Dragon breath weapon ruling

[lv99wizard]

Hello,

I though of this tactic and would like to see the general consensus here.

Lets imagine your party is fighting a dragon. The wizard has cast the contingency spell to engulf him in Otiluke's Resilient Sphere when triggered. The wizard readies an action. He will cast Dimension Door on himself into the throat of the dragon as soon as he sees the breath weapon being used. And lets say the trigger of contingency is it goes off once inside a dragon.
The dragon uses its breath weapon, except there's a medium creature fully enclosed in an invulnerable shell in the way. What effects would this have on the dragon going forward in combat?

To my mind, even though dragons are immune to the type of damage their breath weapons deal, this would still cause some internal injury. Maybe 60% of the breath weapon damage done as piercing to the dragon and then give it disadvantage on recharging the breath weapon in subsequent turns. Does that seem reasonable, overpowered or otherwise?

[Tanarii]

I think you're overlooking a few things.

The caster and sphere would have to fit in the Dragons Mouth. I'm not sure at what size dragon that would happen though.

Ottilukes Resilient Sphere can be moved just fine. The Dragon can spit it out.

If you use Dimension Door to try to teleport into a place already occupied by a creature (which is what you are intentionally trying to do) the teleport fails and you both take 4d6 force damage.

Also:

To my mind, even though dragons are immune to the type of damage their breath weapons deal, this would still cause some internal injury. why? They're immune. That doesn't mean 'immune only on the outside'. It means immune.

[Lalliman]

I personally would argue against the assumption that you can teleport into a dragon's mouth at all. Creatures don't actually stand still outside of their turn - everyone is constantly moving simultaneously - and readying an action doesn't freeze the interrupted creature in time. I'd probably tell you to make some kind of roll, with a fairly low chance of success, to successfully teleport into its mouth. Failing the roll means a part of you overlaps with a part of the dragon upon appearance, causing the regular effect of teleporting into an occupied space, as stated above.

As for the self-damage, I assume you're looking at it like suppressing a sneeze, causing the pressure to deal the damage rather than the fire. I don't think a dragon's fire breath comes out at the speed and force of a sneeze though, and it the force almost certainly doesn't increase with the damage; the damage represents the heat of the fire. A small amount of bludgeoning damage might be fair, but I think your DM would also be justified in ruling that it doesn't have any additional effect. Apart from negating the breath attack of course.

[Inevitability]

The issues of teleporting into another creature's space notwithstanding, there's still the fact that the sphere is being hit by the full force of a breath weapon. It shouldn't be damaged, no, but it definitely should be moved.

[lv99wizard]

I did overlook the wording of dimension door. I suppose technically the spell would fail, I was just imagining the dragon's throat as empty space. Let's imagine the wizard flies into the dragon's mouth and that then triggers contingency ->resilient sphere.

Although it can be moved, the sphere encloses a 5ft cube for a medium creature. I think that would be larger than the diameter of the dragon's throat, thus causing it to get stuck, making it difficult to regurgitate. Maybe give the dragon a save for this?

The damage occurs because the entirety of the breath weapon is blocked from escaping. This would put the dragon's insides under forces more extreme than would usual. That's why I think it would cause a piercing internal injury - the idea that the blockage in the throat would cause rupturing internally of the dragon's insides.

[Mjolnirbear]

Argue for suffocation instead. Easier to rule on.

[lv99wizard]

Argue for suffocation instead. Easier to rule on.

The sphere only lasts for 1 minute so which isn't long enough for suffocation effects to be applied.

Are there any other cunning ways to deal with dragons in general and breath weapons in particular?

[Mellack]

I did overlook the wording of dimension door. I suppose technically the spell would fail, I was just imagining the dragon's throat as empty space. Let's imagine the wizard flies into the dragon's mouth and that then triggers contingency ->resilient sphere.

Although it can be moved, the sphere encloses a 5ft cube for a medium creature. I think that would be larger than the diameter of the dragon's throat, thus causing it to get stuck, making it difficult to regurgitate. Maybe give the dragon a save for this?

The damage occurs because the entirety of the breath weapon is blocked from escaping. This would put the dragon's insides under forces more extreme than would usual. That's why I think it would cause a piercing internal injury - the idea that the blockage in the throat would cause rupturing internally of the dragon's insides.


I would think that any dragon that has a throat big enough for your 5 foot wizard to fly into would also be big enough to spit out you and your sphere. The bigger problem is how do you get your wizard into the dragon's throat to start with. I don't believe that is possible under the current rules, and there is no "called shot" or such rules that can do a specific location like that I know of.

[darkrose50]

Are those immovable rods still around? Those could cause quite a confusion if activated inside a dragons throat.

[JackPhoenix]

I did overlook the wording of dimension door. I suppose technically the spell would fail, I was just imagining the dragon's throat as empty space. Let's imagine the wizard flies into the dragon's mouth and that then triggers contingency ->resilient sphere.

