[Spoiler] Celestial Meetings

[SMDVogrin]

So, did anyone else wonder if Miko might run into Roy up there in the Celestial Realm? (assuming, of course, they end up in the same place)

Also the possibility of running into Shojo also exists, now that I think about it. Could be one heck of a reunion up there, especially with Soon or one of the Gods playing referee...

(and having Soon or the Gods drop hints would be an interesting way to set up the post-Blue plot...)

[RobbyPants]

Also the possibility of running into Shojo also exists, now that I think about it. Could be one heck of a reunion up there, especially with Soon or one of the Gods playing referee...
As Belkar noted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), Shojo is most likely in a Chaotic Good plane.

As for whether or not Miko and Roy meet, there are three planes that could qualify for Lawful Good (assuming Rich is using the standard D&D Cosmology).

[Surfing HalfOrc]

As Belkar noted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), Shojo is most likely in a Chaotic Good plane.

As for whether or not Miko and Roy meet, there are three planes that could qualify for Lawful Good (assuming Rich is using the standard D&D Cosmology).

The link has one of my favorite Belkar lines!

"-sipping single malt scotch and smoking cigars made from poorly-worded legal documents."

It's good to be Chaotic Good. Good deeds, without all the overhead of laws and social restrictions!

[NeonRonin]

I'm still wondering whether or not Heaven has a waiting room; someone in another thread mentioned that idea, based off Beetlejuice. Maybe the newly dead have to hang around for a day before being assigned to the appropriate Outer Plane. So Miko arrives, sees the waiting room divided into 'Good dead' and 'Evil dead' areas... and on the Good side, there's Roy in an ugly chair reading a boring magazine. (Think the dentist's office)

:miko: Greenhilt? What in the name of the Twelve Gods are YOU doing here?

:roy: *sigh* Wonderful. My day just went from worse to MUCH worse.

[Tolkien_Freak]

I'm still wondering whether or not Heaven has a waiting room; someone in another thread mentioned that idea, based off Beetlejuice. Maybe the newly dead have to hang around for a day before being assigned to the appropriate Outer Plane. So Miko arrives, sees the waiting room divided into 'Good dead' and 'Evil dead' areas... and on the Good side, there's Roy in an ugly chair reading a boring magazine. (Think the dentist's office)

:miko: Greenhilt? What in the name of the Twelve Gods are YOU doing here?

:roy: *sigh* Wonderful. My day just went from worse to MUCH worse.

That is funny. It'd be funnier if they ended up in the same plane.
Miko and Roy stuck together for eternity... perfect.

[holywhippet]

That is funny. It'd be funnier if they ended up in the same plane.
Miko and Roy stuck together for eternity... perfect.

Might not be so bad. She might finally loosen up a bit.

[Corwin Weber]

That is funny. It'd be funnier if they ended up in the same plane.
Miko and Roy stuck together for eternity... perfect.

Roy's LG. He doesn't deserve hell.

[Shatteredtower]

Roy's LG. He doesn't deserve hell.Wherever Eugene is, there is Hell for Roy.

[Rhyeira]

I'm still wondering whether or not Heaven has a waiting room.

Well, at least in the FR universe, there is something like a waiting room, a plane where the souls of the dead wait until a messenger sent by the god they served in life comes to collect them (at least that's what happens to most of the souls, there are other things that might happen, too).

[Breaon]

Well, at least in the D&D universe, there is something like a waiting room, a plane where the souls of the dead wait until a messenger sent by the god they served in life comes to collect them (at least that's what happens to most of the souls, there are other things that might happen, too).


I thought that was specifically a Forgotten Realms cosmology thing.

[Rhyeira]

Erm, yes... I should have been more precise, sorry.

[Holy_Knight]

The link has one of my favorite Belkar lines!

"-sipping single malt scotch and smoking cigars made from poorly-worded legal documents."

It's good to be Chaotic Good. Good deeds, without all the overhead of laws and social restrictions!

