Wizard researching new spells

[SeekerofTruth]

Hello everyone,

I play a scholarly wizard who wants to know every single spell and power on Faerun. At the moment he is researching new spells. An idea that came to mind for new spells is to mimic abilities of other classes/monsters that he sees through his journeys. So for example he sees a fighter using improved trip and wants to make a new spell that mimics this behavior for a specific duration. Or he sees a rogue dodging with uncanny dodge. How would you come with a formula for the duration and the spell level? It is certain that the spell shouldn't be of a level lower than the first time a character could acquire this ability. Apart from that do you see any other restrictions? Is it acceptable for duration 1hour/level?

Thank you everyone for your insights!

[daremetoidareyo]

Hello everyone,

I play a scholarly wizard who wants to know every single spell and power on Faerun. At the moment he is researching new spells. An idea that came to mind for new spells is to mimic abilities of other classes/monsters that he sees through his journeys. So for example he sees a fighter using improved trip and wants to make a new spell that mimics this behavior for a specific duration. Or he sees a rogue dodging with uncanny dodge. How would you come with a formula for the duration and the spell level? It is certain that the spell shouldn't be of a level lower than the first time a character could acquire this ability. Apart from that do you see any other restrictions? Is it acceptable for duration 1hour/level?

Thank you everyone for your insights!

I don't like the idea. You're stepping all over the mundane classes with this. Why be a fighter if you can be a rogue with a few wands and this wizard's spell book? You shouldn't be putting feats or class abilities on wands and in the hands of the most powerful class in the game. If you do do this, I suggest that you allow all players who aren't wizards to be allowed to use classes from dndwiki. You're obviously cool with a super high power level, so maybe this advice is all worthless. But if you have players in this group who are straight fighters/rogues/barbarians/or monks, what you are allowing this caster to do is replace all of them with none of the sacrfice except HD size. A smart caster would make a Staff of Swift hunter, a Staff of whirlpounce barbarian, staff of druid skillz. And then they have all of the powers in the game.

Further: Minutes per level at best.

[yellowrocket]

I see quite a few issues that need clarification.
What level wizard?

What type of campaign?

Party or solo adventure?

Timeline of campaign, if an ongoing adventure?

What value do you place on feats, and what value does your dm place on them? Because they're feats they're available at different times to different builds, so spell level and character level aren't connected in this case. Duration is going to be dependent on cost.

[SeekerofTruth]

Interesting answers. I haven't thought that this would lead to overpowered effects, like the staves you mentioned. I imagined when a wizard can cast at 5th level fly, he should be able to also grant evasion with a spell to someone for a limited duration. This is what jump, spider climb, and other spells do. They grant the subject abilities he doesn't have. What if the wizard could cast "uncanny dodge" and "evasion" on the party's fighter? All would be happy. There is also the cleric spell "find traps" which grants the ability to search for traps as a rogue would do. It is a lvl 2 spell granting a 1st level ability, and you are correct duration is 1 min/level.

It is about a party adventure. What do you mean by type or timeline of campaign? Wizard level is 5. I don't know what value the dm is placing on feats.

Then, if I change a little the direction of the research and say new spells that grant a bonus to skills, as per jump. How much should this bonus be? Lets take jump as a basis, it grants +30 for 1min/lvl. Is it ok for +30 on a single skill for 1min/lvl as a 1st level spell? Is it ok a +15 on two different skill for 1min/lvl? Is it ok +10 on three different skills for 1min/lvl? Is it ok +1 on a single skill for 1hour/two levels? And the logic goes on like this.

Thank you for your answers!

[yellowrocket]

When you talk about researching spells, you're talking about time and experimentation. There are costs with something like that. So in a fast paced campaign with constantly moving events and little downtime, spell research is a costly time investment. The world doesn't stop because you want downtime, you stop participating in the world.

[ryu]

When you talk about researching spells, you're talking about time and experimentation. There are costs with something like that. So in a fast paced campaign with constantly moving events and little downtime, spell research is a costly time investment. The world doesn't stop because you want downtime, you stop participating in the world.

True to an extent, but it's very credulity straining to make a world where even a single week of downtime is going to be more than a minor cost with any sort of commonality. Unless you want to make the argument that world/continent is in constant danger of exploding, or the king has an assassin after him every three days or so, or something similarly silly.

[SeekerofTruth]

Ah, I see what you mean. No the DM is giving us time, fighters are preparing their way, clerics as well, it is a way to have roleplaying, so researching new spells will be part of the game. Of course I should present the DM a well balanced spell, and he will do his modifications if needed.

