How to become a Cleric in 5e?

[Pinjata]

So, here is how usually things go in my campaigns: Player says he'll be a cleric. He casts spells, smites with his hammer, occasionally mentiones "prepping spells in the morning".

While this is all fun and games, it is awkwardly bad regarding fluff. In dnd you have pious people, you have priest and among those, extremelly pious and devoted people some get clerical powers. They are aspects of their gods in the realm. Not a sum of hp, AC and ability to cast spells.

If players agree on this, should I demand exceptional piety of players who play clerics? What would be proper way to do it? I was thinking maybe demanding of a player that during each session start reads up a bt on his god and religion and perhaps gets a hero point for that so it's not just DM being naggy. If others would want something similar, they could share something on the setting (Sword coast) and also het Hero point.

On the other hand being a cleric will bring in major social benefits. Fighter is just a superior athlete with a sword, but cleric is chosen of god. He'll be adored by pretty much all people.

What are your thoughts on it? Experiences?

[goto124]

Can he refluff his cleric into, say, a wizard? Look like he just wants the mechanics of the cleric. Refluffing has been done many times before. It's worth a shot at least.

Heck, even the paladin only has to follow one of the Oaths, and there's the Oathbreaker.

Just have the world react realistically to the way his character acts.

[nedz]

I don't worry about the small things. For me Clerics in the party are useful in that they provide direction and focus. I expect Clerics to abide by their beliefs in the big things.

I guess it depends upon your play-style: do you role-play the minutia, in detail, or do you focus on the main action ? Some players like small talk - others find it boring, even frustrating.

[Talyn]

If the gods in your campaign demand certain ritual behavior from their priests, you can simply rule that it happens "off-camera" so to speak, during the down times that are skipped over.

Maybe he baptizes babies, or speaks the ritual words over the sacrificial fire, or just says grace for the party before they eat. It's all stuff that doesn't need to be a part of your precious, limited gaming time unless the players want it to be.

Other gods (particularly ones with a more Chaotic bent) probably don't care about rituals that much. Gods can see hearts - if the Cleric truly believes in the ideals of the god, that's good enough for the investment in divine power. Just make sure that the cleric's actions are more-or-less in line with the god's ideals and goals, and that will be enough to show that he's one of the truly faithful.

[Sredni Vashtar]

I typically think of clerics as the people the gods choose to grant power to, regardless of whether or not they're priests or even pious before their holy awakening.

[Pinjata]

Very interesting. thanks

[dps]

If the gods in your campaign demand certain ritual behavior from their priests, you can simply rule that it happens "off-camera" so to speak, during the down times that are skipped over.

Maybe he baptizes babies, or speaks the ritual words over the sacrificial fire, or just says grace for the party before they eat. It's all stuff that doesn't need to be a part of your precious, limited gaming time unless the players want it to be.

This. Personally, I'd like devotion and piety to a deity to be part of gameplay for a cleric at least to some extent, but don't force it on your players unless they want it.


Just make sure that the cleric's actions are more-or-less in line with the god's ideals and goals, and that will be enough to show that he's one of the truly faithful.

And this as well. Though I think this has more to with the goals and theme of the campaign than with mechanics of gameplay.

[Skorj]

... In dnd you have pious people, you have priest and among those, extremelly pious and devoted people some get clerical powers. They are aspects of their gods in the realm. Not a sum of hp, AC and ability to cast spells.

If players agree on this, should I demand exceptional piety of players who play clerics? What would be proper way to do it? I was thinking maybe demanding of a player that during each session start reads up a bt on his god and religion and perhaps gets a hero point for that so it's not just DM being naggy. ...

There are many good ways to roleplay a cleric. Being "pious" is only one of them, and not perhaps the most interesting as it's the most obvious take on the character. Without straying too much into the real world, lets just say that it's quite rare for a cleric to be more faithful and pious and observant than everyone in his flock. There are also many jobs, lay and ordained, within any large religious organization, and "preacher" is just one of them.

What's the character's role within the church? A lawful god and a chaotic god will have very different organizations, one would expect. There's a reason that, in English, "clerical" relates to both "clerics" and "clerks" - they were the same for many centuries. Up to the setting how literate the common man is, and how the work of "accountants and secretaries" is divided between the mages, the clerics, and everyone else, but that's just one example of how "preacher" is just one role for a "cleric". The church of a chaotic god would be quite different (in my campaign the "church" of the god of wine and partying is a very interesting place, since they're both socially respoinsible (chaotic good) and hear a lot of drunken secrets).

