Spheres of Power Time Handbook Open Beta

[Kira_the_5th]

About a month ago, the beta test for the Destruction Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472077-Spheres-of-Power-Destruction-Handbook-Open-Beta) for the Spheres of Power system started. Now, I'm here as the author of the Time sphere's handbook to get some playtesting done in much the same way.

Time Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xrcVb8f4isNrnf0c4A-ek9AmU8UD9nNULJF5v6dRwNM/edit)

Please take a look, and let me know how my handbook could be improved.

Current Issues Being Addressed:

The Time Traveler class is getting a minor overhaul to increase focus and theme, alongside a new central mechanic focused around time.

[Warpwolf16]

I so want to try and get a play for this, I saw the new DC series and now I want to build a Time ship with a Time Traveler trying to prevent a Apocalypse.

[TheIronGolem]

I love that Gunslinger archetype, but I worry that it's fundamentally built on the DM making a Special Snowflake Exemption to firearm availability. I suspect the games where the archetype is allowed will most often be the ones where their weapons are already commonplace (which kind of undermines the theme).

[SwordChucks]

For the Self-taught tradition power: Can you spend multiple insight points for a greater bonus. The way it's written seems to preclude that.

Also, the time traveller seems unfocused. Maybe if I saw a few sample builds it would make more sense. I do look forward to playing one named Professor Huh though.

Overall, I'm excited about this book because time is my favorite sphere and time travel has always been something I've wanted to run in a game.

[Kira_the_5th]

For the Self-taught tradition power: Can you spend multiple insight points for a greater bonus. The way it's written seems to preclude that.

Also, the time traveller seems unfocused. Maybe if I saw a few sample builds it would make more sense. I do look forward to playing one named Professor Huh though.

Overall, I'm excited about this book because time is my favorite sphere and time travel has always been something I've wanted to run in a game.

I'm actually in the process of tightening up the Time Traveler's focus. Adam Meyers and I were talking last night about adding a new mechanic focused around being slightly "detached from time", which would cause you to more easily manipulate time. I"m sketching out how this will be represented mechanically now, and a draft version will be added hopefully later tonight, likely as an "every odd level" thing, along with a few new knack options for manipulating it.

As for Self-taught, it was meant to function similarly to the Charlatan tradition's Guile pool, providing a lesser bonus that could be applied to any d20 roll instead of only skill checks. I can ask Adam tonight for clarification, but I'm going to go with a tentative "no" until I find out whether other tradition powers can be used multiple times.


I love that Gunslinger archetype, but I worry that it's fundamentally built on the DM making a Special Snowflake Exemption to firearm availability. I suspect the games where the archetype is allowed will most often be the ones where their weapons are already commonplace (which kind of undermines the theme).

I tried to write the futurist with the goal of trying to slip more advanced firearms in around availability issues. As long as the futurist has their initial firearm from the gunsmith class feature, they can start to upgrade their weapon from any point (heck, they could even theoretically use a crossbow to upgrade into a simple firearm at 5th). I know the archetype won't be a thematic fit in every campaign, but I am trying to ensure that you have everything you need to use the archetype from any point.

[TheIronGolem]

I tried to write the futurist with the goal of trying to slip more advanced firearms in around availability issues. As long as the futurist has their initial firearm from the gunsmith class feature, they can start to upgrade their weapon from any point (heck, they could even theoretically use a crossbow to upgrade into a simple firearm at 5th). I know the archetype won't be a thematic fit in every campaign, but I am trying to ensure that you have everything you need to use the archetype from any point.

Well, that's kind of my point. A DM who has decided that only early guns are available (for whatever balance/theme/setting reason) is probably not going to approve a PC who can bring a laser to a matchlock fight. You can argue that this extreme is only possible at level 17+, and that this is humble compared to what any caster can bring to the table at that stage - and you would be right - but I don't think it's an argument that would sway most DM's who want to run a swords-and-blackpowder game.

[SwordChucks]

How about Anachronist for the time traveler?

[AmberVael]

Well, that's kind of my point. A DM who has decided that only early guns are available (for whatever balance/theme/setting reason) is probably not going to approve a PC who can bring a laser to a matchlock fight. You can argue that this extreme is only possible at level 17+, and that this is humble compared to what any caster can bring to the table at that stage - and you would be right - but I don't think it's an argument that would sway most DM's who want to run a swords-and-blackpowder game.

