diviner is just too good.

Not at level 8 (which is what this party is at, I think), unless the wizard is super optimized, the lair actions and the legendary actions alone would mess up the wizard.

At initiative 20 and after each turn of the wizard the beholder gets to shoot the wizard with a free eye beam. In one round the wizard may blow through their portent ability. As an action the beholder gets three more eye beams.

Or it can antimagic the wizard and bite him to death.

Plus these things are pretty smart, wise, and charming. They ain't going to be sitting around while people sneak in. A +12 perception (passive 22) means it will hear and see most enemies coming.

What do you do if it attempts to seduce the wizard? O_o

[Gignere]

Not at level 8 (which is what this party is at, I think), unless the wizard is super optimized, the lair actions and the legendary actions alone would mess up the wizard.

At initiative 20 and after each turn of the wizard the beholder gets to shoot the wizard with a free eye beam. In one round the wizard may blow through their portent ability. As an action the beholder gets three more eye beams.

Or it can antimagic the wizard and bite him to death.

Plus these things are pretty smart, wise, and charming. They ain't going to be sitting around while people sneak in. A +12 perception (passive 22) means it will hear and see most enemies coming.

What do you do if it attempts to seduce the wizard? O_o

The rest of the party will be fodder for he lair and legendary actions preferably. Diviner blinds beholder with spell with portent roll. Party now beat the beholder like a piñata. If beholder finally saves blind it again with second portent roll. Should get 3 to 4 rounds of non stop beating on said beholder which hopefully is enough to put it down.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The rest of the party will be fodder for he lair and legendary actions preferably. Diviner blinds beholder with spell with portent roll. Party now beat the beholder like a piñata. If beholder finally saves blind it again with second portent roll. Should get 3 to 4 rounds of non stop beating on said beholder which hopefully is enough to put it down.

The beholder knows who the real threat is. Also with how paranoid they are... Just walking in on one and being able to impose your will doesn't sound likely.

The thing about its legendary actions is that it can take 3 /round but 1 at the end of other creatures turns. So with more enemies (at least two more) it gains 7 Eye beams a round... That wizard would be its prefered target.

Played by its fluff, this thing is destroying most groups. At level 8.

The fluff of their lairs make me think that most martial characters will be useless. First sign of trouble it will dash into its passages and then kite the party...


Edit

Also, the legendary action may allow for the beholder to attack with an eye ray even if they can't see the target as the wording is different from the Eye Ray action. DM dependent of course.

[JoeJ]

Make sure you have a plan for moving around in the lair (if you fight it there). Given its intelligence, continuous flight, and ability to carve rock with the Disintegrate beam, I'd expect a three-dimensional environment with a lot of smooth, vertical passages that are really tough to climb. And, of course, using magical flight of any kind would be a very bad idea.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Make sure you have a plan for moving around in the lair (if you fight it there). Given its intelligence, continuous flight, and ability to carve rock with the Disintegrate beam, I'd expect a three-dimensional environment with a lot of smooth, vertical passages that are really tough to climb. And, of course, using magical flight of any kind would be a very bad idea.

This is what in was thinking earlier and then, well, why would a beholder have an entrance that just anyone could walk through? They are xenophobic loners after all and they are kinda paranoid.

The opening would be a normal cave entrance looking place but then there would be a whole in the ground and about a 50' -100' drop (maybe the beholder's entrance is on top of a hill/mountain).

Or just the opposite. A beholder hope leading straight up 100'. The beholder will typically stay at the top and Make them drop to their death, I'm sure we make interesting sounds.

Actually, with some's love for turning adventurers into stone... Climb up 100' only to be turned into stone. And then drop 100' and break upon impact with the planet.

I don't have an Int 17 so anything I think up of should be fair game for the beholder (17 Int).

[Skylivedk]

Hello guys! Thank you for all the good advice.

I'll reply to your input and share my thoughts.


How about throwing sand or dirt in it's eyes?
or making some Smokey torches or trying to bind it with ropes after you grappled it,
or other non-magical solutions.