[Surpriser]

Interesting answers. I haven't thought that this would lead to overpowered effects, like the staves you mentioned. I imagined when a wizard can cast at 5th level fly, he should be able to also grant evasion with a spell to someone for a limited duration. This is what jump, spider climb, and other spells do. They grant the subject abilities he doesn't have. What if the wizard could cast "uncanny dodge" and "evasion" on the party's fighter? All would be happy. There is also the cleric spell "find traps" which grants the ability to search for traps as a rogue would do. It is a lvl 2 spell granting a 1st level ability, and you are correct duration is 1 min/level.
Less overpowered, more like "making other characters pointless". Why play a rogue if the wizard in the party is better at rogue-ing than the rogue with nothing more than an hour of preparation?
And yes, spells like "find traps" exist, but they are part of the reason why full casters are usually seen as dominating most other classes. By introducing additional spells that duplicate other class features, you are further reducing the types of challenges that playing anything other than a wizard is an advantage for.

That said, this does not mean that such spells must never appear in game. Just be careful not to step onto anyones toes. If you (try to) copy abilities seen on enemies, which no one in the party has access to, you should be able to avoid stealing your party members' spotlight.


Then, if I change a little the direction of the research and say new spells that grant a bonus to skills, as per jump. How much should this bonus be? Lets take jump as a basis, it grants +30 for 1min/lvl. Is it ok for +30 on a single skill for 1min/lvl as a 1st level spell? Is it ok a +15 on two different skill for 1min/lvl? Is it ok +10 on three different skills for 1min/lvl? Is it ok +1 on a single skill for 1hour/two levels? And the logic goes on like this.

There is a lvl 2 Cleric spell (Guidance of the Avatar) that gives a +20 bonus on a single skill check.
Jump only grants a +10 bonus.
Further examples:
- Glibness (Brd3) gives you +30 on Bluff checks for 10min/lvl
- Guidance (Clr0) gives +1 to a single check (skill/attack/save)
Other similar spells exist outside core.

From this, as a rough guideline, I would say that a spell granting a minor bonus to all skills or a major bonus to one specific skill (like Jump, but not skills like Use Magic Device) for a few minutes should be ok as a lvl 1 spell.

[daremetoidareyo]

Interesting answers. I haven't thought that this would lead to overpowered effects, like the staves you mentioned. I imagined when a wizard can cast at 5th level fly, he should be able to also grant evasion with a spell to someone for a limited duration. This is what jump, spider climb, and other spells do. They grant the subject abilities he doesn't have. What if the wizard could cast "uncanny dodge" and "evasion" on the party's fighter? All would be happy. There is also the cleric spell "find traps" which grants the ability to search for traps as a rogue would do. It is a lvl 2 spell granting a 1st level ability, and you are correct duration is 1 min/level.


Does a rogue 1/barbarian 4 with a wand of cleave count as having the cleave feat for prestige classes?

I don't know your group, so take everything that follows with a grain of salt. I love mundane classes. I very much dislike the high tier magic classes. If everything I could do as a proud barbarian soulknife could be distilled into 3 spells and put into a wand chamber, I would never play a non-caster again. There would be no point.

[Beheld]

You shouldn't be able to duplicate any ability as soon as some other character can do it. It makes since that a character that devotes himself to a specific thing is going to do it sooner and better than a generalist who could have that or literally anything else in the game.

Rage isn't a first level spell, it comes in at level 5. Foresight gives you the effects of uncanny dodge and some other effects too, but if you take off those other effects, it doesn't become a second level spell.

If you want to duplicate everyone else, then you can only duplicate them not as well, at a higher level, and for less time. That's what you get for choosing to be an every class in the game instead of a one specific class with no ability to change to fit the situation.

Uncanny Dodge only does anything against creatures that attack from surprise and/or while invisible, It only does much when those creatures are also doing SA damage. If I Rogue could trade out uncanny dodge for fire resist whenever fighting a red dragon, he would do that, he can't though, so if you can, you are just better than him.

[ryu]

Does a rogue 1/barbarian 4 with a wand of cleave count as having the cleave feat for prestige classes?

I don't know your group, so take everything that follows with a grain of salt. I love mundane classes. I very much dislike the high tier magic classes. If everything I could do as a proud barbarian soulknife could be distilled into 3 spells and put into a wand chamber, I would never play a non-caster again. There would be no point.

Soulknife can do things? Since when? I know a barbarian who knows his stuff is capable of becoming something but soulknife was supposed to be bad even by mundane standards? Maybe I'm thinking soulborne or some other soul-something with a poorly differentiated class name?

[GreyBlack]

Soulknife can do things? Since when? I know a barbarian who knows his stuff is capable of becoming something but soulknife was supposed to be bad even by mundane standards? Maybe I'm thinking soulborne or some other soul-something with a poorly differentiated class name?

Soulborn is a trash Incarnum class. Soulknife is a slightly less trash psionics class.

Edit: On topic, the spell you're proposing should really be rounds/level, and even then should be at least a 6th level spell if not higher. It outmodes every other class and makes every other class irrelevant.

[SeekerofTruth]

Thank you for your insight.



