Use-activated item of cure light wounds for 2000gp?

[Eladrinblade]

Am I missing something?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Am I missing something?

Besides the fact a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750) will last most camapaigns. And when it doesn't, a second will and still be cheaper.

[AvatarVecna]

Am I missing something?

A DM both metaphorically and literally throwing the book at you.

To be clear, tricks like this are what makes WBLmancy and custom items so reviled by sane DMs. You think unlimited healing is bad, how about trade that CLW for the Mount spell and have an armies worth of horses at your beck and call. It can get pretty broken, if you abuse it (if you go high enough epic, you can do this with Time Stop and you've basically taken over unless your DM is playing with one of the suggested epic houserules).

[Troacctid]

No such item exists in the rules. If you were creating a custom item with that effect, you'd have to estimate its value relative to other items with a similar function, taking into account its relative desirability and the appropriate level at which you'd want a PC to obtain it.

[Beheld]

Am I missing something?

Why Cure Light Wounds when Cure Minor Wounds exist?

But yes, that is one of the many many many many reasons that the item creation guidelines are guidelines, and specifically say that you have to measure items against existing items and only use the price tables if nothing else exists.

[Half-Wizard]

It can get pretty broken, if you abuse it (if you go high enough epic, you can do this with Time Stop and you've basically taken over unless your DM is playing with one of the suggested epic houserules).

What houserule?

[AvatarVecna]

What houserule?

There's a houserule presented in the epic level handbook that suggests that DMs give the Time Stop spell SR Yes in epic games. Mind you, bypassing most forms of SR is childsplay anyway, and Time Stop having SR Yes doesnt really fit Time Stops fluff, but the fact remains that it adds an actual way to be unaffected by Time stop, meaning a lvl 9001 overdeity will go from being always effected by Time stop to never being affected by it.

[Eladrinblade]

What would be a decent price for a "Rod of Healing" (use-activated cure light wounds)?

[AvatarVecna]

What would be a decent price for a "Rod of Healing" (use-activated cure light wounds)?

As a DM, I'd be perfectly fine with charging you 2000 for it...but because you whipped that cheese out, I'd be using it for the bad guys as well. Realistically? Despite only replicating a 1st lvl spell, this is a game-changing item, especially if you play on a larger scale. Do you know what kind of budget the military will be working with? Do you know how much money they would pour into this if it was available, even if it was extremely expensive? If I was to have something like this in a more realistic campaign, I'd ban the low-level version and make a higher level version a full-blown artifact: Panacea Gloves, capable of casting Mass Heal at-will as well as some other benefits. Again, full blown artifact.

[DarkSoul]

What would be a decent price for a "Rod of Healing" (use-activated cure light wounds)?

Pearly white spindle ioun stone regenerates 1 hit point per hour. Statistically, this rod regenerates (5.5 average for 1d8+1 * 10 rounds per minute * 60 minutes per hour) 3,300 hit points per hour.

The Ioun stone costs 20,000 gold. This should be 200,000 gold at least, if not very, very epic.

That being said, it really is just infinite cure lights at CL 1, as standard actions. I'd price it somewhere in the 12-16k range.

[Jormengand]

Honestly, I don't mind my party having infinite out-of-combat healing in less gritty games anyway a lot of the time, but the custom item rules - which also brought us the aptly-named Staff of Instant Death (Not that aptly named, given that the staff itself was mundane and just served as a pointing rod for the wondrous item stuck on the end of it that constantly spewed infinite dice of flaming freezing electric acidic death at anything you pointed it at) - are not the way to price it.

[Troacctid]

The DMG's guidelines for custom magic items would put it at 4000 gp, which seems reasonable to me. The closest comparison is probably a big pile of wands. How many charges do you need before they effectively become unlimited? I think five or six wands' worth sounds about right.


Pearly white spindle ioun stone regenerates 1 hit point per hour. Statistically, this rod regenerates (5.5 average for 1d8+1 * 10 rounds per minute * 60 minutes per hour) 3,300 hit points per hour.

The Ioun stone costs 20,000 gold. This should be 200,000 gold at least, if not very, very epic.

The pearly white spindle ioun stone is also a junk item that nobody would ever buy, so it's a pretty bad comparison.

[DarkSoul]

Agreed, thus the post edit just now. It's one of those corner cases like Boots of Expeditious Retreat. It's really, REALLY good for its cost, so you have to raise the cost quite a bit to make up for the quality of the item.

[Magesmiley]

It would really depend on some other factors. Are you willing to limit the number of used per day? Increase the time to use it (full round, minute, 10 minutes)?

There's also a point where your actions are more valuable than a CLW, even if you can do it every level. An item like this is more valuable to low-level characters in-combat than it is higher-level ones.

Assuming you want to keep it 1 action, usable at will...

Myself, 20,000-30,000 would put it in the range where I'd be ok with it. At that cost, a reusable out of combat, "we're healed" effect is reasonable. And at that cost, the characters should be at a level where using it in combat is not a good gambit from an action standpoint.

[Ravens_cry]

Am I missing something?
Yes, the table's formula on costs, especially for Wondrous Items, is a suggestion and general guideline for DM to base new items on. It's explicitly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#otherConsiderations) not set in stone:

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

[Cruiser1]

Besides the fact a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750) will last most camapaigns.
It's prudent for DM's to review custom magic items to avoid imbalance in their campaign. However, free healing isn't that overpowered, especially at higher levels. Healing 1d8+1 hp per round is around fast healing 5, which is nice but won't help you against serious damage. Even epic army versions such as items or autoresetting traps of Mass Heal won't do much, since the dangers at that level take away 100's of hp at once, or do nasty things other than hp damage.


Pearly white spindle ioun stone regenerates 1 hit point per hour. The Ioun stone costs 20,000 gold.
Pearly white spindle ioun stone also says, "Regeneration from the pearly white ioun stone works like a ring of regeneration." Therefore it provides more than just healing, because it regenerates severed limbs and such like the ring and the 7th level spell. An item that only heals 1 hp per hour, without also providing regeneration, would be much cheaper.

