Favored Soul Sorcerer: Best Domains, Feats and suggestions

[Carlos Barreto]

Greetings,

I'm trying to create a gish Favored Soul Sorcerer with two-handed weapons (THW) and heavy armor. I love the idea of being capable of smite enemies in close combat while blasting hordes of enemies at once, all that in shining armor. Also, I think that the lack of War Caster feat makes easier to use THW than Sword & Shield for the purpose of casting spells with somatic components. Finally, throwing Javelins for ranged combat seems easier to do while you're holding your THW in your left hand instead of having a Sword & Shield occupying both hands.

So here comes some ideas...

RACE: Variant Human. Heavy Armor Master feat grants +1 Str and the 3 points of damage reduction is just a life saver at the first levels and I think it still remain usefull even at higher levels (because even at higher levels you will still fight mooks or other monsters with no magical attacks).

CLASS: Starting as Paladin for heavy armor proficiency. Extra HP (4) never hurts. Later levels includes Paladin 2 (for Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting and Smite!). I'm still unsure if the optimized build should be Paladin 2/Sorcerer FS 18 or Paladin 3/Sorcerer FS 17. What seems better? Power of The Chosen (Sorcerer 18) or a Paladin Oath (Paladin 3)?

FEATS: Besides Heavy Armor Master, I like the Great Weapon Master. I just think you're doing it wrong if you choose the Great Weapon Fighting Style and you don't have this feat because it pushes the THW DPR even further. The Power Attack+Cleave abilities (plus an extra attack if you make a critical hit) is so awesome that I prefer this feat rather than maximize Charisma, as crazy as it may sound.

About the domain, I'm stuck among War and Life domains, which seems to be the domains with the best spells. Concentration spells are written in red.


WAR DOMAIN SPELLS
Cleric level/Spells
1st
divine favor (1st): - Weapon attacks deals extra 1d4 radiant damage
shield of faith (1st): [B.A./Conc. 10 min] - +2 to AC
3rd
magic weapon (2th): [B.A./Conc. 1h] - Weapon becomes magical. +1/+2 (4th)/+3 (6th) to attack and damage.
spiritual weapon (2th): [B.A./1 min] - Spectral weapon. 1d8+Char Force damage
5th
crusader's mantle (3rd): [A./Conc. 1 min] - 30-foot aura. Friends/you deals extra 1d4 damage to weapon attacks.
spirit guardians (3rd): [A./Conc. 1 min] - 15-foot area. 3d8 radiant damage. Wisdom save halves.
7th
freedom of movement (4th): [A./1h] - Ignore terrain difficulty. Can't be paralised. Can escape grapple and restrain.
stoneskin (4th): [A./Conc. 1h] - Non-magical bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage halved
9th
flame strike (5th): [A./Inst.] - 10-foot radius and hight. 4d6 fire + 4d6 radiant damage. Dexterity save halves.
hold monster (5th): [A./Conc. 1 min] - Paralyze target. Wisdom save.
[B]CONCLUSION: 7 out of 10 (70%) of spells requires concentration.

LIFE DOMAIN SPELLS
Cleric Levei Spells
1st
bless (1st): [A./Conc. 1 min] - 3 creatures gains +1d4 for attack and save roll.
cure wounds (1st): [A./Inst.] - Heals 1d8+Char
3rd
lesser restoration (2nd): [A./Inst.] - Cure disease or condition.
spiritual weapon (2th): - Spectral weapon. 1d8+Char Force damage
5th
beacon of hope (3rd): [A./Conc. 1 min] - Wisdom and Death save w/ advantage. Maximized healing
revivify (3rd): [A./Inst.] - Ressurrect the dead within the last minute.
7th
death ward (4th): [A./8 hours.] - When dropped to 0 HP, you stay at 1 HP.
guardian of faith (4th): [A./8 hours.] - 20 radiant damage. Dexterity save halves. 3 uses.
9th
mass cure wounds (5th): [A./Instant] - 30-foot radius. Heals 3d8+Char.
raise dead (5th): [1h./Instant] - Ressurect the dead within 10 days.
[B]CONCLUSION: 2 out of 10 (20%) of spells requires concentration.

Thematically, I really like the War domain. The main problem is that Haste is a essential spell to a gish character. The War domain has 7 out of 10 spells that requires concentration, while the Life domains has only 2.Also, both domains shares the Spiritual Weapon spell, which is an amazing non-concentration spell that helps to increase DPR. So I believe that the Life domain is the best because it's more compatible with Haste.

Any thoughs or opinions?

EDIT: Slash & Blast fighting style. Based purely from theorycraft, this is my spell list idea (Italic red spells means spell swap):

Cantrips: Firebolt; Thunderclap; Booming Blade; Mage Hand; ???; ???
1 - Shield; Sleep
2 - Magic Missile
3 - Blur
4 - Shatter
5 - Haste; Sleep➞ Fireball
6 - Scorching Ray; Shatter ➞ Fly
7 - Blight; Blur ➞ Greater Invisibility
8 - Counterspell
9 - Cone of Cold
10 - Lightning Bolt
11 - Chain Lightning; Magic Missile ➞ Disintegrate
13 - Circle of Death
14 - Fly[1] ➞ Misty Step
15 - Hold Monster
17 - Wish; Scorching Ray ➞ Meteor Swarm

[1] - At level 14, Favored Soul gain wings.

Also, there are two gaps among cantrips.

Final list of spells (15 spells): Shield (1st), Misty Step (2nd), Haste (3rd), Fireball (3rd), Counterspell (3rd), Lightning Bolt (3rd), Greater Invisibility (4th), Blight (4th), Cone of Cold (5th), Hold Monster (5th), Disintegrate (6th), Chain Lightning (6th), Circle of Death (6th), Wish (9th), Meteor Swarm (9th).

Suggestions are welcome.

[Arkhios]

I've been contemplating with similar idea for a while now, and there's not much I can add to your analysis.

However, when multiclassing you should consider and focus more on what you gain early on with your classes, rather than those features at almost the max levels. Multiclassing is always a trade off, one way or another.

Personally, I would forget power of the chosen, since it doesn't do that much for the most time of your career. Instead, take paladin 4 levels. Considering that from the point forward when you multiclass, you no longer refer to exactly same spell slot progression, but the multiclassing table (it's slightly less spell slots at higher level than a pure caster would have).
Every odd level from paladin hits your slot level progression pretty hard when comparing to the gains.
3 paladin levels means only 1 level in that MC progression, while 4 levels of paladin is worth 2 "caster levels" instead. And you would get a much wanted ASI too. (with 3/17, you would lose one!)

although 17 levels from sorcerer does mean you get one 9th level spell to your list (or two, if you replace one of the earlier spells, too), you should consider if it's worth the loss of ASI.

Either way your effective caster level for spell slots would be 18, but with sorcerer 17/paladin 3, you end up with 18,5 which leaves you "wanting", if you care about OCD :P
If, however, you don't mind losing one feat/ability boost and can live without Charisma to weapon attack rolls once per short rest, then paladin 2/sorcerer18 > paladin3/sorcerer17. Which would mean that your effective caster level is 19, and the least loss of spellcasting potential.

Both domains are good for a gish, though you already have a few great Concentration spells from paladin that you most likely want to use, and thus I might steer towards the Life domain spells, as it gives you more options you can cast while concentrating in another. Then again, War domain fits thematically better for paladin, and it would weave closed a few gaps you get from losing paladin levels, especially when many of those spells are from paladin list. And some of them, especially Spirit Guardians, are ridiculously good for a gish paladin.

[Citan]

Hi!

Good start build. :) A few notes:
Paladin 3 would be better than Paladin 2, because you get the Oath.
- Devotion brings +CHA to damage and protection spells for your allies. Perfect if you want to deal consistent and high damage (GWM) against all enemies indifferently.
- Vengeance brings advantage on "attack rolls" (including spell attacks) against one enemy and Hunter's Mark, Bane, and later Haste. It requires you to be toe-to-toe with your enemy and you can't change though. Favor this if you want to be the BBEG striker of your party.

About Fighting Style choice, if...
1. You want to be equally good at casting attack spells as meleeing...
2. AND your DM rules that GW reroll only apply to weapon dice (not smite dice),
3. AND your DM allows content from Unearthed Arcana...
I would suggest swapping GW Fighting Style for Close Quarters Shooter.
Sure, you lose 1-2 reroll on 2 dice per round. BUT. You can now use all your attack spells even at close range AND you ignore cover AND you get +1 to attack rolls. Seems much more than a fair trade to me for a Pally/Sorcerer.

Which brings me to domain choice.
Don't forget that you have only one concentration slot, so you may very well end with many spells competing for it. Especially since Sorcerer has many good ones (if only, Haste, Slow, Blur, Enhance Ability, Polymorph etc), as well as Paladin (Shield of Faith, Bless, Divine Favor, -Bane & Hunter's Mark-).

So, considering this...
Life: unless you're supposed to be the healer of the group (Revivify, Raise Dead, Mass Cure Wounds) drop it. You already have basic healing/buff spells with Paladin, it should be enough (you can even Quicken a Cure Wounds in emergency).

War: same: unless you're aiming specifically for a playstyle based on Spirit Guardians or Crusader's Mantle, it's not worth it. Flame Strike can be superceded by a Fireball of inferior level, Magic Weapon competes with other good similar buffs (Bless, Divine Favor), Freedom of Movement is not THAT good and Stoneskin useless for a Knight in heavy armor.

