D&D help: optimum builds.

[Athear]

I'm trying to build a optimized fighter based on viking warfare in 3.5: I am trying to build a viking shield maiden but I'm not sure how I can utilizes the resorces to make her.

[Talionis]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123630-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Shields Guide to everything shields, 3.5 shields are sub optimimum, but if you want it you can get a few tricks and this guide shows them pretty well.

[OldTrees1]

Name what you want to be able to do (besides damage and holding a shield) and we shall try to help.

I presume, from my frankly insufficient knowledge of viking warfare, that you would want to be able to demoralize opponents and cause staggering blows.

For the demoralizing I suggest the Zhetarim Soldier fighter ACF, some Fearsome armor(Drow of the Underdark), and pick up the Imperious Command feat.

For staggering I suggest 2 options:
1) The Shield Slam feat works to daze(1 round) a singular foe when you charge
2) The Staggering Strike feat requires sneak attack but all your sneak attacks can stagger(1 round) your foe. If you need to remain a pure fighter then it takes 2 feats to get sneak attack and then you would stagger anyone you flanked.

[Soranar]

honestly the damage die of your weapon becomes mostly meaningless after a few levels (6+) since the most damage you get comes from power attack


First, treat the shield as a normal two handed weapon (just hold it with both hands) to get the bonus for damage from power attack and STR

Use the shield feat that let you attack with a shield without losing your shield bonus

Now get the shield slam feat (causes stun or daze, not sure anymore, just check the shield handbook mentioned above)

You can now concentrate on a normal power attack build (ubercharger)

A great spell to boost your damage (assuming a friendly arcane caster) will be mighty wallop and greater mighty wallop

[Athear]

Name what you want to be able to do (besides damage and holding a shield) and we shall try to help.

I presume, from my frankly insufficient knowledge of viking warfare, that you would want to be able to demoralize opponents and cause staggering blows.

For the demoralizing I suggest the Zhetarim Soldier fighter ACF, some Fearsome armor(Drow of the Underdark), and pick up the Imperious Command feat.

For staggering I suggest 2 options:
1) The Shield Slam feat works to daze(1 round) a singular foe when you charge
2) The Staggering Strike feat requires sneak attack but all your sneak attacks can stagger(1 round) your foe. If you need to remain a pure fighter then it takes 2 feats to get sneak attack and then you would stagger anyone you flanked.

I'm looking more to be a defensive fighter. In preparation for battle the younger warriors would draw up in line, with their shields overlapping in a 'shield-wall' for better protection; their chiefs were well defended by a close bodyguard. The older veterans formed up in support behind them. Battle then began by throwing a spear over the enemy line to dedicate them to Odin, it is said, and this was followed by a shower of spears, arrows and other missiles.

If this was not enough to decide the outcome, each side then attempted to break through and rout the opposition, capturing or killing their leaders if possible. The experienced commander knew that the best way to achieve this was by forming a wedge of 20 to 30 warriors, with its point towards the enemy line in what was known as the svinfylking, or 'boar formation', and then charge, hoping to break through by sheer weight of numbers.

The famous 'berserks', whose name suggests they wore bearskins, may have fought in groups, and believed that Odin, the god of war, gave them both protection and superhuman powers so they had no need of armour. They would work themselves into a battle frenzy so intense it is said they bit on the edges of their shields, and could even ignore the pain of wounds.

[OldTrees1]

I'm looking more to be a defensive fighter. In preparation for battle the younger warriors would draw up in line, with their shields overlapping in a 'shield-wall' for better protection; their chiefs were well defended by a close bodyguard. The older veterans formed up in support behind them. Battle then began by throwing a spear over the enemy line to dedicate them to Odin, it is said, and this was followed by a shower of spears, arrows and other missiles.

A lot of the shield wall / boar can be found in the creation of a phalanx in this handbook:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4963.

The best bodyguard mechanic I know of in 3rd edition is the Devoted Defender's "Harm's Way" ability. It requires you to be close to your charge and only protects 1 charge but protects them from an unlimited number of attacks (provided you survive the attacks all being redirected towards you and your AC).

[vorpalvolta]

Keep in mind a defensive build is almost never going to be optimal in this game.

Can be lots of fun though!

[Ruethgar]

Trait:
Cautious

Feats:
Combat Expertise
Allied Defense
Deadly Defense
Parry chain
Reckless Offense

Class:
Bodyguard 2 from DrgMg #310 has nice things. Namely great cleave for the price of one feat and the ability to add your shield and combat expertise to an indefinite number of adjacent allies.

Away from my sheets right now, but I made a character that could grant +6 AC to all adjacent allies with -1 to himself as well as having if +1d6 damage no attack penalty and the ability to burn AoOs to prevent damage to self and adjacent allies. And that was without a shield.

