Help designing pre-build PC for my gaming group.

[Petrocorus]

Hello everyone.
I'm starting to dm 5E for initiating teenagers to RPG at my FLGS. In order to help the process, i want to pre-build the PC for the first adventures but my system mastery is still much lacking, so, i would need some help. We start at level 1.

One of the PC will be a human ranged attack rogue, should i tried to get a long bow proficiency or focus on crossbow? To get the proficiency, should i use the Weapon Master feat or plan a dip into Fighter? Or something else? Should i plan a dip into fighter even with the focus on crossbow? Should i take the Shapshooter feat at first or wait for later level?

For the same PC, what should be her Expertise? Stealth and Perception? Thief's tools?

Another PC will be a human Paladin. I'm still not sure about the style of combat, SoB or THF? Is one more optimised than the other? For a Paladin, should i take the normal human or variant human?

Thank you.

[ZenBear]

Rogues make excellent use of the crossbow, but if you want you could roll it up as a Wood Elf for longbow proficiency and some other nice perks. Stealth and Perception are the best skills to be an Expert in from a strictly meta mechanics point of view. Stealth/Thieves Tools is fine if you want to be the typical Thief Rogue. Sharpshooter is an excellent Feat choice, or if you want to lean into the scout role either Alert or Skulker will work too. If you plan on throwing a lot of traps their way, giving the Rogue Dungeon Delver will go a long way to helping the party stay alive and making the Rogue feel like an essential part of the team.

The Paladin doesn't pick a fighting style until level 2 so let the player decide what weapon they want. The Feat is the important part. Heavy Armor Master is amazing at low levels, and I suspect your game won't last past 5-10 so it won't lose its efficacy. Another option is Inspiring Leader to make everyone tougher and your Paladin really shine as the team leader, or Sentinel to make them a true tank protecting their party.

The other classes should be a Cleric and one of the many arcane classes. Life Cleric and Evocation Wizard are the standard choices, but if you want to be more unique there are a plethora of fun options available to you. Go nuts!

[Ninja_Prawn]

You've got a lot of options and there aren't any real traps... I'd strongly advise asking the players what they want to play and then build accordingly.

A wood elf rogue with a longbow pretty much builds itself... stealth is your first pick for expertise, then whatever. Perception, acrobatics, insight, persuasion could all be useful depending on what sort of game you're playing.

I'm a fan of sword & board paladins with the duelling fighting style. With divine smite and sacred weapon (from the oath of devotion), your damage output is frightening, and you don't have to skimp of defense.

To be honest, those two characters alone would be an effective team - the rogue gets sneak attack against anyone who's in melee with the paladin, and the paladin has some healing powers to patch them up afterwards. It might be lacking a bit of support magic... though you could ameliorate that with a ritual casting arcane trickster...

Actually, I might have to set up a two-PC game based on that premise... a straight-laced paladin and a skeevy rogue take on the world!

[Foxhound438]

have the rogue take expertise in stealth and slight of hands, since those are your typical rogue tasks. Crossbow is actually fine for rogues. Mostly for rogue make sure they know how their sneak attack works, and let the dice do the heavy lifting. Skulker is probably the best feat here, if not sharpshooter. Make sure to determine whether they want to be arcane tricksters before you nail down stats, since with it they would want int, and without it they probably could dump it for the most part.

Pal has a lot of fine approaches, probably ask what oath they want. Ancients is a tanking specialty, so shield master or tough are both valid options there, and probably encourage going s&b. At that point any of the three non GWF fighting styles would work fine for their own reasons. Vengeance on the other hand is probably best off going GWF and taking either great weapon master or polearm master as their level one feat. Devotion is another case of Great Weapon Master shining, since the channel divinity gives enough bonus to attack rolls to hit with it consistently.

[bid]

One of the PC will be a human ranged attack rogue, should i tried to get a long bow proficiency or focus on crossbow?
Shortbow is good enough. Don't bother with feat or expertise initially.

Use defense style for the paladin with a polearm. It's easier to hide it in AC than having the player remember gwf or duel every attack.

Once the first session is over, speak with them and adjust the characters accordingly. They will want to customize them.

[Nicodiemus]

One of my favorite DMs started the party off as zero level characters. Maybe just assign stats and give them a background. Then design an opening adventure that concluded with them choosing their hero's path. Teens that get into RP tend to be readers anyway, so most will end up dissecting the PHB and will figure out how they want their characters to grow. Good luck!

[KorvinStarmast]

Hello everyone.
I'm starting to dm 5E for initiating teenagers to RPG at my FLGS. In order to help the process, i want to pre-build the PC for the first adventures but my system mastery is still much lacking, so, i would need some help. We start at level 1.