Soo... What next?
Nature: good if you want to expand your utility/RP capability with exclusive nature-themed spells, otherwise it's a no-go (some spells are good, but not to the point of justifying the whole Domain).

Trickery: one of the interesting domains for many Sorcerer, but maybe not you, since most spells are biaised towards DEX based builds. Even if later spells are pretty nice (Dimension Door, Polymorph, Dispel Magic) they are all on Sorcerer spelllist so you can learn them if wanted anyways.

Death: unless you want to build a niche concept based on life stealing or necromancy (which COULD be fun though indeed ^^) most spells here can be learnt otherwise. Pass.

Arcane: spells of this domain indeed scream "Wizard!" ^^. Many wizard exclusive spells here, although mainly for utility (Except Planar Binding). Interesting only if you (think you) know how to use them (and no Wizard in the party). Otherwise, pass.

Now for the two interesting domains. :)

Tempest: although most spells on this are on Sorcerer spell list, most of them are easy to exploit in a fight (if only, Thunderwave as an espace button) and you get the nice, exclusive Destructive Wave spells. Perfect if you like thunder theme spells (like "me Paladin is Thor's incarnation") otherwise consider...

Light: nearly all spells ARE on Sorcerer list. Then why take it?
1. These are all GOOD spells for a blaster (even if all fire-related), some of them with attack rolls (synergy with CQS). You can work around fire resistant enemies by taking Elemental Adept feat or using other tactics (Chromatic Bolt, thunder spells, or just melee bashing). Combine this with Quicken Metamagic and you can get nasty rounds.
2. This frees you all the classic learning of Sorcerer to cherry-pick the best of buff/debuff utility spells.
Plus you get Faerie Fire which could be a nice alternative to Bless for a lvl 1 spell and Daylight. :)
(Ah, and if Unearthed Arcana is a go, a lvl1 dip into Undying Light Warlock makes your day).

Hope this helps. ;)

EDIT: About Arkhios comment. From a theorycrafting point of view, I strongly disagree with him. Keeping Paladin 3 means attaining Sorcerer 17th which means learning at least one lvl 9 spell. Between Power Word Kill and Wish, this is too strong a tentation to pass by.
With that said, if you're pretty sure you'll never reach character lvl 20, then follow his advice and take this 4th Paladin level for extra spell slot and ASI (or, if you don't need ASI and took Light domain, take the Warlock dip).

[Carlos Barreto]

Sure, it sucks to lose one ASIs/Feat. But if I have to make a choice, I choose the 9th level spells. And as Arkhios said, the sorcerer can replace one of his know spells for another 9th level spell. That means TWO 9th level spells knows, which I would choose Wish and the Magical Nuke (a.k.a Meteor Swarm. You know, like a real nuke, you may never need to use it, but it's good to know you can if you need so).

About the P2/S18 x P3/S17, I think the later is better. Looking again, The Chosen of the Gods from Sorcerer 18 doesn't look THAT great for a 18th level feature. The Paladin's Oath, earned much earlier, seems to be of great help. The Vow of Enmity from the Oath of Vengeance combined with Great Weapon Master feat and Hunter's Mark makes you a respectable Sorcerer-in-shining-armor gish, specially because you can Smite stronger than a Paladin at the same level. A very good strategy agains a powerful boss.

As Citan mentioned, Concentration is a serious businesses. That's why I compared War and Life domain spell list. War has great spells, but 70% of these spells requires Concentration, which conflicts with the so desired Haste. That's the reason why I believe the Life domain gains the upper hand. Additionally, both domains have Spiritual Weapon. So Life domains hits an extra score!

The Light domain is an option. However, it has some fire spells that I would keep only at the first levels, like Burning Hands and Scorching Ray. And I don't like Wall of Fire. And since I can't exchange those spells, this domain doesn't look very appealing to me.

About the Fighting Style from Unearthed Arcana, I'll take a close look and think about it. It's that sometimes I just forget the issue of casting spells in close combat.

The main weakness of this build is the lack of Constitution proficiency. That hurts a lot!! It's a shame that Paladins have Wisdom proficiency instead of Constitution and Charisma (like Sorcerers). But Favored Soul has no Heavy Armor proficiency, which is unthinkable to a Strength-based char. Yes, there're feats to solve this proficiency issue, but with just 4 ASIs/Feat left, it's a hard call even for a Variant Human with a free feat. I picked Heavy Armor Master to increase survivability while also increasing the primary attribute and to trade that feat for Resilient is a pain in the neck. And the same can be said about Great Weapon Master.

[8wGremlin]

Don't you have to have heavy armour proficiency to

1 get the heavy armour master feat?
2 be able to cast spells in heavy armour.

[Klorox]

Don't you have to have heavy armour proficiency to

1 get the heavy armour master feat?
2 be able to cast spells in heavy armour.

He's starting as a paladin.

I would never be able to handle the MAD, but I always play point buy.

[Carlos Barreto]

Yes. The heavy armor proficiency is the main reason to start as a Paladin instead of Sorcerer. The +4 HP is a sweet plus.

However, that strategy costs the Sorcerer's constitution proficiency. It's a shame that Paladins doesn't have such ability.

MAD is not a issue as it used to be in previous editions. The maximum stat at 20 and +2 per ASI helps to make it less terrible than it used to be. Also, since everybody loves constitution, very few classes are not MAD.

Anyway, I posted a spell list. Suggestions are welcome.

[Citan]

Yes. The heavy armor proficiency is the main reason to start as a Paladin instead of Sorcerer. The +4 HP is a sweet plus.

However, that strategy costs the Sorcerer's constitution proficiency. It's a shame that Paladins doesn't have such ability.

MAD is not a issue as it used to be in previous editions. The maximum stat at 20 and +2 per ASI helps to make it less terrible than it used to be. Also, since everybody loves constitution, very few classes are not MAD.

Anyway, I posted a spell list. Suggestions are welcome.
I strongly disagree with you on this. While the Paladin indeed has many concentration spells, his main thing is to smite away. He also get many useful spells that do not require concentration (such as Command).
And he's supposed to take less hits than Sorcerer since he has heavy armor.
And he's supposed to have great Constitution since he's a frontliner.
And HE GETS +CHA TO ALL SAVES from lvl6 onwards, which is plain better than proficiency for most of his life.
So for a pure Paladin, concentration (constitution) proficiency is really not a priority. Compare that to Wisdom which is the target for many of the most dangerous spells (such as Dominate or Bestow Curse for the most obvious) which could straight disable you or worst turn you against your allies...
You REALLY want to be on the safe side of this, because nobody wants a Pally as an enemy. XD

@OP: Considering you can already get Haste from a plain Sorcerer, I would suggest you to think about the alternative of going Devotion Paladin and use Magic Initiate on a Warlock class, or just drop the Hex/HM idea altogether.
Hex is plain better than Hunter's Mark (works also with spell attacks, puts a disadvantage on ability check -for example, on STR or DEX so you can easily grapple him ^^- and lasts also an hour) and you get also Eldricht Blast as a bonus.

AND you get instead a +CHA to ALL weapon attacks (against ANY enemy and works with ranged if really needed).
Meaning that you get the same bonus to hit and to damage, but against any enemy instead of just one. And you can prepare the Sacred Weapon during a dead turn where you are just closing in anyways, instead of having to come close to the BBEG to activate Vow of Enmity.

The drawback is that you need to use a Feat for this.
But, taking into account concentration economy, you could also just use Haste, especially with Sacred Weapon.
Against a single-enemy, you lose maybe a few points in damage overall Actually not, see below. You're overall much more efficient since you can reliably use GWM against any enemy (whereas with Vow of Enmity, once your sworn enemy is dead, you're back to plain attack against others).
And even against a single-enemy, it's better to use Haste than Hunter's Mark.
Considering +5 to hit is always equal or better than advantage, we can say that the chances to hit are the same in both cases.
So, Haste against Hunter'sMark / Hex.
Haste : (1d10+10)*3 = 16,5 + 30 = 46,5 = 46,5 average.
Hunter's Mark : (1d10+10+1d6)*2 = 11 + 22 + 7 = 40 average.
Sure, Haste is 3rd level, but as a Sorcerer you can use it far more often than you would as a pure Paladin so no problem here. ;)




I think it's the trade is more than worth it, but it's a matter of taste. :)

[Arkhios]

And HE GETS +CHA TO ALL SAVES from lvl6 onwards, which is plain better than proficiency for most of his life. ... nobody wants a Pally as an enemy. XD

Although that's hardly going to be a problem if you started as a Pally, since they get Proficiency with Wisdom, topped with the same Charisma to Wisdom as well. :smalltongue:

[Citan]

Although that's hardly going to be a problem if you started as a Pally, since they get Proficiency with Wisdom, topped with the same Charisma to Wisdom as well. :smalltongue:
Well, that's exactly my point, much better to be THAT good in Wisdom saves than in Constitution saves for a Paladin. :smalltongue:

[Gignere]

Sounds like OP is starting at level 20 since he seem to only care about level 9 spells. I have played D&D for nearly 30 years now I have played in exactly one game with level 9 spells ever, that is because we started an epic campaign. My advice optimize between levels 1 - 12 never worry about level 9 spells that you get access to at level 20 based on proposed build.

Why get HAM? This is a character that can eventually get shield as a reaction + full plate and if need to shield of faith layered on top. Hell if going gets rough break out an actual shield and if you are still worried about 3 damage a hit layer on mirror image. You might get hit once or twice an encounter HAM will be even worse at high levels for a sorcerer multi, than for other tank builds.