This is something that has been nagging at me ever since Belkar said that...
Why does everyone assume that Belkar has any clue what he's talking about? Belkar's idea of what makes a fun afterlife comes from the perspective of an evil character. As such, he's a pretty poor source for telling us what a good person's afterlife would be like, even if it is a Chaotic Good one.

And to answer the original topic, yes, I think there's a high chance that Miko and Roy will run into each other, and I hope that they do.

[Morty]

This is something that has been nagging at me ever since Belkar said that...
Why does everyone assume that Belkar has any clue what he's talking about? Belkar's idea of what makes a fun afterlife comes from the perspective of an evil character. As such, he's a pretty poor source for telling us what a good person's afterlife would be like, even if it is a Chaotic Good one.


But do we have any reason not to trust Belkar? I think that Shojo was most likely CG -he was perfectly willing to bend laws for greater good and was annoyed by paladins' code- so I guess Belkar is right here. He's chaotic after all, so he's got much in common with Shojo. Also, Hinjo and Roy trusted him.

[Bogardan_Mage]

This is something that has been nagging at me ever since Belkar said that...
Why does everyone assume that Belkar has any clue what he's talking about? Belkar's idea of what makes a fun afterlife comes from the perspective of an evil character. As such, he's a pretty poor source for telling us what a good person's afterlife would be like, even if it is a Chaotic Good one.
Does it matter? The point is that it's funny, not that lord Shojo actually is drinking single malt scotch and smoking Bender's favourite cigar. Even Belkar doesn't say that's definitely what he's doing, only "probably". The important things (i.e. those that can possibly have an effect, however small):

a) Shojo is chaotic good.
b) Shojo is dead.

Belkar's idea of a chaotic good afterlife has no impact on either of these facts.

[Holy_Knight]

But do we have any reason not to trust Belkar? I think that Shojo was most likely CG -he was perfectly willing to bend laws for greater good and was annoyed by paladins' code- so I guess Belkar is right here. He's chaotic after all, so he's got much in common with Shojo. Also, Hinjo and Roy trusted him.


Does it matter? The point is that it's funny, not that lord Shojo actually is drinking single malt scotch and smoking Bender's favourite cigar. Even Belkar doesn't say that's definitely what he's doing, only "probably". The important things (i.e. those that can possibly have an effect, however small):

a) Shojo is chaotic good.
b) Shojo is dead.

Belkar's idea of a chaotic good afterlife has no impact on either of these facts.

I think you guys are missing my point. A lot of people on the forums have seemed to think that Belkar's description was a good portrayal of what a Chaotic Good afterlife would be life. I'm saying that in fact, it's probably not that way.

[Ampersand]

That is funny. It'd be funnier if they ended up in the same plane.

Why stop there?

"Due to overcrowding, we're assigning the two of you to the same cabin."
:miko: & :roy: "Aw crap."
"Here's the key. Just turn down Celestia Boulevard, 7,321st one on the left, right next to the elevator and the malfunctioning Ice machine."
:roy: Could this get any worse?
"Oh, and the current tenet, Mr. Eugene Greenhilt, has been notified of your arrival, and says he's preparing a 'special' welcome."
:miko: "What is this word 'sitcom' that just popped into my head?"

[David Argall]

All sorts of interesting possibilities, but they are not going to happen. Miko is gone and any use of her is questionable. And Roy heaven time just distracts from the rest of the part.

[Mordokai]

I posted this in another topic, so I'll just quote myself.


I just got this crazy idea. What if Roy was somehow sent to Baator after his death? An honest mistake, you would think. He is lawful, and good and evil are so close together, hey, we made a mistake, here's a cookie for you and no hard feelings, yes? :smallbiggrin: Then after Miko gets there and sees Roy pouting on rock, surrounded by devils it goes somethin like this:

:miko: "Where, where am I? What is this place?"

/notices Roy, encircled with few horned devils who make fun of him, gets the general idea.