[Telonius]

Oh, they can exist all right. That's what the Interfaith Clerical Council was set up to prevent. They have Divinations set up all across the material plane that will alert an elite squad of Level-20 Clerics the second that someone even thinks about making one. If that kind of an item were widely available, it would completely break the stranglehold they have on the healing item market, and that's something no deity would allow.

[zergling.exe]

Oh, they can exist all right. That's what the Interfaith Clerical Council was set up to prevent. They have Divinations set up all across the material plane that will alert an elite squad of Level-20 Clerics the second that someone even thinks about making one. If that kind of an item were widely available, it would completely break the stranglehold they have on the healing item market, and that's something no deity would allow.

So if you make it on the Negative Energy Plane...

[nedz]

Am I missing something?

I'll raise you a Sword of (Use activated) True Strike for about the same price.

Yeah - the item creation rules are silly sometimes.

[MisterKaws]

There's a houserule presented in the epic level handbook that suggests that DMs give the Time Stop spell SR Yes in epic games. Mind you, bypassing most forms of SR is childsplay anyway, and Time Stop having SR Yes doesnt really fit Time Stops fluff, but the fact remains that it adds an actual way to be unaffected by Time stop, meaning a lvl 9001 overdeity will go from being always effected by Time stop to never being affected by it.

Deities with enough power to go against epics have a precognition of at least two weeks, so they are supposed to be played as metagame'd as possible, allowing them to be at least 9001 times more prepared than the batman Wizard is at any given time.

[Troacctid]

I'll raise you a Sword of (Use activated) True Strike for about the same price.

Yeah - the item creation rules are silly sometimes.

Use-activated items use the same activation time as the original spell, so 2000 gp for use-activated True Strike seems pretty reasonable to me.

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
Quickened True Strike is pretty powerful, but it's also a 5th level spell, so it's a lot more expensive--the guidelines put it at 90,000 gp at the minimum caster level. Probably still underpriced, because +20 is a lot, but at least you're not talking crazy talk.

(Continuous True Strike, of course, is actually overpriced at 8000 gp, which I think is more than most people would reasonably expect to pay for a one-shot effect.)

[nedz]

Use-activated items use the same activation time as the original spell, so 2000 gp for use-activated True Strike seems pretty reasonable to me.

No, that isn't actually true (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#useActivated).

The rules are a little vague though.

[Troacctid]

No, that isn't actually true (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#useActivated).

The rules are a little vague though.

You missed a relevant rule a couple sections up. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#usingItems)


However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

Custom magic items don't have an item description to override the general rule. I mean, unless you write one, but if you deviate from the usual rules, you're probably deviating from the pricing guidelines as well.

Rules Compendium also divided use-activated items up into continuously functioning items (no action), manipulation activation (depends on the item), and mental activation (same activation time as the spell).

[nedz]

Specific trumps general



This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Also,

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all.

[Troacctid]

"Unless stated otherwise"

The other rule states otherwise in the case of use-activated items that duplicate a spell.

[Necroticplague]

Quickened True Strike is pretty powerful, but it's also a 5th level spell, so it's a lot more expensive--the guidelines put it at 90,000 gp at the minimum caster level. Probably still underpriced, because +20 is a lot, but at least you're not talking crazy talk.

(Continuous True Strike, of course, is actually overpriced at 8000 gp, which I think is more than most people would reasonably expect to pay for a one-shot effect.)

Actually, Quickened True Strike is only a level 1 spell.

[Troacctid]

Actually, Quickened True Strike is only a level 1 spell.

It's treated as a 5th level spell for pricing magic items that use it.

[YossarianLives]

To be clear, tricks like this are what makes WBLmancy and custom items so reviled by sane DMs. You think unlimited healing is bad, how about trade that CLW for the Mount spell and have an armies worth of horses at your beck and call. It can get pretty broken, if you abuse it (if you go high enough epic, you can do this with Time Stop and you've basically taken over unless your DM is playing with one of the suggested epic houserules).
I've seen horsemancers absolutely shred campaigns. It gets worse once you unlock royal procession.

[CharonsHelper]

Use-activated items use the same activation time as the original spell, so 2000 gp for use-activated True Strike seems pretty reasonable to me.

Even if it does take a standard action to activate (not going to get into the argument as I don't touch the custom magic item rules with a 39.5 foot pole) you aren't trying very hard if you don't realize how easy that would be to abuse.

For normal attacks it'd be borderline too good against anything with good defenses, especially if they had concealment. (Maybe not game-breaking, but definitely game shifting.)

For attack roll based maneuvers like sunder it'd be stupidly broken. Maxxed Power Attack and practically an auto-win on sundering with an adamantine weapon anyone? Virtually anything with less than hardness 20 would be instantly destroyed.

[Lightlawbliss]

I've seen horsemancers absolutely shred campaigns. It gets worse once you unlock royal procession.

They don't shred campaigns, they trample them. (sorry, I had to)

Also, an army of untrained light horses has some rather big weaknesses that the clever DM can take advantage of.

Back on topic: I have no problem with my players having unlimited out of combat healing, it greatly reduced how much I have to worry about them running out of resources so I can hit them harder. :) If I really want them to not heal to full between fights, not giving them the means isn't the way. Giving them a reason to not stand there for multiple minutes healing is the way (even just telling the high listen check character(s) that they hear stuff being moved around in the next room can give them a sense of urgency).

[Tohsaka Rin]

I have no problem with my players having unlimited out of combat healing, it greatly reduced how much I have to worry about them running out of resources so I can hit them harder. :)

It literally depends on the kind of campaign style you run, and what your players enjoy. Personally, I totally agree with the quote in question. In fact, my players prefer such things, the only thing that bothers them, is having the flow of a pitched series of battles stalled because they have to heal up.

