Of Sandcastles and Trains

[mgshamster]

I'm in an interesting conundrum that I've never found myself in before.

As the primary GM for my gaming group, I often find that I don't have the time to create my own campaigns and adventures. So I run a lot of premade adventures. For the past several years, we've been playing Pathfinder and have found their Adventure Paths (AP) to be very railroady. We were getting sick of it.

Since starting 5e, we've been running Out of the Abyss, which has a strong sandbox feel to it. My players are loving it; finally an adventure where player/character decisions really matter and truly alter the course of the adventure!

But last night our newest (and oldest) player asked for me to force the story to go in the direction I want it to go in, rather than the direction it would naturally go based on player/character decisions. He wants something less sandbox and much more railroad. He wants to experience an illusion of choice (his words) where he experiences the story I think is cool while at the same time letting him think he's really the one making the decision. I was baffled by this. I immediately thought, "Do you seriously want less Player Agency?" I took his criticism and said I'd think on it.

I've since talked with my other players and they were all surprised by his comments as well. They love the idea that what they do matters and they do not want a railroad even disguised under an illusion of choice. I feel the same way.

Have you ever had to GM for someone who doesn't want to make decisions, doesn't want to have agency, and just wants to be told where to go and what to do?

I suspect that he is saying this because he's trying to stay true to his character. His character hates the underdark and wants to escape, so his character will make whatever decision he can to get out. But the player wants to experience a cool story and is afraid that he won't get to experience it if his character is just going to leave. There's an obvious question lurking around the corner: "Why don't you just change your character to make him want to stay?" And my answer to that is, "I don't know." That's what I would do as a player; but it's not what he's doing.

What advice do you have?

[Drackolus]

Railroad only him into the actions of the party. Don't know anything about the other characters, so I can't get more specific than that... But try to find a way to make the character follow the party.

[Theodoxus]

That's my advice as well. Don't let him be the party face - don't let him be the party scout. The character wants to escape, but outside of maybe whining to the 'guy in charge', doesn't actively work on escaping. He follows the railroad built by the other players - this removes his agency, while not affecting theirs.

The only thing I'd caution (which probably won't be an issue if he's as seasoned as it appears) is that his inaction is seen as ennui by the rest of the party - that the character becomes mistreated for not 'participating' in the experience of trying to escape.


Funny aside, I've had the opposite problem in the OotA group i'm playing with. I'm playing a rogue who's interested in being a chef. I've managed to alienate everyone but the mushroom and the derro by butchering and cooking most of the sentient things we've encountered. Because of this, our party has pretty much ran out of help - we've wandered for a week, avoiding the priestess' patrols as best we can. We have an underdark ranger, so we can't get lost - but it doesn't help to get to where we don't know we need to be. What started as a laugh, has quickly derailed into chaos - and I'm not sure it's salvageable. On the bright side, I've discovered a dozen recipes for drow, deep gnome and goblin sweetmeats, hams and headcheese...

I'd kill for a bit of rail-roadiness to get back on track and know what to do... I fear we'll just constantly wander around until we're swarmed by the priestess and her boy toys and we TPK to reset... well, that'll learn me :)

[mgshamster]

Railroad only him into the actions of the party. Don't know anything about the other characters, so I can't get more specific than that... But try to find a way to make the character follow the party.


That's my advice as well. Don't let him be the party face - don't let him be the party scout. The character wants to escape, but outside of maybe whining to the 'guy in charge', doesn't actively work on escaping. He follows the railroad built by the other players - this removes his agency, while not affecting theirs.

The only thing I'd caution (which probably won't be an issue if he's as seasoned as it appears) is that his inaction is seen as ennui by the rest of the party - that the character becomes mistreated for not 'participating' in the experience of trying to escape.

Ok, I like this. Try to focus on the other players' agency and force his character to tag along. One of my players even suggested a gaes. I even have some ideas for how to go about this without making it obvious.