Edit: This was at a fairly low level, but did require some cheese to fill in the mass number of feats.

[Fizban]

There are more complicated phalanx/group fighting feats, but I find Shield Wall from Heroes of Battle to be the easiest to get and use, just +2 AC when fighting next to an ally who's also using a shield, they don't need to have any special feats themselves, just you. There's other shield feats, but I'm pretty sure when people say "shieldmaiden" they really mean "person who fights with a weapon and shield" and not "person who steamrolls people using a shield like a battering ram." The Improved Shield Bash+Shield Charge+Shield Slam line is perfectly solid, but it's not why shields were invented. Parrying Shield (Lords of Madness) gives you AC against touch spells in a single feat, but most people recommend Shield Specialization+Shield Ward (PHB2) since it also protects against tripping and such.

Brutal Throw (Complete Adventurer) lets you use strength for accuracy on thrown weapons. Powerful Charge (Mini's, Eberron, or later MMs) gives a bonus die on charge attacks, or Tome of Battle manuevers can give bonuses to charging allies.

Bodyguard can mean a lot of things. I would assume in this context it's just a pile of warriors staying close, rather than a secret service or something. That said, if you want to protect someone else, it's usually been ridiculously hard in 3.5: prestige classes that make you drop your own defenses, possibly eating the attacks even worse than your VIP would have. Eventually it got better, but not all in one place. The cheapest and easiest methods are the feats Constant+Duituful Guardian, from Drow of the Underdark. Constant Guardian lets you take a -2 attack to grant +2 AC to an ally: it doesn't make you any easier to hit, it works out to 10', it has no prerequisites, and it should stack if a group all defends one person. Dutiful Guardian then lets you switch places with them in response to an attack (immediate action): with good positioning you can ensure that switching will leave them out of attack range, and no matter what you can negate that one attack since they've left the square before it lands.

Golden Cup Paladin substitution from Champions of Valor has Defend the Weak, which lets you add your bonus from fighting defensively and/or using Combat Expertise to one adjacent ally without losing it yourself. Combat Expertise is often underrated: A character who starts with a good AC and decides to go full Expertise for a turn usually doesn't get hit that turn. Downside is you need to spread your stats even further for int 13, unless you use a Passive Way monk dip to get it. The Deadly Defense feat in Complete Scoundrel gives you bonus damage when fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise: ask your DM to relax the weapon restrictions and let it give +1d6/-2 instead of a flat +1d6, and you'll have close to the same bonus damage as the vaunted Power Attack.

And of course there's Crusader maneuvers. Iron Guard's Glare stance is effectively +4 AC for allies standing next to you, and the Shield Block counter gives a massive AC bonus against the next attack.

Golden Cup Paladin 1/Passive Way Monk 1/Fighter 2/Crusader 1, then into your PrC of your choice or just stick with Crusader for reliable strike damage. Loses a point of BAB to avoid paying for int. With Constant Guardian, Defend the Weak+Combat Expertise, and Iron Guard's Glare, you can give an effective +11 AC to your VIP without losing a single point yourself, and you keep attacking (at -7) while you're doing it. You can't do anything about magic, but neither could the Vikings, and spells with attack rolls are just as vulnerable to Dutiful Guardian switch as weapons are.

Alternatively, look at all these 1st level class features and ask your DM to make them into feats. Defend the Weak and Iron Guard's Glare are the two biggies, though they're quite similar but also different enough (the first guards one specific person, the second impedes all foes within reach) that you could make two stacking feats.

And while I'm suggesting stuff for the dm to tweak or brew, I would heavily recommend fixing the armor and shield values. Have you ever tried to hit someone who's using a shield? It's hard. A full size shield should be worth far more than a buckler, but in 3.5 they're only 1 point apart. Bump the light shield to +2, the heavy shield to +3 (or even +4 if you're feeling daring), and reduce or remove the stupid penalty on attack with tower shields, or at least make it not apply to Light weapons or something. The main thing stopping shield characters from working is that the base shield rules plain suck, make shields good and people will use them.

Edit: aha! I knew there was a feat version of that, ninja'd by someone with Allied Defense. No need for Paladin dips then.

[Darrin]

Three feats you'll want to look at:

Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior). If you use a heavy shield and a light weapon, you get a +1 AC bonus. If you are adjacent to an ally who is also using a heavy shield and a light weapon, you get an additional +2 AC bonus and a +1 on Ref saves.