Of course, as always, your mileage may vary.

[Troacctid]

Even if it does take a standard action to activate (not going to get into the argument as I don't touch the custom magic item rules with a 39.5 foot pole) you aren't trying very hard if you don't realize how easy that would be to abuse.

For normal attacks it'd be borderline too good against anything with good defenses, especially if they had concealment. (Maybe not game-breaking, but definitely game shifting.)

For attack roll based maneuvers like sunder it'd be stupidly broken. Maxxed Power Attack and practically an auto-win on sundering with an adamantine weapon anyone? Virtually anything with less than hardness 20 would be instantly destroyed.

You can do all that with a wand. It's not a big deal. I doubt you'd ever use up all 50 charges.

[Necroticplague]

Meh. in my experience, some form of unlimited out of combat healing (or at least, so effectively large as to be effectively infinite) is so common as to practically be the default. And that's a good thing, as it makes it way easier to design encounters that are actually interesting and challenging encounters (instead of being a boring slogs of attrition or completely luck-based missions).

[vasilidor]

1. I have played in a campaign where we ran through three cure light wound wands by eighth level. there were a lot of fatalities as well in that one.
2. I house-rule that all such items as the one proposed here have a maximum uses per day (five).

[dramatic flare]

Besides the fact a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750) will last most camapaigns. And when it doesn't, a second will and still be cheaper.

And yet my campaigns always seem to burn those....
of course, the most recent reason was due to bad writing of a module. Our party went up two levels over the course one single day (and only survived because the DM gave us a full restock of all spells, hitpoints, ammo, etc, with the first one). We also burned through three cure light wounds wands. Hmm, though two were not fully charged, so it was probably more like two.
Still, just the worst writing.

[legomaster00156]

I've seen horsemancers absolutely shred campaigns.
Can I sig this? :smallbiggrin:

[YossarianLives]

Can I sig this? :smallbiggrin:
Go ahead! I'm so proud.

[ericgrau]

First it's not a rule it's a guideline. It's up to the DM whether or it is fair or not. Unlimited items are the most common situation where it is not fair.

With a party cleric it takes a long time to burn through a 750 gp wand. Without a cleric I've actually done it in a single session. Throughout a campaign, especially before the gold becomes a pittance and especially with a cleric, you might only use 3-4 CLW wands anyway so a similar price for an at-will item isn't that bad.

While it doesn't wreck adventuring parties, what it does wreck is entire worlds. That's 14,400 charges a day. Set up an appointment system and watch the town or army flourish with 144,000 gp worth of healing per day from a 2,000 gp item.

The solution is to give the party 3 wands which has nearly the same effect as unlimited for a party without changing the world, or give them something like a 30/week item which has nearly the same effect as unlimited for a party without changing the world.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
While it doesn't wreck adventuring parties, what it does wreck is entire worlds. That's 14,400 charges a day. Set up an appointment system and watch the town or army flourish with 144,000 gp worth of healing per day from a 2,000 gp item.
...

I have never seen that as a problem. The local clinic can heal basic injuries for next to nothing (they have to pay guards' and operators' wages and eventually recover the cost of the item) and the community as a whole is better off. The guard got seriously cut stopping a bar fight? He can be back on the job latter that night. Kid falls down the well and badly hurts his leg? He can be back on the farm tomorrow. Instead of looking at it as destroying a world, it is better to know it exists and build the world with that in mind.

[ATHATH]

Honestly, I don't mind my party having infinite out-of-combat healing in less gritty games anyway a lot of the time, but the custom item rules - which also brought us the aptly-named Staff of Instant Death (Not that aptly named, given that the staff itself was mundane and just served as a pointing rod for the wondrous item stuck on the end of it that constantly spewed infinite dice of flaming freezing electric acidic death at anything you pointed it at) - are not the way to price it.
What is the Staff of Instant Death?

[Jormengand]

What is the Staff of Instant Death?

Staff of Instant Death
This simple quarterstaff has a metallic object, a little like a funnel or cup, jammed onto the end. From the cup, a metal plate - part of the same item - extends down the quarterstaff, and responds to the touch of a certain kind of user, spitting four kinds of death from the funnel when touched.

A staff of instant death is a quarterstaff and is not itself magical. However, a creature who touches the cup or the metal plate activate the cup on the end if it meets the requirements - a staff of instant death only responds to a creature of a certain class or alignment, and there is also a skill which the user must have at least one rank in to activate the staff (these requirements are set by the creator). While the staff is active, it spits out a visibly energetic cone 15 feet out from the cup, and any creature even momentarily caught in this cone repeatedly takes 1d4 points of each of fire, cold, acid and electricity damage, continually and repeatedly, for as long as they are in the area - if a creature is in the area, it is taking damage.
Faint evocation, CL 1st, Craft Wondrous Item, Energy Substitution, burning hands; Price 3300 GP; Weight 5 lb.

Price calculation: 2000 for first burning hands, 1500 for 2nd, 1000 for third, 1000 for fourth (Continuous =2000*CL*Spell level = 2000, multiple similar abilities are 100% for first, 75% for second, 50% for subsequent) = 5500, and cost reduction is 40%, and 5500*(1-0.4)=3300.



Of course, this is possibly more a lesson in not allowing continuous items of instantaneous spells (Continuous CMW that will fully heal any truenamer with truespeak ranks that touches or holds it is only 600 GP) more than anything, but other sillies like use activated true strike (2000, or 1400 with cost reduction) or at-will high-CL improvisation (140,000 for a +100 on your next two attack rolls, skill checks, or ability checks (Initiative, anyone?) or put it use-activated on your weapon for much attack bonus) or of course use-activated Guidance of the Avatar for +20 to all skill checks at just 18,000 GP. I mean, even just putting use-activated shocking grasp on your weapon is always going to be cheaper than the actual shocking quality, and you can increase the spell level at a fair rate. If you have a few million GP spare, you can always go the whole hog and invest in a use-activated true resurrection - great against undead!