Funny aside, I've had the opposite problem in the OotA group i'm playing with. I'm playing a rogue who's interested in being a chef. I've managed to alienate everyone but the mushroom and the derro by butchering and cooking most of the sentient things we've encountered. Because of this, our party has pretty much ran out of help - we've wandered for a week, avoiding the priestess' patrols as best we can. We have an underdark ranger, so we can't get lost - but it doesn't help to get to where we don't know we need to be. What started as a laugh, has quickly derailed into chaos - and I'm not sure it's salvageable. On the bright side, I've discovered a dozen recipes for drow, deep gnome and goblin sweetmeats, hams and headcheese...

I'd kill for a bit of rail-roadiness to get back on track and know what to do... I fear we'll just constantly wander around until we're swarmed by the priestess and her boy toys and we TPK to reset... well, that'll learn me :)

Do you know what city you're trying to get to? What level are you?

If you don't mind spoilers, you can read my campaign log to see what we did. My players are level 4 and went straight to Gracklstugh from the Velkynvelve slave pits.

It took my players about three sessions to get to Gracklstugh, and it was only that long because we had a player miss a key session for his character, so I dragged the journey out a little further so the player could experience the story I wanted him to experience (it was tied to his character's background).

[Sitri]

I haven't played OotA and don't know your games, but is it possible he is trying to beat around the bush while asking for more interesting things to happen? I have played sandbox games where it felt like there was a lot of nothing exciting going on; a whole world to explore with each bit as mundane as the last. Railroaded stories, for all their problems, at least try to make interesting things happen pretty regularly.

[mephnick]

Have you ever had to GM for someone who doesn't want to make decisions, doesn't want to have agency, and just wants to be told where to go and what to do?


Sure, there's tons of them out there. I've had players who have near panic attacks when they're forced to make simple decisions. It's actually a pretty common playing style.

A lot of DM's would be thrilled to be able to force their own story, but as a DM I actually hate this. I prefer to be neutral. I set up the world, roll on encounter tables, play monsters and NPCs in and out of combat and adjudicate rolls. That's it. I really don't want to have to force the players to adventure. I'd agree with the others that by mostly ignoring him when it comes to decision points, you're doing as much as you can to cater to both play styles, but it will never feel very natural.

[MaxWilson]

Instead of assuming that this guy wants to be railroaded, check with him and see if he's just interested in Narrative (story structure) as one of his types of fun. See http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/ for details.

And really, if he wants to be hit with a quest-bat, you can do that any time: give him a dream about all the horrible things that will happen if Zuggtmoy is not stopped, and giving him the feeling that this particular group of weirdos and outcasts are just the ones to stop it. Bam! Now his Underdark-loathing character has a narrative reason to be in the Underdark even though he hates it. He can call it a "prophecy" if he wants, even if other PCs dismiss it as "just a dream," but any way you slice it he's there now.

For extra fun, throw in some random details and symbolism ("a wilting yellow flower trampled underfoot by an angry mammoth") and later on in his adventures, throw in real-world events and correspond somehow to that symbolism or can be made to do so ("pudding king has a shambling mound made out of yellow moss who challenges the party to single combat"). That's just a random example off the top of my head, you can probably come up with better/more sophisticated/more artistic ones.

P.S. The best thing about the "you have a prophetic dream" style is that you as a DM get to not feel like you're railroading them, since they can totally ignore the dream if they want to and do what they want; while the PCs get to outsource their decision-making to whoever sent them the dream, so they don't have to feel responsible for what happens to them. Win/win situation.

[mgshamster]

I haven't played OotA and don't know your games, but is it possible he is trying to beat around the bush while asking for more interesting things to happen? I have played sandbox games where it felt like there was a lot of nothing exciting going on; a whole world to explore with each bit as mundane as the last. Railroaded stories, for all their problems, at least try to make interesting things happen pretty regularly.

I've been really trying to narrate over the boring parts and focusing on the exciting parts. However, you've made a good point that I hadn't thought of. Thank you.

[mgshamster]

Max, that's an excellent idea. Thank you. I can send him visions of what will happen to his beloved surface world if they aren't stopped and that could be an excellent motivation for him to try to stop them, whether he wants to be in the underdark or not.

