Tank 'N' Spank character?

[LightinDark132]

As the title suggests, I'm looking to play a very "tankish" character. However, I want to be more than just a wall for my group, as that seems incredibly dull.

I want my character to be a mix somewhere between a tank and a melee dps. My primary focus being the damage while my secondary being largely unkillable and keeping enemy threat on me.


Does anyone have any suggestions for a class/build for me to look at?

[Corran]

You just described a barbarian.

[NiklasWB]

You just described a barbarian.

This pretty much sums it up. Other than that, all fighter and paladin archetypes should do the trick if built for defense/survivability.

[LightinDark132]

You just described a barbarian.

Sounds like its exactly what i'm looking for, then. How to build it to suit my needs, however? I looked at the guide list just now but they all seem to have various opions on builds and don't seem to have some of the updated errata mentioned.

[EvilAnagram]

Sounds like its exactly what i'm looking for, then. How to build it to suit my needs, however? I looked at the guide list just now but they all seem to have various opions on builds and don't seem to have some of the updated errata mentioned.
Be a half-orc.

Use a greataxe.

Pick the bear totem path.

You are now a melee tank with great dps.

Edit: For specificity, while raging you will resist all damage but psychic, your crits will deal 4d12+Str+2 damage, you will be able to make attacks with advantage all the time, and when you get reduced to 0 HP you can instead drop to 1HP one/day.

[Oramac]

What everyone else said about the Barbarian.

Your other two options are Fighter and Paladin.

[NOTE] These are just what I would do. They may not be 100% min/maxed, but should still be pretty good for what you want to do.

Fighter: Mountain Dwarf with a Sword and Board, and either the Defense or Protection fighting style. Go Battlemaster for the Maneuvers (I'd take Distracting Strike, Trip Attack, and either Disarming Strike or Precision Attack). Bump Str/Con and take the Sentinel and Shield Master Feats.

Paladin: Similar to the Fighter. Mountain Dwarf with SnB and Defense or Protection. Go Oath of the Ancients and bump Str/Con/Cha. This is a little more MAD, so not as much room for Feats, but if you think you can, I'd take Sentinel.

EDIT: Use a Warhammer. It's Versatile, so you can go two-handed if the shield is not needed. Can't use the Shield Master Feat, but there's always a trade-off.

[LightinDark132]

Be a half-orc.

Use a greataxe.

Pick the bear totem path.

You are now a melee tank with great dps.

Edit: For specificity, while raging you will resist all damage but psychic, your crits will deal 4d12+Str+2 damage, you will be able to make attacks with advantage all the time, and when you get reduced to 0 HP you can instead drop to 1HP one/day.

Pardon any ignorance but-

Is half orc really that great? 1 extra d12 1-3 times per game (If i'm lucky) doesn't seem all that great of a DPS boost. The dropping down to 1hp does seem nice but not immensly useful.

However, I have a thought/question. It seems that barbs have barely any use for wis/cha and int seems to be almost entirely worthless. Dex doesn't seem much better as a stat, either. I could easily start off with S15/D14/C15 and still have 2 points left over. So racial choice doesn't seem -that- focused on starting stats as long as I start with a least a +1 in Str and Con. Making the racial features seem to have more of an importance than not.

In this case, Human Variant and Warforged seem much better without much trade-off. Mountain Dwarf has potential as well, as I can start off at 17/14/17 and make them both 18 by level 4.

Feel free to correct me, simply making observations.

[Corran]

To add to Evil Anagram's advice, pick GWM feat at 4th level. Having constant advantage from reckless attack works perfectly with the -5/+10 mechanic of the GWM feat. After that, as far as ASIs are concerned, your best options include +2 str, polearm master and sentinel. Personally I would go with polearm master at 8 and sentinel at 12, while hoping for an item that boosts str, but you can max your str first and then add more feats. Just pick GWM at 4th level, and whatever you do after that, you cant go wrong.

Human variant is not a bad choice for a barbarian either. Doesnt get the halforc's features, but being one feat ahead is not a small deal.