[Zancloufer]

Staff of Instant Death
This simple quarterstaff has a metallic object, a little like a funnel or cup, jammed onto the end. From the cup, a metal plate - part of the same item - extends down the quarterstaff, and responds to the touch of a certain kind of user, spitting four kinds of death from the funnel when touched.

A staff of instant death is a quarterstaff and is not itself magical. However, a creature who touches the cup or the metal plate activate the cup on the end if it meets the requirements - a staff of instant death only responds to a creature of a certain class or alignment, and there is also a skill which the user must have at least one rank in to activate the staff (these requirements are set by the creator). While the staff is active, it spits out a visibly energetic cone 15 feet out from the cup, and any creature even momentarily caught in this cone repeatedly takes 1d4 points of each of fire, cold, acid and electricity damage, continually and repeatedly, for as long as they are in the area - if a creature is in the area, it is taking damage.
Faint evocation, CL 1st, Craft Wondrous Item, Energy Substitution, burning hands; Price 3300 GP; Weight 5 lb.

Price calculation: 2000 for first burning hands, 1500 for 2nd, 1000 for third, 1000 for fourth (Continuous =2000*CL*Spell level = 2000, multiple similar abilities are 100% for first, 75% for second, 50% for subsequent) = 5500, and cost reduction is 40%, and 5500*(1-0.4)=3300.



Of course, this is possibly more a lesson in not allowing continuous items of instantaneous spells (Continuous CMW that will fully heal any truenamer with truespeak ranks that touches or holds it is only 600 GP) more than anything, but other sillies like use activated true strike (2000, or 1400 with cost reduction) or at-will high-CL improvisation (140,000 for a +100 on your next two attack rolls, skill checks, or ability checks (Initiative, anyone?) or put it use-activated on your weapon for much attack bonus) or of course use-activated Guidance of the Avatar for +20 to all skill checks at just 18,000 GP. I mean, even just putting use-activated shocking grasp on your weapon is always going to be cheaper than the actual shocking quality, and you can increase the spell level at a fair rate. If you have a few million GP spare, you can always go the whole hog and invest in a use-activated true resurrection - great against undead!

To be fair said item wouldn't be build-able until at least level 3, requires you to be in melee combat constantly to use it, and with 1d4x4 damage (With a DC ~14 Save for half) and a CL of 1 it's pretty easy to resist. I mean a level 3 Fighter with a greatsword and 18 strength does 2d6+6 damage (Average 12). Any sort of DR, SR or harness makes the staff practically useless.

EDIT: You need to take a meta-magic feats AND an item creation feat to make said staff. Also due to pre-requs they wouldn't be takeable until level 3 and 5 (or 6). 1d4x4 (Ref save half) damage at level 5-6 is kind of a joke.

On the CLW at will. You are trading a standard action to heal 2-9 HP on touch. In combat it is absolutely USELESS. Also it doesn't come around till level 3, and 2k EXP is only the base GP cost for the enchantment. You still need to spend another 150 GP+ for the item that holds said enchantment (Has to be of cost/quality of at least masterwork to enchant). Yeah out of combat healing at-will seems nice, but at level 3 everyone has something like 10-40 HP, which will drop in as few as 1-4 hits. Not to mention your casters don't have that many spells. It is far from game breaking for the frontliners to have full HP each encounter.

[Beheld]

Staff of Instant Death
This simple quarterstaff has a metallic object, a little like a funnel or cup, jammed onto the end. From the cup, a metal plate - part of the same item - extends down the quarterstaff, and responds to the touch of a certain kind of user, spitting four kinds of death from the funnel when touched.

A staff of instant death is a quarterstaff and is not itself magical. However, a creature who touches the cup or the metal plate activate the cup on the end if it meets the requirements - a staff of instant death only responds to a creature of a certain class or alignment, and there is also a skill which the user must have at least one rank in to activate the staff (these requirements are set by the creator). While the staff is active, it spits out a visibly energetic cone 15 feet out from the cup, and any creature even momentarily caught in this cone repeatedly takes 1d4 points of each of fire, cold, acid and electricity damage, continually and repeatedly, for as long as they are in the area - if a creature is in the area, it is taking damage.
Faint evocation, CL 1st, Craft Wondrous Item, Energy Substitution, burning hands; Price 3300 GP; Weight 5 lb.

Price calculation: 2000 for first burning hands, 1500 for 2nd, 1000 for third, 1000 for fourth (Continuous =2000*CL*Spell level = 2000, multiple similar abilities are 100% for first, 75% for second, 50% for subsequent) = 5500, and cost reduction is 40%, and 5500*(1-0.4)=3300.



Of course, this is possibly more a lesson in not allowing continuous items of instantaneous spells (Continuous CMW that will fully heal any truenamer with truespeak ranks that touches or holds it is only 600 GP) more than anything, but other sillies like use activated true strike (2000, or 1400 with cost reduction) or at-will high-CL improvisation (140,000 for a +100 on your next two attack rolls, skill checks, or ability checks (Initiative, anyone?) or put it use-activated on your weapon for much attack bonus) or of course use-activated Guidance of the Avatar for +20 to all skill checks at just 18,000 GP. I mean, even just putting use-activated shocking grasp on your weapon is always going to be cheaper than the actual shocking quality, and you can increase the spell level at a fair rate. If you have a few million GP spare, you can always go the whole hog and invest in a use-activated true resurrection - great against undead!

Also a lesson in not using the stupid rules that make your items cost less if enemies can't use them. Because those are dumb.

Also a lesson in poor names, since the staff of instant death is going to not kill most things by the level you can afford it.