One of the PC will be a human ranged attack rogue, should i tried to get a long bow proficiency or focus on crossbow? To get the proficiency, should i use the Weapon Master feat or plan a dip into Fighter? Or something else? Should i plan a dip into fighter even with the focus on crossbow? Should i take the Shapshooter feat at first or wait for later level?

For the same PC, what should be her Expertise? Stealth and Perception? Thief's tools?

Another PC will be a human Paladin. I'm still not sure about the style of combat, SoB or THF? Is one more optimised than the other? For a Paladin, should i take the normal human or variant human?

Thank you.
You can also take a look at the pregenerated characters that (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/character_sheets) Wizards of the Coast has at their web site.
Might give you some ideas.

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/character_sheets

[mgshamster]

You can also take a look at the pregenerated characters that (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/character_sheets) Wizards of the Coast has at their web site.
Might give you some ideas.

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/character_sheets

That's what I was going to suggest. They have a build for every class & archetype at every level. It's a good source.

When I first got into 5e, we did a premade module using pre generated characters at level 10. We just picked characters at random and when one died, we just grabbed another from the pile. It worked really well, and we had no major hiccups.

I recommend the pregens.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Hello everyone.
I'm starting to dm 5E for initiating teenagers to RPG at my FLGS. In order to help the process, i want to pre-build the PC for the first adventures but my system mastery is still much lacking, so, i would need some help. We start at level 1.

One of the PC will be a human ranged attack rogue, should i tried to get a long bow proficiency or focus on crossbow? To get the proficiency, should i use the Weapon Master feat or plan a dip into Fighter? Or something else? Should i plan a dip into fighter even with the focus on crossbow? Should i take the Shapshooter feat at first or wait for later level?

For the same PC, what should be her Expertise? Stealth and Perception? Thief's tools?

Another PC will be a human Paladin. I'm still not sure about the style of combat, SoB or THF? Is one more optimised than the other? For a Paladin, should i take the normal human or variant human?

Thank you.

Don't worry about optimization.

Make multiple versions of the same character and see what the player find most fun.

Actually what I would suggest is that you give them each a level 3 fighter.

Fighter (Archer Champion)
Fighter (THF Champion)
Fighter (TWF Champion)
Fighter (Dueling Chanpion)
Fighter (Fighting Style Scout) would also work.


Let them learn the game first, let them switch builds throughout the game (not characters, just the mechanics), and let them get used to how to play the game before you throw other classes at them.

Yes other classes are cooler or better but... That isn't the point. The point is to learn the rules.

Make sure to run cover rules correctly so the Archer sees their bonus come into actual usefulness and not just "omg +2 to hit always".

I see way to many new players jumping in with the cool classes (ranger, rogue, paladin) and they get overwhelmed at level 1 because they don't know their features, intrinsic tactics, and extrinsic tactics. Fighter will help them work on that.

Unless they have prior tabletop gaming experineces.

[Petrocorus]

have the rogue take expertise in stealth and slight of hands, since those are your typical rogue tasks. Crossbow is actually fine for rogues. Mostly for rogue make sure they know how their sneak attack works, and let the dice do the heavy lifting. Skulker is probably the best feat here, if not sharpshooter. Make sure to determine whether they want to be arcane tricksters before you nail down stats, since with it they would want int, and without it they probably could dump it for the most part.

Thanks. No arcane trickster for now. They are young (12-14 yo) teenager and i will try to avoid what is may be too complex for them.


The Paladin doesn't pick a fighting style until level 2 so let the player decide what weapon they want. The Feat is the important part. Heavy Armor Master is amazing at low levels, and I suspect your game won't last past 5-10 so it won't lose its efficacy. Another option is Inspiring Leader to make everyone tougher and your Paladin really shine as the team leader, or Sentinel to make them a true tank protecting their party.

The feat is my problem, i need to chose his human bonus feat.


You can also take a look at the pregenerated characters that (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/character_sheets) Wizards of the Coast has at their web site.
Might give you some ideas.

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/character_sheets
Thank you very much.

Right now, the party for the first adventure will have:

Human rogue (ranged attack and/or trapfinder)
Halfing rogue (scout/trapfinder probably)
Wood elfe fighter (archer)
Human fighter (dual wielding)
halfling fighter (not sur how to orient him)
human pally (probably S&B, after you replies)
dwarf cleric (war or life)
high elf wizard.

You're saying Intelligence is rather a dump stat for Rogues?

[CaptAl]

You're saying Intelligence is rather a dump stat for Rogues?

Intelligence is a viable dump stat for every class that isn't a wizard. There's arguments for and against dumping Int for the rogue and fighter archeytpes Arcane Trickster, and Eldritch Knight. Mechanically speaking, there's minimal benefits to having a decent Int score.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Intelligence is a viable dump stat for every class that isn't a wizard. There's arguments for and against dumping Int for the rogue and fighter archeytpes Arcane Trickster, and Eldritch Knight. Mechanically speaking, there's minimal benefits to having a decent Int score.