That said, this does not mean that such spells must never appear in game. Just be careful not to step onto anyones toes. If you (try to) copy abilities seen on enemies, which no one in the party has access to, you should be able to avoid stealing your party members' spotlight.
I'll keep the above in mind and work towards this direction then.

In addition, do you have any ideas for new low-level spells that could last long, at least 1h/lvl or even 1day/lvl?

[Tiktakkat]

The 2nd level sorcerer/wizard spell Heroics in the Spell Compendium grants a feat from the Fighter Bonus Feat list for 10 minutes/level.

I would expect raising the level for class features, and both raising the level and reducing the duration for Spell-like or Supernatural rather than Extraordinary class features.

[Beheld]

In addition, do you have any ideas for new low-level spells that could last long, at least 1h/lvl or even 1day/lvl?

No Buff spell should ever last 1 day per CL. That's called a Permanent Wizard Class Feature. Those are bad, and you shouldn't have them.

[daremetoidareyo]

Thank you for your insight.


I'll keep the above in mind and work towards this direction then.

In addition, do you have any ideas for new low-level spells that could last long, at least 1h/lvl or even 1day/lvl?

Low levels haven't too many long duration summons or calling spells. Sometimes a dude wants to summon a squirrel for a few hours, or call real bees (not just buzzing sounds) to pest someone... Fine Fiendish bees. Summon dire hawk is a 2nd level druid spell with hours for duration. But there is no reason why a summoner wouldn't be able to get a less useful ground based spy for a similar duration. e.g. Summon housecat or summon worthless mutt could be good 1st level spells that last hours/level. You could also justify a +1 enhancement bonus to an ability score spell that lasts hours per level as a 1st level spell.

There is a lack of a hair growth spell, which would be mostly cosmetic, but sometimes your party dwarf has a nasty fire accident.

Power word vomit would be helpful with injested poisons...as well as enemies who eat your stuff...although that doesn't help with the whole long duration thing.

[elonin]

What do you want to do with your character? If this is academic "say research" then this could be permissible. If not it sounds as though you are trying to replace a few character types and want to play a computer game rather than a rpg.

[SeekerofTruth]

What do you want to do with your character? If this is academic "say research" then this could be permissible. If not it sounds as though you are trying to replace a few character types and want to play a computer game rather than a rpg.
No, by no means. Don't misinterpret my intentions. I do not want to play any computer game--I have stopped playing computer games long ago. The spells shouldn't be powerful or broken, and I don't want to "break" the game by any means or ruin it for other players. I just wanted new spells that were different; that's all. In most additional books the spells are "deals x damage" in various types of damage, with or without save or as touch attack, cone, whatever. And it is a bit boring. I wanted something different.

[Tvtyrant]

As a DM I made a magic spell creating spreadsheet for my players which gave extra points for spell creation based on the spells level and the specificity of the spell. I will post it here in just a minute if I can find it.

Turns out I have no clue how to get an excell sheet onto this forum, so basic rules in the spoiler.

Spell Creation Rules
A caster may create a new spell by using the connected spell creation rules along with this helpful handbook. A new spell takes 1 week per spell level to research and 100 gold pieces for each week, cantrips can be researched for 50 gold pieces and a day of research. For Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters creating a new spell is both simpler and more complicated; they simply gain a new spell of their choosing whenever they would normally get a spell from extra spell feat or leveling up.
A spell has a base attribute and then a number of spell development points equal to its spell level. Spell development points cost either negative, 0, or positive points as per the excel sheet. A Spell cannot benefit from more than double its spell level in negative points (a Cantrip is allowed one negative point.) The below chart shows the base maximum damage of a spell, which is usually 1d6/caster level.
Cantrip:
1d6
Level 1 Spell:
5d6
Level 2 Spell:
5d6
Level 3 Spell:
10d6

Unmodified or basic spells are considered to deal fire, cold, lightning or acid damage, have a reflex save for half and target a single opponent. They are also resisted by spell resistance.
Modifying effects are given in the Excel sheet, such as increasing the size of the damage die and adding different status effects. The type of save can also be altered, as well as the number or targets.
An example spell is broken down below:

Tyrant’s Fright Glare
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. +5 ft. per level)
Target: Target Creature
Duration: 1 round/CL
Saving Throw: Fortitude Save
Spell Resistance: Yes
A dark beam of energy emits from your eyes, terrifying your enemies and causing them harm.
Target creature makes a fortitude save or takes 1d6 cold damage and is shaken. On a successful save they resist the effect entirely.

So the above spell is a fort save (-1 to formula.) It does base damage and base energy type (+0) and makes the opponent shaken on a save (+1.) Adding these together we get a total score of +0, so it is acceptable as a cantrip.