[Joe the Rat]

You want all the physical stats. Dex 14 is sufficient, unless you really want to be a naked tank (but boost that Con first!). If you need to bump a 4th stat for some reason, Wisdom is really useful (perception, resisting mind effects)

Skills: Grab Athletics. Sometimes you want to push people around. You have advantage on this when you rage. You mostly want to use this to knock people down for your team-mates, or to push someone into a better position for your archers and casters (away from them, into an area of effect, etc.). Stealth makes you a good back-up man for your scouts... so long as you aren't covered in clanging metal. Your other skills will mostly be about making you suck less at specific mental/social stuff. Perception is always a good choice. Intimidate makes you scary. Survival makes you a forager/hunter/tracker/meteorologist.

Feats: Half-Orc is a really good choice for race, so this is looking at level 4 options. If you go Variant Human instead, pick one of these up at level 1.
Great Weapon Master is the king of melee damage, particularly when combined with reckless attack. If your carnage quotient isn't high enough for your liking, pick this up first.
Sentinel makes you a little stickier, and gives you a reaction attack when your adjacent buddies come under fire. If you aren't getting enough abuse, this helps you punish the ones that try to ignore you.

From there it's strategy. Reckless Attack both makes you better at hitting (because you get Advantage), as well as making you a tastier target (because anyone meleeing you gets Advantage).

Consider carrying a war hammer and shield as well (it's not like you don't have the carry capacity) for those occasions where you want to be a little tankier. But don't change mid-battle: It takes an action to un/equip a shield.

[LightinDark132]

To add to Evil Anagram's advice, pick GWM feat at 4th level. Having constant advantage from reckless attack works perfectly with the -5/+10 mechanic of the GWM feat. After that, as far as ASIs are concerned, your best options include +2 str, polearm master and sentinel. Personally I would go with polearm master at 8 and sentinel at 12, while hoping for an item that boosts str, but you can max your str first and then add more feats. Just pick GWM at 4th level, and whatever you do after that, you cant go wrong.

Human variant is not a bad choice for a barbarian either. Doesnt get the halforc's features, but being one feat ahead is not a small deal.

As I just mentioned to Evil in my previous post, I don't feel like the half-orc traits are all that great. I could be horribly mistaken but human variant just seems so much better.

Warforged doesn't seem bad either (provided it was allowed) simply for the extra AC. I'd lose a bit of extra poke but doesn't seem bad.

[LightinDark132]

You want all the physical stats. Dex 14 is sufficient, unless you really want to be a naked tank (but boost that Con first!). If you need to bump a 4th stat for some reason, Wisdom is really useful (perception, resisting mind effects)

Skills: Grab Athletics. Sometimes you want to push people around. You have advantage on this when you rage. You mostly want to use this to knock people down for your team-mates, or to push someone into a better position for your archers and casters (away from them, into an area of effect, etc.). Stealth makes you a good back-up man for your scouts... so long as you aren't covered in clanging metal. Your other skills will mostly be about making you suck less at specific mental/social stuff. Perception is always a good choice. Intimidate makes you scary. Survival makes you a forager/hunter/tracker/meteorologist.

Feats: Half-Orc is a really good choice for race, so this is looking at level 4 options. If you go Variant Human instead, pick one of these up at level 1.
Great Weapon Master is the king of melee damage, particularly when combined with reckless attack. If your carnage quotient isn't high enough for your liking, pick this up first.
Sentinel makes you a little stickier, and gives you a reaction attack when your adjacent buddies come under fire. If you aren't getting enough abuse, this helps you punish the ones that try to ignore you.

From there it's strategy. Reckless Attack both makes you better at hitting (because you get Advantage), as well as making you a tastier target (because anyone meleeing you gets Advantage).

Consider carrying a war hammer and shield as well (it's not like you don't have the carry capacity) for those occasions where you want to be a little tankier. But don't change mid-battle: It takes an action to un/equip a shield.

Being a naked barb doesn't seem all that appealing (Other than the fact I could literally tank in a Tuxedo) but what armor should I wear? Breastplate is pricey and only +1 more ac than 2dex/3con and half-plate gives disadvantage.

