Redesigning the Paladin nine swords style.

[toddex]

I wanted to try to redesign the paladin class to be more like the book of the nine swords classes. Unfortunately every time I put my nose the grinding stone I just end up coming out with this WoW style judgement system :(

[Jasdoif]

What's the Crusader missing that you want for your ToB paladin?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

The only thing I've found is on this (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update) page.

[Tokiko Mima]

I wanted to try to redesign the paladin class to be more like the book of the nine swords classes. Unfortunately every time I put my nose the grinding stone I just end up coming out with this WoW style judgement system :(

There was a really good rebalance for Paladins on the Wizards board. It pretty much brings them on par with the Tome of Battle classes, while still being distinctly paladin fluffy.

Link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045

[Call Me Siggy]

I wanted to try to redesign the paladin class to be more like the book of the nine swords classes. Unfortunately every time I put my nose the grinding stone I just end up coming out with this WoW style judgement system :(

Not that there's anything bad about what WoW did for the Paladin archetype. I would personally suggest changing some of the class features to optional uses for Stances (Aura of Courage, Divine Grace), Strikes (Smite Evil), and Boosts (Lay on hands, Remove Disease). Perhaps make Smite Evil usable as a Boost, giving your or an ally's weapons that property for a number of rounds...Obviously, styles would be similar to Crusader. I'd suggest White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Diamond mind.

[Ramza00]

I say forget about redoing the paladin class and make a new feat similar to Song of the White Raven (combines Bard/Warblade/Crusader) but this feat isn't for bards its for paladins.

Something like this
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Knight of the Templar
Prerequisites: Smite Evil, Turn Undead (or smite good/rebuke for paladin variants).
Benefit: Your Crusader and Warblade levels stack with your paladin levels for the number of Smite Evil Uses, the damage done per smite, and the benefits your mount gets. If you do not have a paladin mount, you do not gain one. If you have access to the Crusader's smite, your levels in Paladin and Warblade also stack with your Crusader levels for the number of damage you do.
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A Paladin 4/Crusader 16 will be 2 initiator levels behind a normal crusader (as well as 4 lvls behind for other crusader benefits such as delayed damage pool, mettle, and the smite that works on everybody). Gains smite evil, turn undead, divine grace, aura of good, aura of courage, detect evil. Will still have to worry about his paladin's code of conduct. Does not get a mount
A Paladin 5/Crusader 14/X 1 is 3 initiator levels behind a normal crusader. That is a big difference. Gets a mount though
Anybody that takes this feat and gets out soon as possible will not advance lay of hands, spellcasting or remove disease


In sum a power boost (like song of the white raven is a power boost for bards) for paladins, but not a real power boost for Crusaders/Warblades. Eventually it will pay off near level 20, but you have to play those level (and you don't get the awesome Warblade dual stance ability).

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I don't know if you should allow a second feat that will do similar benefits for initiator prestige classes, such as RKV, Deepstone Sentiel, Eternal Blade, Master of Nine etc. If you do the second feat should have the first feat as prerequisite.

[Ramza00]

Also perhaps a feat that incorporates the Knight into Tome of Battle, and/or a feat that incorporates the Knight into the Paladin classes.

[Matthew]

Knight of the Templar? Shouldn't that be Knight of the Temple or are they Knights of a particular Templar who was a Knight of the Temple?

[Ramza00]

I made the name on a whim for I realized right before I posted I didn't have a name for my example feat. I quickly made a name and then posted. The source of the name is Knights Templar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar), an order of knights who fought in the Crusades, (first founded to protect pilgrims who were traveling to Jerusalem after its conquest). Paladin has a similar historical association with the Crusades and the church, even if the origin of the word is Roman (related to the praetorian guard). But yeah Knights "of the" Templar doesn't really make sense grammatically, I added the "of the" without thinking on its meaning, just wanting it to be similar but not the same as the Knights Templar.

It probably needs a better name, I am open for suggestions :smallsmile: (something that combines the idea of paladin and crusade/warchief to associate the fact it is a paladin/crusader/warblade feat)

Also thoughts on balance?

[Matthew]

Yeah, I figured as much, I was feeling nit picky... Hmmn, names, names. Holy Champion? Divine Champion? Ordained Champion? Ordained Knight? I dunno, something like that, I suppose. Depends what you want to emphasise.

Balance wise it looks okay to me, but I can't pretend to be an expert on the intricacies of Tome of Battle.

[Ramza00]

posted the thread at the co boards wanting their input on balance. It is now called the Ordained champion and I add knowing a Stone Dragon, White raven, or Devoted Spirit stance.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=867079

[Draz74]

Note that this means a Swordsage can qualify thru a Stone Dragon stance.

That might not be a problem if the wording of the feat doesn't let the Swordsage benefit anyway. Like the way a Fighter 1 can take Quicken Spell if he wants to -- it just doesn't help him.

... or if you have no problem with Paladin/Swordsage concepts. Hmmm, an Arabian-themed Paladin/Swordsage Desert Wind adept could be pretty interesting.

[Ramza00]

A swordsage can qualify for it, he would just get nothing out of it as currently written. I picked crusader and warblade for flavorwise they seem most like a paladin. (though with warblade you may go paladin of freedom instead of normal paladin).

Of course you can also make a similar swordsage feat, the reasons why I didn't allow swordsage are mostly flavor and flavor is meant to be change. I can see an arabian knight style paladin/trickster with swordsage.

[Matthew]

posted the thread at the co boards wanting their input on balance. It is now called the Ordained champion and I add knowing a Stone Dragon, White raven, or Devoted Spirit stance.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=867079
Looks like you opted for Ordained Crusader, in the end. I think I liked Ordained Champion better. The respondents over on Wizards don't seem too enthused about the idea of Paladin/War Blades or Paladin/Crusader/War Blades. I quite liked the idea, to be honest, but I have a hard time figuring out what's balanced for Tome of Battle.

[Ramza00]

Looks like you opted for Ordained Crusader, in the end. I think I liked Ordained Champion better. The respondents over on Wizards don't seem too enthused about the idea of Paladin/War Blades or Paladin/Crusader/War Blades. I quite liked the idea, to be honest, but I have a hard time figuring out what's balanced for Tome of Battle.
And what the co boards said had little to do with balance but more with flavor. this is amazing for once they did what they don't usually do.

[Matthew]

Hah, hah. Almost ironic. Oh well, I liked it.