-3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Bane Spell (Only effects one of the following)
Aberration, Humanoid (reptilian), Animal, Magical beast, Construct, Monstrous Humanoid, Dragon, Ooze, Elemental Outsider (air), Fey, Outsider( chaotic), Giant Outsider (earth), Humanoid (aquatic) Outsider (evil), Humanoid (dwarf), Outsider (fire)
Humanoid (elf), Outsider (good)
Humanoid (goblinoid), Outsider (lawful)
Humanoid (gnoll), Outsider (native)
Humanoid (gnome), Outsider (water)
Humanoid (halfling), Plant
Humanoid (human), Undead
Humanoid (orc), Vermin Multiple saves. Fortitude save. Melee touch attack replaces save for damage on single target spell. Increase damage die by 1 (stacks with itself up to d12.) Inflicts sickened condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts blinded condition on enemy if they fail save. Deals 1d6 ability damage on enemy if they fail their save. Inflicts Stunned condition on enemy if they fail save.
No Damage. Reduce damage die to d4. Ranged touch attack replaces save for damage on single target spell. Inflicts dazzled condition on enemy if they fail save. Effects group instead of individual (Area 5 ft./CL, medium range.) Inflicts Entangled condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts Confused condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts Frightened condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts shaken condition condition on enemy if they succeed on their save. Spell is Spell Resistance: No.
Will save instead of reflex save. Inflicts fatigued condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts deafened condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts Blown Away condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts Exhausted condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts fatigued on enemy if they succeed on save. Inflicts Nauseated condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts sickened condition on enemy if they succeed on their save. Inflicts Paralyzed condition on enemy if they fail save.
"Bounces" instead of area for group spell. (1 target per 3 CL) Inflicts sickened condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts prone condition on enemy if they fail save. Increase ability damage die by 1 (maximum d12), requires ability damage.) Inflicts Dazed condition on enemy if they fail save. Inflicts dazzled on the enemy if they succeed on a save.
Damage type is fire, ice, acid. Damage type changes to sonic. Damage type is changed to force.
Summons a particular creature (increases by 1 for each CR of creature or by doubling the number of creatures.)

[Ger. Bessa]

I think all those spell already exist, in all the 3.5 splatbooks. When I read "he sees the fighter using improved trip" I thought "heroics : Improved trip" and maybe "Tenser's transformation" (very well balanced buff, by the way).

Complete Adventurer has a boatload of such spells, spell compendium has bucketloads of utility gems, and you can find the rest in the environmental ones.

You want incarnum, there is Incarnum Apotheosis as a domain spell(pick arcane thesis). Sneak attack is on the ranger spell list so getting it on Wiz/Sor has a cost (a 2 lvl dip in unseen seer). Polymorph grants something similar (or better) than druid shapeshifting.

Skill boosts are very dangerous because the mechanics behind skill checks is not very smooth (look at diplomancy, basketweaving and everything orifice-related). Jump (the spell), true strike, true casting, and glibness must remain exceptions. Guidance of the Avatar is a mistake. Divine insight should remain the best unspecific skill-boosting spell, among with the few reroll buffs (ruin delver's fortune).

Then, a caster can always get what he wants through indirect ways. You don't want to be sneak attacked ? Don't get uncanny dodge, get undead immunities. Don't detect trap, let Celestial Monkey do it for you. Don't need a druid, cast tongues.

It's not your wizard that need to research new spells, it's you. Those spells are in a book. Somewhere. (Vestigewrack is in ToM).

[Melcar]

Hello everyone,

I play a scholarly wizard who wants to know every single spell and power on Faerun. At the moment he is researching new spells. An idea that came to mind for new spells is to mimic abilities of other classes/monsters that he sees through his journeys. So for example he sees a fighter using improved trip and wants to make a new spell that mimics this behavior for a specific duration. Or he sees a rogue dodging with uncanny dodge. How would you come with a formula for the duration and the spell level? It is certain that the spell shouldn't be of a level lower than the first time a character could acquire this ability. Apart from that do you see any other restrictions? Is it acceptable for duration 1hour/level?

Thank you everyone for your insights!

If your wizard wants the abilities of mundanes he is not thinking straight... He has no fantasy. Why would he ever reduce himself to that level, when his powers could rival that of the gods... And he could conquer entire nations with his thoughts alone... Drop this futile idea of a fighting wizard... Remember that sound it made in wheel of fortune when answering wrong? That sound is going of right now.

[daremetoidareyo]

If your wizard wants the abilities of mundanes he is not thinking straight... He has no fantasy. Why would he ever reduce himself to that level, when his powers could rival that of the gods... And he could conquer entire nations with his thoughts alone... Drop this futile idea of a fighting wizard... Remember that sound it made in wheel of fortune when answering wrong? That sound is going of right now.

I dont know man, maybe this particular wizard has a real curatorial streak. He pushes himself by collecting and cataloguing every known spell in existence! Once he's done doing that, then he can create the newest updates!

[SeekerofTruth]

Complete Adventurer has a boatload of such spells, spell compendium has bucketloads of utility gems, and you can find the rest in the environmental ones.