I concur with this line of thinking. There's a few settings or games that might be able to pull it off, but I know the anachronism of the archetype would be a massive obstacle for me, at least. Its a cool concept, but is troublesome in practice.

[Waddacku]

I find that overall setting tech level and ability for a PC to use anachronistic weapons through time travel are two entirely separate things. You can ban both on the reasoning that you don't want laser rifles in your game, but you can also set tech level because you don't want a bunch of people running around with laser rifles, or the futurist because you don't want the grabbing things through time aspect. They really aren't automatically connected.

[Kira_the_5th]

Is it just me, or did yesterday seem to just keep going on forever?

Anyway, I've been spending that time tinkering with the Time Traveler class, adding in a new central mechanic replacing Time Sense; Unhinged from Time. Using her mastery of time magic, the time traveler now gains a number of points of time essence that can be allocated, much like the Occultist, into different aspects of her personal time, including speeding up reaction times to grant bonuses to initiative and Reflex saves, increasing the momentum or acceleration of her attacks to grant bonuses to hit or damage, increasing her brain's processing speed to aid with Intelligence checks, and more! I've also added a few extra Traveler's Knacks to grant new uses for time essence beyond the basics, and I'll be adding more over the next few days. Have a look, and let me know what you think!

[Prime32]

Some stuff that might be cool:

A monster or archetype which can live forever by "stealing time" from other people.
A feat for true dragons with the Age talent as a prerequisite, allowing them to grow or shrink and granting some of the effects of a different age category (e.g. stronger/weaker breath weapon).
A way to slow yourself down in order to become undetectable to magic and nonvisual senses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8NC5nne0j0&t=2m30s) (or alternately, speed yourself up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz26JnEMNT0)). Possibly including a way to walk on surfaces that can't support your weight, without triggering pressure plate traps.
The ability to swap with alternate-timeline versions of yourself, which works like psychic reformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-reformation) and possibly lets you change your appearance or racial traits to a limited extent.
A way to kill people retroactively - i.e. they were never born, and only you and certain time-related creatures can remember them. Probably as a capstone to prevent headaches.


I also feel like the Time Traveller should have a limited ability to take certain actions retroactively, with the explanation that they were done by a future version of themselves who travelled back in time to help. E.g. creating alibis, hiding keys near locked doors, sending warnings to allies, etc. You might need some "Laws of Time" that their intervention has to follow, e.g. they can only act on information known by the present you.

And it occurs to me that, apart from the new Self-Taught hedgewitch tradition, the Spiritualism tradition is pretty good at representing the ability to "borrow knowledge from the future".

[AmberVael]

...which works like psychic reformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-reformation)

I strongly recommend not making anything like psychic reformation ever.
It shouldn't have been made for 3.5, DSP shouldn't have re-released it for Pathfinder, and there definitely don't need to be more versions floating around.

[khadgar567]

Some stuff that might be cool:


A way to slow yourself down in order to become undetectable to magic and nonvisual senses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8NC5nne0j0&t=2m30s) (or alternately, speed yourself up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz26JnEMNT0)). Possibly including a way to walk on surfaces that can't support your weight, without triggering pressure plate traps.



Gilgamesh and archer with initate time control yes please

[stack]

I say an archetype focused on self-buffing for melee (like the 3.5 swiftblade prestige) would be cool, but I've suggested that before.

[Manyasone]

Also, the obvious link to 'Doctor Who', brilliant in my opinion... I tip my fez to you, and I'm anxious for this one. Let's hope it doesn't become quantum locked or dissipates into silence.
And Stack's prayer seems to be answered with the hasted blade, which is nice

[Flame_Effigy]

I really love the buff effect you can grant to Slow and the debuff effect you can grant to Haste.
Very creative.

[Barbarian Horde]

If you detach yourself from time you could theoretically live in your own mini dimension that encapsulates you regardless of what ever plane your on. Things like ageless body for aesthetics would be possible. At least a decelerated aging process giving you a longer life span.

If your working with time, maybe a ability that could cure a condition as you reset someones body to a previous point in time.

