The reason why word of recall (and other loopholes) won't really invalidate the vote.

[Jack Of Rivia]

Hello everybody. I've been reading on the forum a few interessing theories on how a god may invalidate his own vote, circunventing the "No backsies" rule. The word of recall, the suicide of an high priest excetera excetera. All interessing stuff, i concede, but i feel that these teorie fail to understand the focal point of the situation.
In my opinon, the point is not if there is or not a loophole tha can be used to change the outcome of the vote, the point is that even if these loophole exist, it won't be used because.... because by using it, YOU'LL START A WAR WITH THE WESTERN PANTHEON.

It's funny to write this but, the rules of the godsmoot are not "divine rules": these are the terms of a "political alliance" between different group of beings. It is not a perfext solution, just the only way group of being with so many difference between themselves found to cooperate. The gods accept these, in Roy's words, "ridiculous convoluted rules" because the only alternative is chaos - and not the good one, the chaos of the Snarl.

So, if the high priest of Heimdall kills himself, or use vote of recall, probably he can invalidate his god's vote: but that action would be surely interpretated as cheating from the gods of the other pantheons, who are reasonably observing, very concerned. To the western pantheon, in particular, it would be a spit in their faces. From their point of view, they are so close to finally put an end to the danger of the snarl, and they would find their divine lives in danger... and all BECAUSE OF A DIRTY CHEAP TRICK. It would prove that the godsmoot system is flawed, that it can't be used for decision.

The consequence may be terrifying, even worse than the distruction of the world itself: it may alienate the western pantheon. If the world gets destroyed, we know for certain that it can be rebuilt: but are we sure that it can be done without the cooperation of all the pantheons? After all, maybe it was a reason of necessity why pantheons so different decided to built a world together, rather than built one world for each.

So,for the No Faction gods and their high priests, the problem is not to find a loophole to exploit to invalidate Hel's vote. If there is one, their centuries of planning and their servant's excidingly high wisdom scores would have already find. No, the challenge is to find and exploit one without showing their hands in this.

Roy Greenhilt attack on Durkula was the perfect solution, because it wasn't their doing: it was an internal problem to the church of Hel. Sure, the wetern Pantheon still won't be happy with this result: but even if they suspect foul play from the nothern gods, they wouldn't find any proof, because they are actually innocent. I immagine it would go like this:

Nergal: " you Nothern dogs have cheated! You have corrupted the bodyguard of the high priest of Hel to make him assassinate his boss!!"

Heimdall: "Nergal, calm yourself. Here, this is the soul of the mortal who commit the deed, that Roy Greenhilt. Fell free to inspect it. You'll find no sign of magiacl manipulation, or any trace of contact with another god, or even one of our servants. The decision to strike down the High Priest was his own free will."

Nergal: "......"

Heimdall: "After your inspection, please return it. We need the mortal to destroy the lich who is tampering with the portal. You know, since the No passed."

But if the same result was obtained with another system, say, the word of recall? There is no way the Western Pantheon would have belived in the good faith of the nothern gods. Even if it was really the autonomos decision of an high priest, without a direct order of his deity, the western pantheon would have never been persuaded. It would have meant chaos. It would have meant divine war.

Thanks for the attention.

[Keltest]

If the western pantheon were so war-hungry that they would jump at such a feeble excuse to cause a fight, they likely would have been dealt with the same way as the snarl, assuming they were even told about such an event.

[gmatht]

I think the exact opposite is true. Most of the gods seem to be just "calling it in". In Roy's speech he notes that the Gods probably don't care about the fate of this particular world as much as the people living on it do. In #999 the god of the moon says "I don't care one way or the other, but I'd rather do less work". They were concerned that representatives of the demi-gods may not have bothered even turning up.

My interpretation is that, Heimdall could ferment an "internal church dispute", but that would be gauche. Even though there is no rules against murdering the Ushers, but the other gods of murder and mayhem didn't because they care about the Godsmoot (and avoiding them*selves* being eaten by the snarl) vastly more than they care about a few mortal lives here or there. Given that even most of the truly vile evil gods mostly behave at the Godsmoot, I presume that disrupting the proceedings is not just "evil" but also an embarrassment.