:miko: "You! I knew you were aligned with the lich and his goblin servant! Admit it, evildoer!"

:roy: "sigh" "It just doesn't get any better, doesn't it?"

Hell, it isn't very possible, but it sure would be funny.

[Majorman]

I give you two reasons why Roy and Miko won't meet in the celestial realm:
1) Roy is LG, and Miko is not LG any more (remember - she has fallen). As Elan noted in "Song for the departed" there is no way characters of different alignment can not meet in whatever afterlife awaits them.
2) Miko and Roy have different patron deities. Remember how the twelve gods sent Thor and Odin out of their territory when the latter wanted to help Thundershield?

[UndeadJames]

Miko isn't going to a lawful good plane. Shojo said that Windstriker would try to visit her as often as he could, and as Windstriker's home is in the celestial realms, that means she ain't going there.

[Alex Kidd]

Okay for the last two posters two things.

1. She FELL from being a PALADIN, that requires one act, even an accidental one, an alignment change requires a LOT more. Miko is still almost certainly Lawful Good, just more lawful than good. Plus the Saphire Guard wouldn't be able to lead her to soewhere outside of the celestial realms, nor could Windstriker visit.

2. There are three different planes for lawful good people, the plane the paladins and by extension Windstriker are likely to go to the Celestial Realms, is big and militarized, meaning schedules and the like, coupled with the fact hopping between even neighbouring planes recquires the use of a gate(which is likely regulated) that's why Windstriker can only visit when it can.

And if my memeory serves me Belkar's description of the good after life isn't too far off.

One Arborea,is basically a hippy commune where you spend your days running around naked, getting into orgies with elven girls, dancing and partying to the greatest bards ever to exist, and drinking with the bacchae. The other is the viking one where you spend your time drinking, smoking, wenching and fighting for fun. So essentially a choice between a perpetual pub crawl with no hangovers and an eternal Woodstock. I forget what the third is like.

Ontopic, I like the idea of Roy meeting Miko and Eugene in the afterlife.
Celestial of some lesser kind: Welcome to Bytopia friend your accomadations are just over here, I'll let you introduce yourself to your neighbour.
Eugene: So swinging your big sword didn't deal with the lich did it?
Roy : DAD!?
Same Celestial: And your place is over here Miss.....
Miko: GREENHILT!!!!!
Roy (digging frantically at the ground): No wait, I long for nothingness of limbo, let me out, let me out!!!

[Wych]

As someone who never played any form of D&D can someone with a better understanding of the rules explain something to me. Does one evil deed necessarily dictate an alignment change, or just a lack of paladinhood?

EDIT: nvm took too long posting and guy ahead answered :)

[jamroar]

I give you two reasons why Roy and Miko won't meet in the celestial realm:
1) Roy is LG, and Miko is not LG any more (remember - she has fallen). As Elan noted in "Song for the departed" there is no way characters of different alignment can not meet in whatever afterlife awaits them.
2) Miko and Roy have different patron deities. Remember how the twelve gods sent Thor and Odin out of their territory when the latter wanted to help Thundershield?

1) Fallen paladin does not imply no longer lawful good. Any one evil act(which does not have to change your alignment), an act grossly violating the Paladin code of conduct, consistently ignoring the code of conduct, or any act generally pissing off your sponsor gods is enough to make you fall. I suspect Miko is guilty of 2 and 4 here.

2) Tiger stopped Thor from directly abusing the rules of divine magic for Durkon like he did back in Cliffport (i.e. adding houseruled effects to his spells). As for why, maybe doing so aggravates the unraveling of reality or something.The gods are not limited in their jurisdiction, otherwise Durkon wouldn't be able to cast spells in the South at all. Also. specific divine realms are still on the same plane in core (but not FR), I think.

[UndeadJames]

Miko isn't going to a lawful good plane. Shojo said that Windstriker would try to visit her as often as he could, and as Windstriker's home is in the celestial realms, that means she ain't going there.

Soon, Soon! Who the f**k is Shojo? I must have been half-asleep when I wrote that.

