Undead template for LA+0

[SangoProduction]

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dark_Minded_(3.5e_Subtype)#Revenant

This is homebrew, yes. That's kinda the basis of the campaign, but undead immunities are kinda a huge deal, and even the necropolitan forced you to lose a level (and in my game, since it's just leveling up per adventure, rather than individual xp, that's all the same). They do gain the Dark Minded subtype (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dark_Minded_(3.5e_Subtype)#Dark_Minded_.28Subtype. 29), which does remove their mind immunity trait, but lets it do the free age benefit thing (which my player said he wouldn't do so not a concern)

He, however, still wants a +0 LA undead race rather than just fluffing himself as undead. I offered to expand the abilities of the template a bit, in exchange for it costing a level, but he still just wanted an LA +0.

How many points of the 30 point buy would that take, in your opinion?

He's offering to allow himself to be rebuked and destroyed by clerics, unlike what the template says, but...that's kinda a "no save and die/suck" thing if I roll decently with a cleric on the other side, which I don't really like, and otherwise doesn't really do anything.

[Troacctid]

Well, under E6 rules, +1 LA takes 7 points off of your point buy. So I could see allowing Necropolitan at 23 points.

[Necroticplague]

Eh. I think the immunities to some not particularly common attack forms are balanced by fragility (no con mod, no 10-point death buffer).

[Zanos]

Eh. I think the immunities to some not particularly common attack forms are balanced by fragility (no con mod, no 10-point death buffer).
I agree. Between stuff that specifically affects undead and the loss of the mind-affecting immunity, I don't think the template is particularly OP.

[Beheld]

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dark_Minded_(3.5e_Subtype)#Revenant

This is homebrew, yes. That's kinda the basis of the campaign, but undead immunities are kinda a huge deal, and even the necropolitan forced you to lose a level (and in my game, since it's just leveling up per adventure, rather than individual xp, that's all the same). They do gain the Dark Minded subtype (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dark_Minded_(3.5e_Subtype)#Dark_Minded_.28Subtype. 29), which does remove their mind immunity trait, but lets it do the free age benefit thing (which my player said he wouldn't do so not a concern)

He, however, still wants a +0 LA undead race rather than just fluffing himself as undead. I offered to expand the abilities of the template a bit, in exchange for it costing a level, but he still just wanted an LA +0.

How many points of the 30 point buy would that take, in your opinion?

He's offering to allow himself to be rebuked and destroyed by clerics, unlike what the template says, but...that's kinda a "no save and die/suck" thing if I roll decently with a cleric on the other side, which I don't really like, and otherwise doesn't really do anything.

1) If you look at the class, it's supposed to be granted for people who died unfortunately and well. It's something you get in game if the DM feels you deserve it, not something you get at character creation. So no, the player isn't supposed to start with 8 Con then declare themself a Revenant as a cheap path to higher attributes than everyone else. If you are using 3.5 PB, I would just take away 6-10 points for the 14-16 Con I would expect them to have, and that would be it.

2) increased fragility and lower Fort Save against object targets and subject to undead effect, versus immunity to fort saves that don't affect, objects, ability damage and drain, and a really easy to bypass crit immunity... Meh, it's not a straight even trade, but it's not worth LA. So aside from using it to get higher other stats, it seems fine.

[ericgrau]

That plus being forced to effectively have a con of 10 hurts. Most people wouldn't choose that even if low on points to spend. Even if you dumped con to 8 to give yourself more points for other stats it's hard to deal with, though yeah you probably should take away some of the point buy points that would have gone to con.

[Zanos]

1) If you look at the class, it's supposed to be granted for people who died unfortunately and well. It's something you get in game if the DM feels you deserve it, not something you get at character creation. So no, the player isn't supposed to start with 8 Con then declare themself a Revenant as a cheap path to higher attributes than everyone else. If you are using 3.5 PB, I would just take away 6-10 points for the 14-16 Con I would expect them to have, and that would be it.
Depends on the class. If they were making a frontline character, they're going to end up with a lot less HP due to not having a Con score. An increase in hit die is only +1 hp per level for each step. Not being able to get enhancement + inherent bonuses to con later will also make your HP garbage compared to other options.