Although it can be moved, the sphere encloses a 5ft cube for a medium creature. I think that would be larger than the diameter of the dragon's throat, thus causing it to get stuck, making it difficult to regurgitate. Maybe give the dragon a save for this?

The damage occurs because the entirety of the breath weapon is blocked from escaping. This would put the dragon's insides under forces more extreme than would usual. That's why I think it would cause a piercing internal injury - the idea that the blockage in the throat would cause rupturing internally of the dragon's insides.

But won't the Resilient Sphere fail if there's not enough place for it to form in the dragon's throat?

Also, if you block the dragon's mouth, the flame will obviously come out of the other end.

[Tanarii]

Also, if you block the dragon's mouth, the flame will obviously come out of the other end.Dragon with fire-ass regret.
"Damn it, I knew I shouldn't have eaten that Wizard. That'll teach me to eat late Knight snacks instead."
:smallbiggrin:

[lv99wizard]

Also, if you block the dragon's mouth, the flame will obviously come out of the other end.

But that end isn't designed for fire breathing...:smalltongue: So would the dragon take damage?

Are there any reliable ways to block a breath weapon in this manner and would that cause damage to the dragon?

What if the dragon was affected by the Contagion (Flesh Rot) spell?
The spell states "Flesh Rot. The creature’s flesh decays. The creature has disadvantage on Charisma checks and vulnerability to all damage." (PHB p227).

Would this overcome immunity to fire for a red dragon? Would the dragon take double the damage of its breath weapon if it was blocked from escaping in the usual way?

[saeval]

Are there any reliable ways to block a breath weapon in this manner and would that cause damage to the dragon?

Would this overcome immunity to fire for a red dragon? Would the dragon take double the damage of its breath weapon if it was blocked from escaping in the usual way?

No, not without the DM willing to really fudge how things work for the sake of entertaining the group, which, they'd do if the whole group is thinking its hilarious... which they might allow you to try, and fail spectacularly at, being swallowed whole, or in bits and pieces, by a dragon... if the whole group would find that hilarious. RAW, it is not doable.

The spell I believe would overcome the immunity (don't have a book in front of me to verify) but one instance of immunity paired with one instance of vulnerability = normal damage. Double damage would be a large stretch for any DM to allow, from its own energy type.

[lv99wizard]

The spell I believe would overcome the immunity (don't have a book in front of me to verify) but one instance of immunity paired with one instance of vulnerability = normal damage. Double damage would be a large stretch for any DM to allow, from its own energy type.

Is that RAW somwhere? I can't find anything stating that invulnerability and immunity cancel out and the creature takes normal damage.

Edit:Incidentally, would a dragon take damage from it's own breath weapon if it loses immunity to that damage type?

[CantigThimble]

No, not without the DM willing to really fudge how things work for the sake of entertaining the group, which, they'd do if the whole group is thinking its hilarious... which they might allow you to try, and fail spectacularly at, being swallowed whole, or in bits and pieces, by a dragon... if the whole group would find that hilarious. RAW, it is not doable.

The spell I believe would overcome the immunity (don't have a book in front of me to verify) but one instance of immunity paired with one instance of vulnerability = normal damage. Double damage would be a large stretch for any DM to allow, from its own energy type.

Are you confusing immunity with resistance? Because 0 damage x2 from vulnerability = still 0 damage in my mind. I don't think there's anything that overcomes immunity besides just using a different type of damage.

[saeval]

Are you confusing immunity with resistance? Because 0 damage x2 from vulnerability = still 0 damage in my mind. I don't think there's anything that overcomes immunity besides just using a different type of damage.

I'm at work supposedly doing grown up stuff and don't have any material in front of me. It is a total spitball theory, that is most likely wrong. Your simple statement has me agreeing with you.

[RulesJD]

Any dragon of Adult size or lower fits nicely inside a Wall of Force sphere/Half-dome (that can float 1/2 inch off the ground, just FYI. Use that knowledge as you will.

[lv99wizard]

Are you confusing immunity with resistance? Because 0 damage x2 from vulnerability = still 0 damage in my mind. I don't think there's anything that overcomes immunity besides just using a different type of damage.

The vulnerability comes from the Contagion (Flesh Rot) spell (p.227 from the PHB):

"Contagion (Flesh Rot). The creature’s flesh decays. The creature has disadvantage on Charisma checks and vulnerability to all damage."

This seems to be very clear that the creature is vulnerable to all damage once the spell takes effect. This should overcome any immunity as well, for the duration of the spell.

[CantigThimble]

Why should it overcome immunity? Where do the rules say that you can only have one of resistance, vulnerability or immunity to a damage type at a time? They say multiple instances of each individual one do not stack but I don't see any reason to believe they are mutually exclusive.

[Mellack]

There is no rule I know of that would suggest vulnerability cancels immunity. Vulnerability doubles damage. Immunity reduces all damage to zero. So you can choose to double then reduce that high number to zero, or reduce to zero and double that zero. Either way gives no damage.