[Theodoxus]

Do you know what city you're trying to get to? What level are you?

If you don't mind spoilers, you can read my campaign log to see what we did. My players are level 4 and went straight to Gracklstugh from the Velkynvelve slave pits.

It took my players about three sessions to get to Gracklstugh, and it was only that long because we had a player miss a key session for his character, so I dragged the journey out a little further so the player could experience the story I wanted him to experience (it was tied to his character's background).

We're 3rd level, though the DM accidentally fast-tracked us - only took 2 sessions to get there. We finished our third session on Saturday. We're headed to Bloopdiboop (however that's spelled) by way of some lake. Then off to a derro/duergar city. Most of the players are drow or half-drow, but we have one duergar who really wants out of the elf lands, and a high elf druid who really wants out of the underdark period. We lost Prince D (we renamed him Prince Harry) to a prison patrol, and as I mentioned, most of the others either died and were butchered, or ran off because I butchered former party members for breakfast hash...

I think our third session was supposed to end either at the lake, or in Bloopdiboop... the DM mentioned that we didn't quite make it as far as he had wanted for the session end - but we had a long chase scene (and learning of the chase rules) in the middle of the session that ate a lot of time. So, I think we're close to the city...

[mgshamster]

We're 3rd level, though the DM accidentally fast-tracked us - only took 2 sessions to get there. We finished our third session on Saturday. We're headed to Bloopdiboop (however that's spelled) by way of some lake. Then off to a derro/duergar city. Most of the players are drow or half-drow, but we have one duergar who really wants out of the elf lands, and a high elf druid who really wants out of the underdark period. We lost Prince D (we renamed him Prince Harry) to a prison patrol, and as I mentioned, most of the others either died and were butchered, or ran off because I butchered former party members for breakfast hash...

I think our third session was supposed to end either at the lake, or in Bloopdiboop... the DM mentioned that we didn't quite make it as far as he had wanted for the session end - but we had a long chase scene (and learning of the chase rules) in the middle of the session that ate a lot of time. So, I think we're close to the city...

Sloopidoop. :)

There are three or four major cities you could travel to. That's one of them. It's on the shores of Darklake. The deurgar city is another, and it's called Gracklstugh. It's also on the shores of Darklake, making the giant underground lake a good source for travel (it also hides your tracks from the drow).

[Dimers]

Sloopidoop. :)

Shoop de doo bop. :smallamused:

My initial reaction whenever a player asks for a railroad is that the player doesn't want to make decisions from a wide-open field because it's too big to be predictable. I dislike games that are mostly random -- from Fluxx right on up to sandbox worldhopping GURPS -- because I never feel like I did anything more important than being the hand that flipped over the next card. Half the time my decisions just shoot me in the foot.

This evening in a Gamma World game, I roleplayed my tired 13-year-old character by going back to bed during her watch shift. The GM rolled for wandering monsters, and sure enough, some came by. Turns out they're aggressive herbivores that would have charged the hell out of the party if anyone had looked threatening, i.e. been standing up. I saved the party's collective butt accidentally ... and it has no meaning for me. It was random from start to finish. Amusing, yes, but I have no sense of accomplishment, and it certainly didn't have the metagame effect I expected. Much less important actions in the same game session felt better because at least my intent was partly realized.

The book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" has a great bit where the narrator's former self learns/teaches the overwhelming nature of overly broad concepts and the subsequent power of focus.

Not necessarily what your player feels ... but it's possible.

[LostHanyou]

It's possible your player feels like the party's just faffing about and not accomplishing much. Maybe he wants to experience and be a part of a story that you created, and experience a more concise "plot" of sorts.

I'm kinda projecting here, but it's hard to determine the "why" unless he tells you - this is just my experience. I'm sure he's not on the extreme end of "I want EVERYTHING homebrewed and railroady".

Nothing you can do if you simply have time constraints, though.

[Once a Fool]

Hooks are where it's at for sandbox campaigns. Without them, the players have only their own (disparate) whims to guide them. With good and plentiful hooks, they have motivations to follow that actually come out of--and lead back into--the adventure.