As for half-orc. Are the racials really that great? Seems good in theory but lack-luster in pratice.
For feats, great weapon master looks great when combined with Reckless Attack. However, I'm a bit scared of having advantage to being hit. I feel like it wouldn't be so bad with Lucky, to mitigate those annoying Crits but that'd take up a feat slot.

[SharkForce]

variant human is much better at level 1. half-orc is a bit better at level 20. somewhere in between, they will become roughly equal in value.

basically, human doesn't really make you better at anything in the long run unless you needed 6 feats for your build to work (you shouldn't). but once you have all the feats you really want, human doesn't really do much of anything for you at all.

the DPR increase of more crit damage is not huge, but it is there. eventually, it will become more valuable than the variant human feat, if only because the variant human feat eventually stops doing anything particularly great for you at all.

since you will presumably be spending more time at low levels than high levels, and human is rather superior until you've got probably two feats as a non-human, i would agree with your thinking that the "optimized" choice for you is likely to be human. but either can work.

edit: remember you can rage to take half damage. people will be more likely to hit you, but they'll still only deal half damage, and even crits won't generally increase it by a huge amount since only the dice are doubled; a monster with 2d6+9 damage or something like that will only get an extra 2d6 on a crit, the +9 stays the same.

also remember that because you have advantage, you have close to double the regular chance of critting. so crit damage is indeed a bit more important for a barbarian than might first appear.

that said, lucky is just a good feat in general, so feel free to take it :)

[LightinDark132]

variant human is much better at level 1. half-orc is a bit better at level 20. somewhere in between, they will become roughly equal in value.

basically, human doesn't really make you better at anything in the long run unless you needed 6 feats for your build to work (you shouldn't). but once you have all the feats you really want, human doesn't really do much of anything for you at all.

the DPR increase of more crit damage is not huge, but it is there. eventually, it will become more valuable than the variant human feat, if only because the variant human feat eventually stops doing anything particularly great for you at all.

since you will presumably be spending more time at low levels than high levels, and human is rather superior until you've got probably two feats as a non-human, i would agree with your thinking that the "optimized" choice for you is likely to be human. but either can work.

A feat (Even an extra, un-needed one) still seems more valuable than an unprediciable extra 1d12. Then again I haven't played much high level stuff.

Honestly, I doubt we'll even make it to level 20 and even if we did, we wouldn't likely continue afterwards. However, that's just my experience/assumptions as well.

[Corran]

As I just mentioned to Evil in my previous post, I don't feel like the half-orc traits are all that great. I could be horribly mistaken but human variant just seems so much better.

Warforged doesn't seem bad either (provided it was allowed) simply for the extra AC. I'd lose a bit of extra poke but doesn't seem bad.
The practical difference between human and halforc for your build, is this:
With human you gain a feat.
With halforc you get +2 wis, darkvision, relentless endurance and savage attacks.
Humans start being better, halforcs start closing in once you start getting the important feats, and end better in late game.

Warforge is worse than halforc and human. +1 AC is almost worthless to you. Being attacked with advantage by anyone ensures that. AC is not your defense, damage resistance and killing fast is. +1 AC will spare you from one attack every 20 or so attacks. Practical benefit is approximatelly zero.

Mountain dwarf is not a bad race, but imo it falls a little behind human and halforc.

ps: Dont discount the halforc's traits (talking about relentless endurance and savage attacks). As far as racial abilities go, they are pretty solid for a barbarian.

[Joe the Rat]

Lucky is an omni-feat. Anyone can benefit from it.

The bennies for the Half-Orc come in the ability to not fall down once a day (that gives you another round to work on hurting things and being hit - fallen tanks don' tank well), and the extra die on crits (which does stack with the barbarian feature). The RA advantage nearly doubles your crit rate, so this should come up about 1 per 10 attacks.

When you look at shield dwarf, all you are getting is an extra stat point, 5 feet less movement, an intimate knowledge of rocks, and the ability to make your own beer. Everything else is redundant to your class. But rocking an 18/14/18 by 4 is a pretty cool deal.

If you can get the EEPG, Goliaths are a solid Barb option as well. Being able to shrug off damage 1/rest is pretty handy (I'd say more flexible than the half-orc trick). Goliath Bear Totem = Carry Everything.