[Jormengand]

Continuous doesn't mean 1/round, though. It means continuous. From the moment you are in the area to the moment you leave it or die you are taking 4d4 damage. You step into the field. You take 4d4 damage. You survived? Great, take another 4d4. You're bleeding out? Nice, take another 4d4. You're dead? Stop taking it, you're not a creature. That's why it's the staff of instant death.

[Zancloufer]

Continuous doesn't mean 1/round, though. It means continuous. From the moment you are in the area to the moment you leave it or die you are taking 4d4 damage. You step into the field. You take 4d4 damage. You survived? Great, take another 4d4. You're bleeding out? Nice, take another 4d4. You're dead? Stop taking it, you're not a creature. That's why it's the staff of instant death.

It is actually User activated (at will) OR continuous. IIRC continuous only applies to spells with a duration. Anything with a duration of "Instant" would probably be at will. Which is a standard action to activate. Otherwise someone would just make a Staff of Continuous Fireball or something, turn it on, throw it into a pit and instantly blow a hole through the entire planet.

Also it's 1d4x4, not 4d4. Anything with hardness 4+ or DR 4+/element would literally take 0 damage. Also SR of 21+ would make you immune to the item.

[Jormengand]

It is actually User activated (at will) OR continuous. IIRC continuous only applies to spells with a duration.
No, all "Use activated or continuous" means is that both of those cost 2000*blah. Also, use activated does not mean the same thing as at will. There is no text restricting continuous to noninstantaneous spells.


Also it's 1d4x4, not 4d4. Anything with hardness 4+ or DR 4+/element would literally take 0 damage. Also SR of 21+ would make you immune to the item.

No, it's 4d4 because it's 4 separate burning hands spells (4d4 is the notation for "Roll four d4s" and 1d4*4 is the notation for "Roll a single d4, and multiply the result by 4"). DR is ineffective against spells. A staff of instant death with envelop the wall would cost more, but it could be developed to beat SR (you have that much money by the time you're facing something with that much SR).

[Troacctid]

Continuous damage is a thing in the rules, and it is normally dealt on a per-round basis. (Acid Arrow deals continuous damage.) Why would continuous Burning Hands be different?

[Jormengand]

Continuous damage is a thing in the rules, and it is normally dealt on a per-round basis. (Acid Arrow deals continuous damage.) Why would continuous Burning Hands be different?

The word "Continuous" isn't used anywhere in the text because the damage isn't continuous, it's discrete.

[Troacctid]

The word "Continuous" isn't used anywhere in the text because the damage isn't continuous, it's discrete.

No, it's definitely a rules term. It modifies Concentration DCs. Acid Arrow is given as an example of continuous damage in the Concentration skill description.

[AvatarVecna]

No, it's 4d4 because it's 4 separate burning hands spells (4d4 is the notation for "Roll four d4s" and 1d4*4 is the notation for "Roll a single d4, and multiply the result by 4"). DR is ineffective against spells. A staff of instant death with envelop the wall would cost more, but it could be developed to beat SR (you have that much money by the time you're facing something with that much SR).

Energy Resistance would apply, though, and would apply to each d4 separately, rather than the total. Also, it can be argued that the cost multiplier for Continuous items not having an entry for instantaneous duration spells means that the cost multiplier is a null value (which, as has come up many times before in TO discussions, is not the same as a value of zero). Regardless of whether RAW allows you to make continuous items of instantaneous spells, the fact remains that there are no rules actually governing what happens when you do so (that is to say, there's no rules indicating whether your interpretation of the rules is correct or incorrect or partially correct); the lack of any existing rules does not mean we can just make up whatever we want and claim it's RAW, it means there's a bug in the system where there's a situation that could come up where there are no rules defining what happens.


Continuous damage is a thing in the rules, and it is normally dealt on a per-round basis. (Acid Arrow deals continuous damage.) Why would continuous Burning Hands be different?

Because then Jormengand can't claim to have found a super-cheesy hack of the system.

[Jormengand]

No, it's definitely a rules term. It modifies Concentration DCs. Acid Arrow is given as an example of continuous damage in the Concentration skill description.

Irrespective, that doesn't mean continuous damage is 1/round. In fact it's not even the continuousness of the damage that is in question so much as of the spell.

Of course, the main problem is that what all of these things mean is so badly defined that you can end up having massive arguments where no-one is necessarily right.


Energy Resistance would apply, though, and would apply to each d4 separately, rather than the total.
Energy resist is per round. I know, it surprised me too.

Also, it can be argued that the cost multiplier for Continuous items not having an entry for instantaneous duration spells
It has an entry for spells. This doesn't disinclude instantaneous spells just because you say so...

means that the cost multiplier is a null value (which, as has come up many times before in TO discussions, is not the same as a value of zero). Regardless of whether RAW allows you to make continuous items of instantaneous spells, the fact remains that there are no rules actually governing what happens when you do so (that is to say, there's no rules indicating whether your interpretation of the rules is correct or incorrect or partially correct); the lack of any existing rules does not mean we can just make up whatever we want and claim it's RAW, it means there's a bug in the system where there's a situation that could come up where there are no rules defining what happens.
...meaning that much of this is nonsense.

[Troacctid]

Irrespective, that doesn't mean continuous damage is 1/round. In fact it's not even the continuousness of the damage that is in question so much as of the spell.

The closest reading of the spell would be that it deals the damage once, as you cast it. There's no provision in the spell for repeating the damage if the duration is extended somehow. (I believe Energy Wall was called out in the Dysfunctional Rules Thread for similar reasons.)

[AvatarVecna]

Energy resist is per round. I know, it surprised me too.

You're right, that is surprising.


It has an entry for spells. This doesn't disinclude instantaneous spells just because you say so...

It also doesn't mean you get to redefine how Continuous damage works.


...meaning that much of this is nonsense.