[Kaouse]

So...I don't suppose I can get an update on what happened to this Handbook? It seemed to have dropped off the face of the earth, which kinda sucked since there are some really great ideas here. I believe there were some issues with the time talents, but surely those can be worked around, no? Is there any hope of this being revisited at some point?

[A.J.Gibson]

So...I don't suppose I can get an update on what happened to this Handbook? It seemed to have dropped off the face of the earth, which kinda sucked since there are some really great ideas here. I believe there were some issues with the time talents, but surely those can be worked around, no? Is there any hope of this being revisited at some point?

I believe Michael Sayre has taken over the book and is probably (hopefully) not going to use a lot of the previous material. Expect to be one of the last books, I think.

[Ssalarn]

I believe Michael Sayre has taken over the book and is probably (hopefully) not going to use a lot of the previous material. Expect to be one of the last books, I think.


Yeah, I've taken over this project and it's going to end up looking substantially different from the docs originally presented here. I'll be starting a new thread with fresh playtest docs once we've hit that point.

[Manyasone]

Hmmm. I kind of liked the time lord vibe. But that has probably more to do with me being a Doctor Who nut

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If that whole "desynced from time" angle finds its way into any of the material, might want to look at DSP's Voyager playtest since that's one of its core mechanics!

[meat_shield]

Just wondering how things are progressing on the new HB for this spheres :) Thanks again for a great product !

[Danielxxi]

Yeah, I've taken over this project and it's going to end up looking substantially different from the docs originally presented here. I'll be starting a new thread with fresh playtest docs once we've hit that point.

Any news about this?

[Halinn]

I feel like there's a nice potential Drawback with Blinding Speed et al. - give one of those talents, with the caveat that it's no longer optional to use them. A bit niche, but it could be useful with the right group, and I like the flavor of your time magic simply being more powerful than you can handle.

[Domar]

There should be something about haste benefiting attack actions. Spheres of Might users generally don't full attack.

[Mehangel]

There should be something about haste benefiting attack actions. Spheres of Might users generally don't full attack.

That is a very good point, and one that I would like to see addressed in the Time Handbook aswell. I am not saying that the Time sphere's Haste ability needs to grant an additional attack to attack actions, but it needs to provide a significant bonus of some kind, (even if it is merely an untyped bonus To-Hit with attack actions, stacking with the bonus granted by the Improved Haste talent).

[khadgar567]

That is a very good point, and one that I would like to see addressed in the Time Handbook aswell. I am not saying that the Time sphere's Haste ability needs to grant an additional attack to attack actions, but it needs to provide a significant bonus of some kind, (even if it is merely an untyped bonus To-Hit with attack actions, stacking with the bonus granted by the Improved Haste talent).
yeah we need some word for its improved version as well. Since improved haste adds bonus to speed and couple of atletics sphere talents multiplies speed. We need rules for that

[Ssalarn]

There should be something about haste benefiting attack actions. Spheres of Might users generally don't full attack.

That's actually one of the things I'm working on as I get the new Time draft ready, is making more mechanics that are compatible with Spheres of Might, such as "haste" talents that focus more on things like adding attacks of opportunity or allowing you to treat your next AoO as an attack action since you can fit more action into a smaller timeframe.
I don't have an ETA on when the new playtest docs will be up since we just got Champions out the door, but I'm thinking it will likely be mid to late January, and now that SoM and Champions are officially released will also include some direct support of SoM classes in the form of archetypes, insights, knacks, etc.

[Quarian Rex]

That's actually one of the things I'm working on as I get the new Time draft ready, is making more mechanics that are compatible with Spheres of Might, such as "haste" talents that focus more on things like adding attacks of opportunity or allowing you to treat your next AoO as an attack action since you can fit more action into a smaller timeframe.
I don't have an ETA on when the new playtest docs will be up since we just got Champions out the door, but I'm thinking it will likely be mid to late January, and now that SoM and Champions are officially released will also include some direct support of SoM classes in the form of archetypes, insights, knacks, etc.

Glad to hear that SoM integration is on the radar. My one recommendation in that regard would be to try packaging some of those things together. One thing that the SoP system has suffered from is talent bloat, where myriad talents come out with each book that, while perhaps having some useful effects, do not individually provide enough benefit to be worth a precious talent pick.

SoP builds can be extremely tight. Each talent has to be worth the cost. Please keep that sort of thing in mind.