...and ninjad by a shark. and everyone else.

[LightinDark132]

The practical difference between human and halforc for your build, is this:
With human you gain a feat.
With halforc you get +2 wis, darkvision, relentless endurance and savage attacks.
Humans start being better, halforcs start closing in once you start getting the important feats, and end better in late game.

Warforge is worse than halforc and human. +1 AC is almost worthless to you. Being attacked with advantage by anyone ensures that. AC is not your defense, damage resistance and killing fast is. +1 AC will spare you from one attack every 20 or so attacks. Practical benefit is approximatelly zero.

Mountain dwarf is not a bad race, but imo it falls a little behind human and halforc.

ps: Dont discount the halforc's traits (talking about relentless endurance and savage attacks). As far as racial abilities go, they are pretty solid for a barbarian.

Hrm, I'm starting to see your argument for half orcs. Even at lower levels they're looking more appealing. I don't suppose you could give me a basic run down of say, a level 10+ barbarian? Just to give me a general idea of what its like at the mid-ranged mark.

[LightinDark132]

Lucky is an omni-feat. Anyone can benefit from it.

The bennies for the Half-Orc come in the ability to not fall down once a day (that gives you another round to work on hurting things and being hit - fallen tanks don' tank well), and the extra die on crits (which does stack with the barbarian feature). The RA advantage nearly doubles your crit rate, so this should come up about 1 per 10 attacks.

When you look at shield dwarf, all you are getting is an extra stat point, 5 feet less movement, an intimate knowledge of rocks, and the ability to make your own beer. Everything else is redundant to your class. But rocking an 18/14/18 by 4 is a pretty cool deal.

If you can get the EEPG, Goliaths are a solid Barb option as well. Being able to shrug off damage 1/rest is pretty handy (I'd say more flexible than the half-orc trick). Goliath Bear Totem = Carry Everything.

...and ninjad by a shark. and everyone else.

Goliaths look fairly bad ass, simply for roleplay purposes. However, after corrans compelling argument, I feel like they would simply be a step behind half-orc/human, though not a dramatic gap.

[SharkForce]

A feat (Even an extra, un-needed one) still seems more valuable than an unprediciable extra 1d12. Then again I haven't played much high level stuff.

Honestly, I doubt we'll even make it to level 20 and even if we did, we wouldn't likely continue afterwards. However, that's just my experience/assumptions as well.

doesn't have to get to level 20.

basically, you probably want somewhere between 2 and 3 feats. (GWM, PM, and maybe a third of your choice; so far, sounding like it will be lucky). once you've got those feats, variant human stops doing anything for you at all more or less. at that point, half-orc is at least giving you *something* extra.

variant human is a perfectly reasonable choice. it gives you those feats earlier, and for the first 7 to 11 levels you'll probably be better off with variant human. but eventually, half-orc pulls ahead.

[charlesk]

I've just started playing a paladin/barb/druid combo, which while difficult to set up, has similar goals to yours. Raging in wild form to last longer before dropping, spell support, and smites on crits for damage.

Only tried it for one small fight so far but it has promise. Requires a high point buy to set up properly.

[Corran]

Hrm, I'm starting to see your argument for half orcs. Even at lower levels they're looking more appealing. I don't suppose you could give me a basic run down of say, a level 10+ barbarian? Just to give me a general idea of what its like at the mid-ranged mark.
To help you pick between human or halforc, I'll say this:

Think of who your character is. Think of how you will roleplay him. Think of an image. Does halforc suit that image best? If yes, choose halfroc. Similarly, does human match that picture better in your opinion? Pick human.

That said, if you want to examine this a different angle, think of how you want your barbarian to fight?
Do you want a greatsword/greataxe (thus no polearm master feat)? Pick halforc.
Do you want a polearm? Pick human, so that you can have your polearm at level 4 (first feat is GWM always). Then again, you can always reflavour your polearm to a greataxe/greatsword, and reflavour the butt end attack as attacking with the hilt of your greataxe/greatsword, or even as it being a punch, or a kick, or a headbutt, or even a bite (you are a raging barbarian afterall).