Sand or dirt in 11 eyes at a distance seem rather hard. What purpose does binding a floating ball of evil serve? Attaching grappling hooks to it and having our camel pull it has crossed my mind (I kinda like looney plans)


Using the elf as bait seems like the most logical course of action.

It seems like there is a common consensus that blind beholder = easy beholder. With that in mind, say said party had a few nets (the standard phb weapon) and decided to sew a bunch of old linen into those nets, making sure there wasn't any 'peepholes' and then added some rocks to each corner of the net to add some extra weight before finally dousing the now non see through nets in flammable oil (as a panic button Fire damg option) wouldn't that work ? According to the PHB freeing oneself from a net is only a dc 10 str strength BUT these nets are a bit heavier AND a beholder got like no arms at all, we're not really talking Houdini like escape artist skills on its behalf.

Sorc uses fairy fire, party all gets advantage on attack rolls which evens out the disadvantage from throwing at max range, the 3 other party members all throw nets, blinding it and bringing it down a bit = profit ?
This assumes the party all hit with the nets, and that the 15ft range would suffice but besides those minor issues, you should be golden.

Since you're part of the party, I guess that's a we should be golden. The bait (or elf) is the only one without disadvantage on the net (and the only capable ranged DPS alongside the sorcerer), so I suggest we unbait him and start a competition in "Elf-Throw" to make it work... that's also hoping for a 20 ft. hovering beholder.


It could telekinesis or disintegrate the "blanket" you throw over it. (Technically, I believe it would have to roll one of those eyestalks randomly, but this DM doesn't sound like he will play the beholder as stupidly as designed.)

If we can find enough linen and get close enough, the plan isn't all that bad... depending on whether or not the beholder can choose to disintegrate. If it can, the plan sucks (then we've wasted all the attacks for 1 character for 1/6 or 1/7 attacks of the beholder). We'll ask.


First off, your Sorcerer should take advantage of his ability to exchange one of his spells on level up and get either Blindness/Deafness (especially if he has the Heighten Spell metamagic) or Earthbind (if you guys have access to the Elemental Evil spells.) Fighting a Beholder in its lair means that it might start as much as 100' in the air, depending on the lair layout. Earthbind is a concentration spell but it will not only keep the Beholder from moving, it will also drag it towards the ground 60' each round. Without this spell, good luck forcing the Beholder into melee range.

Blindness is a non-concentration spell that has a 50/50 chance of basically shutting the Beholder down for 1-10 rounds. If it can't see, it won't use its eyestalks. Heighten spell (giving the Beholder disadvantage on its first Con saving throw) makes this a lot more effective.

The Beholder's cone of antimagic is something you can take advantage of. While you won't know the exact placement of the cone, the width of the cone is equal to the distance you are from the Beholder. If you are 30' away from the Beholder, the cone is 30' wide where you are so you should be able to pick a direction and move laterally outside of its influence to cast spells. If you're feeling really ballsy, you can try to strafe outside of the cone in order to cast, and then use your remaining movement to get back into the cone in order to be immune to legendary action eyestalk rays. This depends on how willing your DM is in telling you if you are outside the cone or not. If you have some way of knowing when you've left the cone for certain, you don't need to waste extra movement making sure. Not all DMs would tell you, though.

Getting the drop on a Beholder is... difficult. Their lairs tend to be dark, and their darkvision is out to 120'. Because it takes them no effort to hover, they have zero reason to remain at rest anywhere near the ground. If it is nestled up somewhere near the ceiling, opening a new hole won't necessarily put you above it, and opening a hole above it would make too much noise/give too much of a warning to achieve surprise. I wouldn't try the stealth kill approach, because that pretty much ends in you stealthing and it killing you. Even if you got surprise and won the initiative count, you wouldn't necessarily a) deal enough damage to kill it and b) wouldn't necessarily get out unscathed. It can take a legendary action at the end of your turn regardless of surprise. Poison lasts for 1 hit or until the duration elapses, whichever occurs first. The poisons you've mentioned have saving throws, so they aren't affected by critical hits.