A cleric character could be bitter and cynical about the church organization, but doubly-determined to lead by example as a result. He could be a very vocal hypocrite, always going on about the virtues and then doing the opposite. He could be faithful but weak willed, afraid to be too preachy because he doesn't want to be that hypocrite. He could focused on actions, not words, determined to do good (or evil), instead of talking about it.

TLDR: don't force players into shallow stereotypes.

[Thrudd]

This really depends on the setting. My advice would be to make sure whatever you decide about being a cleric, that it doesn't make the class unplayable. Making it more restrictive than paladins used to be is not going to work for most players.

I agree that you should think about it for world building and verisimilitude reasons, but don't add fluff that will require altering actual rules.

[Kane0]

Try an in-game solution. Have NPCs show interest in the cleric's deity, ask about them. Have other religious iconography show up in game, and have clerics of the same and other deities respond accordingly to his status. If you treat him as more than a statsheet, the player will be inclined to do the same.

Also, the 5e inspiration mechanic works wonder for this. Particularly well played speeches and actions should earn some.

[Pinjata]

There are many good ways to roleplay a cleric. Being "pious" is only one of them, and not perhaps the most interesting as it's the most obvious take on the character. Without straying too much into the real world, lets just say that it's quite rare for a cleric to be more faithful and pious and observant than everyone in his flock.
Why the heck would a god bestow cleric powers on someone NOT pious, someone NOT a paragon of his divine cause?


There are also many jobs, lay and ordained, within any large religious organization, and "preacher" is just one of them.

These are priests. No magical powers, holds sermons, has some respect in small community.


He could be a very vocal hypocrite, always going on about the virtues and then doing the opposite.

Yeah, well, in D&D he has powers stripped from him for doing this.

[caden_varn]

Yeah, well, in D&D he has powers stripped from him for doing this.

Not by RAW he doesn't. People may houserule it, but it is not in the rules anywhere.
In Ebberon this explicitly happens I believe - the very existence of the gods is up for question, and exactly what power a cleric taps into to cast his spells is unknown.

[Pinjata]

Not by RAW he doesn't. People may houserule it, but it is not in the rules anywhere.
In Ebberon this explicitly happens I believe - the very existence of the gods is up for question, and exactly what power a cleric taps into to cast his spells is unknown.
As you would have seen, if you took a look at the title of the thread, this is 5e question.

As for 5e:
"The gods don’t grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling."

... and since I as a DM and unable to FORCE my player into high calling and dedication, instead of say, spending all money on hookers and blow, the only way to reduce this is to take his powers away. Why waste powers on some regular murderhobo if you are a god?

I'm not saying I'd do this, but by rules, you only get the powers if you are sort of Joan Of Arc. If you stop being that, if this is all your background that you completelly ignore over the sesions, then you should lose your powers.

[Spore]

I am not a religious person. Yes, I would want to play a cleric sometime. No, I don't want to express my faith in an imaginary god just because my character receives its powers from it. I really prefer the philosophical cleric to a divine one. If it's FR you'd have to pick a patron deity (but that doesn't mean you'd have to pray to it). My clerics would lead their life according to their philosophy. They'd give advice, they'd use their powers to influence their surroundings. And they will probably still have a singular god that gives them their divine magic.

And if part of its spell preparation is not bound to rituals or prayers then so be it.


In Ebberon this explicitly happens I believe - the very existence of the gods is up for question, and exactly what power a cleric taps into to cast his spells is unknown.

My money is on something regarding the world dragons. Conviction (aka wisdom casting) is just another way than cunning (Intelligence) or pure willpower to wrestle magical power (charisma) from the cosmos.

[Pinjata]

I am not a religious person. Yes, I would want to play a cleric sometime. No, I don't want to express my faith in an imaginary god just because my character receives its powers from it. I really prefer the philosophical cleric to a divine one. If it's FR you'd have to pick a patron deity (but that doesn't mean you'd have to pray to it). My clerics would lead their life according to their philosophy. They'd give advice, they'd use their powers to influence their surroundings. And they will probably still have a singular god that gives them their divine magic.

And if part of its spell preparation is not bound to rituals or prayers then so be it.

I guess god of philosophy grants you powers then. IF you are chosen for "a high calling". No god of philosophy = no powers. No high calling = no powers.

Also I think in D&D prayers give power to gods. No prayers = dead god. So if you do not pray, there is exactly 0 reason to get anything in this case.

Disclaimer: I do not intend to do this in my game, but I find reasoning faulty per Core books 5e.

[Keltest]

Why the heck would a god bestow cleric powers on someone NOT pious, someone NOT a paragon of his divine cause? to mess with them? As a favor to an ancestor? Because they want them to develop into a paragon of their divine cause? That's basically the fluff for the Favored Soul class.


