3.5 Ninja

[Chester]

Hello. I'm playing with the idea of a Ninja build.

Yes, I am aware that the Ninja is not a powerful class. However, I like Ghost Step and Poison Use. Speed Climbing looks cool, but then I'd have to take a full seven levels.

I feel like the obvious route is to mix with Rogue and perhaps pick up some arcane magic. However, with a focus on wisdom, I like the idea of a Cleric mix.

Anyway, has anyone had any experience playing a Ninja? What works, what doesn't, etc?

[bjoern]

One of our group members is playing a ninja. Ghost step and sudden strike is cool. If the enemy has blind sight or see invisible its a show stopper though.

[The Viscount]

If Ghost Step, Speed climbing, and poison use are what interest you, you can obtain them easily enough through other means.

Invisible Fist at 2 for monk has unlimited use invisibility for 1 round every 3 rounds, and is an immediate instead of a swift.

Rogue gets poison use at 1 if you trade in trapfinding (assuming your DM doesn't read the ACF as drow only).

Climb speed is slightly more difficult, but 3 levels of scout with the PHB2 ACF gets you an always on climb speed, so you don't have to end on horizontal surfaces, and you don't lose Dex while climbing.

[Troacctid]

Jungle Halflings and Warforged have poison use as a racial trait. A level of Warlock gets you at-will Spider Climb.

[mabriss lethe]

You can also get the Master of Poisons feat in Drow of the Underdark. It has no prereqs, and is basically "poison use+" all of the benefits of poison use, plus you get the ability to apply a poison or oil to a weapon as a swift action.

EDIT TO ADD: Ok, there is one slight drawback, in that MoP does not technically count as the Poison Use ability for the purposes of Prerequisites. If that crops up, see if you can get your DM to hand wave it as counting. (Though I honestly can't think of anything worthwhile that has PU as a prerequisite.)

[Troacctid]

You can already apply poison as a swift action with an alchemical weapon chamber though. It's only a couple hundred gp to hold three doses.

[mabriss lethe]

You can already apply poison as a swift action with an alchemical weapon chamber though. It's only a couple hundred gp to hold three doses.

But you're limited to whatever happens to be loaded in the chamber. Half of being a decent poisoner is being able to customize your payload for whatever threat you face. Including applying positoxins or ravages when faced with some of your nastier poison-immune enemies, or being able to apply a magic oil if you happen to have an appropriate one when none of your poisons will do.

Of course, poison in general is not exactly a high level or high op strategy.

[Ger. Bessa]

A bit of psionics (for psionic focus) and wall climbing is now just a feat. Psionic minor creation is a classic to get poison without spending WBL, and you can get both with the feats hidden talent + up the walls. Or you can use a bit of psionic classes and fluff the powers as ninjutsu.

[Cerefel]

There's also a monk ACF in dungeonscape that trades slow fall for the ability to run up walls at level 4+

[nedz]

Ninja 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10 is the obvious build, using an Int and Wis focus to pick up some Arcane Disciple picks.

There's not much use for the Ki pool though, unless you grab some of the Dragon Magazine Ninja feats.

Grab Distract Assailant as your Advanced Learning at Beguiler 3 to activate Sudden Strike more reliably.

[Chester]

If the enemy has blind sight or see invisible its a show stopper though. I'm pretty sure there's a feat in Lords of Madness that lets you be invisible to blindsight and the like.


Ninja 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10 is the obvious build, using an Int and Wis focus to pick up some Arcane Disciple picks.

Yeah, I like the Beguiler synergy. I'm looking into that, thanks!

[The Viscount]

I'm pretty sure there's a feat in Lords of Madness that lets you be invisible to blindsight and the like.


Yes and no. Darkstalker is the feat that you are speaking of, and it means that when you are hiding, enemies with blindsight, tremorsense, blindsense, and (most commonly) scent must still make listen or spot checks to find you. You still have to make the hide check. Whether or not invisibility gives you the +20 to your hide is a question it doesn't really answer, and it's worth asking your DM.

[nedz]

Yeah, I like the Beguiler synergy. I'm looking into that, thanks!