Formation Expert (Complete Warrior). Tactical feat gives you three options: 1) "Lock Shields", +1 AC bonus if you have allies on both sides with shields, 2) "Step into the Breach", if an ally in your shield wall goes down, you can immediately use a move action to move into their spot, and 3) "Wall of Polearms", which gives you a +2 attack bonus if you and your adjacent allies manage to wield something that conforms to an idiotic list of what this feat thinks is a polearm. This idiotic list contains only two one-handed weapons (shortspear and trident) that can be used with a shield, so it doesn't entirely work with Phalanx Fighting, but there may be some work-arounds for that.

Shield Wall (Heroes of Battle). When you and an adjacent ally are using a shield, your shield bonus increases by 2.

There are two feats in the Miniatures Handbook, Shieldmate and Improved Shieldmate, but they are stupid and useless to you. (They grant a shield bonus to an adjacent ally, but it doesn't stack with existing shield bonuses.)

Shield Wall works well enough with either Phalanx Fighting and Formation Expert, but the last two have issues as Phalanx Fighting needs you to wield a light weapon. Some workarounds:

Wield a smaller-sized shortspear or trident. You get a -2 weapon size penalty, but the +2 attack bonus from Wall of Polearms cancels this.

Feycraft weapons are a thing (DMGII). By strict RAW, this doesn't work because outside of the base weapon damage and Weapon Finesse, the weapon isn't treated as light for any other purpose. Still, getting a handwave here might be an easy sell with the DM.

The text of Phalanx Fighting says you must be "using a heavy shield and a light weapon" but doesn't specify that you must always attack with the light weapon. A viking wearing armor spikes is "using" them, and they are a light weapon. (Or if you prefer the traditional but anachronistic horned helmet, there's one on Races of Faerun p. 155 that can be considered a light weapon.) So give your viking a shortspear or trident to attack with, and they can use Phalanx Fighting and Formation Expert together.

[Ruethgar]

All of these options are making me want to remake a couple of my defensive characters.
Trait: Unearthed Arcana

Cautious: +1 AC self while defensive

Crusader: Tome of Battle

Iron Guard's Glare: +4 AC all adjacent

Paladin: Champions of Valor

Defend the Weak: +combat expertise one target

Bodyguard: Dragon #310

Cover: +shield and combat expertise to adjacent(intent: both on a single or shield to one combat to another, RAW: free action applicable to all near)
Clear the Way: when defensive, Cleave and Great Cleave as bonus feats

Feats: in order Drow of the Underdark, Shinning South, Dragon Magazine #301, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Warrior, Oriental Adventures, Heroes of Battle,

Constant GuardianDotU: -2 Hit, +2 AC one target
Allied DefenseSS: +combat expertise+cautious all adjacent
(Improved, Expert, Protective)ParryDrM301: spend AoO to roll att+4(assuming light weapon) vs melee attack against adjacent ally or self to nullify attack
Deadly DefenseCS: +1d6 dmg when defensive
Defensive ThrowCW: If dodge target misses, make trip attempt
Phalanx FightingCW: +1 AC w/ heavy +2 more and +1 Ref if shield partner(Dvati)
Formation ExpertCW: "Lock Shields", +1 AC if flanked by shields, "Step into the Breach", if ally in shield wall falls, immediate move action to their spot, "Wall of Polearms", +2 hit if you and adjacent allies wield shortspear or trident
Reckless OffenseOA: +2 hit, -4 AC
Shield WallHoB. When you and adjacent ally using shield, your shield bonus increases by 2.

Must be using light weapon and shortspear/trident in some form to fully qualify(better for parry too), options: Unarmed, Armor Spikes, Horned HelpRoF, Size -1 Shortspear/Trident

Edit: So jamming all of these into a build let's say as a Dvati with two basic, unenchanted, heavy shields. +19 AC all adjacent, +7 AC one target, +4 AC self, -1 hit self, +1 Ref self, +1d6 dmg self

If you don't care about attacking, take -2 more to hit and +4 more AC to get rid of Reckless Offense, however Stone Power is also a very good feat to have here so it would not really be removing the Power Attack requirement. Defensive throw is another situational, if you go agaisnt single target a lot go for it, but otherwise I wouldn't. The parry line is pricey, retrain/shuffle away your Armor Proficiency feats to get them. If you keep paladin, you get 4, however the variant fighter and crusader only give you 1 each and if you get a variant class monk you can get one more.