I didn't knew the existence of these books. They seem to have the kind of spells I seek.


Why would he ever reduce himself to that level, when his powers could rival that of the gods [...] Drop this futile idea of a fighting wizard I don't want these spells for me, but first for just knowing them, and second to cast on those party members who don't have these abilities. I like the idea of a support mage who uses his magic to make his fellow adventurers better. I don't want my wizard to conquer nations or to rival gods. I play a simple lawful good scholar that seeks knowledge.


Then, a caster can always get what he wants through indirect ways. You don't want to be sneak attacked ? Don't get uncanny dodge, get undead immunities. Don't detect trap, let Celestial Monkey do it for you. Don't need a druid, cast tongues. A very interesting and viable alternative. By the way, could I design a new summon monster spell that "duplicates" a party member when she was younger. Let's say we have a rogue who is 5 level, I could design a level 3 summon rogue spell that "summons" a rogue of 3rd level (or maybe lower) for 1 round/level. I know this again "steals" the abilities of other party member, but it could be seen as an illusion like simulacrum but less powerful?

I just toss ideas, and with your assistance, we could come up with something viable!

[Zanos]

Not sure if it's been linked yet, but here's mirror move (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a), which sounds similar to what you want.

[Lhurgyof]

The heroics spell grants fighter bonus feats.

The Ruin Delver'so Fortune spell can give Evasion.

Just grab a spell compendium and rummage though it. Most abilities exist as spells already.

[Andezzar]

No, by no means. Don't misinterpret my intentions. I do not want to play any computer game--I have stopped playing computer games long ago. The spells shouldn't be powerful or broken, and I don't want to "break" the game by any means or ruin it for other players. I just wanted new spells that were different; that's all. In most additional books the spells are "deals x damage" in various types of damage, with or without save or as touch attack, cone, whatever. And it is a bit boring. I wanted something different.You might not be looking at the right spells/books. There are some pretty varied spells out there from Mindrape to making a ship a submarine to various forms of flight to...

What are you trying to emulate? Evasion can be emulated with a bonus to saves and certain resistance spells. Or in case of spells targeting the wizard Spell immunity, (lesser) Globe of invulnerability etc. would achieve a better result.

[GreyBlack]

No, by no means. Don't misinterpret my intentions. I do not want to play any computer game--I have stopped playing computer games long ago. The spells shouldn't be powerful or broken, and I don't want to "break" the game by any means or ruin it for other players. I just wanted new spells that were different; that's all. In most additional books the spells are "deals x damage" in various types of damage, with or without save or as touch attack, cone, whatever. And it is a bit boring. I wanted something different.

Oh, honey!

There is a great wide world of spellcasting out there, waiting for you to get out there and discover them! There's spells that shrink objects, grow objects, make objects sparkly and blind. You can conjure wind, make the earth around you bend to your will, create pocket dimensions, turn into a giant dragon, and alter fate itself! Why mess around with, "I can dodge good"?

If you're interested in a new spell to have fun with, look up Daggerspell Stance. That should give you a good direction for, "not just blasting."

[Andezzar]

And all the options GreyBlack mentioned are from the PHB IIRC. The supplements give all sorts of new options.

Daggerspell Stance is not from the PHB, but it wasn't in the post when I replied

[SeekerofTruth]

Oh, honey!
There is a great wide world of spellcasting out there, waiting for you to get out there and discover them! There's spells that shrink objects, grow objects, make objects sparkly and blind. You can conjure wind, make the earth around you bend to your will, create pocket dimensions, turn into a giant dragon, and alter fate itself! Why mess around with, "I can dodge good"?


Ok, I think you've persuaded me to play the wizard as a wizard and not as a fighter/rogue. To arms then, err I mean "become squirrel" :smalltongue:

[Andezzar]

Ok, I think you've persuaded me to play the wizard as a wizard and not as a fighter/rogue. To arms then, err I mean "become squirrel :smalltongue:The nice way is to make the fighter/rogue in the party a squirrel hydra, not yourself. Rogue and fighter flanking the opponent and the rogue getting 5+ sneak attacks isn't too bad. Especially when the opponent is already dazed/confused/entangled/whatever status effect by one of your other spells.

[Fizban]

One spell not in Spell Compendium is the low level one for uncanny dodge. You'll find Warning in Oriental Adventures or Player's Guide to Faerun, granting all the benefits of uncanny dodge and more for 10 minutes/level. Not a Wizard spell though, OA has it as a Shaman/Sohei/domain spell (roughly a cleric spell), while PgtF has it as an Initiate of Helm spell. The latter would imply that it's supposed to be restricted almost like a class feature, except plenty of Spell Compendium spells were originally deity restricted, and the OA version was printed long before then.

[unseenmage]

Wizards already make every other class obsolete because of magic. Magic, by design, solves all of the problems. Gate is literally Summon Class Abilities as a single spell. Even better it is also Summon non-PC Abilities as well. Heck, with the right magic you could even theoretically attain the powers of the deities themselves and turn the world into a post-scarcity society.