So you're saying that someone could kill an innocent octogenarian, fail to atone, and still go to the celestial as a lawful good petitioner? I think not.

[Morty]

I think you guys are missing my point. A lot of people on the forums have seemed to think that Belkar's description was a good portrayal of what a Chaotic Good afterlife would be life. I'm saying that in fact, it's probably not that way.

Again, there's no reason not to trust Belkar. He's evil, but he's chaotic, too. And he probably knows what good people do, even if he never does this. So I guess his statement about how CG afterlife looks like is more or less accurate, at least in Chaotic part.
But yeah, Roy meeting up with Miko would be hilarious. He's got no chance of meeting his father though, since I very much doubt Eugene is Lawful Good. He's Something Neutral at best.

[Ampersand]

So you're saying that someone could kill an innocent octogenarian, fail to atone, and still go to the celestial as a lawful good petitioner? I think not.

Why not? I don't see a Helm of Opposite Alignment on Miko's head. How many times does it need to be said that one act doesn't change alignment?

At best, Miko's committed two evil acts that we've been shown: Killing Shojo and attacking Hinjo (even that one's debatable). Only the most hard assed DM (or one who has it out for the character in question) would enforce an alignment change over two acts, particularly given there's no follow up pattern of immorality once Miko runs out of Crazy Juice.

[UndeadJames]

You're ignoring one hard fact in all of this, Soon almost all out says that Miko is not going to the celestial realms by saying that Windstriker will "visit as often as he is able", meaning that he and Miko won't be on the same plane.

[jamroar]

You're ignoring one hard fact in all of this, Soon almost all out says that Miko is not going to the celestial realms by saying that Windstriker will "visit as often as he is able", meaning that he and Miko won't be on the same plane.

The fact that Windstriker _can_ visit and is "waiting for her" in the first place strongly suggests they will be on the same plane. Celestial mounts don't have the ability to planeshift by themselves, they have to be called to and dismissed from a plane by the paladin they are bound to, and Miko no longer has that particular ability.

[Kreistor]

Why not? I don't see a Helm of Opposite Alignment on Miko's head. How many times does it need to be said that one act doesn't change alignment?


And you think only one act lead to her Fall?

Her alignment was always on the cusp for one reason -- hubris. "I am special". That indicates a selfishness, not of a single act, but of her entire being. Selfishness is, ultimately, an evil. Since this flaw was inherent in her psyche and clearly guided her actions, her lawful good alignment was in jeopardy. Shen it took her to the point of violating multiple parts of her Code (not just evil, but killing her Master was dishonourable as well, regardless of justification), it had clearly become more important than her actions.

Further acts, including attacking Hinjo, and an unarmed Belkar, indicate that she had begun acting according to personal desire, not a code. Leaving prison may have obeyed one section of her oath, but it violated the orders of her superior, which is not a lawful good choice -- it's lawful convenient or, in other words, lawful evil. As Soon says, blind obedience to a Code is not a good thing. Miko swore an oath, and in the end she does not get to judge how her acts are interpreted in relation to that oath, the gods are.

She believed in only the parts of her oath that were most convenient to her at the time, spinning her view based on whatever sign was the most convenient. This made her unpredictable, which is a sign of a chaotic alignment.

No, Miko is clearly not what she believes herself to be. Code has become convenience, whim has become fact. These are not the trappings of law and good, but chaos and evil.

[Firestar27]

Why stop there?

"Due to overcrowding, we're assigning the two of you to the same cabin."
:miko: & :roy: "Aw crap."
"Here's the key. Just turn down Celestia Boulevard, 7,321st one on the left, right next to the elevator and the malfunctioning Ice machine."
:roy: Could this get any worse?
"Oh, and the current tenet, Mr. Eugene Greenhilt, has been notified of your arrival, and says he's preparing a 'special' welcome."
:miko: "What is this word 'sitcom' that just popped into my head?"
The bolding is mine.
Is that a reference to Weird Al's Everything You Know is Wrong? The part where he goes, "Well, he let me into heaven anyway. But I get the room next to the noisy ice machine for all eternity..."