Passive Way Monk 1/Bodyguard 2/Golden Cup Paladin 1/Crusader 2 on a human
Human: Combat Reflexes
First: Parry
Flaw: Expert Parry
Flaw: Improved Parry
Monk: Combat Expertise
Bodyguard: Cover
Bodyguard: Clear the Way
Third: Phalanx Fighting
Paladin: Defend the Weak
Sixth: Protective Parry
Retrain: Allied Defense, Deadly Defense, Constant Guardian, Shield Wall, Stone Power

[Athear]

so heres what I came up with with your guys help and it is disgustingly OP

so first start with a human bone creature getting: Dark vision 60ft, Immune to mind effecting spells and spell like abilities, immune to poison, immune to sleep, immune too disease, disease, immune to death effects Immune to necrotic effects, immune to critical hits, immune to ability drain. no need for fort saves cold immunity.

Feats: human: combat reflex's, 1st: shield specialization (heavy wooden shield), (bonus feet) active shield defence, (bonus): Improved shield bash, (3) agile shield fighter, (4)shield ward, (6) divine shield (ACF) armour of god.
thats the nasty bit since as a undead you are immune to mind effecting spells your will save is largely un important.

[Warrnan]

Vikings carry and use these things: Round Shield usually wooden, one handed sword, one handed/throwing spear.

The shield and the sword are the easy part, heavy wooden shield and longsword respectively. The spear is where it gets weird. The shortspear is very close to what we want. It's tossable and usable with a shield. The "spear" in the phb would be perfect with one minor change. Make it into a one handed martial weapon as well as a two handed simple weapon.

This has always been my gripe when building phalanxes and shield walls in dnd. No good spear for using with a shield.

Enter the trident. Tossable. 1d8 w/ x2 crit. One handed. Double damage vs a charge. Bingo! Looks silly but change the fluff to make it one large point with 2 small barbs. Perfect. Only throwable 10 but close enough.

Now for the build. As everyone knows, 2 handed weapons are generally King in DND. We are looking for a different style of combat.

In many games the guy with the shield tries to get his AC as high as possible and expends his resources to that end becoming nigh unkillable but also unimportant. We want our enemies to take notice of us.

Agile shield fighter and improved shield bash along with attack of opportunity generating feats combined with status effect feats will make you a black hole in the battlefield.

Karmic strike and knockdown will allow you multiple occasions to knock your for on their butt. Forcing multiple trip checks will eventually succeed even if they are stronger.

I usually go bb2/ ftr4 to start with for pounce and improved trip without combat expertise or 13 int. Combat reflexes is very important in making this work.

[Athear]

okay so I got two feats left I need to harden my character against turn/rebuke undead.

[Athear]

So I'm revisiting this Idea form level one up. so far I have the feats unarmed combat, shield specialization, shield ward.
I know that, the viking sheild wall was a great strategies but it doesn't work well in D&D. the other part of Viking warfair was the randomness of it, they would use what ever was at hand to fight. so I'm trying to represent that.
so I'm looking for feats to increase AC and represent the very creative ways that vikings fight.

Tome of battle Is banned, Book of exalted cheese is grey listed, Dragon magazine is also banned.

[Inevitability]

So I'm revisiting this Idea form level one up. so far I have the feats unarmed combat, shield specialization, shield ward.
I know that, the viking sheild wall was a great strategies but it doesn't work well in D&D. the other part of Viking warfair was the randomness of it, they would use what ever was at hand to fight. so I'm trying to represent that.
so I'm looking for feats to increase AC and represent the very creative ways that vikings fight.

Once a thread has been inactive for several months, you should create a new one if you have new questions, not post in the old one.

EDIT: Also, 'Book of Exalted Cheese'? Really?

[Echch]

Do you get LA-buyoff? If yes, Cursts are incredibly hard to turn. They also have fast healing 1, Immunity to Cold and Fire, gain SR, are Undead with all the benefits and have the Unkillable extraordinary quality, meaning you come back unless your body is utterly destroyed or someone beats your SR and succeeds on an additional caster level check against 10+HD with Remove Curse.

It has +3 LA, so you can buy it off if you plan on taking this to level 20.
This is suboptimal, but you will have no problems with turning whatsoever.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't know this was dead.

[Athear]

@ Dire_Stirge Sorry about the thread necromancy didn't really relies how long I had been away.

"Do you get LA-buyoff? If yes, Cursts are incredibly hard to turn. They also have fast healing 1, Immunity to Cold and Fire, gain SR, are Undead with all the benefits and have the Unkillable extraordinary quality, meaning you come back unless your body is utterly destroyed or someone beats your SR and succeeds on an additional caster level check against 10+HD with Remove Curse."

It has +3 LA, so you can buy it off if you plan on taking this to level 20.
This is suboptimal, but you will have no problems with turning whatsoever."

yeah but I'm revisiting the Idea for a 1st level game so LA is a no go. using a human for my viking. more just looking for feats that would either help boost my AC or help represent the sheer madness of Viking combat interms of how it seem to be made up as they went.