There are a couple of variants to consider.

Ninja 1 / Warlock 1 / Beguiler 3 / Unseen Seer 10 (Advancing Beguiler)
Warlock is to enable a ranged touch magical vehicle for your Sudden Strike.
You can also grab a least invocation: Eldritch Glaive (for reach and melee), Beguiling influence, See the Unseen, Spiderwalk, All Seeing Eyes (probably my choice)
You do lose another caster level however.

Ninja 1 / Warlock 3 / Beguiler 1 / Unseen Seer 10 (Advancing Warlock)
Beguiler 1 gets you into Unseen Seer.
This is probably not what you want, but it's a good Warlock build.

[Warlocknthewind]

One level of Binder.
One feat, Improved Binding.
One Vestige, Malphas.

Congratulations, you are a better ninja now, than the entirety of the base class Ninja.

I find this sad, and give any players playing ninja much much more ki but that doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

If you staying Ninja, bad want some casting, I recommend Spirit Shaman, as their class abilities are consistent with the Ninjas, Wise based, and fluffy.

[Zaq]

I remember once having a discussion with my friends where we came to the conclusion that the Ninja class (note the capitalization) is basically the worst skillful class (meaning a base class with 6+INT skills or better) at being a ninja (note the capitalization). I don't recall the specific arguments we ended up making for every single class, but there's basically nothing the Ninja gets that can't be duplicated or done better by something else with less effort. (I also don't remember if we included the Expert, but still, it's pretty bad when I genuinely can't remember if a PC class was or wasn't better than the corresponding NPC class.)

Part of the Ninja's problem, of course, is that their resources are super limited. There's a very narrow level range where Ghost Step and Sudden Strike actually work together and usefully get you through the adventuring day—at low levels, you don't have enough uses of Ghost Step to last all day, and at mid-high levels, half the stuff you fight can see invisible stuff (or is otherwise immune to Sudden Strike), and since you can't just fall back on flanking like you can with Sneak Attack, there's a good chance that you're going to end up useless a large chunk of the time.

They have many other issues, of course, including the same AC problem as the Monk (adding WIS to unarmored AC is just flat out worse than wearing armor, with the possible exception being a Druid who can dump their physical stats and just pump the hell out of WIS, but that doesn't help someone actually playing a Monk or actually playing a Ninja). I don't have an easy fix for the Ninja; I like the concept of a precision-damage-using class being able to go invisible to activate their precision damage, and I understand that granting their invisibility at-will or nearly at-will is effectively saying "free 50% miss chance and free precision damage forever," which goes against the design principles of the game, but the Ninja as printed isn't really functional, since they basically only get one trick (and there are many ways that one trick can get messed up). I mean, turning Sudden Strike into Sneak Attack (there's no reason for the obvious downgrade) is a small help, but even with that houserule in place, I'd still rather just be a Rogue (or, better yet, a PsyRogue—we won't even get into the Swordsage).

If you can somehow finagle having enough uses of Ghost Step to get you through an adventuring day (and you're not fighting a ton of things who can see through it), the Ninja can do the whole "SA/SS-using archer" thing a little bit easier than a Rogue can (it's hard for a normal ranged Rogue to get SA after turn 1; they need something like HiPS, a way to force Balancing, or their own source of Invisibility/Blink/whatever, none of which they actually get in-class), but that's still dependent on getting lots of Ghost Step uses and still has lots of other problems.

If you're going to heavily multiclass, I honestly question why you're bothering with Ninja levels at all. (Remember that you get Ghost Step at second level; a single level in Ninja doesn't get you their iconic ability, so if you just want a bunch of skill points and a die of precision damage in exchange for one level, you're better off dipping Rogue.) I guess someone who's primarily a Cleric but who has 2 levels in Ninja for Ghost Step can benefit from having a handful of uses of swift-action invisibility per day, but without more than 1d6 precision damage, there's not a really compelling reason why access to invisibility is worth giving up an entire level of spells (and while you'll probably have high WIS, you're still giving up a lot by going unarmored—and remember that Ghost Step only works when unarmored). Same with the Druid—Wild Shape puts them in good shape to actually use the Ninja's WIS-to-AC feature, and I guess that enough levels of Druid is going to be strong enough to overcome starting at a small disadvantage, but I still don't think that you're getting enough to make up for losing a new spell level. Unseen Seer is a strong class, but it doesn't make any noticeable difference to enter as a Ninja instead of as a Rogue or something similar.