[Danielxxi]

That's actually one of the things I'm working on as I get the new Time draft ready, is making more mechanics that are compatible with Spheres of Might, such as "haste" talents that focus more on things like adding attacks of opportunity or allowing you to treat your next AoO as an attack action since you can fit more action into a smaller timeframe.
I don't have an ETA on when the new playtest docs will be up since we just got Champions out the door, but I'm thinking it will likely be mid to late January, and now that SoM and Champions are officially released will also include some direct support of SoM classes in the form of archetypes, insights, knacks, etc.

Hi, I known that my English is out of practice, hence please ignore my error.

Even if I would love to have integration with SoM, please do not focus only on that, nor only on combat. Time spheres must have a lot of usages out of combat.

As you are writing the draft I’ll share my ideas.

The time spheres as is now, it is all about “Alter Time”. You gain 2 base alter time (Haste & Slow), and there are nine more that you could get through talents (with the time tag)

The first thing to notice is that only the base talent have improved versions, hence it would be nice to give an improved version to the other 9 core alter time. As sphere talents do not have requisites then you could update those talent in a way that “if you take this talent twice you get this”.

Some ideas for improved version of the core time talents could be:

After Image (time): works similar to mirror image spell,

Age (time): change duration to caster level hours (Age Resistance familiy spells has 24 hs)

Eject (time): all my ideas about this become legendaries talents.

Fast Time (time): in addition to the base effect, you focus on one non permanent effect in the area and end it.

Repetition (time): could take 20 on any situation where in a no stress situation you cold take 20 ( I never understood the limit to Strength or Dexterity-based skill check)

Retry (time): If the target repeat the same action it gain an insgith vonus to all d20 checks he did the previous repetition.
Alternative: the target repeat his actions twice, and then choose the best of the to round to become real.

Shift Time (time): add full round action as an option.

Steal Time (time): if you have the eject talent, target is ejected one round instead of being dazed. In addition you immediately gain an additional full round action instead of standard action


Additional I think that time must have many non combat oriented talents. Some examples:

Fast rest (time): target reduce the time the target needs to sleep that day by cl hs (maximum time he need to sleep). This not allow to gain spell points or daily abilities more than once per day.

Fast march: increase the target hustle and run speed by his base movement for caster level minutes. If taken twice the duration increase to caster level hours. (i.e. hustle x3, run with armor x4, run x5). At caster level 10 & 20 improves ones again.

Some ideas i have about legendary talents:

Greater steal time. Require: Steal Time x2, Eject. Effect: while the creature is ejected you gain one extra move action per round. No matter how many creatures are ejected, you could not gain mora that one move action per round this way.

Legendary Fast march. Requisite: Fast march. Instead of the normal increase, you add half caster level (minimum 1) times the base speed to the hustle and run speeds.

As you say it would be nice to add additional effects to base time talents. I would add a tag (with my lack of imagination I will coll improvement), and allow to add an improve talent each time an alter time is used. For example:

Extra AoO (improvement): target gain 1 extra AoO, +1 extra AoO each 5 levels. This improven could be add to to the haste, after image, and steal tieme talents.

Maybe there could be some talents to add small bonus to Bonus to initiative, ac, attack, saves, ...

Finally for feats I have sone ideas too:

Immortality
prerequisite: Age (time) talent twice, time caster level 15.
Benefit: same as Immortality wizard discover.
Note: At least wizards, alchemist and some sorceress cold get this at level 20, but being mainly a flavor ability I see no harm to allow it early (cl 15, or even at 10?).


Self Cohort
Prerequisite: time caster level 7.
You shift yourself form the past to the present, you stole yourself very small portion of your time that you do not even notice. This could have when you sleep, you are distracted, or doing a so routinary task that you do not even to concentration. This was in so small portions that you do not even notice until you take this feat. But now this explain all those small lags.
Benefit: You gain a cohort as with the leadership feat. Unlike the that this cohort could only have levels in classes you have, have options you choose (like feats, traits, archetypes, etc. basically it is you). Additional it have your stats, races and traits. This cohort is always two levels behaind you, no mater your leadership score.
If your cothor ever dice, you gain a negative level for a weak, this negative level can not be remove by any means. After a week, the negative level fades and your cohort reappear.
Special: you could no have this an leadership, but this count as leadership for requisites.
Note: this gives a cohort that is harder to abuse: no free item creation feats, creation options have a lot of restrictions, you have no followers. To compensate that your cohort have your stat array and you do not have to care about cohorts level.