[Firestar27]

And you think only one act lead to her Fall?
Maybe only one act led to her fall, however, those must be neutral acts. You don't lose paladinhood for neutral acts. However, just one evil or chaotic act will lose the paladinhood. She is not Chaotic or Evil, because she only did one or two Chaotic or Evil acts. (It is debatable if there were more. Even if there were, it takes more than a few. It has to be consistant evil or chaotic acts, over a long period of time, to constitute an alignment change to Evil or Chaotic. She may be Neutral Good ((very unlikely because of her whole "sacred duty")), Lawful Good ((a possiblity)), or Lawful Neutral ((another possibility)).)

Her alignment was always on the cusp for one reason -- hubris. "I am special". That indicates a selfishness, not of a single act, but of her entire being. Selfishness is, ultimately, an evil.
No, Selfishness is neutral according to DnD rules. Someone who will only save his friends, family, or him/herself (that includes saving the world because you want to survive) is neutral, not evil. (A lot of people are forgetting about the neutral part of alignment. It isn't just a choice between Good and Evil as Miko believes. It is a choice between Good, Neutral, and Evil.)

Since this flaw was inherent in her psyche and clearly guided her actions, her lawful good alignment was in jeopardy. Shen it took her to the point of violating multiple parts of her Code (not just evil, but killing her Master was dishonourable as well, regardless of justification), it had clearly become more important than her actions.
I agree with you that killing Shojo was dishonourable and evil. And that her alignment was in jeopardy. However, when you are in jeoperdy, you are not doomed. It means you still have a chance. Miko's alignment was only in jeopardy, it is unclear whether her alignment changed or not.


Further acts, including attacking Hinjo, and an unarmed Belkar, indicate that she had begun acting according to personal desire, not a code. Leaving prison may have obeyed one section of her oath, but it violated the orders of her superior, which is not a lawful good choice -- it's lawful convenient or, in other words, lawful evil.
No. Not evil. Neutral. Say it with me. Neutral.
Although the lawful bit of leaving prison is debatable. But leaving prison isn't evil. Elan did it because he believed he had to save Haley. Miko left prison because she believed she was commanded by the gods to save the world.


As Soon says, blind obedience to a Code is not a good thing. Miko swore an oath, and in the end she does not get to judge how her acts are interpreted in relation to that oath, the gods are.

She believed in only the parts of her oath that were most convenient to her at the time, spinning her view based on whatever sign was the most convenient. This made her unpredictable, which is a sign of a chaotic alignment.
True, although she tried to spin things so that they would be in line with her code. (According to her, killing Shojo was protecting the city and gate, attacking Hinjo was letting her to survive in order to protect the city, etc.) That doesn't mean she was right. If she acted chaotically, then it was when she was trying to be lawful.


No, Miko is clearly not what she believes herself to be. Code has become convenience, whim has become fact. These are not the trappings of law and good, but chaos and evil.
No. Not evil. Chaotic people might not have a code and might only do things based on whim (not all chaotic people, but some). But their whim might be to help people. That is chaotic good. Doing things on whim means chaos, not evil.
Miko believed that law = good, and that chaos = evil. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html.
"I can think of no other lawful purpose for transporting such wealth. What foul deed led to this ill-gotten bounty?" She thought that if the purpose wasn't lawful, then it was a "foul" and evil deed. That is not true, as proven by chaotic good people, and lawful evil people.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

You're ignoring one hard fact in all of this, Soon almost all out says that Miko is not going to the celestial realms by saying that Windstriker will "visit as often as he is able", meaning that he and Miko won't be on the same plane.

Celestia is divided into seven zones, with the Heavenly City at the top of zone six, and the Illuminated Heaven above the city. Paladins who don't fall go to the Heavenly City, which is where I would assume the Heavenly Paladin's Stables are located.