It seems like the player in the OP is really asking for a reason to continue with the rest of the party. So give him a hook. Something taylored to his background and/or personality traits, flaw, or (especially) his bond. And don't forget to award inspiration if he follows up on it!

[mgshamster]

It's possible your player feels like the party's just faffing about and not accomplishing much. Maybe he wants to experience and be a part of a story that you created, and experience a more concise "plot" of sorts.

I'm kinda projecting here, but it's hard to determine the "why" unless he tells you - this is just my experience. I'm sure he's not on the extreme end of "I want EVERYTHING homebrewed and railroady".

Nothing you can do if you simply have time constraints, though.

That's some decent insight. I feel that he wants to experience the story that I want my players to experience. It's a bit of a disconnect to me, because I want my players to experience a story that has them as the primary drivers. I set up a limited number of choices, and they make their decisions about where to go.

When they left Velkynvelve (the starting location), they had a choice of three paths to take: Gracklstugh, Sloopidoop, or Neverlight Grove. Their NPC allies gave them their input, but ultimately it was the player's decision. They chose Gracklstugh (they felt it was the most reliable path). The adventure was fairly linear from there (traveling in underdark caverns to reach a specific destination), but they still had choices. What pace are they traveling, what are they doing about the drow pursuit, etc? I even game them small choices here and there about what to do with situations they come across (I had them find some escaped slaves; do they rescue them? Give them supplies and leave them? Another situation had them deciding to trust an insane stranger on whether this other path truly would be a shortcut or if they keep going the long path trusting in someone they increasingly didn't trust).

When they reached Gracklstugh; they did so by taking an underground river that bled into the Darklake. Now they had a choice: how to get in to the city. They could go via the docks or the main gates. If the main gates, what would be their disguise and cover story (they knew just showing up as escaped slaves would get them captures by the deurgar)? If the docks, how would they get there? Swim? Maybe have one person (or a small team) infiltrate the city and acquire some boats?

Now that they're in the city, what do they do? They know they still want boats to get to Neverlight Grove across the Darklake. But they also want to contact the Grey Ghosts (a secret organization that one of the characters has heard rumors of; they believe the Grey Ghosts to be a slave rescuing operation). The last session ended with them having a major decision with three possible paths: continue to Neverlight Grove to fulfill a promise to Stool, leave the underdark entirely, or agree to see the Grey Ghosts in hopes of creating an Underground Railroad for slaves in the city (this group is big on rescuing slaves).

I give them choices. I let the adventure change based on those choices. But even with that, this one player seems dissatisfied with the choices presented - he seems to want me to pick the path for them and give them the illusion of choice. I feel that he wants me to give them choices, and then no matter what the choice is it always goes down the same path - the path I want and the story I want to tell. But I don't want that; I want to build a collaborative story that grows naturally - and so do the rest of the players.

The last session was really the slowest. They didn't make any hard decisions and kind of sat around waiting for something to happen. This same player also complained that I wasn't roleplaying the NPCs enough - he felt like they barely had any impact in the game. However, he's missed multiple sessions and often shows up later than the rest of the group (we have a 1-2pm start time and he typically leaves his house at 2ish, gets food, then shows up around 3-3:30). Coincidentally, almost all of the major interactions with the NPCs have been when he wasn't there. Heck, he missed the first three weeks of the campaign and the entire escape from Velkynvelve due to being sick. And last session, he made the call to hide *all* of the NPCs in a room in the Inn while the rest of the party went out into the city to explore. There was practically no interactions with the NPCs because of such.

[mgshamster]

Hooks are where it's at for sandbox campaigns. Without them, the players have only their own (disparate) whims to guide them. With good and plentiful hooks, they have motivations to follow that actually come out of--and lead back into--the adventure.

It seems like the player in the OP is really asking for a reason to continue with the rest of the party. So give him a hook. Something taylored to his background and/or personality traits, flaw, or (especially) his bond. And don't forget to award inspiration if he follows up on it!

Good advice.

I have been trying to tie his character in to a "rescue the slaves" type subplot and I've been trying to give them leads. We'll see where it goes.