At the very most, you could assume they bought 10 con.

[Troacctid]

If you're a Wizard, changing your hit dice to d12s is the same, on average, as having 18 Con. Most Wizards only point-buy into the 14–16 range, so the template would almost always result in a higher HP total.

[Beheld]

Depends on the class. If they were making a frontline character, they're going to end up with a lot less HP due to not having a Con score. An increase in hit die is only +1 hp per level for each step. Not being able to get enhancement + inherent bonuses to con later will also make your HP garbage compared to other options.

At the very most, you could assume they bought 10 con.

Like I said, the 14-16 Con they would have had otherwise. If a Wizard or Druid is 30 PB, they almost certainly have 16 Con, if a Cleric/Rogue/Noncaster brute type class that needs other stats, then probably just the 6 from a 14 PB, because they usually spread their points around.

[GreyBlack]

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dark_Minded_(3.5e_Subtype)#Revenant

This is homebrew, yes. That's kinda the basis of the campaign, but undead immunities are kinda a huge deal, and even the necropolitan forced you to lose a level (and in my game, since it's just leveling up per adventure, rather than individual xp, that's all the same). They do gain the Dark Minded subtype (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dark_Minded_(3.5e_Subtype)#Dark_Minded_.28Subtype. 29), which does remove their mind immunity trait, but lets it do the free age benefit thing (which my player said he wouldn't do so not a concern)

He, however, still wants a +0 LA undead race rather than just fluffing himself as undead. I offered to expand the abilities of the template a bit, in exchange for it costing a level, but he still just wanted an LA +0.

How many points of the 30 point buy would that take, in your opinion?

He's offering to allow himself to be rebuked and destroyed by clerics, unlike what the template says, but...that's kinda a "no save and die/suck" thing if I roll decently with a cleric on the other side, which I don't really like, and otherwise doesn't really do anything.

No.

Tell me, why doesn't he want to use necropolitan? This all seems very fishy to my DM side, and I'm concerned as to why he wouldn't want to bite the bullet. Undead immunities are hugely powerful, so he should take some sort of penalty. If he doesn't want to lose the level, maybe the loss of starting points would work (like others are saying, 7-10 points would work), but ask him why he wants that particular homebrew.

[LordOfCain]

What about the Ghostwalk ghost template?

[Beheld]

No.

Tell me, why doesn't he want to use necropolitan? This all seems very fishy to my DM side, and I'm concerned as to why he wouldn't want to bite the bullet. Undead immunities are hugely powerful, so he should take some sort of penalty. If he doesn't want to lose the level, maybe the loss of starting points would work (like others are saying, 7-10 points would work), but ask him why he wants that particular homebrew.

Because it has much better flavor than Necropolitan? Because he doesn't want to pay a level to play undead? Because that homebrew is actually less powerful than a Necropolitan who gains levels right back and has more immunities?

[Yael]

What about the Forsaken template from WoWRPG? I know it's third party, but it's a +0 LA undead template.

[Beheld]

What about the Forsaken template from WoWRPG? I know it's third party, but it's a +0 LA undead template.

How would a more powerful 0 LA undead template for a completely different game system help him with the problem that he thinks the template is too strong?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would do a reasonable allowance for this under the balance point of being compared to warforged.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly, the only thing that really worries me is the auto-healing, especially the auto-resurrection. Otherwise, you're getting what,

6.5 HP/level (About the same as a d8 HD with 14 con-- in other words, decent but not spectacular health), but without the dying buffer-- aright. Can be nice, can be crap, depending on your class. Good for casters, bad for melee.
Immune to fear, fatigue, exhaustion, nonlethal, critical hits, ability and energy drain, and a bunch of Fort save effects. Very nice to be sure, probably a bit better than Living Construct.
Vulnerable to rebuking.