Yeah, well, in D&D he has powers stripped from him for doing this.
Only if following the virtues is a strict and necessary part of his god's creed. A priest of a god of thieves might advocate (in public) for being trusting and leaving your doors unlocked at night, for example.

[goto124]

A priest of a god of thieves might advocate (in public) for being trusting and leaving your doors unlocked at night, for example.

I now have my next character concept.

[Logosloki]

To become a cleric you must be called or ask to be called. Being forced into service of your deity is just as popular in current and historical religions as being called or calling out (Jonah being one of my favourites as he was not only forcibly called but tried to resist his calling).

As to what a cleric should be like, that is setting, deity, alignment and background dependant. I dislike ascribing pious as a quality to a cleric in the d&d multiverse. I'm sure there are deities who like it that way or have a particular outlook on the definition of the word. A pious chapeaux of st cuthebert should give a sermon a day at least (hellfire speeches are popular), they should also be prepared to out shout or rough up other preachers so that the good word of St Cuthbert can be heard by all. At the same time they should also share food with those who listen and help out in the community as best they can.

I am also a firm believer that you should encourage your players to roleplay but never force it on them. You yourself may find it boring (I'm with you, I've been there with players many a time) but if they are enjoying what they are doing then there is no need to rock the boat. A way to gently push a player to explore their character for example would be to read up on their deities' holy days and incorporate them into the campaign. Start out small and test the waters. If they begin to get into their character more then that is great, mission accomplished. If they are resistant to the idea (such as they just felt like playing the mechanics of a cleric because it looked interesting, or they are after the aesthetics of clerics but not really super into playing out the more cleric-y parts) then that is the end of the matter.

[HammeredWharf]

Generally, it's a good idea to create a character first and assign her a deity later on, unless the deity is very important backstory wise. That way, the character will naturally engage in activities her deity likes, be they heartfelt prayers or crushing skulls.

[Comet]

If you make interesting NPCs, locations and gods and play them out in front of the player they're probably going to get into that fiction and find fun in participating.

Clerics aren't that amazing in and on itself. No need to attach any specific pressure to players who want to play one. Either let them find their own groove without homework or, if you're set on demanding they have a specific kind of fun at your table, make sure every class has one of these challenges attached to it. No need to pick on the poor cleric.

[Pinjata]

A way to gently push a player to explore their character for example would be to read up on their deities' holy days and incorporate them into the campaign. Start out small and test the waters.


If you make interesting NPCs, locations and gods and play them out in front of the player they're probably going to get into that fiction and find fun in participating.


I think this also hits very close to home regarding my faults. How should I incorporate hmmm ... this clerical feel in my campaigns? Holy days are already a great idea.

[goto124]

I find that the issue here is typing mechanics to roleplay. This player just wants the mechanics of a cleric, which he finds neat. Why should "casting spells prepped in the morning", "[special kind of attack] with his hammer", etc have to come with acting like a 'pious cleric'?

[Pinjata]

I find that the issue here is typing mechanics to roleplay. This player just wants the mechanics of a cleric, which he finds neat. Why should "casting spells prepped in the morning", "[special kind of attack] with his hammer", etc have to come with acting like a 'pious cleric'?
It has been answered. Read up the thread.

[wumpus]

How about it just being a job (of course *why* you would want to have your fantasy alter-ego having "just a job" will probably sink this, but anyway...)

Historically, plenty of people were packed off to be priests, nuns, monks because it was convenient for the family. In D&D terms, I'd expect their rituals and spells to work as well as any other n-level cleric (ignore the issue that some places (5e PH?) it claims that most clergy lack cleric levels (and favored souls are vastly more rare)).

I think the relation between the god and his vassal-cleric should be absolutely critical to play of a cleric (especially for campaigns of a medieval or darker age where vassal/thane roles are huge). On the other hand, it isn't exactly clear *why* a god has to be a fully stated humanoid. In many systems, a god *is* his domain. A pyromancer/sorcerer may well be a better servant to the god of fire than any cleric. If you declare a god of any standard domain (life, war, good), just playing a cleric with those goals should be enough.

Finally, I'd expect most games where a player isn't interested in role-playing enough to have a god, I'd expect you could just play things for laughs. Pray to Pun-Pun, god of munchkins*. Standard prayer "oh Pun-pun, let us kill them and take their loot. Amen."

* note: yes, I'm mixing three different playstyles (beer and pretzels, munchkin, optimizer) that aren't necessarily related. Change the name (but not the prayer) if this might offend.