Hel doesn't care about embarrassment, if she has chance of becoming the Queen of the Gods. Roy cares even less about embarrassing Hel. Hel's gloat may have made pushed Heimdall into the "no" camp. Even so, his original reasons for voting would still stand. Heimdall may not care enough to risk embarrassment both from disrupting the proceedings *and* admitting he made a mistake. Some other "Yes" voting gods like Tyr might also reconsider but be deterred by embarrassment from breaking the spirit of the rules.

[Ganbatte]

But if the same result was obtained with another system, say, the word of recall? There is no way the Western Pantheon would have belived in the good faith of the nothern gods. Even if it was really the autonomos decision of an high priest, without a direct order of his deity, the western pantheon would have never been persuaded. It would have meant chaos. It would have meant divine war.


Just like how Hel's sending her "former" High Priest to rig the vote in her favour, right?
Looks like chaos and divine war are coming one way or the other.

[Rift_Wolf]

I was expecting an out-of-world, stories-do-not-work-that-way explanation. Thanks for coming up with an in-world, new and well thought out explanation.

I agree with you; so far Hel hasn't outright cheated, even if her plans been distasteful to the rest of the pantheon. Word of Recall would be a total divine-backsie, regardless of some threads attempting to codify the backsie as a legal definition.

[Jack Of Rivia]

If the western pantheon were so war-hungry that they would jump at such a feeble excuse to cause a fight, they likely would have been dealt with the same way as the snarl, assuming they were even told about such an event.

This is not a trivial situation: their very survival is on stake in here... the termination of potentially endless existences, the destruction of an incalculable number of souls, plus the negation of every potentially future world that may arise.. And all this because a stupid internal question of the nothern pantheon, because they prefer to have that old fart Odin rather then that gothic Chick Hel as a figurehead.

From an external point of view, the danger of having Hel as Queen of the Nothern Pantheon is just an internal problem. Having the High Priest of Heimdall use WoR to invalidate his own god would give the impression to the other pantheons that the Gods of the Nothern Pantheon care MORE about their internal problems than the survival of the entire Divine Population. How could they cooperate with each other after a breach of trust like that?

And... they will be right. A trick like that would prove, without any doubt, that the God who pull it out is totally honorless.


My interpretation is that, Heimdall could ferment an "internal church dispute", but that would be gauche. Even though there is no rules against murdering the Ushers, but the other gods of murder and mayhem didn't because they care about the Godsmoot (and avoiding them*selves* being eaten by the snarl) vastly more than they care about a few mortal lives here or there. Given that even most of the truly vile evil gods mostly behave at the Godsmoot, I presume that disrupting the proceedings is not just "evil" but also an embarrassment.

It is more than just embarrassment.

Let's focus on Heimdall, noble God of The Watch. He is ready to destroy the world and end his own follower' mortal life, all in the name of the supreme values which defy his very being, the protection of the God's Race and of the souls of the mortals. You may not share his view, but you must admit that he's true to his own values. But if he backsies, within the rules or not, he woud prove that his values are, in the Heath Ledger Joker's words, "a bad joke": he' s true to them only when he doesn't have to pay a personal price to them, when he doesn't have to sacrifice anything. But when his belief costs him something, to serve under Hel as his Queen - a Queen who probably would favor other evil deities like her own brother Fenris, and maybe would demote Heimdall to the rank of minor god, then he throw them away: he "drop them at the first sign of problems".

Of course, we all know that it wouldn't be so simple, that one important factor in his choice would be the desire to save the souls of the Dwarven Race from an afterlife under Hel, and the fear for all the evil and suffering that Hel would bring in the recreated world, but the other Gods would simply never belive it. His Honor would be forever sullied.



Just like how Hel's sending her "former" High Priest to rig the vote in her favour, right?
Looks like chaos and divine war are coming one way or the other.

Well.. maybe.

Let's analyze the situation: what's Hel doing, technically? She is sending the fHPoH to manipulate the elders of the Dwarfen Clans, who are, in a sense, the member of Dvalin's "church". This is impolite? Of course.. but let's remeber that at the very same moment, the High Priests of the NO faction are EXTERMINATING the members of Hel's church. Members who are invading the godsmoot place without permission, right: but still, the impression is that attacking the church of another god is fair game for the Godsmoot. The Rationale behind the Rules is to let the Gods use their HP to express their vote, and whatever happens to One God's church doesn't really matter, because it does not influence his decision. It just happens that Dvalin is a "nutty" demigod, that he submit his divine will to the choices of mortals - with all the prolem that follows, like a vampire dominating these mortals minds.