From a pure mechanical approach, you need to consider which feats you will take. This will determine if human or halforc is better for you. I explain. Given that GWM will be your first feat no matter what, if you plan on taking both polearm master and sentinel, pick human. If you dont plan on taking any of these two feats (polearm master, sentinel), pick halforc. If you plan on taking only polearm master, but not sentinel (or the opposite), that's a tough one, I would probably say halforc just because they end up slightly better (though human is slightly better at earlier levels). I prefer the long term benefit, but that is just me. Hope that helps.

Since your group was asking you to tank, I think you should go with human. Take GWM at 1st level, polearm master at 4th, sentinel at 8th, and then use your remaining ASIs to boost str to 20 and take tough, in whichever order you see fit (by that time, you will have a much better understanding as to what you need, than what I can guess right now, as I am just theorycrafting).

ps: Something about your feats. Lucky is indeed a good feat, but so is tough, especially for a bearbarian.

EDIT: There is some redundancy between GWM and polearm master (regarding your bonus action), though this is not an issue. However, there is some potential redundancy between polearm master and sentinel (regarding your reaction). If you have a melee buddy that fights besides you, avoid polearm master and take sentinel. If this is the case, take sentinel right after GWM, and if your melee buddy is particularly frail, consider human just to be able to pick sentinel at level 4. Make sure beforehand that this ally of yours will stay next to you most of the time.

[Addaran]

doesn't have to get to level 20.

basically, you probably want somewhere between 2 and 3 feats. (GWM, PM, and maybe a third of your choice; so far, sounding like it will be lucky). once you've got those feats, variant human stops doing anything for you at all more or less. at that point, half-orc is at least giving you *something* extra.

variant human is a perfectly reasonable choice. it gives you those feats earlier, and for the first 7 to 11 levels you'll probably be better off with variant human. but eventually, half-orc pulls ahead.

Don't forget that feats are also ASI. The OP seems to be using point-buy, so he'll also want to max his str and probably con. If both the vhuman and the half-orc wants the same feats, the vhuman will have maxed his str 4 levels earlier. For those level, it's between +1d12 every 10 attacks and relentless endurance or +1 damage every attack as well as +1 hit chance for all. Once they are both maxed in str, then it's maxed con earlier for the vhuman or some usefull feat like lucky.

[SharkForce]

Don't forget that feats are also ASI. The OP seems to be using point-buy, so he'll also want to max his str and probably con. If both the vhuman and the half-orc wants the same feats, the vhuman will have maxed his str 4 levels earlier. For those level, it's between +1d12 every 10 attacks and relentless endurance or +1 damage every attack as well as +1 hit chance for all. Once they are both maxed in str, then it's maxed con earlier for the vhuman or some usefull feat like lucky.

sure, but for a melee character, +1 to hit and damage is not nearly as big of a deal as getting feats. which is why it irritates me that feats are "optional", because if we assume that weapon-users are balanced without feats than they are overpowered with feats (which seems rather unlikely to me), or if they're balanced with feats than they are underpowered without them.

[Addaran]

sure, but for a melee character, +1 to hit and damage is not nearly as big of a deal as getting feats. which is why it irritates me that feats are "optional", because if we assume that weapon-users are balanced without feats than they are overpowered with feats (which seems rather unlikely to me), or if they're balanced with feats than they are underpowered without them.

Of course feats are awesome, and in a lot of cases, it's better then just +1hit/dam. I meant for your "after you get the 2-3 feats you want" that the vhuman would fall behind half-orc. He does get his feats faster and after that, stats boost.

edit: Lacks of feats seems to put all the fighting styles more or less equals (dex-melee, board and shield ,twin weapon for non-fighter,etc) Compared to when sharpshooter, PAM or GWM makes the other styles bad. But yeah, it's weird that they are optional.

[EvilAnagram]

Snip

Others have commented on some of your points, but I want to be clear on the Half-Orc features.

Savage Attacker will occasionally turn what would have been a wounded enemy into a dead enemy, especially because it stacks with other Barbie bonuses. That's why people like it. If you like that idea, great. If not, oh well.