Not sure why you even want a two handed weapon for your build. You won't even get a second swing with the weapon until level 8 (haste). Before that you are relying on probably booming blade/or Greenflameblade for damage along with a bonus attack from spirit weapon. So besides looking cool for about 8 levels you do about as much damage as Sword and Board with dueling, however you have two less AC.

I would strongly suggest that you consider going Dex instead and start as Favored Soul, and multi into Paladin. Yeah no heavy armor so what? With sword and board you still end up with 19 AC,if you pick defense 20 AC. Get Warcaster as your Vhuman feat. I agree with above poster that Life and War domains are not as good for how you are considering to play.

I will also suggest consider 6 paladin maybe even 8 paladin, Charisma to saves is just that good.

[Arkhios]

Actually, at later levels the damage that monsters deal doesn't really rise that high when compared to what the character can deal.
And purely from the perspective of Concentration due to damage taken, that -3 to damage escalates to a bigger effect. An ancient brass dragon (Challenge 20) for example deals an average of 17 damage with its weapons (which are not considered magical). You subtract three points from the damage dealt, and after that you divide the resulting damage by 2., 17-3=14; 14:2=7, A concentration DC would be 10. Even if a dragon dealt a critical hit with its attacks, 34-3=31; 31:2=15.5, Concentration DC would be 15 in average. without HAM, it would be 17, which is in the current economy actually a huge difference. Even the AC, which is technically a DC, can't for the most time increase above 30, rarely even above 25.

[Citan]

Sounds like OP is starting at level 20 since he seem to only care about level 9 spells. I have played D&D for nearly 30 years now I have played in exactly one game with level 9 spells ever, that is because we started an epic campaign. My advice optimize between levels 1 - 12 never worry about level 9 spells that you get access to at level 20 based on proposed build.

Not sure why you even want a two handed weapon for your build. You won't even get a second swing with the weapon until level 8 (haste). Before that you are relying on probably booming blade/or Greenflameblade for damage along with a bonus attack from spirit weapon. So besides looking cool for about 8 levels you do about as much damage as Sword and Board with dueling, however you have two less AC.

Sounds like Gignere never took the time to actually READ the opening post before being generous enough to grant us his "30-year experience"...

You shouldn't with so condescending with people in general, especially when your post just prove you didn't even try to understand the concept behind and obviously don't know much about Favored Soul Sorcerer.
1. OP will get Extra attack at Sorcerer 6.
2. Since GFB includes a melee attack, the GWM bonus can be applied if he manages to hit in spite of the malus. So you will make MUCH MORE damage when you succeed than just one-handed weapon with dueling.
3. If he chooses Oath of Vengeance, he can reliably use GWM on one enemy, if he chooses Devotion, he can use it on everyone. Making this a very logical choice.
4. At level 8 character, with Haste and Quicken, this means he can make up to 4 attacks (Extra Attack + Haste attack + quicken Booming Blade or GFB).
All of them with GWM enabled.
Still seems a bad choice to you? :tongue:

5. It's probable that OP doesn't count on making it to 20, but just wants to be sure about his choice in case of since, once he dips, it's done forever.
And he build is, in this regard, better than yours, because it's much easier to build: start Paladin up to 3, then switch to Sorcerer and stay: survivable from start, decent at lvl 5, online at lvl8, and just better with each additional level (especially on the magic side: more slots to smite with and more spells to play with).
It's just a different way to play, that's all. :)

The only thing I agree with is Heavy Armor Master being not the best feat to spend an ASI on since it becomes less and less useful with later levels. But it's not useless either, especially at lower levels, so it's not a "bad choice" per se. Just a non-optimization choice.

[Gignere]

Sounds like Gignere never took the time to actually READ the opening post before being generous enough to grant us his "30-year experience"...

You shouldn't with so condescending with people in general, especially when your post just prove you didn't even try to understand the concept behind and obviously don't know much about Favored Soul Sorcerer.
1. OP will get Extra attack at Sorcerer 6.
2. Since GFB includes a melee attack, the GWM bonus can be applied if he manages to hit in spite of the malus. So you will make MUCH MORE damage when you succeed than just one-handed weapon with dueling.
3. If he chooses Oath of Vengeance, he can reliably use GWM on one enemy, if he chooses Devotion, he can use it on everyone. Making this a very logical choice.
4. At level 8 character, with Haste and Quicken, this means he can make up to 4 attacks (Extra Attack + Haste attack + quicken Booming Blade or GFB).
All of them with GWM enabled.
Still seems a bad choice to you? :tongue:

5. It's probable that OP doesn't count on making it to 20, but just wants to be sure about his choice in case of since, once he dips, it's done forever.
And he build is, in this regard, better than yours, because it's much easier to build: start Paladin up to 3, then switch to Sorcerer and stay: survivable from start, decent at lvl 5, online at lvl8, and just better with each additional level (especially on the magic side: more slots to smite with and more spells to play with).
It's just a different way to play, that's all. :)

The only thing I agree with is Heavy Armor Master being not the best feat to spend an ASI on since it becomes less and less useful with later levels. But it's not useless either, especially at lower levels, so it's not a "bad choice" per se. Just a non-optimization choice.

You are the one who didn't read his build. He is starting as paladin how in the world is he getting extra attacks before 7? He'll probably want smite before extra attacks so minimum 2 levels of paladin within first 5.

[Arkhios]

You are the one who didn't read his build. He is starting as paladin how in the world is he getting extra attacks before 7? He'll probably want smite before extra attacks so minimum 2 levels of paladin within first 5.

I may have missed something, But Sorcerer's Favored Soul get's Extra Attack as 6th level sorcerous origin feature. Did you take that into account?

[Gignere]

I may have missed something, But Sorcerer's Favored Soul get's Extra Attack as 6th level sorcerous origin feature. Did you take that into account?

Extra attacks is based on class levels, not character levels. If you start two levels of paladin when are you going to get sorcerer 6? Later OP was leaning towards 3 levels of paladin so I assume he would want 3 levels of paladin before 5.

[Corran]

Personaly I think most gishes (especially paladorcs) work better with S&B rather than with a 2 hander. Though I could see why a pure EK could possibly go with a 2 hander, as gains more extra attacks (though S&B is very competitive, and archery is straightforward better than using a two hander).

Anyway, by using a two hander, the first thing you want is extra attacks. Favoured soul origin gives you just one extra attack at 6th sorcerer level (a bit late, especially considering you have to multiclass to get access to martial weapons, so that pushes the extra attack even further, till then you will use a weapon cantrip, which dont benefit by using a two hander instead of a one hander). Anyway, assuming you are willing to wait till your extra attack kicks in (which restricts you to favoured soul, and imo again, one extra attack does not cut it), the second thing you have to examine, is what spells (especially which concentration spells) will help you with figthing with a two hander. Right now I am going to assume that you plan on taking the feat GWM, otherwise there is not really much reason to fight with a two hander in the first place. Avoiding S&B in order to not take warcaster is a bad move, as warcaster is by far the best feat for S&B gishes, dont view it as a feat tax, it is actually pretty good in such a scenario, especially for a paladorc. But I am rambling again. Back to spell selection. There are 3 concentration spells that work well with GWM, namely bless, haste, and finally greater invisibility. Haste has many problems when used in melee, be careful. Haste and greater invisibility are in the sorcerer's spell list, so the extra spells from favoured soul start losing their appeal, once you decide on how you will use your concentration. And bless wont offer much, as by the time you gain your extra attack you will already have haste, and will be one far away from taking greater invisibility. Starting as paladin or fighter, means that the proficiency bonuses from FS also become irrelevant. So essentially you select this origin for just one extra attack, which will probably come at level 7 or 8. And by level 11 your GFB/BB powers up.

If you still intend on playing a mc'ed FS using a two hander, at least choose a domain that will give you utility spells or spells that fit your theme (and avoid spells that require in-combat concentration, as you get those from the sorcerer's spell list).

Oh, and one last thing, if you decide starting as a paladin instead of a fighter, you will have to take resilient con, so that is your ''feat tax'' (not really a feat tax) right there, as it would be warcaster if you played S&B. And you would not be restricted to the FS origin, which really all that offers you is your extra attack (just one), which will be a considerable benefit between levels 7-10 (or even 8-10, which is only 3 levels). Then it starts losing in value.

[Citan]

You are the one who didn't read his build. He is starting as paladin how in the world is he getting extra attacks before 7? He'll probably want smite before extra attacks so minimum 2 levels of paladin within first 5.

Well, I read perfectly right: I did say that you get Extra Attack at Sorcerer 6.
Where I misunderstood is, in your post, when you spoke about "not getting a second attack before 8th with Haste", the formulation seemed to imply you thought it would be the most he'd ever get. My apologies on that.

For the rest though, my arguments stand. ;à)

Personaly I think most gishes (especially paladorcs) work better with S&B rather than with a 2 hander. Though I could see why a pure EK could possibly go with a 2 hander, as gains more extra attacks (though S&B is very competitive, and archery is straightforward better than using a two hander).

There are 3 concentration spells that work well with GWM, namely bless, haste, and finally greater invisibility. Haste has many problems when used in melee, be careful.
If you still intend on playing a mc'ed FS using a two hander, at least choose a domain that will give you utility spells or spells that fit your theme (and avoid spells that require in-combat concentration, as you get those from the sorcerer's spell list).

