WildFire (Fire-dedicated builds with questions about rulings)

[Citan]

Hi all!

I've wondering for some time how to build a "pure fire" damage dealer.
So far my best build, using only Handbook and EE companions was this:
Draconic Sorcerer 6: obviously for CHA on fire damage.
Wizard 14: to get all nice Fire related spells AND INT on damage and Maximum damage and use Elemental Bane occasionally.
And Elemental Adept feat (thanks Dalebert for pointing this miss).
You obviously don't get access to the highest damage dealer spells, you you get (with good stats) +10 to your fire cantrips and spells, with metamagic to help.

A melee variant was making a classic Paladin build using Elemental Weapon to boost his damage with CHA from Sorcerer (if only it's legit, which I think so by RAW but maybe not by RAI).

But now, considering all the new options (especially GFB from SCA and Undying Warlock) I was wondering if, for "mundane" fire damage, the best wouldn't be this:

Undying Warlock 2 (+CHA to Fire and Radiant damage spells)
Draconic Sorcerer 6 (+CHA to Fire damage spells)
Devotion Paladin 3 (+CHA to hit, searing smite spell, Fighting Style, weapon proficiencies)
Arcane Cleric 9 (+WIS to cleric cantrip including GreenFlameBlade from wizard, all nice spells from Cleric such as Spirit Guardians, Flame Strike, Raise Dead).
GWM feat.
Pretty nasty MAD mix I agree, but if you analyze...


Cast your Oath (+CHA to hit) + Divine Favor (+1d4 radiant) on a dead turn. IF all the following works (which may be far-stretched, no doubt on it, waiting for opinions about RAW, RAI, RoCool and Rules as Balanced...), with GFB at highest level...

You hit an enemy for:
* weapon (1d10)
* +10 (GWM feat)
* +1d4 + CHA (Divine Favor being radiant >> CHA Warlock damage ?)
* +WIS (GFB as Cleric cantrip)
* + 2d8 (GFB extra fire damage) +CHA (Warlock on fire) + CHA (Sorcerer on fire).
For an average of 5,5+ 10 + 2,5 + 5 + 5 + (4,5*2) + 5 + 5 = 46.

Or you could just cast Spirit Guardians and inflict Radiant damage + CHA every turn (again, is it legit?).

Build also synergizes with Guiding Bolt, Fireball, Scorching Ray, Flame Strike and Searing Smite, making you balanced and efficient at dealing damage and healing (Raise Dead).

An alternative would be dropping Arcane Cleric altogether to up Warlock up to 7 (Elemental Bane), Paladin up to 9 (Elemental Weapon), going Evocation Wizard 10 (Absorb Elements, Elemental Bane and +INT to evocation spell etc but requires INT) or Bard 10 (any combination of aforementioned spells).
The idea then being to maintain either Elemental Weapon (for a weapon-oriented with Extra Attack) or Elemental Bane (for caster).

Still, for Elemental Weapon, it again depends on how you rule the class bonus interaction. Doesn't work? Works once? Works every hit?


So, does it work? For any of these ideas to work, it requires allowing that...
1. Spells like Spirit Guardians, Divine Favor, Elemental Weapon, Elemental Bane etc (aka spells that deal indirect damage) are compatible with features such as Draconic Elemental Affinity or Undying Warlock 1 (+ CHA damage on spell damage of a specific type).
2. AND that the feature activates on each instance of the damage (for Divine Favor, Elemental Weapon and such) and not only the first hit after the cast.

What do you think would be RAW/RAI?
What would you houserule in your games?
Personally, I'd tend to allow it at least for the first build even if it's against the twitter rulings for Divine Favor, considering how hard the player would work to make it, and how much he disregards: he's basically an "empowered half-caster", although he does get smiting when needed and a few nice spells.
For the Elemental Bane alternative, everything should work (except I would not consider that Elemental Bane gets added damage "on itself", because it's kind of a "indirect on indirect" damage -and it would just be too powerful). But it's really subjective.

Thanks for your comments. ;)

[Arkhios]

IMHO, unless any of the class features which grant an ability modifier to specific damage roll say something like "<insert class here> spells", they work by RAW to each and every spell you cast.

Additionally, note that it's not the Undying Patron from SCAG that grants CHA to fire and radiant damage, but the Undying Light Patron from UA (there's the distinct difference of 'light' and radiance about it).
About the warlock feature, I'm not entirely sure about the wording, but if it doesn't specify spell damage, then the CHA bonus should apply to all fire and radiant damage (including divine smite!)

As for how many times a damage bonus might apply to spells or attacks, I believe it's once per each time you roll for damage for the spell, so even the spells that deal DPR get it each time you roll for damage with them. Although spells such as Scorching Ray have been pointed out that you only get the bonus damage to one ray per casting of the spell.
Difference between Scorching Ray and Elemental Weapon in this regard is however, how long is their duration. With Scorching Ray you get multiple spell attacks with an instantaneous duration, while Elemental Weapon remains active for the whole time you maintain concentration, and attacking isn't included in the casting of the spell.

but, I don't have the books/PDF at hand right now, so I can't vouch for these being true.

[Dalebert]

If you're putting this much effort into optimizing for fire, I assume you're going to work in the Elemental Adept feat early on. Fire is the most highly resisted damage type, after all.

[Citan]

If you're putting this much effort into optimizing for fire, I assume you're going to work in the Elemental Adept feat early on. Fire is the most highly resisted damage type, after all.
Err, you're obviously right, totally forgot to list it in the initial build.
I didn't think to put it on the "new builds" though because... 1) at least one of them is very MAD 2) you get also strong radiant options in case you encounter fire resistant enemies and don"t have Elemental Bane.
But if one could afford it, indeed it should be taken.

And yes, in parallel to my own homebrew class which revolves around elemental energy, I'm trying to build some "element-dedicated" NPC for my campaign who are not just "Sorcerer/Wizard Genasi". :)

IMHO, unless any of the class features which grant an ability modifier to specific damage roll say something like "<insert class here> spells", they work by RAW to each and every spell you cast.

As for how many times a damage bonus might apply to spells or attacks, I believe it's once per each time you roll for damage for the spell, so even the spells that deal DPR get it each time you roll for damage with them. Although spells such as Scorching Ray have been pointed out that you only get the bonus damage to one ray per casting of the spell.
Thanks for your reply. Whether your vision of RAW is right or not, the way you answered let me think you wouldn't find aberrant or overpowered to allow it anyways... Which was the most important to me (balance). :)