Invalidating a few mundanes is already child's play. Doing so with even more magic is kind of a win-more situation. Like, it's been done and you're just doing it again to poke at them. For funsies.

All that said, replicating class abilities and handing them to other classes is a big no-no. Why? Because this is supposed to be a group game and everyone isn't supposed to be playing the wizard. At least that's how it was supposed to go. The reality is that that particular part of the social agreement at any given game table will be malleable. As such discuss your intention with your GM and playgroup thoroughly before implementing any kind of hand-out-class-abilities-like-candy process.

As a good rule of thumb I've always striven to avoid researching new spells that were in any way new or original like the plague. When researching new spells I've always found it to be best balanced when simply adding bigger numbers for higher spell levels and/or making a spell available to another spellcasting class by adding a spell level or two. This way I'm not introducing complete wildcards into the GM's machinations.

Also check out the War Spells link in my signature. Between them and Metamagic feats there are already a TON of ways to practically create new spells without risking the game/player/party balance chaos that is truly heretofor unseen magic at a game table.


...

What value do you place on feats, and what value does your dm place on them? Because they're feats they're available at different times to different builds, so spell level and character level aren't connected in this case. Duration is going to be dependent on cost.

Feats have a value in Arms and Equipment Guide. 10,000gp plus 5,000gp per prerequisite.

[GreyBlack]

Ok, I think you've persuaded me to play the wizard as a wizard and not as a fighter/rogue. To arms then, err I mean "become squirrel" :smalltongue:

Glad I could help!

[yellowrocket]

Feats have a value in Arms and Equipment Guide. 10,000gp plus 5,000gp per prerequisite.

Guess I need to expand my collection of books. I was talking about a relative value, ie do they see them as key to a build, ever powerful class defining features, or a nice bonus that you occasionally forget you even have.

On the other hand, a little extra side work at mid levels working above wbl and you could really change some strict builds with a few feats if your dm isn't overly strict. Then again if you're willing to break wbl that badly, they're likely to give then to you anyways.

[Beheld]

Feats have a value in Arms and Equipment Guide. 10,000gp plus 5,000gp per prerequisite.

Well... that's like a made up Guideline ask your DM.

The real cost of a feat is 1400 for an Otyugh Hole + 2450 for Embrace Dark Chaos + 2450 for Shun the Dark Chaos for a total cost of 6300gp total.

Repeat for Credit. See if you can get a bulk deal on Otyugh Hole trips.

[Shackel]

There certainly is a truly absurd amount of hostility towards the OP's concept.

If you're going to take notes from class features or other monsters, I would recommend putting either a bit of a magical twist on it, or allow it to further boost the creature you took it from. Say you have... I don't know, Twinkletoes, which you've taken from Evasion. Instead of it just being Evasion: The Spell, you could have it be an immediate action spell to become briefly blink into the Ethereal Plane or something, but you have to concentrate to remain ethereal.

Or have it give Evasion for ~rounds/level(which sounds fair for one of the heavy-duty class features), but also improve the Evasion another character has. Cast it on that low-level rogue and now they have Improved Evasion for rounds/level. Give it to someone with Improved Evasion and they simply don't take damage from Reflex-based saves.

See someone with cleave? Magical twist on it. Shockwave Strike, now their next attack deals damage and effects to an adjacent enemy(Reflex half), so long as they hit(in which it is discharged, afterwards).

Basically, my suggestion is to make it close enough so that the inspiration is clear, but just far enough away from the actual class feature as to not just be "Class Feature: Spell Version".

[SeekerofTruth]

There certainly is a truly absurd amount of hostility towards the OP's concept. I am not holding a grudge to anyone. :smallsmile:

A bit off-topic, do people play nowadays fighter/mage/thief or fighter/cleric/mage as we did in the old days...

[Andezzar]

I am not holding a grudge to anyone. :smallsmile:

A bit off-topic, do people play nowadays fighter/mage/thief or fighter/cleric/mage as we did in the old days...Probably not many, because wizard and cleric are already better fighters than fighters.

[ryu]

I am not holding a grudge to anyone. :smallsmile:

A bit off-topic, do people play nowadays fighter/mage/thief or fighter/cleric/mage as we did in the old days...

People who are playing casters tend to stay in their caster class because spellcasting progression is one of the most powerful and important things in this game. If you're looking for a wizard with a sword or similar you'll probably find someone with like one level in a martial class and a few levels in wizard to qualify for a prestige class that advances both. It's generally accepted that these are almost strictly less powerful than straight wizard because the character dropped a caster level.

If a build isn't using any spellcasting the common theme is lots of short forays into a number of martial classes because their best advancement by level hits almost immediately. A person doing this is much more versatile and powerful on average than someone who took only one straight martial class. They're no casters by any means, but they're still better than straight fighter or barbarian for example.