Could you please elaborate on that? I have no idea of what you are talking about...
Also, I agree with you on the fact that GFB would become usually a bit better at higher lvls (then much better in latest levels) than just hitting with Extra Attack, but hey, it's not like Extra Attack would become useless. ;)
There are two cases where it could be better imo:
- against fire resistant/immune enemies (you won't fight such sooo often, but there are still quite a few).
- when you want to nova smite (because GFB is still only one melee hit).
Also agreed on comments about Domain choice. :)

[Corran]

Could you please elaborate on that? I have no idea of what you are talking about...
Also, I agree with you on the fact that GFB would become usually a bit better at higher lvls (then much better in latest levels) than just hitting with Extra Attack, but hey, it's not like Extra Attack would become useless. ;)
There are two cases where it could be better imo:
- against fire resistant/immune enemies (you won't fight such sooo often, but there are still quite a few).
- when you want to nova smite (because GFB is still only one melee hit).
Also agreed on comments about Domain choice. :)
Assuming you can precast it, so it wont mess with your action economy (but even if this is not the case), the main drawback of haste is what happens when you lose concentration, in which case you lose your next turn. Losing a turn is very very bad in 5e, as most combats dont last many turns to begin with. That means that if you plan on self-buffing yourself with haste, and you are in melee (which means you get targeted more often than you would if you had been at a range), you really need to invest in your concentration checks. That is why I think that self-hasting works better with sharpshooter builds or resilient(con) GWM OoV paladins.

Resistant to fire enemies are common, sure, that is why you take both GFB and BB.

About nova and extra attack, I agree. But that is very situational (or should be very situational), meaning you should only do it if you are thinking you are about to lose (or when you have free crits, eg against a held target). Even in such cases, if you have a way to trigger the secondary effect of a cantrip you will more or less deal the same amount of damage (as with spamming smites with the extra attack) at a much lower cost. But yes, there may be times when you will be thankfull for having the extra attack and spare spell slots. But that is how important usually (one) extra attack is for builds with acccess to scag cantrips, it has a situational value.

[Citan]

Assuming you can precast it, so it wont mess with your action economy (but even if this is not the case), the main drawback of haste is what happens when you lose concentration, in which case you lose your next turn. Losing a turn is very very bad in 5e, as most combats dont last many turns to begin with. That means that if you plan on self-buffing yourself with haste, and you are in melee (which means you get targeted more often than you would if you had been at a range), you really need to invest in your concentration checks. That is why I think that self-hasting works better with sharpshooter builds or resilient(con) GWM OoV paladins.

Resistant to fire enemies are common, sure, that is why you take both GFB and BB.

About nova and extra attack, I agree. But that is very situational (or should be very situational), meaning you should only do it if you are thinking you are about to lose (or when you have free crits, eg against a held target). Even in such cases, if you have a way to trigger the secondary effect of a cantrip you will more or less deal the same amount of damage (as with spamming smites with the extra attack) at a much lower cost. But yes, there may be times when you will be thankfull for having the extra attack and spare spell slots. But that is how important usually (one) extra attack is for builds with acccess to scag cantrips, it has a situational value.
Ok I understand what you mean.
While all your points are very true, in the context of the Sorcerer, we should not forget that they can Quicken their spells, meaning that while it's indeed a pain to lose Concentration, you mitigate somewhat the loss if you need to recast it.

Also, I don't understand why you'd prefer Vengeance for Vow of Enmity against Sacred Weapon (if that was your point at least) for builds using a -5+10 feat.
Unless you are surprised by a fight, it's very easy to activate Sacred Weapon during a "preparation" round. For example, while everyone is hidden, or while you move to close in. Also, for a Sorcerer, it is not a full loss of round should he need to engage immediately since he, again, can Quicken a spell. And, you are more efficient througout the fight and not against only one enemy.

Ah, I think I guess: you usually prefer Vengeance because its efficiency doesn't depend on a stat, so you can "dump" CHA to passable levels to boost attack stat AND constitution and keep ASI for feats, is that right?

Thing is, for that particular build, CHA must be high anyways so... ;)
Edit: @OP: to make a "jointure" between what Spawn of Morbo and Corran each said about feats, I'd strongly suggest to consider letting go of HAM and instead take GWM at lvl 1, then Resilient (CON) or Warcaster at lvl 4. Added bonus of Warcaster: you can use Booming Blade as AoO. Added bonus of Resilient: +1CON.

[Corran]

Ok I understand what you mean.
While all your points are very true, in the context of the Sorcerer, we should not forget that they can Quicken their spells, meaning that while it's indeed a pain to lose Concentration, you mitigate somewhat the loss if you need to recast it. Yeah, forgot about that. Still, twinning can be a very good way to profit from haste (assuming you have an ally who can profit from it). Though in this case, the fall is also double if you lose concentration.


Also, I don't understand why you'd prefer Vengeance for Vow of Enmity against Sacred Weapon (if that was your point at least) for builds using a -5+10 feat.
Unless you are surprised by a fight, it's very easy to activate Sacred Weapon during a "preparation" round. For example, while everyone is hidden, or while you move to close in. Also, for a Sorcerer, it is not a full loss of round should he need to engage immediately since he, again, can Quicken a spell. And, you are more efficient througout the fight and not against only one enemy.

Ah, I think I guess: you usually prefer Vengeance because its efficiency doesn't depend on a stat, so you can "dump" CHA to passable levels to boost attack stat AND constitution and keep ASI for feats, is that right?
I actually meant that haste works well on OoV paladins with resilient con, due to the added benefit on your con saves by aura of protection. Meaning you are relatively safe to cast haste on yourself, as your con saves will be very good. My bad for not writing it up more clearly. Not much to do with the thread discussion, it was a more general point I was trying to make.




Thing is, for that particular build, CHA must be high anyways so... ;)
True, sacred weapon can work well in a paladorc, though if you go up to 3 paladin, it is worth considering going all the way up to at least 6 for auraa of protection, in whih case you can select freely some other sorcerer origin without losing practically anything, expect for some extra spells that come from the cleric domain. Although as I said earlier, you ve got everything you need for combat from the sorcerer's spell list. Imo FS works better for single class sorcerers or for sorcerers that are not looking for dips with extra attacks, usually this means 1-2 level dips at most.


Edit: @OP: to make a "jointure" between what Spawn of Morbo and Corran each said about feats, I'd strongly suggest to consider letting go of HAM and instead take GWM at lvl 1, then Resilient (CON) or Warcaster at lvl 4. Added bonus of Warcaster: you can use Booming Blade as AoO. Added bonus of Resilient: +1CON. Resilient also gives you a bonus to con saves, this is also importnt. Warcaster does indeed play well with BB for OAs, but I think resilient con is generally better for characters who use two handers due to warcaster losing in value, so that resilient con becomes slightly better imo in this case.

[Carlos Barreto]

Sounds like OP is starting at level 20 since he seem to only care about level 9 spells.

I really care about level 9 spells like many others D&D players. After all, it's the pinnacle of the spellcasting power from a primary spellcaster class, even if you won't play that long. Who knows? Some friends already did the 1-to-20 gameplay in 3.5e. And even if I don't go that far, others might see this thread and take the build posted here.
However, to say that I only care about level 9 spells seems to be an exaggeration. I posted a spell list with some few gaps and asking for opinions. I even posted a whole issue about comparing some cleric domains.


Why get HAM?

As said in the first post...


Heavy Armor Master feat grants +1 Str and the 3 points of damage reduction is just a life saver at the first levels and I think it still remain usefull even at higher levels (because even at higher levels you will still fight mooks or other monsters with no magical attacks).

And then later...


I picked Heavy Armor Master to increase survivability while also increasing the primary attribute...

I don't know how to be more clear than that.


Not sure why you even want a two handed weapon for your build.

Well... Repeating precisely the same words I said in the same first post...


Also, I think that the lack of War Caster feat makes easier to use THW than Sword & Shield for the purpose of casting spells with somatic components. Finally, throwing Javelins for ranged combat seems easier to do while you're holding your THW in your left hand instead of having a Sword & Shield occupying both hands.

With two-handed weapon, I think I can just release the grip without any action requirement in order to free one hand (to drop an object is equivalent to release one hand. And to drop an object is not in the list of the "free object interaction" and is much faster than the mentioned actions in the list). And when I need to attack, I can use the free object interaction action to hold again the grip and attack.

But to do the same with a sword & shield seems more complicated.


You won't even get a second swing with the weapon until level 8 (haste).

Yes, I will. Favored Soul, just like Bard of Valor, receive one Extra Attack at level 6.
So Paladin 1 + Sorcerer (Favored Soul) 6 means two attacks at level 7. When I have Haste, I'll make three attacks. And as Citan mentioned before, Quicken Spell+Booming Blade can put a fourth attack into the equation, possibly with +10 thanks to Great Weapon Master. It's not so bad for a primary spell caster class.


So besides looking cool for about 8 levels you do about as much damage as Sword and Board with dueling, however you have two less AC.

Ok, this is just the Great Weapon Fighting x Dueling Fighting old issue.

d8 average damage is 4,5. Dueling gives +2, so it's 6,5.
2d6 average damage is 7. With Great Weapon Fighting, the number will be around 8,3.

For some reason that I just don't understand, people seems to complete ignore the very existence of Great Weapon Master feat, which rises the damage output from two-handed weapon to another level, stretching vastly the gap between using a one-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon. The difference is not a mere 1,8. The difference is 11,8.

Yes, I'm aware of the -5. I'm also aware of advantage. And there're N ways to get advantage to attack rolls.


I would strongly suggest that you consider going Dex instead and start as Favored Soul, and multi into Paladin.

The problem is that Paladin requires Strength 13 for multiclass, which increases even further the MAD. That said, I decided to go full Strength to play the Arcane Knight in shining armor and big sword/maul.

