Bladesinger Concept Optimization

[Bullvinne]

So I just started a new campaign with friends and wanted to optimize my character concept. I want a gish build based off of of a High Elven Champion of Corellon Larethian.

I remember the wizard had a paragon path in 4th edition based off of this and I wanted to capture the same idea in 5th.

So I already know it will incorporate the new Bladesinger subclass as a main part of the build, and I am thinking that multiclass fighter would match the concept best, but multiclass rogue also has its advantage.

My character is already level 2 Bladesinger with the following stats (rolled plus High Elf Racial bonuses):
Str: 11
Dex: 18
Con: 13
Int: 18
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

Also; as a side note, the rest of the party is comprised of a Fighter going Purple Dragon Knight, a Mastermind Rogue, and a Lore Bard. None of the other players are super min-max’ers and the DM is great at making the power of the encounters equal to our level of power.

So I don't want to focus on the absurdly powerful wizard spells that can trivialize an entire encounter and leave my teammates feeling like they are contributing nothing to the encounter (Wish and Simulacrum will never be used, changing into a ancient brass dragon , etc)

I have a few ideas that I will list out below (Both Fighter and Rogue MC options, and from most bladesinger to less bladesinger), Please let me know which you think would be the best all around Gish:


Fighter (EK) Multiclass options:

14BS/6EK focusing on Multiple attacks (Extra attack, dualweilding, and haste):
ASI(5 total): +2 Dex, +2 Int, Warcaster, Dual Wield, Last One Open
Fighting Style: Two Weapon Fighting Style

Pros:
7th level spells known and 16th level effective caster
4 x (1d8 + 10 (rapiers)) possible at-will attack damage (2 attacks with Extra Attack, Bonus attack from twf, and Haste Attack, needs two weapon fighting style and the dual wield feat to make the most of it)
BS lvl 10 damage soak ability
Action Surge and Second Wind

Cons:
Only 6 levels of Fighter HP so still kinda bad in the HP department, Gives up the other EK goodies like War Magic and Eldritch Strike for the +Int to melee attacks.

Conclusion: Most caster of the bunch, least survivable out of all of the Fighter options, but has the basis of a gish


13BS/7EK focusing on War Magic and BB/GFB as main at-will attack method:
ASI(5 total): +2 Dex, +2 Int, Warcaster, Last Two Open
Fighting Style: Duelist Fighting Style

Pros:
7th level spells known and 15th level effective caster
3 x (1d8 +7 (rapiers)) + 3d8 to 6d8 (if the BB/GFB secondary riders happen) at-will attack damage (War Magic’ed GFB or BB, Bonus attack, and Haste Attack, no specific feats needed to make the most of this)
War Magic
BS lvl 10 damage soak ability
Action Surge and Second Wind

Cons: Only 7 levels of Fighter HP so still kinda bad in the HP department, Gives up +int to each melee attack for War Magic but gains Duelist Fighting Style to offset the loss.

Conclusion: Just one more fighter level doesn't give much more survivability, but it does give you the tasty War Magic ability and makes you feel like you are weaving magic and melee while keeping on par with straight attacks.


10BS/10EK focusing on War Magic and BB/GFB as main at-will attack method:
ASI(5 total): +2 Dex, +2 Int, Warcaster, Last Two Open
Fighting Style: Duelist Fighting Style

Pros:
3 x (1d8 +7 (rapiers)) + 3d8 to 6d8 (if the BB/GFB secondary riders happen) at-will attack damage (War Magic’ed GFB or BB, Bonus attack, and Haste Attack, no specific feats needed to make the most of this)
10 levels of fighter hit dice for more survivability
Eldritch Strike for spell success!
Indomitable (more survivability)
War Magic
BS lvl 10 damage soak ability
Action Surge and Second Wind

Cons: 5th level spells known and 13th level effective caster so starting to lose some of the casting goodness.

Conclusion: You now get at least half of your levels at a d10 HD, The Sexy Eldritch Strike for conferring disadvantage on a spell save if you hit a baddie, still ok on the spells known but starting to drop.