Those who don't meet the strict paladin code have to start lower in Celestia, and work their way up the mountainside.

Windstriker will probably be reassigned to a new paladin, but will visit with Miko when ever he(?) isn't on the Prime Material Plane.

Returning is possible, as shown by Eugene Greenhilt's four encores, but it seems optional for the person. Shojo decided against a repeat, and it's hard to say what Roy or Miko will decide to do. It's also hard to guess if Hinjo will spring for the rez spell. O-Chul's testimony (if AC/SG finds him in time) may have some influence on whether or not Miko gets a second chance.

So lots of things are currently in... well, possibly Limbo, possibly somewhere else.

[Kreistor]

No, Selfishness is neutral according to DnD rules.

Selfishness relative to monetary or material matters is neutral, sure. Miko isn't anywhere presented as selfish with relation to money.

But we're talking about selfishness relative to killing matters. Belkar, for instance, kills for selfish reasons. That's an evil act. Miko kills for selfish reasons. That's evil too.

Miko's delusions were designed such that she justified any act based on her desires. Justification had ceased to come from her code: it now came from her sense of specialness -- her hubris. All she did to Shojo was what she'd already been doing, it's just that what she had been doing had aligned with her Code, so no one noticed. Her delusions, as false as tehy were, had actually been working out, giving her the comforting notion that they were god-inspired.


Maybe only one act led to her fall, however, those must be neutral acts. You don't lose paladinhood for neutral acts.

You don't maintain your alignment by performing neutral acts on a regular basis, either. You Fall for losing your alignment.

To be good, you must perform beneficial acts for good reasons. Miko's flaw is hubris. She performs acts that are beneficial and positive, but she is no longer doing them for righteous reasons, she's performing them because they are her duty, or because the acts proves her specialness to herself and others. You're welcome to feel that is a neutral concept, but that still pushes Miko away from her alignment. Such acts pile up and leads to a Fall through complacency.

One act caused her Fall in this case, but many acts lead her to the decision behind that act. One does not suddenly abandon your Code to perform such an act, if you hadn't already been moving along those lines in the first place.

[Forevergrey]

But we're talking about selfishness relative to killing matters. Belkar, for instance, kills for selfish reasons. That's an evil act. Miko kills for selfish reasons. That's evil too.


Killing is a selfish act, yes, but not automaticly an evil one. It may be selfish to end a life to prolong your own (and you better belive it all comes down to that alone when the cold, hard steel is drawn), but if that is the case then only the selfish live to tell the tales.

Evil is ultimatly using other people as objects without empathy or consideration.

For this reason, a soldier with a dozen plus kills under his belt may still be a good man, while the preist of the town who condemns all conflict, and denounces all who have taken part in them as evil is evil himself, as he is trying to swindle a dying, lonely old lady to willing her estate to him.

[Gavin Sage]

You know simple alignment may not be a factor in where Miko ends up. We don't really know how OOTSverse deals with the afterlife. In Forgotten Realms for example, you can end up in the Fugue Plane whatever your actual alignment. Especially having betrayed her faith and gods, Miko may be kicked out by the 12 Gods from the Celestial Realms despite still being LG.

[EvilElitest]

All sorts of interesting possibilities, but they are not going to happen. Miko is gone and any use of her is questionable. And Roy heaven time just distracts from the rest of the part.

Not at all, they are both very major characters and any intereacting they have will mean major character and plot devolpment.



No. Not evil. Neutral. Say it with me. Neutral.
Although the lawful bit of leaving prison is debatable. But leaving prison isn't evil. Elan did it because he believed he had to save Haley. Miko left prison because she believed she was commanded by the gods to save the world.
Its a balenceing act basiclly, while she was driven completly by selfish goals, her actions were good. That would make her nuetral, but before the fall, dispite her many flaws she was good, just barely. I think Keistor's point is that at this point she has tipped over the edge and her selfish acts are just that, selfish, and so she is most likely LN
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