It's good, but not outrageous. I wouldn't rate it any higher than a Warforged or Human. Now, it IS a big chunk of immunities and-- potentially-- extra health to drop on top of an existing race, so I'd treat it like the Dragonborn "template"-- it theoretically applies to any race, but actually replaces just about all the racial traits but size. Do that, drop the auto-heal, and I think you're good. If you don't want to go the "it's basically your race" route, then give him both the Dark Minded and Unliving subtypes-- that removes just about all the major immunities, leaving a much more even bag of strengths and weaknesses to slap on as a template.

[GreyBlack]

Because it has much better flavor than Necropolitan? Because he doesn't want to pay a level to play undead? Because that homebrew is actually less powerful than a Necropolitan who gains levels right back and has more immunities?

I dunno. Flavor can be modified and changed to taste. I'm personally a huge fan of playing with fluff and changing it to meet certain character needs. Hell, I once had a player who underwent the Necropolitan transformation unwillingly, and the character was so compelling that I went with it.

Other points stand, though. My entire point was that the undead type is extremely powerful and should come with a level trade somehow.

[ericgrau]

I missed that the HD changed to d12s, that does offeset the hp issue.

You could perhaps give a con, int, cha and action penalty similar to a zombie. The thing with an action penalty is that it hurts non-casters more than casters, especially arcane casters who don't melee, who can still manage pretty well with a standard action. Though mental penalties hurt them.

Something like this could work:
Half-Zombie

-2 con (not -), -4 int, -4 cha
HD unchanged. In spite of con destroyed at 0 hp, healed with negative energy, harmed with positive, etc.
Undead traits.
Zombie Slowness: Take only a move or a standard action each round. You may still move up to your speed (not twice your speed) and attack in the same round with a charge.
Turn resistance +2
Spells that raise the living don't work. Must be raised with an animate dead using onyxes worth 250 gp per HD rather than 25 gp. The usual level or con loss occurs, and con loss occurs instead of racial HD loss. If con reaches zero by this means the character becomes a full zombie when animated. If the body is not fully intact it must first be restored before being raised for example with a limited wish, wish or miracle.
Level Adjustment: +0

[Beheld]

I missed that the HD changed to d12s, that does offeset the hp issue.

You could perhaps give a con, int, cha and action penalty similar to a zombie. The thing with an action penalty is that it hurts non-casters more than casters, especially arcane casters, who can still manage pretty well with a standard action. Though mental penalties hurt them.

Something like this could work:
Half-Zombie

-2 con (not -), -4 int, -4 cha
HD unchanged. In spite of con destroyed at 0 hp, healed with negative energy, harmed with positive, etc.
Undead traits.
Zombie Slowness: Take only a move or a standard action each round. You may still move up to your speed (not twice your speed) and attack in the same round with a charge.
Turn resistance +2
Spells that raise the living don't work. Must be raised with an animate dead using onyxes worth 250 gp per HD rather than 25 gp. The usual level or con loss occurs, and con loss occurs instead of racial HD loss. If con reaches zero by this means the character becomes a full zombie when animated. If the body is not fully intact it must first be restored before being raised for example with a limited wish, wish or miracle.
Level Adjustment: +0


I think you meant LA: -5. Anyone dumb enough to take that race deserves the suffering they get for paying all stat penalties and an action penalty for immunity to mind affecting effects, stunning, crits, and ability damage.

[ericgrau]

Being a charger or casting spells with a mental penalty isn't terrible. Being a slow charger is easy to overcome with items. Lack of full attacks only hurts every other round-ish. It hurts quite a lot, but there are still ok builds. The mental stat penalties have almost no effect on melee and the action penalty has almost no effect on arcane casters. It's really only one or the other that hurts.

[Beheld]

Being a charger or casting spells with a mental penalty isn't terrible. Being a slow charger is easy to overcome with items. Lack of full attacks only hurts every other round-ish. It hurts quite a lot, but there are still ok builds.

Yeah... both those things are pretty terrible. Not to mention the points is that you get nothing for it. You still have a con score, you just have a con penalty to go with it, you aren't even getting one of the two really good immunities undead get, and you are paying -4 to casting stat on most classes and a con penalty and an action for it? Yeah no.

[ericgrau]

All undead immunities come with undead traits.

So in exchange you're immune to most direct effects besides damage, which you can shore up against in your build. BFC still hurts like it hurts anyone, but there are ways around that. With even moderately high op anklets of translocation covers it.