I mean, if you're intentionally making a low-powered character, you could do worse than the Ninja. (The Ninja might only have one trick and that trick might be easily foiled, but at least they do have a clear trick, unlike, say, the Soulknife or the Samurai.) You'll need good stats (you're about as MAD as the Monk is, and arguably worse, since you need WIS for more than the Monk does, and you need more INT for your skill points), you'll need a GM who isn't going to send you against a ton of monsters immune to your main trick (whether because they can see through invisibility or because they're otherwise immune to precision damage), and you'll need to accept that your main combat style just plain isn't always going to work. As has been mentioned, a two-level dip in Monk for access to Invisible Fist can help stretch your uses of Ghost Step (getting what amounts to a free Ghost Step at least once per encounter, if not twice per encounter, is definitely helpful); it's almost always worth it on a build that's primarily Ninja, but it's probably not worth it on a build that's primarily Unseen Seer or Cleric or whatever. Since the Ninja's combat ability is so narrowly defined, you might have to rely on some out-of-combat utility to have fun, but thankfully, you do have a decent number of skill points (even though you likely can't afford a very high INT).

If you're okay with a character who isn't very versatile or very robust, you can probably have fun by just diving in and seeing what you can do, but if you're concerned about keeping up with the power level of your group, I don't think the Ninja offers enough optimization potential to really shine. (A casting build like a Cleric, a Druid, or an Unseen Seer can survive having a couple Ninja levels, but you're still going to always be weaker than if you didn't have the Ninja levels, and more importantly, since most of the power of those builds comes from the non-Ninja sources, you won't feel that much like a Ninja.) I can't tell you for certain if you'll be able to make it work in your specific group with your specific GM, but whatever you do, I wouldn't half-ass it. Either go whole hog and see just how much of a Ninja you can be or figure out what you like about the Ninja and try to replicate it with stronger classes.

[Troacctid]

I remember once having a discussion with my friends where we came to the conclusion that the Ninja class (note the capitalization) is basically the worst skillful class (meaning a base class with 6+INT skills or better) at being a ninja (note the capitalization). I don't recall the specific arguments we ended up making for every single class, but there's basically nothing the Ninja gets that can't be duplicated or done better by something else with less effort. (I also don't remember if we included the Expert, but still, it's pretty bad when I genuinely can't remember if a PC class was or wasn't better than the corresponding NPC class.)

They're better at it than Bards. Bards have crap for damage, so they're pretty poor assassins, and they can't strike silently from the shadows because everything they do makes noise.

Savants also don't really have any class features to support ninja-ing besides class skills and a few pitiful sneak attack dice, so they're not really great at being a ninja either.

Experts obviously fail since they're, like, just strictly worse.

[HolyDraconus]

They're better at it than Bards. Bards have crap for damage, so they're pretty poor assassins, and they can't strike silently from the shadows because everything they do makes noise.

Savants also don't really have any class features to support ninja-ing besides class skills and a few pitiful sneak attack dice, so they're not really great at being a ninja either.

Experts obviously fail since they're, like, just strictly worse.
No actuallt, they are not better than Bards. Silent spell is a thing, and sonic damage is hard to resist. Plus they have options for dealing with ss/sa immune creatures built in house. Worse, they are usually cha based so diplomancy can become a real thing alot easier. Illusions are also on the table, as is flat out shadow spells. I rather make a superior dancing bard sneak then a ninja.

[Troacctid]

Silent spell is a thing

Not for Bards.


Special: Bard spells cannot be enhanced by this metamagic feat.

And bardic music always makes noise--you can't activate it by dancing.

[Cerefel]

And bardic music always makes noise--you can't activate it by dancing.