Stll, i agree that Hel is playing a very dangerous game, one that can - and probably WILL backfire. But quoting gmath
Hel doesn't care about embarrassment, if she has chance of becoming the Queen of the Gods.


Thanks for coming up with an in-world, new and well thought out explanation.

Thanks Man.:smallsmile:

[Keltest]

This is not a trivial situation: their very survival is on stake in here... the termination of potentially endless existences, the destruction of an incalculable number of souls, plus the negation of every potentially future world that may arise.. And all this because a stupid internal question of the nothern pantheon, because they prefer to have that old fart Odin rather then that gothic Chick Hel as a figurehead.

From an external point of view, the danger of having Hel as Queen of the Nothern Pantheon is just an internal problem. Having the High Priest of Heimdall use WoR to invalidate his own god would give the impression to the other pantheons that the Gods of the Nothern Pantheon care MORE about their internal problems than the survival of the entire Divine Population. How could they cooperate with each other after a breach of trust like that?

And... they will be right. A trick like that would prove, without any doubt, that the God who pull it out is totally honorless.

How the Northern Pantheon decides which way to vote is its own affair. And given the number of chaotic evil gods out there, being labeled as "honorless" is, to say the least, unimpressive.

[Deliverance]

It is more than just embarrassment.

Let's focus on Heimdall, noble God of The Watch. He is ready to destroy the world and end his own follower' mortal life, all in the name of the supreme values which defy his very being, the protection of the God's Race and of the souls of the mortals. You may not share his view, but you must admit that he's true to his own values. But if he backsies, within the rules or not, he woud prove that his values are, in the Heath Ledger Joker's words, "a bad joke": he' s true to them only when he doesn't have to pay a personal price to them, when he doesn't have to sacrifice anything. But when his belief costs him something, to serve under Hel as his Queen - a Queen who probably would favor other evil deities like her own brother Fenris, and maybe would demote Heimdall to the rank of minor god, then he throw them away: he "drop them at the first sign of problems".

Of course, we all know that it wouldn't be so simple, that one important factor in his choice would be the desire to save the souls of the Dwarven Race from an afterlife under Hel, and the fear for all the evil and suffering that Hel would bring in the recreated world, but the other Gods would simply never belive it. His Honor would be forever sullied.

Your arguments for why Heimdall would never "backsie", because it would show his values as a bad joke and leave his honour forever sullied would be more impressive if it wasn't, exactly, Heimdall's declared desire to "backsie" that brought the rule about "backsieing" to our attention. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)

[Rift_Wolf]

Your arguments for why Heimdall would never "backsie", because it would show his values as a bad joke and leave his honour forever sullied would be more impressive if it wasn't, exactly, Heimdall's declared desire to "backsie" that brought the rule about "backsieing" to our attention. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)

I think you've misread the situation. Heimdall never said anything about backsies. He was the proxy representing the 'yes' vote; he was the only God in the room who could have backsied his vote to make Hel lose. Hel addressed him, and by extension all other yes voters who might be considering backsies. If each god had a proxy, she would've said 'dont even think of backsies, you lot' or words to that effect.
Of course, if every god had a proxy, the world would've ended when Rich's computer exploded from the extra transparent layers.

[Deliverance]

I think you've misread the situation. Heimdall never said anything about backsies. He was the proxy representing the 'yes' vote; he was the only God in the room who could have backsied his vote to make Hel lose. Hel addressed him, and by extension all other yes voters who might be considering backsies. If each god had a proxy, she would've said 'dont even think of backsies, you lot' or words to that effect.
Of course, if every god had a proxy, the world would've ended when Rich's computer exploded from the extra transparent layers.
And I think you are misreading the situation. Every god who voted for the destruction could have made Hel lose by performing a backsie by zotting his high priest and changing his vote, if backsies were allowed, and all the gods can hear what Hel says. Heimdall has no special standing besides being present by proxy in order to give the initial yes to destroy argument.