2BS/18EK focusing on Multiple attacks (Extra attack, dualweilding, and haste):
ASI(6 total): +2 Dex, +2 Int, Warcaster, Dual Wielding, Last Two Open
Fighting Style: Two Weapon Fighting

Pros:
5 x (1d8 + 5 (rapiers)) possible at-will attack damage (3 attacks with Extra Attack, Bonus attack from twf, and Haste Attack, needs two weapon fighting style and the dual wield feat to make the most of it)
18 levels of fighter hit dice for the most survivability
Improved War Magic for Fireball + Basic attack? lol
Arcane Charge for extra movement
Eldritch Strike for spell success!
Indomitable (more survivability) x 3
War Magic (for when a GFB or BB would be better then 5 attacks)
Action Surge x 2 and Second Wind

Cons: 3rd level spells known and 8th level effective caster so the least caster of the bunch

Conclusion: The 18 levels of fighter make you have a great HP pool, however you loose the BS ability to spend a spell slot to reduce damage from an attack. Not sure if this is a good tradeoff. You also are the worst in casting, you only know 3rd level spells, and most of them have to be from the Abjuration/Evocation spell lists. However, you have 5 attacks at 1d8 + 5 per attack.


Rogue (AT) Multiclass Options:

11BS/9AT focusing on Multiple attacks for sneak attack fishing (Extra attack, dualweilding, and haste):
ASI(4total): +2 Dex, +2 Int, Warcaster, Dual Wielding

Pros:
4 x (1d8 + 5 (rapiers)) + 5d6 (sneak attack) possible at-will attack damage (2 attacks with Extra Attack, Bonus attack from twf, and Haste Attack, needs two weapon fighting style and the dual wield feat to make the most of it)
6th level spells known and 14th level effective caster
Extra Attack
Expertise
Cunning Action
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
BS lvl 10 ability to absorb damage
Magical Ambush 1 level before Eldritch Knight gets his (Eldritch Strike)

Cons: Lower Hit Die then the Fighter Multiclass, rogue is less tied to my concept

Conclusion: More ways to make a single attack hurt with 5d6 Sneak Attack, gets Magical Ambush earlier then EK would, with Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and the BS lvl 10 ability, it might be the most survivable out of the lot, even without the d10 HD from fighter.


7BS/13AT Focusing on using GFB or BB plus Versatile Trickster to ensure advantage on attack:
ASI(5total): +2 Dex, +2 Int, Warcaster, Last Two Open

Pros:
1 x (1d8 + 5 (rapier)) + 7d6 (sneak attack) + 3d8 to 6d8 (if the BB/GFB secondary riders happen) possible at-will attack damage with advantage
true 4th level wizard spells known and 11th level effective caster
Extra Attack (probably wont be used
Expertise
Cunning Action
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
Magical Ambush 1 level before Eldritch Knight gets his (Eldritch Strike)
Reliable Talent
Versatile Trickster

Cons: Lose some survivability from the level 10 BS feature but reliably gain advantage and sneak attack without allies

Conclusion: Probably the most punishable single attack of all builds, it loses some survivability but it could be made up by the extra ASI this build gets.


Thoughts/Ideas on which is the best/most optimized gish?

[Corran]

Concept optimization is not a thing. Multiclass as you see fit to realize a concepth you have in mind, although for what you want to play (the way you presented it in your first sentense), single class bladesinger would do (or single class EK for that reason).

As for your build, stay away from fighter, it does not have much to offer you. With these stats I would suggest going asap at bladesinger 7, before even starting to consider any multiclassing. Resilient con may be a good pick at a higher level, given your odd con score.

[Dalebert]

In the interest of full disclosure, I didn't read most of your post so take this with a grain of salt. I maintain the believe that the main point of bladesinger is to be able to gish relatively well without giving up any wizard casting levels. I would personally never multiclass even one level away from BS. Go full BS or go home, so to speak. It seems suboptimal at best and wasteful at worst to multiclass with it. There will be significant redundancies. You'll get the benefits you need from just a level or two of a melee class so you may as well not give up the benefits that you'll get from another archetype of wizard if you're going to dip a melee class.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

In the interest of full disclosure, I didn't read most of your post so take this with a grain of salt. I maintain the believe that the main point of bladesinger is to be able to gish relatively well without giving up any wizard casting levels. I would personally never multiclass even one level away from BS. Go full BS or go home, so to speak. It seems suboptimal at best and wasteful at worst to multiclass with it. There will be significant redundancies. You'll get the benefits you need from just a level or two of a melee class so you may as well not give up the benefits that you'll get from another archetype of wizard if you're going to dip a melee class.