So you get the drop on it for 3 attacks, deal some decent damage, and then it hits you with a random eye ray. 5 of the 10 possibilities can take you out of the fight for at least your next turn and sometimes as long as a minute (or indefinitely, if it is petrification.) Say you pass the save, or you get hit with something that just deals damage, you get your next 3 attacks--still not enough to kill it. After your turn it hits you again with a random ray, then on its turn with 3 random rays. CR13 monsters played normally are not often preyed upon by 8th level characters solo.

Your party's resources are limited, the Beholder's is not. Basically, you need to get it to ground and win within a few rounds (Barbarian raging and recklessly attack, Paladin smiting for all he is worth, Sorcerer concentrating on Earthbind and firing the most destructive magic he has/recasting Blindness when the Beholder regains its sight, or else things will probably get grim.

a) I love the idea of blindness and I just suggested it to our sorcerer. Unfortunately, he has no Heighten metamagic (but will get it ASAP, I hope).

b) Thank you for the strong point regarding Antimagic Cone Management.

c) The Stealthy Kill approach wasn't so much thought to kill it outright as bring it down to around 50% and poison it. But let's do the math for it :)

With Haste, Pass without Trace, Bless and Bardic Inspiration we're looking at sniper with the following:

Stealth:
Avg. 19.5 = +4 Dex +3 Proficiency + 10 Pass Without Trace + 1d4 Bless (and with a possibility of another +1d6)

Avg: +13.5 to hit (+17 when spending bardic).
Breakdown: +11 to hit (+4 from Dex, +1 from magic bow, +2 from Archery, +3 from Proficiency, +1 from magic arrow; forgot to mention that one) +1d4 (and, if necessary, +1d6)

Basically an average to hit between 75% and 95% depending on Bardic Inspiration - before advantage. With advantage we're at 93.75% for the worse of the outcomes.

3 Attacks, average damage before poison, no Hunter's Mark (I don't count on the beholder being within 60 ft):

If surprising (assassin auto-crit): 80 avg DMG (no poison).

1st attack: Avg: 33 = 2*(1d8+2d6+1d4)+5 (dex and arrow)
2nd attack: Avg: 28 = 2*(1d8+1d8+1d4)+5
3rd attack: Avg: 19 = 2*(1d8+1d4)+5

[EDIT: The following about throws is wrong: poisoned doesn't affect Saving Throws just ability checks; I, for some reason, though that ability checks included saving throws]
The whole point though, is to get the condition poisoned on it. Poisoned would give it disadvantage on all following throws - including the wyvervn poison with 7d6 dmg (an average of 24.5 dmg). The poison with that might make this happen has an average of 22 dmg.

The beholder has an average chance of succeeding against the debilitating poison of 55% pr. saving throw. So if all arrows hit that's a chance of 90.8875% (1-0.45^3) of the beholder getting poisoned.

Once poisoned it has a chance of around 25% of saving against the stronger more damaging poison. [EDIT: the more damaging poison would have a 50% chance pr. hit; regardless of the poisoned condition]

After shooting the first round, the elf-bait would run back (bonus action dash if necessary for 140 ft run) to his companions with his double speed and let the barbarian and paladin charge forward with roped and poisoned spears. If the elf-bait has higher initiative (and remember, he has a higher modifier plus advantage plus bless), he'd get another round with advantage and sneak attack for: 46.5 dmg before poison.

1st attack: Avg: 19 = 1d8+2d6+1d4+5 (dex and arrow)
2nd attack: Avg: 16.5 = 1d8+1d8+1d4+4
3rd attack: Avg: 11 = 1d8+1d4+4

That's a total of 126.5 dmg before poison. So the poison has to deal 54 dmg. That's very far from being unlikely. [EDIT: to be precise, the chance of the wyvern poison working once is +98%, two of them working for an average damage of 49 is 76,6%).