Becoming intentionally subject to mind affecting like the OP or giving up other benefits could be traded for reduced penalties.

There are lots of charger builds out there. I've made casters with low mental stats on purpose, with nothing to gain except higher scores in other abilities, and selected no-save spells. It works out pretty well.

[Beheld]

All undead immunities come with undead traits.

Well you know, except the very first one that you specifically took away. If you are going to let them be immune to Fort saves then why on earth are you so insistent that undead have to have a con score?

At least in the Tomes when someone gets the Unliving Subtype they also lose their immunity to fort saves so it makes actual sense.

[GreyBlack]

Well you know, except the very first one that you specifically took away. If you are going to let them be immune to Fort saves then why on earth are you so insistent that undead have to have a con score?

At least in the Tomes when someone gets the Unliving Subtype they also lose their immunity to fort saves so it makes actual sense.

Undead are immune to abilities which require a fortitude save unless an item would be forced to make the fortitude save. So, to save against Disintegrate would be required of undead, but not against disease. Keeping the con score helps an undead against those abilities. Potentially.

[Beheld]

Undead are immune to abilities which require a fortitude save unless an item would be forced to make the fortitude save. So, to save against Disintegrate would be required of undead, but not against disease. Keeping the con score helps an undead against those abilities. Potentially.

Undead are immune to those things because everything that doesn't have a con score are immune to those things, and no undead have con scores. That's why literally the very first entry is "No Constitution Score."

Keeping a Con stat and still getting an immunity that only applies to things with no Con score is basically nonsense.

[Zanos]

I missed that the HD changed to d12s, that does offeset the hp issue.

You could perhaps give a con, int, cha and action penalty similar to a zombie. The thing with an action penalty is that it hurts non-casters more than casters, especially arcane casters who don't melee, who can still manage pretty well with a standard action. Though mental penalties hurt them.

Something like this could work:
Half-Zombie

-2 con (not -), -4 int, -4 cha
HD unchanged. In spite of con destroyed at 0 hp, healed with negative energy, harmed with positive, etc.
Undead traits.
Zombie Slowness: Take only a move or a standard action each round. You may still move up to your speed (not twice your speed) and attack in the same round with a charge.
Turn resistance +2
Spells that raise the living don't work. Must be raised with an animate dead using onyxes worth 250 gp per HD rather than 25 gp. The usual level or con loss occurs, and con loss occurs instead of racial HD loss. If con reaches zero by this means the character becomes a full zombie when animated. If the body is not fully intact it must first be restored before being raised for example with a limited wish, wish or miracle.
Level Adjustment: +0

This is significantly worse than printed options to become undead.

[Beheld]

This is significantly worse than printed options to become undead.

It's significantly worse than any conceivable method of becoming undead. Who thought a character with zombie slowness also needed stat penalties? Who would ever think that at all? Who would ever choose that over anything.

[ericgrau]

This is significantly worse than printed options to become undead.

Then use one of those with LA +0 if you're ok with those. If the OP is ok with that then he could. d12 HD to overcome con - drawbacks and undead immunities for LA +0 and no drawbacks seems like a bit much though.

If fort immunities with a con seems to weird to you then switch to con - and give d12 HD with everything else. But it's pretty easy to keep the immunities and a con score. Just like there are non-mindless undead who are still immune to mind affecting effects. Works either way.

Like I said mental stat penalties have almost no effect on non-casters. Being restricted to a standard has almost no effect on an arcane caster. It's not this and that. It's basically this OR that for all practical purposes. That's why melee dumps the mentals all the time unless a specific ability requires them. They really don't care. It's not that complicated to understand dumping on a build and how it isn't a true loss. It happens constantly. And if the penalties really are too much, all you have to do is tone it back a little, such as -2 int, -2 cha, and a lesser action penalty, perhaps a halved speed. But it's not really two big drawbacks on practically any build. It's one.

[Kamai]

As a LA+0 template, it is probably just a bit too much. Maybe you guys can start with the Warforged as a base, and modify things to make it feel like an undead creature?