Only the first part is nonsense if you assume instantaneous spells are fair game. That doesn't change the fact that you don't get to make up rules for how something works just because there's no existing rules for how it works. Either continuous damage works as Acid Arrow does (since that's the only place continuous damage is even vaguely defined anywhere in the rules), or (if you don't think Acid Arrow counts) it doesn't work at all, because there's no rules defining what happens when damage is continuous. D&D 3.5 is strict construction, especially when you approach it from the RAW perspective: to do a thing, it has to be explicitly legal by the rules; you can't just say "it doesn't say I can't" and then start making up rules for how it works since the system doesn't have rules for it.

Your options are use the rules as they're written and nothing else, or interpret the rules to somehow make sense; if you're following the former, Continuous damage either works as Acid Arrow does or doesn't work at all (depending on whether you think Acid Arrow counts as continuous damage); if you're following the latter, you don't get to deal continuous damage like that, because any reasonable interpretation of the rules would say you don't instantly kill somebody with such a cheap item.

Final point: even if we're wrong about this, and it turns out that you're right about this, that just means that a Belt of Immortality (Continuous "Cure Light Wounds") also exists, and you can't ever kill a person who wears one with HP damage.

[Beheld]

Energy resist is per round. I know, it surprised me too.


The subject gains energy resistance 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points.


resistance to energy: A creature with resistance to an energy type ignores a certain amount of damage dealt by that energy type each time it is dealt. For instance, a creature with fire resistance 10 ignores the first 10 points of fire damage dealt by each attack.


RESISTANCE TO ENERGY
A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type (such as cold, electricity, or fire) each round, but it does not have total immunity.
Each resistance ability is defined by what energy type it resists and how many points of damage are resisted. For example, a janni has resistance to fire 10. A janni can ignore the first 10 points of fire damage it takes each attack. It doesn’t matter whether the damage has a mundane or magical source.


Resistance to Energy (Ex): A creature with this special quality ignores some damage of the indicated type each time it takes damage of that kind (commonly acid, cold, fire, or electricity). The
entry indicates the amount and type of damage ignored. For example, a lillend has resistance to fire 10, so it ignores the first 10 points of fire damage dealt to it anytime it takes fire damage.

What's your source? Presumably the immediately contradicted DMG line?

Too bad the MM is the primary source for monster abilities and the PHB is the primary source for spells. and the DMG is the primary source for items, so I guess items of resist energy suck if you choose not to read the next sentence.

[AvatarVecna]

What's your source? Presumably the immediately contradicted DMG line?

Ah, I see it now. Yeah, that's less surprising than what was originally claimed.

[Beheld]

Ah, I see it now. Yeah, that's less surprising than what was originally claimed.

The obvious answer is that one guy writing one of the books accidentally put the wrong thing in one part of the entry.

But by Primary Source rules anyway, it doesn't effect spells or monsters. So if you really want to nerf items you can totally ignore the weight of the evidence and call it RAW, but I don't know why you would want to.

[Jormengand]

Final point: even if we're wrong about this, and it turns out that you're right about this, that just means that a Belt of Immortality (Continuous "Cure Light Wounds") also exists, and you can't ever kill a person who wears one with HP damage.

Yes, I know. The point is that the SoID (And, yes, the BoI, which is another item I pointed out only with CMiW instead of CLW) is just one of many items that shows how weird the rules on custom items are if you're treating them as hard and fast rules. Others I pointed out included use-activated true strike/improvisation.

The thing with the whole "Continuous" thing is that it's not continuous damage, it's a continuous spell (the same way that a spell level, a caster level and an effective character level are all different things even though they're all levels). Assuming that energy wall actually works the way it's meant to - which is, yes, a dangerous assumption, but the fact that something deals damage without specifying when or how often would imply that it did damage all the time (much like giving a +4 enhancement bonus to charisma without specifying how often would imply that it gave that bonus all the time, which is the reading of pretty much every spell with a duration that you have to take if you want them to make sense) - means that the SoID really will kill someone if it's swung at them, and the BoI really will protect you (although it's not clear which wins out - do they go on a stack with the burning hands resolving, then a CLW, then an acidic hands, then another CLW? Or do all four hands resolve, then a CLW, then four hands? Or do both of them put infinite actions on, perfectly countering each other?) against all damage that isn't at least (HP+10).

But hey, maybe it doesn't work! I don't really care. I posted it because someone asked what it did. I didn't expect to be accused of trying to "Claim to have found a super-cheesy hack of the system" as though that in any way constituted an argument or a comment.


What's your source? Presumably the immediately contradicted DMG line?

Okay, yeah, that's my fault for expecting WotC to understand the rules that they freaking wrote. Fine, if you have meaningful resistance to all nonsonic energies, you're fine.

[Barstro]

As said, you need to compare priced to other items. That argument exists because, for the sake of parity, this item should have the same value as what it would otherwise be replacing.

I have a feeling that what this is actually replacing is a Cleric. So, what is it worth for a party to not need to have a dedicated healer? I've had DMs pretty much just allow the party to heal up after a night's rest so we didn't have to do the "difficult" bookkeeping.

Since the item is really just to take care of things outside of combat and outside of non-combat encounters too, I'd probably allow a cheap price and just arbitrarily take away treasure items as I saw fit. Except for the fact that I think the bookkeeping is important and trade-offs must have costs.

I probably wouldn't allow it in my campaign at any price. But, if I were to allow such an item, I don't think cost would be as much of a factor as how I felt it fit in the campaign.

[Nibbens]

Besides the fact a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750) will last most camapaigns. And when it doesn't, a second will and still be cheaper.

Eh? My PCs have no healer, and have burned through a whole wand of Cure Light, bought their second wand of Cure Light and are halfway through it, found a Wand of cure Moderate with 1/2 charges burned through it - and bought a second cure moderate and are only level 10. We started at level 1. lol.

Back to OP: Infinite use items like that could break WLB into pieces, which is a main factor of the way balance (whatever semblance of balance there is) is maintained in D&D 3.X. You could be looking at massive balance issues in the mid to late game with characters have way more wealth than you intended. However, I understand that everyone's games are different and therefore balancing could be different for you. This is just my experience. lol.