I'd still much rather have the party engage as well. Especially because I'd hate this to be another example of my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474989-Tactically-outplaying-the-DM)

But as you can see - even without the follow up round or without crits (just advantage from being unseen), the elf-bait is dealing 25%-44% of the beholder's HP pr. round.


the eye rays work on creatures it can see. no sight means no eye rays. the beholder is of course fully entitled to a single bite attack per round, as well as any lair actions that do not require sight (the only legendary actions it has also require sight, so those aren't allowed) or other improvised actions the DM wants to use.



if you presume the beholder can see the nets/sheets, the beholder has at least one eye ray that will destroy it, possibly 2 (telekinesis might work, disintegrate definitely will). it might even arguably be able to bite the nets to damage them. still, it might buy you enough time (or the beholder might get lucky and disintegrate your net the instant you throw it). certainly better than fighting a beholder without trying something to blind it.

I think, he'd disintegrate the nets - but it'd be nice if the DM went by RAW here.


The anti-magic field will negate a darkness spell. I wouldn't count on getting much protection that way.

This is a melee/missile heavy party; if they stay together, the Beholder gains nothing by turning its AMF on them, because they'll respond by firing ranged weapons or closing to melee range and ripping into it. If it's capable of just blinking to fire magical ray attacks, or if it simply doesn't bother with the AMF, my advice is for the Sorcerer to make heavy use of Counterspell to protect the party, while they slaughter it as quickly as possible. Counterspell everything it does, and if there's another spellcaster besides the Sorcerer who can use Counterspell, they should also have that spell, just in case.

Can't counterspell rays, nor more than once pr. turn. It is true, that the human blob is effective though. Especially because our darling paladin is a true to life version of SpongeBob SquarePants who can take the damage meant for the rest of his jolly crew without disintegrating or instantly dying (instead just dropping to 0 hp).


The idea is if the Beholder uses AMF on the darkness, then it negates its own rays. If it does not use the AMF, then it cannot see through the darkness and cannot use its rays. Classic catch-22. Anything that causes effective blindness is a major hit to a beholder.

And then we could attach grappling hooks to it and climb it :D


Have sorcerer get phantasmal force, if he has heightened even better. Go in phantasmal force and create an illusion that blinds the beholder, maybe one that damages him too at the same time. Maybe he is surrounded by superheated volcanic smoke. Beholder will have to spend action to investigate to get out assuming it fails the first save.

Rest of party beat it into submission. The anti magic eye beam should not affect phantasmal force at all since the magic is in the beholder's mind.

I love the phantasmal force idea - but an int save is our worst save to go for.


+4

Their weakest check/saves are

Str: +0
Dex: +2

Passive Perception 22

Wis and Cha saves are +7/+8

Can't be proned.

Best bet is strength and dex saves.


====
There needs to be a cosmic druid that can turn into beholders.


Edit

Also I really recommend not messing with this thing, the lair actions and legendary actions alone are brutal.

Also I love the art for this monster.


Edit 2

Also, maybe your DM will be nice and just have you fight the Spectator? CR 3 doesn't sound bad...


I agree with edit 1. My first thought exactly. We just killed a zombie beholder. I doubt the big bad one would be a step down in challenge rating ;)

My current best plan is:

a) for the sorcerer to pick up earth bind and dispel magic (I don't want SpongeBob stoned and counting on the beholder being within 60 ft so we can blind it seems... naive at best). He's not going to be happy about not having a lvl 4 spell, so it is perhaps a very, very hard sell.

b) have javelins and +1 arrows poisoned with poison that can give the poisoned condition.

c) attempt the sneak and flee if it fails

d) let the pala and barb charge in (and if c. failed pull the first round of rays before bait and sorc join the fray)

e) pin and poison big ugly while he is dragged to is doom.

f) wail incessantly until

G)'s up, ho(lder)s down.

[SharkForce]

hate to break it to you, but poisoned condition doesn't give a penalty on saves. only attacks and checks. that still makes it easier to, say, grapple the beholder, and harder for it to escape a web if you somehow manage to get it into one, but it unfortunately doesn't do much for making it fail the save against wyvern poison.

[Skylivedk]

hate to break it to you, but poisoned condition doesn't give a penalty on saves. only attacks and checks. that still makes it easier to, say, grapple the beholder, and harder for it to escape a web if you somehow manage to get it into one, but it unfortunately doesn't do much for making it fail the save against wyvern poison.