[Carlos Barreto]

The debate about Two-handed Weapons Vs. Sword & Board is a matter of playstyle.
Two-handed Weapon is about aggresiveness (and then, GWM is mandatory!), while Sword & Board is about defensiveness.

I don't think that a Two-handed specialist will fully benefit the War Caster feat. Wait a moment, don't get me wrong! I'm aware that advantage on Constitution saving thrown to maintain concentration is awesome, but that's just part of the feat. The second part (somatic components with hands full) is not necessary for a two-handed combatant. He can just release one of his hands from the grip and cast. So that feat benefits much more a Sword & Board specialist.

Fact is: With Human Variant, we have 1 Feat and 4 ASIs/Feats (1 ASIs/Feat is lost, unfortunately).

Strength 20 is mandatory.
Charisma 20 would be desirable, but it could work with a 18 for the sake of another feat.

It could be interesting to play a Sword & Board and take the War Caster feat from level 1. But I can do that while starting as a Paladin; I should start as a Sorcerer, which means no heavy armor proficiency.

Someone would say: Go for Dex and forget heavy armor. Ok, but Paladin multiclass demands Strength 13, an attribute that should be a dump stat in a Dex-focused build. So the solution is to focus on Strength and make Dex the dump stat. But by doing that, I need heavy armor proficiency (and Favored Souls has only medium armor proficiency), which leads us to Paladin and makes War Caster as the initial feat a big no-no.

Also, I love the idea to roll 2d6+15+5d8... Or even a 4d6+15+10d8 with a critical.

The Heavy Armor Master increases THE primary stat (Strength) while also helps to improve survivability. That's why I picked it.

About the progression:

Paladin 1 -> Sorcerer 6 -> Paladin 2 -> Sorcerer 7 -> Paladin 3 - > Sorcerer...

The reason for that is to obtain the Extra Attack and the ASIs/Feat as soon as possible (since combatants gains Extra Attack at level 5, it's not desirable to delay it to level 8 or 9) while building the "magical potency" (the slots) for Smite. Once Extra Attack kicks in (at level 7), the next level (8) would be Paladin for Smite (and the Fighting Style). With 3rd level spell slots available, that's a respectable 4d8 extra damage. The next Sorcerer level would bring level 4th spell slots for a full 5d8 Smite.

[Corran]

The debate about Two-handed Weapons Vs. Sword & Board is a matter of playstyle.
I would argue that it is also a matter of synergy. Two-handed weapon tend to work better with more instances of extra attack (EK is the perfect gish if you want to go with a 2 hander). Quickened cantrip is not a reliable source of adding to your attacks, as you are limited in sorcerer points per adventuring day, plus it is not the only way with which you can use you bonus action, or even your quickened spell for that matter. Furthermore, the extra attack (even only one) can be gained only by going FS if you intend a heavy sorcerer build, which will lose you the benefits of better sorcerer origins as far as your build is concenred (most FS features will be redundant in your build), but more analysis on that later. Going with a two hander will also commit you to take at least 2 specific feats (GWM and resilient - more analysis on that later), while going S&B would only commit you to one feat (warcaster). If you are really set on playing a sorcerer using a two hander, fair enough, but imo it is not an optimal choice.


Two-handed Weapon is about aggresiveness (and then, GWM is mandatory!), while Sword & Board is about defensiveness.
Not quite true in this case. With a S&B build you will deal about the same damage (more if you count reactions from warcaster and smites) for levels 1-6, a bit less damage for levels 7 (when you extra attack will kick in) till 10, S&B will almost catch up at level 11, and will eventually surpass the two hander damage (with the proper build) after level 15. Remember, damage is not limited only in your action, and it heavily relies on many different choices (from what spells you use up to what origin you picked).



Anyway, from now on I will take for granted that you are going with a two-hander, and will try to suggest what I think best for a heavy sorcerer build that uses a two hander.




I don't think that a Two-handed specialist will fully benefit the War Caster feat. Wait a moment, don't get me wrong! I'm aware that advantage on Constitution saving thrown to maintain concentration is awesome, but that's just part of the feat. The second part (somatic components with hands full) is not necessary for a two-handed combatant. He can just release one of his hands from the grip and cast. So that feat benefits much more a Sword & Board specialist.Agreed. For a heavy sorcerer build that uses a two hander and aims for damage, resilient con is a better choice (if you do not already have proficiency in con saves). Though you might still consider taking warcaster, as some concentration spells are very sensitive (eg haste), and if you intend to focus on using them, you will need to boost your concentration checks significantly. Luckily, there is an even better spell than haste with not such serious drawbacks if you lose concentration. That spell is greater invisibility and it will be your best friend. This lifts the need for you to take warcaster (besides being profiient in con saves), if ofc you are willing to be a little patient until this spell comes into play. Anyway, keep in mind that a con save of +5/+6 makes using haste not a safe choice. Keep that in mind (twinning haste can be very beneficial, though as I said, be careful when using it with a mediocre con save).


Fact is: With Human Variant, we have 1 Feat and 4 ASIs/Feats (1 ASIs/Feat is lost, unfortunately).
Yeah, that's your best choice of race (despite lacking darkvision, you are not a rogue so that's fine). Your build relies heavily both on str and cha, and you will still need one or two feats, so human it is.


Strength 20 is mandatory.
Charisma 20 would be desirable, but it could work with a 18 for the sake of another feat.
20 in charisma is equally if not more important than a 20 in strength. Having access to high level spells (eventually to 9th level spells) is crucial, and the fact that you will try to be attacking with advantage (because greater invisibility), makes a 18 str good enough. After you take your feats, raise str to 18, and then use the rest of your bumps to raise charisma to 20, as charisma will start playing a more important role at higher levels. In the feat suggestion I will show at the end of my post, both your charisma and strength score will be 20, but if you decide for one reason or the other to take more feats than what I will suggest, prioritise a 20 in cha and a 18 in str, with the str bump earlier and the cha bumps in the late game.
Obviously, GWM is mandatory, as this is the very reason you went with a two hander.
You will need proficiency in con saves as well, so if you start as a paladin, you need resilient con definitelly. Though I will suggest a different approach, which will not require you to take this feat (ie resilient).


It could be interesting to play a Sword & Board and take the War Caster feat from level 1. But I can do that while starting as a Paladin; I should start as a Sorcerer, which means no heavy armor proficiency. If you would have to choose between sorcerer and paladin, starting as a paladin is a no brainer for your intended build. That means that you take GWM and resilient con asap, then raise your str, then raise twice your charisma (for final stats 18 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, 20 cha).

On a side not, it is true, S&B paladins dont take warcaster at 1st level, that's why they go paladin 4 -->sorcerer 3 --->etc (or paladin 6/7 if oath aura is important and then sorcerer 3, then back to paladin for a couple levels, etc)


Someone would say: Go for Dex and forget heavy armor. Ok, but Paladin multiclass demands Strength 13, an attribute that should be a dump stat in a Dex-focused build. So the solution is to focus on Strength and make Dex the dump stat. But by doing that, I need heavy armor proficiency (and Favored Souls has only medium armor proficiency), which leads us to Paladin and makes War Caster as the initial feat a big no-no. It is true, if you multiclass in paladin, it is better to go for str instead of dex, to avoid MAD. But since you are going for a two hander, you will go str despite the paly's str requirement, as there are no heavy finesse weapons. So str is the default choice due to fighting style. Dex works well for dragon sorcerers (obviously).
Also, it is true, you will need heavy armor as FS proficiencies are a joke. And they will become entirely redundant, as most of the other features of this origin for your build. Still, we need this origin for extra attack, since you are going with a two hander and you want a heavy sorcerer build (9th level spells).


Also, I love the idea to roll 2d6+15+5d8... Or even a 4d6+15+10d8 with a critical.Agreed, this is nice when it happens. And quickening a high level hold person works well with smites. Though it is a trick better suited for a S&B paladorc. You know why? Because two hander sorcerer builds work better with a light fighter dip, rather than with a light paladin dip. I will analyse this at the end of the my reply. This is important.


The Heavy Armor Master increases THE primary stat (Strength) while also helps to improve survivability. That's why I picked it. Not a bad feat, especially if you take it at an early level, but considering your other options and your needs, it simply falls too short. Avoid that feat. The +1 to str essentially translates to a +2 to dex or wis, which are not important for your build, and you could leave with a 8 dex and 10 wis.



About the progression:

Paladin 1 -> Sorcerer 6 -> Paladin 2 -> Sorcerer 7 -> Paladin 3 - > Sorcerer...

The reason for that is to obtain the Extra Attack and the ASIs/Feat as soon as possible (since combatants gains Extra Attack at level 5, it's not desirable to delay it to level 8 or 9) while building the "magical potency" (the slots) for Smite. Once Extra Attack kicks in (at level 7), the next level (8) would be Paladin for Smite (and the Fighting Style). With 3rd level spell slots available, that's a respectable 4d8 extra damage. The next Sorcerer level would bring level 4th spell slots for a full 5d8 Smite.
You have the right idea. Though I argue that your 8th level must be in sorcerer (ie sorcerer level 7), in order to get access to the greater invisibility spell. This is your concentration spell you must focus your build around. It gives you advantage on your attacks (which is much needed given that you will use the GWM feat), and it also gives disadvantage to all other attacks made against you, and grants you immunity to OAs and several other spells that require your enemy to see you (most spells that target your saves). In fact, if that spell wasnt an option for you, going with a two hander would be a total waste. So this is a priority. You must have it by level 8. Plus you can always twin it and give a major boost to an ally (preferably rogue, GWM or sharpshooter, in that order of significance).