Hel has just spent an entire page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) addressing all the other gods talking directly to them despite their not being present by proxy and telling them how thrilled she is. If she wanted to make a general address to the yes voters on the topic of backsies unaffected by anything Heimdall was doing, there does not appear to be any reason for her to address it specifically to Heimdall.

On the other hand, Hel addressing Heimdal and saying, "No changing your vote, Heimdall" is the natural answer one would expect if Heimdall had given some indication that he was considering exactly that.


Still, I'll grant that it isn't as clear-cut as I suggested, since we don't actually hear Heimdall say anything to that effect, only what appears to be Hel giving an answer to it.

[Jack Of Rivia]

I think you've misread the situation. Heimdall never said anything about backsies. He was the proxy representing the 'yes' vote; he was the only God in the room who could have backsied his vote to make Hel lose. Hel addressed him, and by extension all other yes voters who might be considering backsies. If each god had a proxy, she would've said 'dont even think of backsies, you lot' or words to that effect.
Of course, if every god had a proxy, the world would've ended when Rich's computer exploded from the extra transparent layers.

That.

There is no proof that Heimdall has "declared" his desire to change his vote. Sure, he may have said it off-panel, but it's more probable that Hel is just reading the conflict on his face - or that she know him well enought to understand what is he thinking about (maybe she is wrong, we never get to for sure what are his thoughts on the matter).

Anyway, we have to remeber that while, it's one thing to backsies when it's allowed by the rules -it is still an embarrassement, and another to have to do it with a trick, a frankly dishonorable stratagem. We are talking of a Lawful Deity, maybe the most Lawful of the whole Nothern Pantheon: can we really see that kind of God sending a message to his HP asking him to kill himself? Or using word of recall? Frankly, it's out of character.

My point is, Heimdall have pratically no choice:from one side the end of mabye billions of mortal live, the damnation of an entire race of honorable beings, the indignity to have to suffer Hel's reign of the Nothern Pantheon, and the fear of the evil that she would surely unleash on the new world; from the other, the risk of annihilation for billions of mortal souls, and the Gods very survival, but also the certainity of facing dishonour in front of the other gods, the excuciating pain to have to use caotic means to reach that end, if not utright evil, like asking a living being to commit suicide, or his bodyguard to kill him; and last, but not least, my inital point, the concrete risk to offend the other pantheons.

To me, there is little doubt that a god like Heimdall could do nothing except waiting. Other Gods may decide differently, in his shoes? Possibly, but not the Gods of the Yes Faction. Let's analize them for a moment.
Tyr is the god of war, he exist to fight and win, and, as he said, he's goign to sacrifice everything to achieve victory: in the mith, he sacrificed his right end to chain Fenris, the destroyer of the world. To him the destruction of the planet and having to serve under Hel is a small price to "chain" this setting ultimate "Fenris", The Snarl. Njord seem to be very uninterested on which God would rule the Patheon, and happy to get the opportunity of change; Hodor seem indifferent to this kind of consideration, while Fenris would be more than happy to live in a world where his enemies Thor, Heimdall and Odin are umiliated. And to the God of Secret the prority is one, and only one, to make the mortals forgot the existance of the snarl: but with four enormous portal already opened, the only way is the destruction of the world.

Taht leaves only 3 gods who can have the motivation to change their votes. One is Heimdall, and i have already written about him. Another is Sunna, the sun goddess: judging by her HP behaviour,she is hostile to undeads and wouldn't be thrilled to a new world populated of vampires; still, judging from the single panel in whicj she spoke, she seems to me a very paranoic individual. In the end i think that her fear for her own survival will still prevail on every other consideration. That leave Skadi. We don't know much about her. She is a goddes of the wildlife, and probaly not a sympathizers of Hel and undeath in general; but still since her dominion seems to be more about natural life than civilized life, and since undead preys on civilized humanoid, she ha no real reason to having a conflict with Hel: after all, what do a forest goddess care if the cities of the new world are under the dominion of vampiric overlords? Beside, she seems to have a brutal personality: she does not appear to possess enough refienry to pull a trick like the word of recall.

Of course, if LOKI was one of the Yes Gods, well it would be pratically sure that he would have tried some dirty trick to invalidate his own vote. But Rich is writing a different story....