Need to counter control spells

[SangoProduction]

So...Our DM used control spells (aka save or suck...and then save again...and again, just in case you didn't suck on that first go)... A single Entangle basically stopped 3/4 of the entire team (because I wasn't introduced at this point). I come in, and get Greater Slumber or whatever it's called, so...well, the warblade was able to cut his way through the entangle at a rate of 5 ft per round...
Our spell casters failed every concentration check because of **** rolls...also they both ended up choosing to be buff-oriented druids so...lol. At least I have a +20 to 12 attacks per round. That's nice right?
The DM just had the enemies take the car and drive off instead of killing us very easily without us being able to do anything (particularly me, who still had 97 turns of sleep before I woke up by the time they ran off).

What do you do about this? I heard Healer class had some counter-control abilities, but they come really slowly (as class abilities at any rate), can only be cast once a day each, and are like first level druid spells, and wouldn't have really made any difference in this situation, I don't believe. Best I can come up with is the idea of Dispel Magic...but as mentioned, the casters couldn't cast anything.

The Warblade might have the Iron Heart thingy but....well...if he bothered to learn it.

[Troacctid]

For a Warblade, this is the main reason why you ready Iron Heart Surge. This is also one of the reasons why tactical teleportation is such an important effect to have. Heart of Water is also a very good spell, if you happen to be a Wizard or Druid.

As for Deep Slumber, the general advice would be to have a good Will save and protect yourself against mind-affecting effects. Against that particular spell, I'd try and disrupt the enemy caster's concentration or ready a counterspell, since it has a 1-round casting time, so you have a full round's worth of actions for your entire team before it resolves.

[SangoProduction]

For a Warblade, this is the main reason why you ready Iron Heart Surge. This is also one of the reasons why tactical teleportation is such an important effect to have. Heart of Water is also a very good spell, if you happen to be a Wizard or Druid.

As for Deep Slumber, the general advice would be to have a good Will save and protect yourself against mind-affecting effects. Against that particular spell, I'd try and disrupt the enemy caster's concentration or ready a counterspell, since it has a 1-round casting time, so you have a full round's worth of actions for your entire team before it resolves.

Yeah. They Warblade chose not to use IHS. Heart of X isn't allowed. This should convince my friends that teleportation items are useful though.

And thanks for the info on Deep Slumber. Apparently the GM though 1 round meant 1 turn (aka full action).

What about for a lowly demon who's trying to turn a new leaf? (level 6 Vrock from Savage Species, specifically)

[Troacctid]

For a Vrock? You have at-will Greater Teleport, so that's some pretty good tactical teleportation there. You also have at-will Telekinesis, which should let you attack effectively even if you're tied up somehow. You do need a Concentration check to use spell-like abilities while entangled, but a book-standard Vrock has +20 to Concentration, so that shouldn't be difficult.

Spell resistance gives you an extra layer of defense against save-or-lose effects like Deep Slumber, since most of them allow for it. Granted, most enemies will have a better-than-even chance of getting past it, but the same is true for the 20% miss chance you get from concealment--doesn't mean it isn't nice to have.

[Fizban]

My favorite counter for being put to sleep is having a familiar or other intelligent easy to miss minion under orders to attack me if I fall asleep. One point of damage and you're awake before you've even lost a turn. A cheap intelligent magic item can do this if it has a damaging spell to cast on you. Eventually you'll exceed the HD limit of Deep Slumber.

For the rest, in addition to Troacctid's advice I would recommend the list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). Even if you're not aiming to assemble a full set of magic items it's a good reminder of all the possibilities.

[SangoProduction]

For a Vrock? You have at-will Greater Teleport, so that's some pretty good tactical teleportation there. You also have at-will Telekinesis, which should let you attack effectively even if you're tied up somehow. You do need a Concentration check to use spell-like abilities while entangled, but a book-standard Vrock has +20 to Concentration, so that shouldn't be difficult.

Spell resistance gives you an extra layer of defense against save-or-lose effects like Deep Slumber, since most of them allow for it. Granted, most enemies will have a better-than-even chance of getting past it, but the same is true for the 20% miss chance you get from concealment--doesn't mean it isn't nice to have.

heh. I forgot to mention that I was only level 6 from the Vrock in Savage species. :(

[Troacctid]

Well, the Vrock racial class is pretty underpowered, so I guess it sucks to be you? *shrug*

[SangoProduction]

Well, the Vrock racial class is pretty underpowered, so I guess it sucks to be you? *shrug*

Yeah. Most of the racial classes are ridiculously under powered, but I mean, come on. How often do you get to play non-humanoid characters. I couldn't let that chance pass me up.

[Alex12]

How often do you get to play non-humanoid characters. I couldn't let that chance pass me up.