Ok, so now we have your concentration spell. And we know that you have to start with a class that gives you proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons. So you start with a martial class, and then you go up to sorcerer 7. These are your first 8 levels right there.

Why fighter and not paladin? First of all, fighter lets you gain proficiency with con saves, so that is one free feat right off the butt. Secondly, second wind will work much better than lay on hands (10 or 15). Second wind will allow you to heal 3-4 times the hp a lay on hands would, during an adventurung day, and you can also do it while in-combat (takes only a bonus action, not every round will you be quickening spells), while lay on hands takes an action and is limited to only off-combat uses, given the amount it will heal. Now the big comparison, smites against action surge. Smites are fun, I know, especially when you have a good caster progression. Though your appropriate spell slots will be much more limited than you imagine. In actual game play you will need to spend several low level (1-4) spell slots for uses other than smite (gr.invisibility, quickend mirror image, multiple catings of shield, etc), and using high level slots to smite (5-9) simply is not worth it. On the other hand, action surge plays well with your extra attack and GWM, allowing you to go better nova than with two level 4 smites (and level 4 smites is the most optimistic case, usually it will be worse, or rather, the average of your nova during multiple encounters will be worse than 10d8 from two lvl 4 smites). Action surge will give you two extra attacks at advanatage (due to gr invisibility), for 4d6+30, 1 point below 10d8, and as I said, 10d8 is above the average of your actual smite nova. But the biggest benefit of action surge, is that it allows you to break action economy in a very special way. Unlike quickened spell which allows you an extra cantrip (or in your case the attack action) and a spell with no metamagic benefits on it, action surge allows you to cast two spells in the same round and use any metamagic you want with these two spells. Casting a 9th level and a 8th level spell in the same round? Oh yeah...! How about two (heightened) disintegrate's in one round, how is that for a nova? Action surge plays better than smite with casters (fine, you are a gish, you will still have access to 9th level spells though, you are not very different to a pure pansy sorcerer, in a good way, meaning that you have a terrific spell progression).
Dont forget the extra feat (you can always spend it for resilient wis, if losing wis save prof from not going with paly is a big deal to you, though I do not suggest it. Greater invisibility will take care of most wis save effects (meaning that many of them wont be able to even target you - that is some great synergy there, but as I told, if not for this spell, two hander would be a really bad choice).

Oh, and if you decide to take a third level in your martial class, then fighter still plays better than paladin (as maneuvres work slighlty better than sacred weapon from OoD - precise plays well with GWM, so does trip attack, and your charisma will be set at 16 for a big part of your adventuring carrer, plus sacred weapon wont always be an option, only just when you actually have an opportunity to precast it, as during combat it cartainly is not worth of your action since you are a GWM).



Finally, my suggestion. Initial stats (with racial bonuses): 16 str, 8 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, 16 cha.
Human variant. Start as a fighter. Then go up to sorcerer 7 for extra attack and greater invisibility. Then take your second fighter level. Then all the way with sorcerer up to level 20. You can grab a third level in fighter for battlemaster maneuvres somewhere between levels 9 and 20, if you want to add a bit more martial goodness to your character, though I dont think further delaying your spell progression and your sorcery points is a good idea. Maybe have it be your 20th level, or not even take it at all (dont remember what the last feature of the FS does, but one more sorcery point does not hurt. Besides GWM which you will take at 1st level, all your other ASIs will go to ability bumps. At 5th level take +2 str, at 10 level take +2 str, and then raise cha with your rest 2 ASIs. Final stats 20 str, 8 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, 20 cha.

For FS domain, look at the one with the least concentration spells, you have this covered with greater invisibility (seriously, there is not better concentration spell for your build, at least as far as figthing in melee goes). Pick one domain with spells that offer utility or support, especially for out of combat. Those spells for you are there just for versatility. As I said numerous times before, FS does not really offer you much, you will only take it due to the extra attack, since you want to play a heavy sorcerer fighting in melee with a two hander.


Organize your spell list in such a way that you will have regular and situational uses for all your spell slots (including upcasting spells as necessary - hold, banishment, and other similar spells, work really well if upcast, and NOT with heightened). If you find that you have some high spell slots that will not see regular use, but instead they are there to cover situational instances, consider picking 1 level of warlock just to get armor of agathys, and use it with this slot (that wil put you at fighter2/warlock1/sorcerer17), and only do so after you gain access to that spell slot that wont see much regular use. AoA plays well with melee builds if you cast it with a high enough slot (and by high enough I mean preferably above 5th level spell slot). Hopefully, you will find several spells (given that you will have a very high charisma) to use with all of your spell slots, so that level of warlock will not become necessary.

A last tip. Besides greater invisibility, pick one or two more concentration spells that will act as your alternative strategy. You dont need more than that in the concentration spells department, 3 spells can cover all combat instances if appropriatelly picked.

Edit: If you decided to follow my suggestion (mainly going with fighter instead of paladin), then take defense figthing style instead of gwf style. If you trusted me on everything else, then just trust me on this too, as I am too bored to explain it (short version, disadvantage on incoming attacks and a base AC of 18, make that +1 AC weight more, while twf style is not much when applied to 4d6 per round.

Edit2: And just to be clear, the level progression I suggest is Fighter1 --->sorcerer7 ---->fighter2 ----> sorcerer17, and then pick either warlock, fighter or sorcerer for your final level (with the exeption that you could potentially pick warlock a bt earlier, if you have problems utilising your high level slots, but with 20 charisma I dont think that will be an issue).


ps: 3 fighter/17 warlock is probably closer to what you are looking to play.

[Citan]

Why fighter and not paladin? First of all, fighter lets you gain proficiency with con saves, so that is one free feat right off the butt. Secondly, second wind will work much better than lay on hands (10 or 15). Second wind will allow you to heal 3-4 times the hp a lay on hands would, during an adventurung day, and you can also do it while in-combat (takes only a bonus action, not every round will you be quickening spells), while lay on hands takes an action and is limited to only off-combat uses, given the amount it will heal. Now the big comparison, smites against action surge. Smites are fun, I know, especially when you have a good caster progression. Though your appropriate spell slots will be much more limited than you imagine. In actual game play you will need to spend several low level (1-4) spell slots for uses other than smite (gr.invisibility, quickend mirror image, multiple catings of shield, etc), and using high level slots to smite (5-9) simply is not worth it. On the other hand, action surge plays well with your extra attack and GWM, allowing you to go better nova than with two level 4 smites (and level 4 smites is the most optimistic case, usually it will be worse, or rather, the average of your nova during multiple encounters will be worse than 10d8 from two lvl 4 smites). Action surge will give you two extra attacks at advanatage (due to gr invisibility), for 4d6+30, 1 point below 10d8, and as I said, 10d8 is above the average of your actual smite nova. But the biggest benefit of action surge, is that it allows you to break action economy in a very special way. Unlike quickened spell which allows you an extra cantrip (or in your case the attack action) and a spell with no metamagic benefits on it, action surge allows you to cast two spells in the same round and use any metamagic you want with these two spells. Casting a 9th level and a 8th level spell in the same round?

Oh, and if you decide to take a third level in your martial class, then fighter still plays better than paladin (as maneuvres work slighlty better than sacred weapon from OoD - precise plays well with GWM, so does trip attack, and your charisma will be set at 16 for a big part of your adventuring carrer, plus sacred weapon wont always be an option, only just when you actually have an opportunity to precast it, as during combat it cartainly is not worth of your action since you are a GWM).

I globally agree with the rest of your long post but these two are ticking me.

1. You're overselling the Fighter 2 dip.
a) You said yourself that for a Sorcerer chassis, cantrips will get better damage than plain attacks at higher lvls. So for Fighter to realy be worth it, it would require to main Fighter up to 11. Otherwise said, dip is good mainly for nova.
b) What you say about casting two spells is simply wrong. Confer the PHB: You can’t cast another spell during the same
turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
Unless you get me an official ruling source (or forum argument) that tells that it only specifically targets spells cast with a bonus action (= it does not apply to spells cast with an action).

2. Same for Manoeuvers: while I agree that they can be very useful, it means that, supposing dice are consumed only on Precision Attack, you get 4 better hits per short rest. Compared to dozens of hits per short rest.
Sure, 1d8 average is 4,5, so it would be a bit better than Sacred Weapon for first levels. But, since you advised (and I really agree with you on this) to max CHA asap, Sacred Weapon could become nearly as good as soon as lvl4 and better at lvl 8.

As for the rest, it's really a matter of taste. Considering that OP hopes going all the way up to 17th, I guess he will rely more and more on spells cast and smite.
If what you say about Action Surge is legit for 2 spells, for a lvl2+ dip then it's a better choice indeed from an optimisation point of view. Otherwise, Paladin brings the most versatility (don't forget you get Cure Wounds for heal, quickened if needed).

Final word to OP: having fun is much more important than being 100% optimized. Chooses what feels the closest to your idea of character. :)

[ZenBear]

Thread TL;DR

Paladin 2/Favored Soul 18 is amazing. War Domain is the better choice IMO because while yes, most spells are Concentration, you really don't need to be casting a lot of spells. You will be Smiting most of your spell slots away. Having a bunch of excellent choices for how to use your Concentration is better than a bunch of spells you won't be casting. You overvalue Haste; Spiritual Guardians is better against crowds, Crusader's Mantle is better when you have a lot of attacks in your party (Monk, TWF, etc.). Haste is great, no doubt about it, but don't assume it's the only Concentration spell worth using.