It is possible to get around this with the subsonics feat, making it possible to build a bard for stealth reasonably well (compared to ninja).

[BilltheCynic]

Do you have access to ToB? If so, I suggest playing a swordsage and just saying you're a ninja. Swordsages can do pretty much everything a ninja can, except better. You get:


Wis to AC and you can still wear light armor
Wall climbing 24/7
Swift Action invisibility that can be used all day (at the cost of a full round action to refresh)
Dex to damage with a feat, reducing MAD
Jump as a swift action
Ninja teleport
Save-or-die attacks
Strength draining attacks
Small Sneak attack
Evasion 3 levels earlier than Ninja

And much, much more. Pretty much the only things you don't get are poison use (which you can get from a feat) and trapfinding (dip rogue). The best part is that Swordsage is both an excellent dip and a great full level class.

Obligatory plug to handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259783-3-5-Swordsage-Handbook-This-one-ll-walk-the-whole-Way-WIP-PEACH)

[Chester]

Unfortunately, ToB is frowned upon in my group. :small frown:

No matter, though. I've taken into consideration the universal hatred for Ninja, and thought that with Unseen Seer and Beguiler or the like, I can build something more fun. I think I'll try Spellthief 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer X / ??. Taking Master Spellthief feat, I can do some cool tricks, and despite the loss of Ghost Step, this makes for a fun roguish spell caster.

[nedz]

Unfortunately, ToB is frowned upon in my group. :small frown:

No matter, though. I've taken into consideration the universal hatred for Ninja, and thought that with Unseen Seer and Beguiler or the like, I can build something more fun. I think I'll try Spellthief 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer X / ??. Taking Master Spellthief feat, I can do some cool tricks, and despite the loss of Ghost Step, this makes for a fun roguish spell caster.

The two standard options for the first level are Spellthief or Changeling Rogue.

Spellthief is good, but even with Master Spellthief you are limited in the spell levels you can hold by your Spellthief level, which would be 1 in this case. Godsblood Spellthief (Web) is an interesting feat, but you are probably better off grabbing more Arcane Disciples picks which have a similar function.

Changeling Rogue opens the racial ACF, which gives 10 skill points (for only the subs levels, though that includes 1st) as well as the Social stuff (Take 10 on social skills).

[WeaselGuy]

Out of curiosity, is there any way to synergize a Ninja with an Ur-Priest, for more of a divine-stealth-gish build? You would have the Wisdom synergy...

[Solidarity]

I remember once having a discussion with my friends where we came to the conclusion that the Ninja class (note the capitalization) is basically the worst skillful class (meaning a base class with 6+INT skills or better) at being a ninja (note the capitalization). I don't recall the specific arguments we ended up making for every single class, but there's basically nothing the Ninja gets that can't be duplicated or done better by something else with less effort. (I also don't remember if we included the Expert, but still, it's pretty bad when I genuinely can't remember if a PC class was or wasn't better than the corresponding NPC class.)

Part of the Ninja's problem, of course, is that their resources are super limited. There's a very narrow level range where Ghost Step and Sudden Strike actually work together and usefully get you through the adventuring day—at low levels, you don't have enough uses of Ghost Step to last all day, and at mid-high levels, half the stuff you fight can see invisible stuff (or is otherwise immune to Sudden Strike), and since you can't just fall back on flanking like you can with Sneak Attack, there's a good chance that you're going to end up useless a large chunk of the time.

They have many other issues, of course, including the same AC problem as the Monk (adding WIS to unarmored AC is just flat out worse than wearing armor, with the possible exception being a Druid who can dump their physical stats and just pump the hell out of WIS, but that doesn't help someone actually playing a Monk or actually playing a Ninja). I don't have an easy fix for the Ninja; I like the concept of a precision-damage-using class being able to go invisible to activate their precision damage, and I understand that granting their invisibility at-will or nearly at-will is effectively saying "free 50% miss chance and free precision damage forever," which goes against the design principles of the game, but the Ninja as printed isn't really functional, since they basically only get one trick (and there are many ways that one trick can get messed up). I mean, turning Sudden Strike into Sneak Attack (there's no reason for the obvious downgrade) is a small help, but even with that houserule in place, I'd still rather just be a Rogue (or, better yet, a PsyRogue—we won't even get into the Swordsage).