[GreyBlack]

I am not holding a grudge to anyone. :smallsmile:

A bit off-topic, do people play nowadays fighter/mage/thief or fighter/cleric/mage as we did in the old days...

Hey, 2e five! Up top!

In all seriousness, there _are_ ways and there aren't. There is a concept called "gestalt", which allows you to level up 2 classes at the same time, but nothing for triple gestalting. The d20 system is built in such a way (outside of pathfinder) to encourage mixing and matching of several prestige classes to achieve a desired level of specificity in a given build (even if said build isn't necessarily good). This leads to PrCs like the Fochlucan Lyrist or Eldritch Knight, which essentially gestalts your character even without gestalting (by that, I mean leveling up the class features of multiple classes). So, if you wanted to run a Fighter/Magic-user in the old system, you would (at a basic level) go Fighter 5/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10. Cleric/Magic-user would be Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Mystic Theurge 10. Fighter/Cleric would probably just be straight Cleric, though, as Clerics are melee powerhouses.

Point being there is really very little overlap, mechanically, in the systems, despite the name Dungeons and Dragons.

ETA: And, as a general rule, you don't lose much much from taking fighter our of your builds.

[Ger. Bessa]

There certainly is a truly absurd amount of hostility towards the OP's concept.


Most answers are basically "Don't steal from mundane, balance and role-filling is already in the wizard's favour".

But the issue is that the OP did NOT have knowledge of spells outside of PHB. He was asking how to balance homebrew ones because he had never seen the printed ones.

[GreyBlack]

There certainly is a truly absurd amount of hostility towards the OP's concept.

Hostility? Not really. More of a, "why? You already can do everything, so why try and emulate melee." At least from me.


If you're going to take notes from class features or other monsters, I would recommend putting either a bit of a magical twist on it, or allow it to further boost the creature you took it from. Say you have... I don't know, Twinkletoes, which you've taken from Evasion. Instead of it just being Evasion: The Spell, you could have it be an immediate action spell to become briefly blink into the Ethereal Plane or something, but you have to concentrate to remain ethereal.

Or have it give Evasion for ~rounds/level(which sounds fair for one of the heavy-duty class features), but also improve the Evasion another character has. Cast it on that low-level rogue and now they have Improved Evasion for rounds/level. Give it to someone with Improved Evasion and they simply don't take damage from Reflex-based saves.

See someone with cleave? Magical twist on it. Shockwave Strike, now their next attack deals damage and effects to an adjacent enemy(Reflex half), so long as they hit(in which it is discharged, afterwards).

Basically, my suggestion is to make it close enough so that the inspiration is clear, but just far enough away from the actual class feature as to not just be "Class Feature: Spell Version".

I would go one step further and say that you should never be able to emulate class features as a wizard. Rather, you invent some form of magical pseudo-version that isn't quite as strong. Your rogue friend can't be flanked? You can cast a spell as an immediate action that lets you not be flanked. Your paladin buddy can boost people's saves just by being nearby? You can boost one guy's saves.

However, I would put a hard limit on what can be emulated at level 10 (that is to say, you can't emulate class abilities that come above level 10). The abilities above level 10 are those things that make a class special, so I wouldn't dream of it.

[Melcar]

As a good rule of thumb I've always striven to avoid researching new spells that were in any way new or original like the plague. When researching new spells I've always found it to be best balanced when simply adding bigger numbers for higher spell levels and/or making a spell available to another spellcasting class by adding a spell level or two. This way I'm not introducing complete wildcards into the GM's machinations.

I'm sorry, but that sounds very boring. I would say the best part about being able to create new spells is the creativity it allows for. Its op the the PC/DM relationship to balance it, but why on Faerûn would you not want to be as creative as possible? I might be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are only creating "Improved" versions of already standard spells.

Dont get me wrong, if that is your prefered way, and everybody at the table is happy about it then thats fine, Im simply just curious as to this reason...

[unseenmage]

I'm sorry, but that sounds very boring. I would say the best part about being able to create new spells is the creativity it allows for. Its op the the PC/DM relationship to balance it, but why on Faerûn would you not want to be as creative as possible? I might be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are only creating "Improved" versions of already standard spells.

Dont get me wrong, if that is your prefered way, and everybody at the table is happy about it then thats fine, Im simply just curious as to this reason...

Mostly because if one desires to truly create within the confines of the gameworld then one should just GM said gameworld.

That and the method I described is what the custom spells guidelines propose right there in the book.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm sorry, but that sounds very boring. I would say the best part about being able to create new spells is the creativity it allows for. Its op the the PC/DM relationship to balance it, but why on Faerûn would you not want to be as creative as possible? I might be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are only creating "Improved" versions of already standard spells.

Dont get me wrong, if that is your prefered way, and everybody at the table is happy about it then thats fine, Im simply just curious as to this reason...