[Nicodiemus]

I've always seen clerics as the "Arm of (insert diety name here)". Not every second son who joins the clergy becomes a cleric. Many are just priests or laypersons. All PCs are special.... above the norm. As for piety, that can be fluffed. I've played a reluctant cleric, grumbling about always having to galavant around saving the faithless from certain doom. He was a party favorite. And it took them far too long to to get the pun: Fr. Deggs.... Hammon Deggs. ;-)

[Wymmerdann]

I'm currently playing an Oathbreaker Paladin who's taken up the cause of Hextor and is doing his best to seed a militant religious movement in a setting with very decentralised religious authority. I probably play up the religious overtones of my character more than most divinely powered characters, and certainly more than any should be expected to. Even so, I heartily disagree with the spirit of the original post.

Some editions of the Forgotten Realms used the Gods Need Prayer Badly mechanic [prayers powering the divine] but not all or even most of the D&D setting do, to me understanding. It is certainly the case that even those settings that do use this trope use the aggregate power of collected prayers as a central pool [generally routed through the gods or the upper planes] from which the powers of Divine prayers is granted. It is not some crazy 1 like=1 prayer scenario as one of the earlier posts seemed to suggest. This transactional approach to the divine is frankly a little demeaning to their role in most settings. I do not believe any such mechanic is in the 5e core books.

Frankly I think you're over-reading the text to claim to support a ruling that the cleric should lose their powers based on the player's style of roleplaying [which admittedly seems to favour the mechanics of the game, rather than the flavour of the class]. In an edition that has continued to tone down the falling mechainic for Paladins, to try and insert such a mechanic into the Cleric class based on little more than fluff is frankly a little obtuse. Punishing characters for the decision they make is plausibly good DM'ing. Punishing players for their [dis]engagement with your setting is not. If you don't like a player's style of play, have a chat with them, don't whack them with your DM hammer [and I know you've declared you won't, but this is why you shouldn't].

Frankly, the impiety, hypocrisy and enduring authority and power of clerics despite it all might make for a more immersive setting than anything else. Read religious texts like the Psalms and you'll find great examples of faithful men struggling with the apparent capriciousness of an amoral world, which rewards the evil and impious with power and privilege, and yet retaining their faith despite it.

[LordVonDerp]

As you would have seen, if you took a look at the title of the thread, this is 5e question.

As for 5e:
"The gods don’t grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling."

... and since I as a DM and unable to FORCE my player into high calling and dedication, instead of say, spending all money on hookers and blow, the only way to reduce this is to take his powers away. Why waste powers on some regular murderhobo if you are a god?

I'm not saying I'd do this, but by rules, you only get the powers if you are sort of Joan Of Arc. If you stop being that, if this is all your background that you completelly ignore over the sesions, then you should lose your powers.

Thoros of Myr would like a word with you.

[Millstone85]

Some players might actually want to roleplay a character having holy powers stripped from them, or a partial loss of that magic, or a meeting with a disapproving angel, or the feeling of a disturbance in the character's connection to the divine, or any such trouble a wizard wouldn't have to struggle with. Perhaps it is one of the reasons they decided to play a cleric rather than a boring wizard? And if "I prepare these new spells in the morning" doesn't get any reaction from the DM, no "A sense of great purpose fills your soul as the spells take form in your mind" or "You recoil at divine wrath before receiving a reluctant blessing of magic", then the player might think it is the DM who doesn't want to bother with such things.

[Vogonjeltz]

Thoros of Myr would like a word with you.

Essentially this. Bring a cleric just means that you are the designated grand prize winner of the deity power granting lottery.

Do you have to even be a 'good' believer or follower? Heck no! Being a priest of whomever is a background choice (Acolyte) not a class choice.

[Keltest]

Essentially this. Bring a cleric just means that you are the designated grand prize winner of the deity power granting lottery.

Do you have to even be a 'good' believer or follower? Heck no! Being a priest of whomever is a background choice (Acolyte) not a class choice.

Doesn't your choice of deity (or non-deity substitute) determine what domain spells you get though?

[Laserlight]

In my campaign, set in Central America AD1600, things have taken a somewhat Solomon Kane-esque turn. The characters have come to the disturbing realization that there really are supernatural forces acting in the New World. Two of them have--entirely on their own, without my prompting--completely reassessed their lives and decided to get serious about religion. They are going to confession and trying to reconsecrate a ruined church. The hardbitten soldier, who speaks Latin, is going to get ordained as a priest (ie multiclass cleric); the rogue is going to multiclass paladin. As the DM, I'm quite pleased with the RP they're both doing.

On the other hand, the "monk" character is entirely refluffed as "bravo at an illegal fencing school".