Hell, I could make a viable wizard with an Int dumped stat.

[ZenBear]

Hell, I could make a viable wizard with an Int dumped stat.

Haha! Let's not rekindle that battle!:smalltongue:

I agree, INT is a dump stat. However, the DM is omnipotent, and by their will Knowledge checks can mean the difference between victory and TPK.

I suggest building at least one high INT character and making sure you reward them for successful Knowledge checks with enemy resistances, vulnerabilities, damage types, features, etc. Anything you think might be useful information.

[ZenBear]

Thanks. No arcane trickster for now. They are young (12-14 yo) teenager and i will try to avoid what is may be too complex for them.


The feat is my problem, i need to chose his human bonus feat.


Thank you very much.

Right now, the party for the first adventure will have:

Human rogue (ranged attack and/or trapfinder)
Halfing rogue (scout/trapfinder probably)
Wood elfe fighter (archer)
Human fighter (dual wielding)
halfling fighter (not sur how to orient him)
human pally (probably S&B, after you replies)
dwarf cleric (war or life)
high elf wizard.

You're saying Intelligence is rather a dump stat for Rogues?

That's quite a large cast! 8 players is tough to handle, but I've been in a 9 player party and know it can be done with grace. Make sure you give everyone time in the spotlight as best you can, and be firm with self-centered and disruptive players.

I would remove Inspiring Leader from the list now; it has a cap of 6 targets I believe. Sentinel will be very useful with so many melee warriors, and a bit easier to keep track of than Heavy Armor Master IMO.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Haha! Let's not rekindle that battle!:smalltongue:

I agree, INT is a dump stat. However, the DM is omnipotent, and by their will Knowledge checks can mean the difference between victory and TPK.

I suggest building at least one high INT character and making sure you reward them for successful Knowledge checks with enemy resistances, vulnerabilities, damage types, features, etc. Anything you think might be useful information.

What you are asking Int checks for is heading away from core rules _what to expect from game to game) and into homebrew. I wouldn't overload new players on homebrew just yet.

Knowledge checks can typically be replaced with charisma checks or common knowledge.

Damage type? Look at their weapons.
Resistances/Vulnerabilities?

Hobgoblins versus Party

Fighter: What do you think their weaknesses are?
Wizard: Let me see if I remember...
Bard: Yo, hobgoblins, what is your weakness? Rolls 16+
Hobgoblin 1: Rolls mid to low. Well we are wearing armor that can be sundered quite easily...

Hobgoblin 2 - 8: Damn it bill, not again..


A bit silly but then again that's the bard's thing.

[ZenBear]

What you are asking Int checks for is heading away from core rules _what to expect from game to game) and into homebrew. I wouldn't overload new players on homebrew just yet.

Knowledge checks can typically be replaced with charisma checks or common knowledge.

Damage type? Look at their weapons.
Resistances/Vulnerabilities?

Hobgoblins versus Party

Fighter: What do you think their weaknesses are?
Wizard: Let me see if I remember...
Bard: Yo, hobgoblins, what is your weakness? Rolls 16+
Hobgoblin 1: Rolls mid to low. Well we are wearing armor that can be sundered quite easily...

Hobgoblin 2 - 8: Damn it bill, not again..


A bit silly but then again that's the bard's thing.

Actually what you're suggesting is closer to homebrew than my suggestion. It's a common misconception, but charisma skills =/= mind control. A hostile creature will not do what you tell it to just because you rolled well on Persuasion.

In 4E it is specifically stated that a base success on a Knowledge check tells you what the creature is, its type and a few key words that define it. An exceptionally high roll tells you its resistances, vulnerabilities and powers. 5e does not specify this, but if you read the Intelligence Skills section you see a broad range of uses that even step on Charisma's toes like pulling together a disguise to pass as a city guard. More importantly, Investigate checks are specifically stated to be capable of deducing a weakness in a cave that might be exploited to cause a cave-in. Take that a step further, and accept the precedent of 4e, and discovering resistances, vulnerabilities and damage types of creatures with a pertinent Knowledge check is perfectly logical.

On that point about common sense, if the monster is a hobgoblin wielding a sword you don't need a Knowledge check to realize it will do slashing damage and it doesn't have any special vulnerabilities. However, a History check could inform you that hobgoblins are disciplined fighters, and when they fight together against the same foe they are even deadlier (the DM tells you about their Martial Advantage ability).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Actually what you're suggesting is closer to homebrew than my suggestion. It's a common misconception, but charisma skills =/= mind control. A hostile creature will not do what you tell it to just because you rolled well on Persuasion.