Speaking personally? All the time. Thinking back, I'm pretty sure the only time I've ever played a Humanoid character was when I was a Dvati (Which IMO only loosely counts). I've played Outsiders, Aberrations, Fey, Undead, and Monstrous Humanoids far more than I ever played Humanoids.

On-topic, though, against Entangle, note that the spell specifically doesn't target creatures, it targets plants in the area. Thus, it's really only useful in areas with a reasonable number of plants (so probably not indoors, underground, or in certain kinds of terrain, such as an arctic or desert wasteland). If you've got ways to deal with plants (fire magic, Antiplant Shell, Pathfinder's Defoliate spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/defoliate) or defoliant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Defoliant)) that'd probably be effective. Pass Without Trace might work, as should the ability to burrow or fly.

[SangoProduction]

Speaking personally? All the time. Thinking back, I'm pretty sure the only time I've ever played a Humanoid character was when I was a Dvati (Which IMO only loosely counts). I've played Outsiders, Aberrations, Fey, Undead, and Monstrous Humanoids far more than I ever played Humanoids.

On-topic, though, against Entangle, note that the spell specifically doesn't target creatures, it targets plants in the area. Thus, it's really only useful in areas with a reasonable number of plants (so probably not indoors, underground, or in certain kinds of terrain, such as an arctic or desert wasteland). If you've got ways to deal with plants (fire magic, Antiplant Shell, Pathfinder's Defoliate spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/defoliate) or defoliant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Defoliant)) that'd probably be effective. Pass Without Trace might work, as should the ability to burrow or fly.

Lucky.

Hmm...could have sworn there was something in that spell that said if the plants were destroyed, they just regrow. I was mistaken. Thanks considerably.

[Beheld]

Yeah. Most of the racial classes are ridiculously under powered, but I mean, come on. How often do you get to play non-humanoid characters. I couldn't let that chance pass me up.

Play one with homebrew that doesn't suck?

[SangoProduction]

Play one with homebrew that doesn't suck?

He's allowing all sources, just not dragon mag or homebrew.

[Beheld]

He's allowing all sources, just not dragon mag or homebrew.

Then play something besides a Vrock and play a Vrock with someone who can read the CR rules figure out that a Vrock is not the equivalent of a level 18 Wizard.

[SangoProduction]

Then play something besides a Vrock and play a Vrock with someone who can read the CR rules figure out that a Vrock is not the equivalent of a level 18 Wizard.

Frankly I am playing it because I would never be allowed to play a demon in any other game....nor a Treant Lumberjack with an adamantine chainsaw either. So, even if it is underpowered, I want to play it. I play non-pounce barbarians occasionally as well.

No one's playing a T1 "**** your game, it's mine now" caster anyway.

[Beheld]

No one's playing a T1 "**** your game, it's mine now" caster anyway.

Back in my day level 3 characters in level 6 games didn't call everyone who plays a Wizard or Cleric a game destroying monster.

Did you know that 16 Vrocks is an EL 17 encounter?

[SangoProduction]

Back in my day level 3 characters in level 6 games didn't call everyone who plays a Wizard or Cleric a game destroying monster.

Did you know that 16 Vrocks is an EL 17 encounter?

You are taking what you want to hear. If you reread the OP, there are 2 casters. They choose not to take over the game. T1 is literally about breaking the game. We are not playing a T1 campaign. That was the entire point of me saying that.

Let me translate it a little bit more clearly: I don't care that I'm 'underpowered.'

[Fizban]

Well there are plenty of published non-humanoids that don't suck, but if you want Vrock then all there is is Vrock. Vrock 6 has only cost you two hit dice so far in return for some decent natural armor and defensive spell like abilities, but the next two levels will drop your hit dice low enough that you could have some serious difficulty surviving in the melee combat where you're expected to participate. No matter how well you can contribute (any PC can contribute to combat with the right stuff), it's rather difficult when you have half as many hp as everyone else and fall over in a stiff breeze

It sounds like your DM is a stickler so I doubt it would work, but ignoring the rules and bailing out of Vrock into a PC class would let you shore up your survivability. By all rights Flight should be on at 5th or 6th (since flight ranks as LA+2, not LA+3). I certainly wouldn't go past 9th: the resistances/immunities won't keep you safe from weapon damage, spores/screech/summon just aren't strong enough, and Dance of Ruin only works if the whole party is Vrocks. Your most powerful features are access to stealth/detection skills, lots of natural weapons, and solid natural armor. Adding heavy armor on top of that should make you a hard but brittle tank. Rogue or Ranger levels would combine well with stealth and multiple natural weapons.

If you can't do that, and haven't already done so, I'd recommend at least grabbing mithril chain shirt ASAP. The classic "I don't need no proficiency" armor, and maybe a shield, will let you use your most significant AC bonuses to good effect. Carrying a bow is also a good counter to Entangle since you can just shoot them instead, and you have full martial.