[AvatarVecna]

But hey, maybe it doesn't work! I don't really care. I posted it because someone asked what it did. I didn't expect to be accused of trying to "Claim to have found a super-cheesy hack of the system" as though that in any way constituted an argument or a comment.

Maybe it's just me, but your arguments on the Staff were coming across less as "hey, look at this stupid thing that happens if you assume the rules are absolute" and more as "look at this super-powerful thing you can do that's totally RAW legal", and one of those demanded a stronger response than the other. For what it's worth, I'm sorry about being so hostile about it; it just seemed like a really stupid reading to be holding up as pure RAW.

[Beheld]

I don't know why Wands of Cure Light exist in the post SpC/Complete Divine world.

Lesser Vigor does the same thing but better, and best of all, (for players and DMs) you don't have to roll! You totally just get to mark off X charges for Y healing and move on, without having your level 10-12 characters roll like 50d8s across the four of you and waste a bunch of time.

[Jormengand]

Maybe it's just me, but your arguments on the Staff were coming across less as "hey, look at this stupid thing that happens if you assume the rules are absolute" and more as "look at this super-powerful thing you can do that's totally RAW legal", and one of those demanded a stronger response than the other.

Given the context in which the SoID was mentioned:


Honestly, I don't mind my party having infinite out-of-combat healing in less gritty games anyway a lot of the time, but the custom item rules - which also brought us the aptly-named Staff of Instant Death (Not that aptly named, given that the staff itself was mundane and just served as a pointing rod for the wondrous item stuck on the end of it that constantly spewed infinite dice of flaming freezing electric acidic death at anything you pointed it at) - are not the way to price it.

One would have thought that my intent was fairly obvious.


For what it's worth, I'm sorry about being so hostile about it; it just seemed like a really stupid reading to be holding up as pure RAW.

Don't worry. I still love ya really.

[Troacctid]

Another problem with the Staff of Instant Death is that Burning Hands is a burst, not an emanation, so it doesn't continue to emanate from its point of origin after you initially cast it. Since that's a function of its area, not its duration, making it continuous shouldn't change that.

[Jormengand]

Another problem with the Staff of Instant Death is that Burning Hands is a burst, not an emanation, so it doesn't continue to emanate from its point of origin after you initially cast it. Since that's a function of its area, not its duration, making it continuous shouldn't change that.

Actually, all it says on bursts is:


A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation therefore continues to emanate out... but, uhm, we're not sure why that's different from a burst, because (not wishing to get into the sequester debate, and assuming that "Affects" means "Damages" for burning hands' purposes) it damages everything in the area, which is 15 feet. It doesn't at any point seem to stop doing so. Web is a spread (which is just a burst that can turn corners) but it doesn't stop working after it's started. Incendiary Cloud also seems to think it's a spread but I'm not quite sure whether or not it's a bona fide spread. Entangle is a spread. Yadda yadda.

EDIT: Say what you like about the SoID, but if nothing else it's good for highlighting random bits of the 3.5 rules that make no sense.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't know why Wands of Cure Light exist in the post SpC/Complete Divine world.

Lesser Vigor does the same thing but better, and best of all, (for players and DMs) you don't have to roll! You totally just get to mark off X charges for Y healing and move on, without having your level 10-12 characters roll like 50d8s across the four of you and waste a bunch of time.

Some DMs are really anal about custom items, even if it's just wands that don't have an existing entry in a book. I've had a DM ban non-SRD spells in items before. Even then, CLW gives all the healing at once, which might be important for in-combat healing (granted, such a small amount of in-combat healing is only vaguely relevant in the first couple levels, and completely irrelevant later on, but it's worth mentioning). Also (although even my IRL DMs have never been this sadistic enough to build a character that could pull this off), Lesser Vigor and its bigger brothers having a duration means they can be dispelled by a dedicated dispelling build.


Given the context in which the SoID was mentioned:



One would have thought that my intent was fairly obvious.

Ah okay, I just didn't read everything. Yeah, that's definitely on me, sorry.

[Troacctid]

An emanation therefore continues to emanate out... but, uhm, we're not sure why that's different from a burst, because (not wishing to get into the sequester debate, and assuming that "Affects" means "Damages" for burning hands' purposes) it damages everything in the area, which is 15 feet. It doesn't at any point seem to stop doing so.
The text only mentions one instance of damage-dealing, so it only deals damage once. This isn't really a corner case or a strange occurrence—there are a fair share of spells that deal damage and have non-instantaneous durations, like Ice Storm. If your interpretation were correct, they would deal infinite damage too.


EDIT: Say what you like about the SoID, but if nothing else it's good for highlighting random bits of the 3.5 rules that make no sense.
Not really, since it's not an item that actually exists in the rules, and the rules don't even really support its existence.


Also (although even my IRL DMs have never been this sadistic enough to build a character that could pull this off), Lesser Vigor and its bigger brothers having a duration means they can be dispelled by a dedicated dispelling build.
If you want to spend a 3rd level spell and a standard action to deal me 10 damage, I think I'm okay with that.

[Beheld]

Some DMs are really anal about custom items, even if it's just wands that don't have an existing entry in a book. I've had a DM ban non-SRD spells in items before. Even then, CLW gives all the healing at once, which might be important for in-combat healing (granted, such a small amount of in-combat healing is only vaguely relevant in the first couple levels, and completely irrelevant later on, but it's worth mentioning). Also (although even my IRL DMs have never been this sadistic enough to build a character that could pull this off), Lesser Vigor and its bigger brothers having a duration means they can be dispelled by a dedicated dispelling build.