JMO

[Corran]

Going sorcerer all the way up to 17/18 level, thus eventually gaining access to 9th level spells, but even more importantly following a full caster progression during your adventuring career, means that you have better ways to use your action other than casting a cantrip or taking the attack action, more often than not. Because seriously, for all intents and purposes you are a spellcaster, no matter what the rest 2-3 levels will be. This is why a sorcerer 17/18 should have second thoughts about multiclassing in order to go into melee.

That in turn means, that if for some reason you decide to start with a couple ''martial'' levels for proficiencies in order to go into melee, it is better to lean towards S&B rather than GWF, for the reason that GWF benefits from using your attack action in a regular basis (which comes at a great opportunity cost as I explained in the start of this post), and it also benefits from more extra attacks (which restricts you to FS which is not a good domain for mc'ed sorcerer gishes, rather it is best for pure sorcerer builds as its main benefit is that it mitigates the need to multiclass, and hence allows you to not interupt your sorcerer progression, and almost all its bonuses become redundant the moment you decide to multiclass your sorcerer with a ''martial'' class for proficiencies - the lack of synergy is astonishing!). At least with S&B you add another dimension to your character (stickiness and survivability), while GWF comes with the inherent opportunity cost of using your attack actions at the cost of actually casting spells (if you play ''wrong''), or at the cost of not using your attack action so often to justify all the investment you put in it (2-3 martial levels, slower sorcerer progression, and 1-2 feats, ie GWM and possibly resilient con). While the only feat tax a S&B build would impose would be warcaster, which is actually useful in many ways you need it to be, and is what adds by itself alone an extra dimension to your build (stickiness through BB and warcaster). This is why even if for your own reasons (usually because of style, or party optimization, or a combination of the two) you decide to multiclass in order to go into melee, S&B is better than GWF (always for a build that has 17-18 levels in sorcerer).

Assuming 2 or 3 levels maximum a dip in a martial class for our 17/18 sorcerer, we have:
1) free feat is better than proficiency in wisdom saves (worst case you pick resilient wisdom)
2) second wind is better than lay on hands
3) action surge is better than divine smite, for many and various reasons that I will not repeat here. Smiting is fun, but for such a build it is a suboptimal choice.
This is why a fighter 2 dip is better than a paladin 2 dip.

Note: If you play in a campaign that you have only one or two at a maximum fights per adventuring day, and assuming S&B, and assuming you will grab 1 level in warlock, a build of paladin2/ warlock1/ sorcerer 17 would probably be a very optimal choice. That is only because such a build has the ability to expend all or most of its resources very quickly (but does not hold all that well over consecutive fights, that is why I specified only one or two fights per adventuring day)



A few thoughts in general:

Generally, a paladin dip is usually worth it if you go up to until paladin 6 (for aura of protection), and every paladin level thereafter up till paladin 12 has something to offer with a tradeoff for losing sorcerer levels. So generally paladin dips work better for sorcerer if you decide to halt your sorcerer progression significantly (but such paladorcs make great tank and support build, with a few tricks to go all out attack at the cost of tanking slightly less worse - essentially they have the perfect mix and match tactics, according to what the encounter demands). And all that assuming that you wanted to be in melee really badly in the first place. Actually any paladin/sorcerer build involving at least 6 paladin and 3 sorcerer levels is good, and offers something different than a straight paladin or sorcerer build. (avoid FS origin)

A fighter dip is the perfect choice for a sorcerer who wants 9th level spells and the ability to be in melee if he decides to do so. (armor proficiencies and action surge are the benefits, especially the I-cannot-emphasize-enough- action surge). 2 levels and only 2 levels is what an optimized fighter/sorcerer build wants. No more, no less. (avoid FS origin)

Favoured soul sorcerers dont play well with fighter and paladin dips, they are for those who want their sorcerers to be able to stand adequately in melee (if they are forced to), without having to slow down at all their sorerer progression. Pick a race with a weapon proficiency, and possibly try a dex build (drow comes to mind as a good race, for rapier, and the bonuses in dex and cha. Ironically, FS drow sorcerers seem to be the counterpart to high elf bladesingers, both in term of flavour and combat role). Perhaps a rogue dip would work well here, though I admit I have not really looked into it.

[Gignere]

A few thoughts in general:

Generally, a paladin dip is usually worth it if you go up to until paladin 6 (for aura of protection), and every paladin level thereafter up till paladin 12 has something to offer with a tradeoff for losing sorcerer levels. So generally paladin dips work better for sorcerer if you decide to halt your sorcerer progression significantly (but such paladorcs make great tank and support build, with a few tricks to go all out attack at the cost of tanking slightly less worse - essentially they have the perfect mix and match tactics, according to what the encounter demands). And all that assuming that you wanted to be in melee really badly in the first place. Actually any paladin/sorcerer build involving at least 6 paladin and 3 sorcerer levels is good, and offers something different than a straight paladin or sorcerer build. (avoid FS origin)

A fighter dip is the perfect choice for a sorcerer who wants 9th level spells and the ability to be in melee if he decides to do so. (armor proficiencies and action surge are the benefits, especially the I-cannot-emphasize-enough- action surge). 2 levels and only 2 levels is what an optimized fighter/sorcerer build wants. No more, no less. (avoid FS origin)

Favoured soul sorcerers dont play well with fighter and paladin dips, they are for those who want their sorcerers to be able to stand adequately in melee (if they are forced to), without having to slow down at all their sorerer progression. Pick a race with a weapon proficiency, and possibly try a dex build (drow comes to mind as a good race, for rapier, and the bonuses in dex and cha. Ironically, FS drow sorcerers seem to be the counterpart to high elf bladesingers, both in term of flavour and combat role). Perhaps a rogue dip would work well here, though I admit I have not really looked into it.

This is pretty much spot on. A two handing smite monster as the OP wants to play, really needs a lot more paladin levels or in actual play he might not live past level 5. Two handing with only sorcerer hit dice even with HAM is asking to be killed. Think about how many melee classes drop in 5E and they have d10 - d12 hit die, so how will a basically d6 hit die character without a shield and no plate yet(last I checked it takes about level 4 - 5 to have enough gold to scrounge up a suit of plate) going to make it to level 7?

[joaber]

b) What you say about casting two spells is simply wrong. Confer the PHB: You can’t cast another spell during the same
turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
Unless you get me an official ruling source (or forum argument) that tells that it only specifically targets spells cast with a bonus action (= it does not apply to spells cast with an action).


In fact he is correct. The rule you're refering is in page 202 of PHB Casting time > bonus action. You can't cast one spell with your action AND bonus action. There isn't nothing about cast 2 spells using 2 actions in the same turn, you really can do this. But action surge is the only thing that give you another action without restriction (like haste does).
You can check in sage advice for Action Surge + spell.

[Citan]

In fact he is correct. The rule you're refering is in page 202 of PHB Casting time > bonus action. You can't cast one spell with your action AND bonus action. There isn't nothing about cast 2 spells using 2 actions in the same turn, you really can do this. But action surge is the only thing that give you another action without restriction (like haste does).
You can check in sage advice for Action Surge + spell.
Hi, thanks for confirming.
I find it a bit strange conceptually (since the "bonus spell" restriction strongly hints that casting spells takes a huge toll) but since it works by RAW... ^^
In that case for a spellcaster it's indeed a very interesting dip. ;)

[Corran]

@Citan: Yeah, sorry about that, I meant to come back and confirm that it indeed works but I forgot, I didnt ignore it on purpose.

@Gignere: Btw, the build the op want to play, wont be that prone to dying if he uses the right spells. With shield as a reaction from level 2, and using blur with his conentration up until character level 8 (sorcerer 7) when he gets greater invisibility, he will only be weak AC-wise, at character level 3 (when blur is supposed to start working but instead he takes it the next level). He will be however vulnerable to things that target his dex and wis, so he has to worry about that. Still, a suboptimal build for many other reasons.

[Carlos Barreto]

Added Blur and Greater Invisibility to the spell list. I can hardly believe I forgot those spells!

First, I would like to appologize for taking so long to reply this post.

The Paladin's Smite Vs. Fighter's Action Surge issue: Despite Corran has presented some really strong arguments in favor of Action Surge, I'm still not 100% confident that it is better, because both features has it's own merits. Indeed, Action Surge allows two Disintegrates (and unlike Twin Spell, it can be aimed at the same target) while preserving spell slots for true spells. That's Awesome!! on the other hand, Smite is always 100% guaranteed extra damage; there's no such thing as a missed Smite because you can choose it after your attack roll, specially when you saw that natural 20 popping up for a sweet 10d8 extra damage (or even 12d8, if the target is undead or demon). And while it will burn spell slots, you can use it in a chain. Three smites in a round for a sort of Limit Break? Yes, please.

However... The Constitution proficiency is a serious business. That alone is a key factor and it's good enough (at least for me) to choose the Fighter over the Paladin. And I can't forget to mention that to have a Fighting Style right out of the box at level one instead of gaining it somewhere several levels later is really neat.

Because of that, I started my character as a Fighter and now, after some few deadly fights, he's a young Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1.

The Heavy Armor Master Feat: I just grabbed it! It's a great feat and you can find all over the internet players praising it. It's a god-sent lifesaver in a moment of so high mortality as it is in the first levels. And it will be useful even at higher levels because magic weapons and magical attacks aren't so common in this edition and it's likely you will still fight lower level monsters sometimes.