And I can entirely see a character concept along the lines of "Chaac the god of storm has granted you the powers of the tempest. For reasons of his own, he's made you his champion, whether you want to be or not. No, sorry, being a dissolute degenerate scum won't make those powers go away, no matter how hard you try."

[LordVonDerp]

Doesn't your choice of deity (or non-deity substitute) determine what domain spells you get though?

Each Deity would have multiple domains to choose from.

[Keltest]

Each Deity would have multiple domains to choose from.

Even so, not every deity has every domain.

[Spore]

I guess god of philosophy grants you powers then. IF you are chosen for "a high calling". No god of philosophy = no powers. No high calling = no powers.

Also I think in D&D prayers give power to gods. No prayers = dead god. So if you do not pray, there is exactly 0 reason to get anything in this case.

Disclaimer: I do not intend to do this in my game, but I find reasoning faulty per Core books 5e.

I thank you for your point of view but I feel insulted by your lack of acceptance for other people's viewpoints. I will do precisely what my group and I accept in our games, and I really don't care if even the DM in question finds my character believable as long as I do. He or she can convince me otherwise but as long as it stands I can play a cleric of my chosen philosophy, say: "Peace is the only long term solution" and have him not pray to any gods during spell preparation.

And yes, I fully expect my spells to work without the reverance of any random god that happens to have peace or philosophy on their portfolio.

[LordVonDerp]

Even so, not every deity has every domain.

And? That doesn't change the fact that domain, not deity, determines domain spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

I fully expect my spells to work without the reverance of any random god that happens to have peace or philosophy on their portfolio.
It seems that in a world where gods and deities and magic actually exist, you don't want to play along with the alternate reality, even though it is explicitly stated in the book? From the class description:

As a conduit for divine power, you can cast cleric spells.

Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity.

Channel Divinity
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to channel divine energy directly from your deity, using that energy to fuel magical effects. Deity. That's a noun, not an abstraction.

Fantasy Role Playing. It's a kind of game. Try it sometime.

In your defense, I can see you and the DM re-skinning it as something like psionic power, which is internal to the user, rather than magic, which is external to it under the FR/5e/canonical setting (see the Weave) and making it all work out just fine.

[LordVonDerp]

It seems that in a world where gods and deities and magic actually exist, you don't want to play along with the alternate reality, even though it is explicitly stated in the book? From the class description:


Deity. That's a noun, not an abstraction.

Fantasy Role Playing. It's a kind of game. Try it sometime.

In your defense, I can see you and the DM re-skinning it as something like psionic power, which is internal to the user, rather than magic, which is external to it under the FR/5e/canonical setting (see the Weave) and making it all work out just fine.

On the other hand, no where is it stated that having a deity is actually a requirement for playing a cleric.

[Keltest]

On the other hand, no where is it stated that having a deity is actually a requirement for playing a cleric.

Indeed, however even non-theistic clerics must actually worship/have faith in something, whether it be a cause, a philosophy, or an elemental plane.

[Millstone85]

And yes, I fully expect my spells to work without the reverance of any random god that happens to have peace or philosophy on their portfolio.It seems that in a world where gods and deities and magic actually exist, you don't want to play along with the alternate reality, even though it is explicitly stated in the book?The book has more than one alternate reality to offer, though.

Forces and Philosophies

Not all divine powers need to be derived from deities. In some campaigns, believers hold enough conviction in their ideas about the universe that they gain magical power from that conviction. In other campaigns, impersonal forces of nature or magic replace the gods by granting power to mortals attuned to them. Just as druids and rangers can gain their spell ability from the force of nature rather than from a specific nature deity, some clerics devote themselves to ideals rather than to a god. Paladins might serve a philosophy of justice and chivalry rather than a specific deity.

Forces and philosophies aren't worshiped; they aren't beings that can hear and respond to prayers or accept sacrifices. Devotion to a philosophy or a force isn't necessarily exclusive of service to a deity. A person can be devoted to the philosophy of good and offer worship to various good deities, or revere the force of nature and also pay homage to the gods of nature, who might be seen as personal manifestations of an impersonal force. In a world that includes deities with demonstrable power (through their clerics), it's unusual for a philosophy to deny the existence of deities, although a common philosophical belief states that the deities are more like mortals than they would have mortals believe. According to such philosophies, the gods aren't truly immortal (just very long-lived), and mortals can attain divinity. In fact, ascending to godhood is the ultimate goal of some philosophies.

The power of a philosophy stems from the belief that mortals invest in it. A philosophy that only one person believes in isn't strong enough to bestow magical power on that person.

[KorvinStarmast]

The book has more than one alternate reality to offer, though.
D&D 5e DMG page 13
Fair point. (Also to LordVonDerp and Keltest).