Yeah, I repeat what I said, I'm not sure why wands of Cure Light Wounds exist. 1) As I said, it is better for the DM to too to not have to account numbers by rolling a bunch of dice. I mean I guess people can choose to be stupid and punish themselves if they want, but if your party is sitting around using wands post battle, why on earth do you want to roll dice for that?
2) If you use a Cure Light Wounds wand in combat then you are choosing to waste your time and actions doing nothing instead of doing anything productive at all. Please never do this ever.
3) If someone is in a location to cast dispel on you, you probably shouldn't be using Wands of Lesser Vigor. Not because they can waste 15gp or whatever a charge costs by dispelling the spell, but because they could waste 75gp and maybe knock someone out by casting Fireball.

[AvatarVecna]

If you want to spend a 3rd level spell and a standard action to deal me 10 damage, I think I'm okay with that.

That's what I mean by "make it work"; the basic way of dispelling isn't gonna be very effective unless you figure out a way to really cheese it out. Well, other than catching them with a Continuous Dispel Magic, of course...

[Platymus Pus]

Time Stops fluff

Considering it stopped being a time stop ages ago...

[Jormengand]

The text only mentions one instance of damage-dealing, so it only deals damage once.
So I guess the +4 bonus to CHA from eagle's splendour only affects you once, not for the entire duration of the spell? Either anything that isn't specified to happen for the entire duration only happens instantaneously, or it happens for all of the spell's effect. Unless you can come up with a weird third option.

This isn't really a corner case or a strange occurrence—there are a fair share of spells that deal damage and have non-instantaneous durations, like Ice Storm. If your interpretation were correct, they would deal infinite damage too.

Yeah, they probably do. Ice Storm is a bit ambiguous because it says "For 1 full round, dealing [damage]" which might mean that the damage is only dealt once over that full round. Like I said, weird things in the rules that don't really work.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, I repeat what I said, I'm not sure why wands of Cure Light Wounds exist.
Same reason the Apparatus of Kwalish exists.

[Beheld]

Same reason the Apparatus of Kwalish exists.

Okay fine, I'm not sure why they exist in peoples games, since in those people's games there is an obviously better way to do the same thing that is better for everyone involved.

[Zancloufer]

So I guess the +4 bonus to CHA from eagle's splendour only affects you once, not for the entire duration of the spell? Either anything that isn't specified to happen for the entire duration only happens instantaneously, or it happens for all of the spell's effect. Unless you can come up with a weird third option.


No:


Duration

A spell’s Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.

Timed Durations

Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell’s duration is variable the duration is rolled secretly (the caster doesn’t know how long the spell will last).

Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.


Eagle's Splendor (and most buffs) have an actual duration, so they last the entirety of the duration. If you increase the duration to permanent (continuous) it lasts. Also the text from extent and persist spell outright state that spells with an instantaneous duration CANNOT me extended/persisted. By such logic you can't give them a continuous duration as they have NO DURATION to extend.

Also if we want to be REALLY RAW nitpicky it says "User activated OR Continuous". By our terrible RAW logic that means you can't have a spell you turn on and then fires forever. It either fires once per standard action, or it's just a never ending gout of flame and death that can't be turned off or on once it's created. Pretty sure someone would have ANNIHILATED the plane by now if you could make magic items like that. . .

[Jormengand]

It either fires once per standard action, or it's just a never ending gout of flame and death that can't be turned off or on once it's created.

That's what the stipulation that it only functions in the hands of a truenamer with truespeak ranks/true neutral character with craft ranks/whatever is for. I mean apart from to reduce the cost.


Pretty sure someone would have ANNIHILATED the plane by now if you could make magic items like that. . .

Ehh, that's not really hard. It's not exactly difficult to drop a spell level essentially-infinite utterance into an energy transformation field with your choice of nasty spell in it, just as an example.

[ericgrau]

I have never seen that as a problem. The local clinic can heal basic injuries for next to nothing (they have to pay guards' and operators' wages and eventually recover the cost of the item) and the community as a whole is better off. The guard got seriously cut stopping a bar fight? He can be back on the job latter that night. Kid falls down the well and badly hurts his leg? He can be back on the farm tomorrow. Instead of looking at it as destroying a world, it is better to know it exists and build the world with that in mind.

Nobody means millions of heals wrecks the world in the sense of death and destruction. Of course not. It wrecks the world in the sense that giving everyone cars wrecks the world. It is suddenly a different world.

The seriousness of injury to the common man is a major part of the fantasy world. Remove it and wartime casualties dramatically decrease. Strategies change dramatically. Random attacks from the forest are far less severe as long as you can keep rotating soldiers. The seriousness of many plotlines that once had thousands hurt are gone. Many strategies of mass conflict are gone. One of the temple's biggest sources of income and community good will is gone as it is common and costs next to nothing.

Sure, it doesn't hurt hack and slash, but if you've gone down that hole where you kill baddies, rinse and repeat while ignoring the nitty gritty details of how the world operates, you have already lost a major dimension that an in person rpg has over a video game and you're really missing out. It won't get any worse if you continue to ignore the world with unlimited healing, or with this or that, but it could be a lot better.

Plus it's really easy to prevent while still giving adventurers all the healing they'll ever need. The simplest way is to do nothing; wands are already cheap enough to be virtually unlimited for adventurers.

[vasilidor]

in theory, yes it is absolutely possible to do this by RAW. In practice the vast majority of DMs will say no. the best thing to do is to ask the DM of whatever game your playing if they will allow for custom items and keep them in on the loop of whatever you build.

[Crake]

That's what I mean by "make it work"; the basic way of dispelling isn't gonna be very effective unless you figure out a way to really cheese it out. Well, other than catching them with a Continuous Dispel Magic, of course...

Well, now, that might not be so effective against one person, but a chained dispel magic with a buffed caster level/bonuses to dispel checks, along with arcane mastery to take 10 on the dispel check, you could wipe the whole party of buffs with a 6th level spell without even rolling a dice. Grab arcane thesis and practical metamagic and you can have it done with 4th level spells as early as 7th level.