In 4E it is specifically stated that a base success on a Knowledge check tells you what the creature is, its type and a few key words that define it. An exceptionally high roll tells you its resistances, vulnerabilities and powers. 5e does not specify this, but if you read the Intelligence Skills section you see a broad range of uses that even step on Charisma's toes like pulling together a disguise to pass as a city guard. More importantly, Investigate checks are specifically stated to be capable of deducing a weakness in a cave that might be exploited to cause a cave-in. Take that a step further, and accept the precedent of 4e, and discovering resistances, vulnerabilities and damage types of creatures with a pertinent Knowledge check is perfectly logical.

On that point about common sense, if the monster is a hobgoblin wielding a sword you don't need a Knowledge check to realize it will do slashing damage and it doesn't have any special vulnerabilities. However, a History check could inform you that hobgoblins are disciplined fighters, and when they fight together against the same foe they are even deadlier (the DM tells you about their Martial Advantage ability).

Seriously, mind control? :smallannoyed: Yeah sure, tricking people is now mind control.

Tricking enemies with charisma is exactly what deception is about. I just gave a 2 second example, you can replace what the pc and hobgoblin said easily enough with...

Fighter: "damnit, our weapons aren't that great guys but we can do it! Let's aim for their midsection it looks weak!" rolls deception 16+

Hobgoblin: rolls insight (or use passive insight). "Haha, stupid humans don't know that are midsection are quite protected, our *insert special type of armor* is the best in the lands!".

Don't you ever watch movies or read books?

[Falcon X]

I've done this before. And if you want any of my lvl5 premade characters, personal message me and I'll send pdfs.

The important things here are:
1. Everyone character has a clear concept of what makes them special.
2. Lay out the character sheet in an easy to read manner. If it is a one-shot game, you can use your own names for things. Ex. Instead of "Devil's sight" for a warlock, call it "Darkness sight" or "Sees in magical darkness".
If it is for a campaign, obviously that won't work because they have to level up.

[Petrocorus]

I suggest building at least one high INT character and making sure you reward them for successful Knowledge checks with enemy resistances, vulnerabilities, damage types, features, etc. Anything you think might be useful information.

Actually, i'm a little fuzzy about this. What knowledge check should i have the player do to do this? Nature? History? It's more or less spelled out for outsiders in the description of Arcana, but what about the hobgoblin, or a wyvern?


I've done this before. And if you want any of my lvl5 premade characters, personal message me and I'll send pdfs.

The important things here are:
1. Everyone character has a clear concept of what makes them special.

That's a good idea and that's why i want every PC to have his own fighting style, and usefulness.



2. Lay out the character sheet in an easy to read manner. If it is a one-shot game, you can use your own names for things. Ex. Instead of "Devil's sight" for a warlock, call it "Darkness sight" or "Sees in magical darkness".
If it is for a campaign, obviously that won't work because they have to level up.

That's not a one-shot, i'm going to play with them every two weeks for almost year. I need to start level 1 so the players can learn the game's rule and their abilities without being overwhelmed.

[ZenBear]

Seriously, mind control? :smallannoyed: Yeah sure, tricking people is now mind control.

Tricking enemies with charisma is exactly what deception is about. I just gave a 2 second example, you can replace what the pc and hobgoblin said easily enough with...

Fighter: "damnit, our weapons aren't that great guys but we can do it! Let's aim for their midsection it looks weak!" rolls deception 16+

Hobgoblin: rolls insight (or use passive insight). "Haha, stupid humans don't know that are midsection are quite protected, our *insert special type of armor* is the best in the lands!".

Don't you ever watch movies or read books?

Plenty. If you're running a comedy campaign, sure. In a more serious setting, that's not going to fly except on exceptionally stupid creatures like goblins perhaps, but not on disciplined hobgoblins. Besides, that only works on creatures smart enough to speak, speak a language your party does, and dumb enough to fall for such a childish ploy. Beasts, monsters, aberrations and any creature without a common language will be immune to this tactic, but Knowledge checks merely require proficiency and/or a high INT.

Edit: A successful Deception check would only convince the hobs that you think their armor is weak. Nothing in that requires them to correct you. If it did, then it's effectively mind control. I've seen it dozens of times and been guilty of it myself. I had a blast playing a Lawful Evil Dwarf Paladin who through straight Persuasion/Deception checks managed to sack a town and steal a ship without ever lifting his blade, but that doesn't make it a proper by RAW or RAI use of the skills.

As for which Knowledge skill fits what creatures, it's up to the DM. I personally use History for intelligent humanoids, Nature for natural beasts, Religion for undead, fiends and celestials, and Arcana for aberrations, monstrosities, elementals, etc. Use your own judgment for anything I missed or anything you disagree on.