Also, there's +1 to Strength. Combined with the +1 to two stats and the 27 point buy system, you can start with Strength 16, Constitution 16 and Charisma 16 in a hope that you'll have Strength and Charisma at 20 someday. Yes, I know what you're thinking. It sucks to have Dex 8 and Wis 8 (Int is dump stat in any case), but optimization has its price. The +3 Constitution modifier is needed to improve the chance to keep your concentration. Moreover, it increases your HP. A gish Favored Soul Sorcerer in shining full plate, red cape and big weapons with his d6 (avg. 4) and +3 HP is as good as a War Cleric in shining full plate, red cape and big weapons with his d8 (avg. 5) and +2 HP; both has average +7 HP per level (I think most players choose the fixed average HP in 5th edition, so I think my reasoning is correct).

The Domain: I really love the War domain, but just thematically. As said in the first post, 7 out of 10 spells requires concentration. They are really amazing, but they compete with spells like Blur, Greater Invisibility, Fly or Haste. That's bad, really bad. On top of that, both War and Life domains shares the amazing Spiritual Weapon spell, so War domain loses another spell in its favor. Flame Strike can be satisfatory superseeded by a classic Fire Ball. So there's only one spell left, Freedom of Movement. That said, I may be wrong, but I think Life domain would be the big winner here, with just 2 spells requiring concentration (and even that is not so bad because Beacon of Hope can be used out of combat to maximize healing spells like Mass Cure Wounds).

Evolution: I came to the conclusion that the fifth ASIs/Feat at Sorcerer 19 is essential to the Variant Human Favored Soul. Starting as Fighter with Strength, Constitution and Charisma at 16 and Heavy Armor Master Feat, it would end as Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 with Strength and Charisma at 20 plus Great Weapon Fighting. As a little bonus, it would have 2 extra Sorcery Points and extra spells slots.

However, in my current game, the DM banned Variant Human and gave everybody a free feat! Of course I chose Half-Elf. With Strength 17 (thanks to Heavy Armor Master Feat), Constitution 16 and Charisma 17, it requires only 3 ASIs to increase Strength and Charisma to 20. Considering that I'll spend one ASIs/Feat with Great Weapon Master at character level 5 (Sorcerer 4), I can chose between an extra ASIs/Feat or extra two levels in a non-sorcerer class. And that's what I think would be the best option.

The question is... What should I pick?

Fighter 3?
Warlock 2?
Fighter 2/Warlock 1?

[Citan]

The question is... What should I pick?

Fighter 3?
Warlock 2?
Fighter 2/Warlock 1?
Well, seeing as how you picked Fighter mainly for Consitution proficiency but still loved the smite feature, why not Fighter 1 / Paladin 2? :) You get most of the best of both worlds. ^^

Otherwise, either Fighter 3 or Warlock 2 is fine. I'd suggest Battlemaster for Fighter so you can get extra precision when needed. Warlock is nice if you want to have a strong ranged cantrip, otherwise I'd say don't bother. Hex is great, but aren't you planning to use concentration on many other things already? :)

[Carlos Barreto]

I don't think so. I just said that I wasn't 100% confident that Action Surge is better than Smite because both features has its own merits, but I believe that both are equivalently formidable.

That said, once Fighter 1 is the ground class, it requires just 1 non-sorcerer level to take Action Surge as Fighter 2. On the other hand, it requires 2 non-sorcerer levels to take Smite. Furthermore, there's the issue of the Fighting Style redundancy, a total waste of feature. That said, I think that Paladin 2 is only optimal if you don't have any Fighter level, IMHO. At least in this Favored Soul context (for example, Fighter Champion/Paladin or Rogue seems good).

So let's consider Fighter 2. Action Surge and +1 or +2 extra HP (when compared to Warlock or Sorcerer, respectively). So what would be the best next step? One more Fighter level (Fighter 3) or Warlock 1?

I having been wondering for sometime the idea of Battle Master. It further improves the martial prowess of a Gish character with an arcane chassi far stronger than its martial chassi, despite having full martial proficiency (unlike the Favored Soul), Heavy Armor Master and Great Weapon Master. To reduce the gap between arcane power/martial prowess is a worthy, desirable goal. And my DM is considering to allow Short Rest as 5 minutes period, which makes Fighter Battle Master dip even more sweet.

Then comes the next question: What would be the best 3 maneuvers? Is not hard to choose 3 maneuvers. The problem is that they requires bonus actions or reaction actions, competing with resources like Quicken Spell metamagic or Shield spell. One argument I can think to defend the Battle Master hypothesis is that such character supposedly shouldn't be using his bonus/reaction actions every single turn, so its maneuvers could still find space to shine.

However, Warlock 1 also helps a lot. Armor of Agathys is a better version of False Life and both spells helps to improve its survivability when one attack pierce its magical defenses like Shield, Blur or Greater Invisibility spells. Hex competes for Concentration, but I see it as a good opportunity to combine with 2x Disintegrate, imposing disadvantage in the Constitution Save while adding a welcome d6. Finally, Eldritch Blast is a nice alternative to Fire Bolt, although the lack of Agonizing Blast evocation is a pity.

Tough decisions. Extra insights are welcome.

Ah, I think I need to reinforce the main idea of this build. He is mean to be an alternative version of Eldritch Knight, trading physical endurance and some martial prowess for a greater arcane power. This character should NOT be compared to Fighters or Barbarians with their d10 and d12, respectively, and therefore should NOT behave just like a Fighter or Barbarian, just trading blows with their foes. He should be compared with Valor Bards, Clerics and Monks. I know you'll say they have d8, but that's the reason why I emphasized the importance of Constitution 16 in my previous post. The trick is to make a clever, strategic use of its spells and other resources to work as intended: To survive as a primary spellcaster and secondary frontline combatant, fighting side by side with Valor Bards, Clerics and Monks while also being capable of acting as a sorcerer cannon to obliterate hordes of enemies or just zap tough bastards.

And of course, success/failure is a multifactorial issue. It depends on what challenges your DM throw at the party, the party composition itself, luck/bad luck and so on. It's important to remember that.

[Citan]

I don't think so. I just said that I wasn't 100% confident that Action Surge is better than Smite because both features has its own merits, but I believe that both are equivalently formidable.

That said, once Fighter 1 is the ground class, it requires just 1 non-sorcerer level to take Action Surge as Fighter 2. On the other hand, it requires 2 non-sorcerer levels to take Smite. Furthermore, there's the issue of the Fighting Style redundancy, a total waste of feature. That said, I think that Paladin 2 is only optimal if you don't have any Fighter level, IMHO. At least in this Favored Soul context (for example, Fighter Champion/Paladin or Rogue seems good).
Well, I suggested this since you hinted that you were strongly considering topping Sorcerer at 17 to total 3 levels dipping, and using melee cantrips first. :)


Then comes the next question: What would be the best 3 maneuvers? Is not hard to choose 3 maneuvers. The problem is that they requires bonus actions or reaction actions, competing with resources like Quicken Spell metamagic or Shield spell.
I wonder where you got this from? Many Manoeuvers are used "on-the-fly" when making a weapon attack, so no problem here, it even works RAW with melee cantrips such as GFB or Booming Blade. That's mainly the reason why I recommended this archetype over EK (essentially redundant, so brings just 1 caster lvl) or Champion (not good enough for one who plan on using mainly spells).
For your build in particular, Evasive Footwork and Precision Attack would be great.

[Carlos Barreto]

I wonder where you got this from? Many Manoeuvers are used "on-the-fly" when making a weapon attack, so no problem here, it even works RAW with melee cantrips such as GFB or Booming Blade. That's mainly the reason why I recommended this archetype over EK (essentially redundant, so brings just 1 caster lvl) or Champion (not good enough for one who plan on using mainly spells).
For your build in particular, Evasive Footwork and Precision Attack would be great.

Yes, I should have expressed myself better. Some maneuvers requires bonus/reaction actions, not all.

For example, Riposte. It requires a reaction to use, so it competes with Shield spell. However, I see a lot of synergy between Riposte and Blur. And Greater Invisibility push that synergy to another level. By imposing disadvantage to the attack roll of your enemies, they will not only hit you less often, but you will need to cast Shield spell less often too (specially after you're wearing that amazing Full Plate, that doesn't requires a maxed attribute for maximum effect!), which will trigger the opportunity to land a counter-attack through Riposte, further improving your DPR with this "out-of-your-turn free attack" and the damage bonus from Superiority Dice. However, if you also gains advantage on your attack rolls through Greater Invisibility (as you suggested early), you can combine Riposte with the "Power Blow" effect from Great Weapon Master for +10 to damage. And if you kill your foe, you can now use a bonus action to attack again another target with the "Cleaver" effect from GWM, with the same advantage, possibily hitting with another +10 extra damage.

Precision Strike seems fine. It doesn't add the Superiority Dice to the damage, but it has the potential to increase the damage from 0 to X by transforming a missed attack in a successful attack, specially if you missed that Power Blow.

I don't like Evasive Footwork. It seems to meh to me. So is the case of many other maneuvers (actually, there're few BM maneuvers that I really enjoy). For my third maneuver, I want something to use when I roll a critical hit (a chance improved by Greater Invisibility), so I can add +2d8+bad effect to the enemy. Normally I would pick Trip Attack, which is an awesome maneuver for a Battle Master, but this character already has advantage through Greater Invisibility spell. I'm considering about Menacing Attack, Pushing Attack, Maneuvering Attack. Thanks to high Charisma, I could make a good use of Rally, but I don't think it's worthy the Superiority Dice expendidutre.

Till this moment, I think Menacing Attack is the third choice.