Relentless Endurance, however, is extremely useful to a Barbarian. Even if you're not sticking with naked AC, Bearbarian tanking comes more from your ability to ignore damage than avoid it. The enemy's best hits, the ones that shave a lot of HP off the party, are less effective when they target a Bear totem Barbarian. You're essentially dealing in action denial by negating your enemy's damage. Relentless Endurance takes this theme and runs with it by making lethal blows not matter much. It gives you a round to heal or attack as you see fit, which means that not only are you conserving your party's actions by not forcing them to deal with your being comatose, but you're also negating enemy turns by ignoring their damage output. And if my players are any indication, you'll get some solid use out of this.

[MaxWilson]

I love Warbearians. Armor of Agathys V + Bear Rage = awesome. It's very MAD though.

[DracoKnight]

I haven't read through every other suggestion in this thread, so I don't know if anyone else suggested this yet, but here it is:

Dragonborn Paladain, Oath of Vengeance.

Using the Standard Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and the Dragonborn's +2 Strength and +1 Charisma, you can start out with the following stats at level 1:

HP 12
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 15
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 14

For equipment, grab a set of scale mail and a shield, so you'll start with an AC of 17. Then grab either the Defense or the Dueling Fighting Style. Defense will five you AC 18, and Duelist will give you +2 to damage. For your weapon, grab a battleaxe/longsword/warhammer. Now *contrary* to what everyone is saying, I would grab Magic Initiate at 4th level. Pick the Warlock spell list. From that list, grab green-flame blade and booming blade for your cantrips, and hellish rebuke for your 1st-level spell. Alternatively, you could grab eldritch blast instead of green-flame blade, if you want to do decent ranged damage, but green-flame blade has the awesome benefit of stacking with Divine Smite for an above average amount of DPR. At 8th level, grab Resilient (CON) and at 12th Warcaster (so you can booming blade as an AoO). After that bump STR to 20.

Depending on how generous your DM is with gold, you might be able to get plate armor as early as level 5, but even if you don't 17 AC isn't bad. And you can get half-plate earlier to calculate your AC as 15 + DEX (max 2) + Shield (2), or 18, which is the same as plate. That should hold you until higher levels when you get enough gold to have plate and rock a 20 AC.

Lastly, ask your DM two things:

1) can you cast hellish rebuke using your Paladin resources, as if Magic Initiate had added it to your spell list?
2) can you use the Spell Point Variant?

If the answer is yes to both of those, you're going to see a significant boost in power.

[HoarsHalberd]

A feat (Even an extra, un-needed one) still seems more valuable than an unprediciable extra 1d12. Then again I haven't played much high level stuff.

Honestly, I doubt we'll even make it to level 20 and even if we did, we wouldn't likely continue afterwards. However, that's just my experience/assumptions as well.

Comparing races the half-orc is more powerful for champions and barbarians. If there was a feat that came with +1 str, darkvision, +1 crit die and relentless endurance I'd take it in an instant. (Though this may be partly because my DM liked underground sessions.) Now V-Humans are flavourful and powerful for barbarians in general (and certainly help with the totem PM builds) they aren't OP for this role like many have intimated.

[Corran]

Comparing races the half-orc is more powerful for champions and barbarians. If there was a feat that came with +1 str, darkvision, +1 crit die and relentless endurance I'd take it in an instant. (Though this may be partly because my DM liked underground sessions.) Now V-Humans are flavourful and powerful for barbarians in general (and certainly help with the totem PM builds) they aren't OP for this role like many have intimated.
If lack of darkvision is going to be an issue, then the choice is clear, you pick halforc. That said, lack of darkvision is a problem that wont trouble a barbarian in most cases. And your party will have ways to go about it. So unless for some very specific reason darkvision is extremelly important (in which case you picj halforc as I said), you can take it off the sclales. As far as the additional +1 str, it is not the case when going with point buy. That extra +1 str translates in the most optimal scenario to a +2 wis.

So the comparsion essentially becomes, faster feat/ASI progression that results in one extra feat at 19 level, or +2 wis, relentless endurance and savage attacks (weapon of choice affects the value of this feature, greataxes profit the most, but greatswords and mauls have better damage, you can calculate the exact benefit in each case, but it is a long process and the difference will be minimal)?