If you can somehow finagle having enough uses of Ghost Step to get you through an adventuring day (and you're not fighting a ton of things who can see through it), the Ninja can do the whole "SA/SS-using archer" thing a little bit easier than a Rogue can (it's hard for a normal ranged Rogue to get SA after turn 1; they need something like HiPS, a way to force Balancing, or their own source of Invisibility/Blink/whatever, none of which they actually get in-class), but that's still dependent on getting lots of Ghost Step uses and still has lots of other problems.

If you're going to heavily multiclass, I honestly question why you're bothering with Ninja levels at all. (Remember that you get Ghost Step at second level; a single level in Ninja doesn't get you their iconic ability, so if you just want a bunch of skill points and a die of precision damage in exchange for one level, you're better off dipping Rogue.) I guess someone who's primarily a Cleric but who has 2 levels in Ninja for Ghost Step can benefit from having a handful of uses of swift-action invisibility per day, but without more than 1d6 precision damage, there's not a really compelling reason why access to invisibility is worth giving up an entire level of spells (and while you'll probably have high WIS, you're still giving up a lot by going unarmored—and remember that Ghost Step only works when unarmored). Same with the Druid—Wild Shape puts them in good shape to actually use the Ninja's WIS-to-AC feature, and I guess that enough levels of Druid is going to be strong enough to overcome starting at a small disadvantage, but I still don't think that you're getting enough to make up for losing a new spell level. Unseen Seer is a strong class, but it doesn't make any noticeable difference to enter as a Ninja instead of as a Rogue or something similar.

I mean, if you're intentionally making a low-powered character, you could do worse than the Ninja. (The Ninja might only have one trick and that trick might be easily foiled, but at least they do have a clear trick, unlike, say, the Soulknife or the Samurai.) You'll need good stats (you're about as MAD as the Monk is, and arguably worse, since you need WIS for more than the Monk does, and you need more INT for your skill points), you'll need a GM who isn't going to send you against a ton of monsters immune to your main trick (whether because they can see through invisibility or because they're otherwise immune to precision damage), and you'll need to accept that your main combat style just plain isn't always going to work. As has been mentioned, a two-level dip in Monk for access to Invisible Fist can help stretch your uses of Ghost Step (getting what amounts to a free Ghost Step at least once per encounter, if not twice per encounter, is definitely helpful); it's almost always worth it on a build that's primarily Ninja, but it's probably not worth it on a build that's primarily Unseen Seer or Cleric or whatever. Since the Ninja's combat ability is so narrowly defined, you might have to rely on some out-of-combat utility to have fun, but thankfully, you do have a decent number of skill points (even though you likely can't afford a very high INT).

If you're okay with a character who isn't very versatile or very robust, you can probably have fun by just diving in and seeing what you can do, but if you're concerned about keeping up with the power level of your group, I don't think the Ninja offers enough optimization potential to really shine. (A casting build like a Cleric, a Druid, or an Unseen Seer can survive having a couple Ninja levels, but you're still going to always be weaker than if you didn't have the Ninja levels, and more importantly, since most of the power of those builds comes from the non-Ninja sources, you won't feel that much like a Ninja.) I can't tell you for certain if you'll be able to make it work in your specific group with your specific GM, but whatever you do, I wouldn't half-ass it. Either go whole hog and see just how much of a Ninja you can be or figure out what you like about the Ninja and try to replicate it with stronger classes.

You're forgetting that if the DM allows Dragon Magazine at all, there are a good handful more uses for ki points then just class featured abilities. Issues 351 and 342 introduce a variety of pretty balanced and very fun abilities. Karmic Healing and Ki Smite being my favorites, I became essentially a squire to a paladin with my ninja, and treated him as my "feudal lord" type that the class calls for. There are abilities that fit in most archetypes and do well to compliment the ninja's basic abilities.

In addition, once you hit high enough level for speed climb, there are many different wacky things you can pull in game, as long as you're imaginative.