I support this notion wholeheartedly. Sometimes you want a spell that allows you to replace the victims heart with your calling card. Or you want to specialize in magic that revolves around venom and poison but spell thematics doesn't cover your needs. Possibly breaking the DMs game while staying within a fully immersed character is totally worth it. DMs compensate for stuff like this all the time, and usually its stuff that is allowed in core interacting with a weird question. Stuff like: "How much daylight does a vampire get at 200' underwater?" And all of a sudden your PCs are all aquatic vampire ship raiders... when the DM had a high intrigue war-styled campaign with morally ambiguous treatment of the various races in mind. So I fully encourage ice themed sorcerer/monk researching spells that look like killing moves from an ice ninja videogame.

[SeekerofTruth]

I am also looking for ways to construct permanent "robot-like" stuff. What I have found until now is a homunculus at level 7, animate dead at level 9, a shield guardian at level 12, simulacrum at level 13, a flesh golem at level 14, and finally a clay, stone or iron golem at level 16. Is there any other way to construct something "robot-like" (I hope you understand what I mean) of lesser power at an earlier level? I can't wait until that level :smallconfused:

Thanks again for all the help!

PS. If I should post this in a new Thread please tell me.

[Andezzar]

Be level 6, take leadership, find a warforged cohort.

[SeekerofTruth]

Unfortunately, we are playing in Faerun and there aren't any warforged. If there were, be sure I would play one :smallsmile: I was thinking of leadership as well but this wouldn't involve building one.

[Andezzar]

Dragon Magazine #371 has some ways to make Warforged work in Faerun.

[daremetoidareyo]

I am also looking for ways to construct permanent "robot-like" stuff. What I have found until now is a homunculus at level 7, animate dead at level 9, a shield guardian at level 12, simulacrum at level 13, a flesh golem at level 14, and finally a clay, stone or iron golem at level 16. Is there any other way to construct something "robot-like" (I hope you understand what I mean) of lesser power at an earlier level? I can't wait until that level :smallconfused:

Thanks again for all the help!

PS. If I should post this in a new Thread please tell me.

Craft construct is a feat that is in every major monster manual. Eberron campaign setting and Magic of eberron have a bunch of homonculi in those book's monster section that basically require arcane eye + another spell. This puts your first real perma-buddy at level 7. You can probably buy a scroll of arcane eye around level 4 or so.

You can craft an alchemy beatle (page 74 SoX) with two craft checks and access to the spell fireball. That puts your first mechanical buddy at level 6. (5th take craft magic arms and armor) 6th take craft construct.

MM4 has another construct that you need arcane eye for (the clockroach) as well as the clockwork mender, which you can summon with summon monster 2. You can also cast summon clockwork mender swarm, a 4th level spell. But the nicest thing about clockwork mender is that you can craft one as soon as you get the craft construct feat seeing as how it is built off of the spells repair light damage and mending. So if you somehow get arcane caster level 5 early and then take craft magic arms and armor by level 3, you can be crafting as soon as you get the feat for craft construct.

To be honest though, if you want to be a super constructor, artificer is the way to go.

[Fizban]

Craft Construct (which requires Craft Arms and Armor) lets you build any construct you meet the prerequisites for. There aren't very many low-level constructable constructs and they usually require lots of weird spells, golems in particular require spells way higher level than when a golem would be useful.

However, Complete Arcane has the Effigy Creature template, which allows you to make a robot version of a creature and has no requirements other than the Craft Construct feat and caster level=HD of monster. Choosing the right Effigy monsters almost always results in more power than other printed constructs, but they lack special abilities like magic immunity or lasers.

There's also a nice cheap animated armor in MM2 called the Dread Warrior, but even with the 3.5 update it still has prerequisites you can't meet at the level you'd want to use it. Effigies really are the only easy method, if you can get that allowed (and have a pile of cash) you're good.

[Eisfalken]

There's already a spell that allows you to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple/pin, or trip, once/round as long as you concentrate.

It's called telekinesis.

[Toilet Cobra]

...I don't want to "break" the game by any means or ruin it for other players.

Good man.

As mentioned, some folks wouldn't like you stepping on their classes' toes by copying their abilities into spells. On the other hand, some players would really appreciate you giving their fighters Evasion for 1/round per level. It really depends on your group.

I think the safe bet, and probably the more interesting to roleplay, would be to use your other idea and try to make spells that copy unique monster abilities. After all, there's no "mystery" in figuring out how rogues use their Evasion... they are just very nimble and that's that. But how does a Gorgon breathe out a cloud of petrifying gas? I could see a wizard very interested in the unique magical reactions that power these unusual attacks. I think these sorts of spells would make for a very unique wizard, and plus nobody in the party gets mad.

[Rezialn]

This doesn't seem like a D&D PC. This sounds like an NPC or a character from a different medium.

[Honjuden]

This thread might be better suited for the homebrew section.