About the only reasons one would MC is...

B.S. + Rage = Halarity (not sure if RAW or RAI)

Action Surge + dueling or twf style

Cunning Action

====

Cunning Action you can rplicate with spells or a feat (mobile).

I find the idea of a Mountain Dwarf BS Wizardto be quite entertaining. Might make a Barbarian Wizard...

[Bullvinne]

In the interest of full disclosure, I didn't read most of your post so take this with a grain of salt. I maintain the believe that the main point of bladesinger is to be able to gish relatively well without giving up any wizard casting levels. I would personally never multiclass even one level away from BS. Go full BS or go home, so to speak. It seems suboptimal at best and wasteful at worst to multiclass with it. There will be significant redundancies. You'll get the benefits you need from just a level or two of a melee class so you may as well not give up the benefits that you'll get from another archetype of wizard if you're going to dip a melee class.

So if going full BS to be a viable gish, would you suggest going TWF (Duel Wielding Feat) with the extra attack and haste for your at-will damage? (Possible 4D8 + 35 after level 14 with TWF and haste)

OR

taking the mobility feat and dive-bombing Booming Blades or Green Flame Blades and getting out to safety for your at-will damage? (Possible 5D8 + 20 + more damage if either BB or GFB secondary riders happen, includes haste attack)

Edit: What feats would you take for more survivability? Other then my +2 Int and Dex Bump, I will have 3 more ASI, I would probably take Resil(con) since I am at an odd score, and bump con by +2 twice for an 18 con at lvl 19...Mage Slayer would give more survivability against spells if I get up in their face...Toughness for extra HP might be good too...

Any other thoughts?

[Dalebert]

TWF (Duel Wielding Feat)

That feat only makes sense to me if you're not using finesse weapons. The +1 AC is nice but doesn't justify a feat IMHO when BSs are already pretty tough.


taking the mobility feat and dive-bombing Booming Blades or Green Flame Blades

Again, my BS is so hard to hit that mobility feels excessive and hard to justify a feat for, but it could be nice to have if you don't want something like Warcaster more (I do). I would find it a little frustrating because you'd be giving up your extra attack all the time for it. Are there spells that enhance melee weapon damage?


Edit: What feats would you take for more survivability?

Survivability isn't a BSs problem IMHO, but if anything, it has been suggested that Alert is a good feat so they don't get caught without bladesong going and also unable to cast Shield. That seems like a good suggestion if you're eager to spend a feat. That said, I would always max Int before anything else because it enhances bladesong which is the main benefit of a BS and it's also enhancing all your wizard stuff and you choose BS so you can keep all of that. It's a lot of bang for the buck and thus hard to justify putting off for a feat.

Seems melee damage is a BSs biggest weakness as a gish. I think you just make yourself tough enough with Blur or Haste and use close-up magic like Booming Blade or even Burning Hands or Thunderwave. There are better ways to make a gish who primarily fights to do damage. I feel like the BS is more about being a little gishy and quite tough for a wizard while retaining full wizard casting. If you see your character as mainly a melee character who can enhance his melee with some spells, don't go BS. Go EK or something else.

[Nicodiemus]

Playing a BS in my AL and I did choose to MC for 3 lvls in Swashbuckler. This gives me the disengage you want from Mobility, plus cunning action, SA damage on 1 attack practically every turn, and CHA bonus to init. I found that using two weapons helped survivability at low levels, but more often I was stacking BB/GFB with my SA on a single attack as this counts as a casting action. Remember, if you've got a weapon in each hand you can't cast anything with S until you get war caster. My DM is cool and let's me one hand somatic. I think the dip was worth it. Good luck!

[Bullvinne]

Thank you all for your responses.

I think I might stick with straight Bladesinger as many of you have suggested. If I take any feat to enhance my melee, it will be the mobility feat to get in and out of melee fast (and only when my spell casting is spent, or a melee attack like Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade is better resources spent then a spell)

For all feats, I plan on getting +2 Int, and either +2 Dex or Resil(Dex) plus a +1 in dex and con (unless I get Resil(con)), and toughness or Mobility lastly.