No reason to say "hate to break it to you" - that was a major misunderstanding on my part. Thank you for pointing it out!

I guess, it's straight for the wyvern poison then :)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Hmmm, Earthbind is a good spell for dealing with the Beholder.

However, you have to be able to see the Beholder to do it. I don't think you will be able to sneak up on this thing, at least, not with a whole party.

I think the devs ruled out, or said they suggested, that stealth didn't work with group rolls. I'll have to find it though.

However the Beholder is immune to being prone, so even with eartbind I don't think you could prone the beholder. Weird, right? I would say that the monster trait (Condition Immunity: Prone) is more specific than the spell... So while you could stop it from moving, if you find or catch it, it won't ever prone it.

Of course, I'm not sure if you would ever catch it out in the open, kobolds know how to life and they have Int 8, this thing has Int 17.

[Skylivedk]

Hmmm, Earthbind is a good spell for dealing with the Beholder.

However, you have to be able to see the Beholder to do it. I don't think you will be able to sneak up on this thing, at least, not with a whole party.

I think the devs ruled out, or said they suggested, that stealth didn't work with group rolls. I'll have to find it though.

However the Beholder is immune to being prone, so even with eartbind I don't think you could prone the beholder. Weird, right? I would say that the monster trait (Condition Immunity: Prone) is more specific than the spell... So while you could stop it from moving, if you find or catch it, it won't ever prone it.

Of course, I'm not sure if you would ever catch it out in the open, kobolds know how to life and they have Int 8, this thing has Int 17.

1. We don't need the whole party to sneak up on it. Actually, none of our plans depend on it. The only sneaky plan includes the sneaky dude getting of a lot sneaky crits. I will happily leave the platemail-wearing Paladin and the suicidal Barbarian behind while I deliver the opening salvo and get the hell out of dodge (and sight, so no legendary eye-ray for me, thank you, sir).

2. Prone is nice for advantage. It isn't necessary though: The Barbarian can recklessly chuck away at no disadvantage (the eye-rays are all save-based, and we'd be gleefully blinking in incomprehension if the beholder chooses to bite us :) ). We just want it within whack-a-mole distance.

3. I really hope we don't catch it out in the open. That would be the most unepic fight ever. It'd be target practice for the sharpshooting elf and the three other guys drinking tea, while remarking on how sunny a day in the desert it happens to be.

The beholder only has 120 ft of range with its beams and 20 ft of movement speed. Elf-bait has 600 ft of range, 35 ft of movement and a possibility of dashing as a bonus action.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

1. We don't need the whole party to sneak up on it. Actually, none of our plans depend on it. The only sneaky plan includes the sneaky dude getting of a lot sneaky crits. I will happily leave the platemail-wearing Paladin and the suicidal Barbarian behind while I deliver the opening salvo and get the hell out of dodge (and sight, so no legendary eye-ray for me, thank you, sir).

2. Prone is nice for advantage. It isn't necessary though: The Barbarian can recklessly chuck away at no disadvantage (the eye-rays are all save-based, and we'd be gleefully blinking in incomprehension if the beholder chooses to bite us :) ). We just want it within whack-a-mole distance.

3. I really hope we don't catch it out in the open. That would be the most unepic fight ever. It'd be target practice for the sharpshooting elf and the three other guys drinking tea, while remarking on how sunny a day in the desert it happens to be.

The beholder only has 120 ft of range with its beams and 20 ft of movement speed. Elf-bait has 600 ft of range, 35 ft of movement and a possibility of dashing as a bonus action.

See, if played half way intelligently, only one or two PCs would be able to attack at one time. With the way their lairs are set up, it will be playing whack a mole with you.

Flight should be a mostly-mandatory ability to get through the beholder lair. Think if you took a normal dungeon and flipped it on its side (so instead of running horizontally it is running vertically). Without flight you will need to climb smooth walls, have fun with that ;).

I'm not saying you can't devise a way to take out a beholder, stuff happens, but taking out an Intelligent creature on its home turf should not and is not something that is likely IF the creature is played to its fluff. If the DM plays to your strengths and doesn't really play the beholder as a beholder then you would have a shot at whack a mole.