[meat_shield]

That's actually one of the things I'm working on as I get the new Time draft ready, is making more mechanics that are compatible with Spheres of Might, such as "haste" talents that focus more on things like adding attacks of opportunity or allowing you to treat your next AoO as an attack action since you can fit more action into a smaller timeframe.
I don't have an ETA on when the new playtest docs will be up since we just got Champions out the door, but I'm thinking it will likely be mid to late January, and now that SoM and Champions are officially released will also include some direct support of SoM classes in the form of archetypes, insights, knacks, etc.

How does late January still look for open beta for new Time Handbook draft ?

[Ssalarn]

How does late January still look for open beta for new Time Handbook draft ?

Very good.

[mrguymiah]

Very good.

Just to better keep an eye out, will you be making a new thread or will you be utilizing this one? (Just asking cause I'm excited that we're at "late January".)

[Ssalarn]

Just to better keep an eye out, will you be making a new thread or will you be utilizing this one? (Just asking cause I'm excited that we're at "late January".)

New thread, but I'll update here as well and include a link. I lost some time taking a testing packet for a new job, so the handbook needs about 4 hours of work before I flip it over for quick internal review, but it should still make it out within the next couple days for that late January release estimate.

[mrguymiah]

New thread, but I'll update here as well and include a link. I lost some time taking a testing packet for a new job, so the handbook needs about 4 hours of work before I flip it over for quick internal review, but it should still make it out within the next couple days for that late January release estimate.

Awesome! Thank you for keeping us updated. Ssalarn.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Snip

Considering Oracles can already “eject” someone, I don’t think that needs to be a legendary talent

[meat_shield]

So I'm pretty sure if I keep asking "how much longer" this will help speed things up right ? :D But in all seriousness - thank you and can't wait to see your take on this!

[Ssalarn]

I just wanted to post a quick update:
Adam needed me to jump off Time for a bit and help push Andrus: The City of Men (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/232681/Andrus-The-City-of-Men?affiliate_id=435758) over the finish-line. As a Kickstarter product that many have already paid for, it had to take priority over the handbook. It is finished now and any final edits or updates will be handled by Adam, so Time is my current priority and I'm working on pushing it out ASAP so we can get as close to the late January playtest release I stated previously as possible. I missed a couple overlap areas with some other handbooks, so I'm swapping those out for new mechanics and pushing through the internal review as quickly as possible. Thank you again for your patience everyone! It's not going to be much longer.

[meat_shield]

I just wanted to post a quick update:
Adam needed me to jump off Time for a bit and help push Andrus: The City of Men (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/232681/Andrus-The-City-of-Men?affiliate_id=435758) over the finish-line. As a Kickstarter product that many have already paid for, it had to take priority over the handbook. It is finished now and any final edits or updates will be handled by Adam, so Time is my current priority and I'm working on pushing it out ASAP so we can get as close to the late January playtest release I stated previously as possible. I missed a couple overlap areas with some other handbooks, so I'm swapping those out for new mechanics and pushing through the internal review as quickly as possible. Thank you again for your patience everyone! It's not going to be much longer.

Thanks for the update! That City of Men setting looks interesting. Might have to check it out (curious what is outside the city).

[mrguymiah]

Thank you for the update! I appreciate the transparency with what's going on. And don't worry. I think we all will be happier for a good book that took it's time than one that was rushed out the door.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Thank you again for your patience everyone! It's not going to be much longer.
Would you say that... it is nearly time for it? :smallbiggrin:

[meat_shield]

Any chance of a progress update ?

[Ssalarn]

Any chance of a progress update ?

Sorry for the delay! I started working for Paizo full time as a game developer recently and it's had a pretty significant in the flow of communication between Adam and I as we've been getting the new Time doc ready for release. The wait is over however, and you can see the new playtest here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552108-Drop-Dead-Studios-Time-Handbook-Open-Beta-Alternate-Timeline&p=22875044#post22875044)

I'd ask that future comments and feedback be posted in that new thread so I can make sure that everything gets noticed and taken care of. Thanks everyone!