One of my players is a lawful good succubus... still has chaotic and evil subtypes...

[anthropomorphic]

My question is.... how does smite evil work against them? Long story short, the back story is that she found a deck of many things and was summarily ****ed by the results. Alignment changed to Lawful good and they got shifted to the material plane, but the subtypes chaotic and evil don'the change... does smite evil still work on them and if so is it any different?

Please send halp

[khadgar567]

My question is.... how does smite evil work against them? Long story short, the back story is that she found a deck of many things and was summarily ****ed by the results. Alignment changed to Lawful good and they got shifted to the material plane, but the subtypes chaotic and evil don'the change... does smite evil still work on them and if so is it any different?

Please send halp

calling loyal paladin

red fell red fell red fell

[MisterKaws]

Look at the alignment subtypes at MM1, they count as Chaotic Evil for ANYTHING, and can't even fulfill pre-requisites that require being Lawful Good. In short, the world hates her for not being what she's supposed to be, so she's chaotic evil, no 'buts' allowed.

[Segev]

They currently count as every alignment type (for mechanical detection and interaction purposes) except "neutral." They take damage from things that hurt any alignment. They are immune to things that call out a particular alignment for immunity.

Where these conflict, I'd read the rules closely to see if the "immunity" is really just a full-coverage note that enumerates that the un-targeted alignment is, indeed, unaffected (rather than a specific, if-you-are-this-alignment-you-are-protected). e.g., they take damage from dictum, holy word, blasphemy, and word of chaos, because the "immunity" to those is really just not being a target of them.

i.e., it stinks to have alignment tags that conflict with your real alignment. It also means you're functionally insane, since you're effectively MADE of the opposite of what you try to be.

[Flickerdart]

Having an alignment subtype counts you as that alignment for the purposes of effects and prerequisites. So the succubus would be damaged by Smite Evil (because she is [Evil]) but also Smite Good (because she is Good). Furthermore, she could qualify for Prestige Classes that require her to be Good or Evil or Lawful or Chaotic, but she cannot qualify for any classes that require her to be non-Good or non-Evil or non-Lawful or non-Chaotic.

[Ruethgar]

Take Shape Soulmeld:Incarnate Avatar! As long as you don't actually take Incarnate levels you don't need to pick one alignment and even if you do, you would technically still qualify for Chaos and Evil.

Oh also you can take barbarian and monk.

[Fouredged Sword]

You have to read the wording of the abilities carefully. She qualifies as Good and Lawful because she is Lawful Good. She also qualifies as Evil and Chaotic because she has the Evil and Chaotic subtypes.

You have both positive and negative statements in triggers for various abilities. Some abilities, like smite evil, check for the positive status of the Evil trait. She triggers this.

Some other abilities check for the absence of a trait. Holy word, for example, checks for non-good creatures. As the succubus is a good creature she would be immune to the effect.

[Red Fel]

red fell red fell red fell

http://i.imgur.com/wXTz9yb.gif

S'up?


My question is.... how does smite evil work against them? Long story short, the back story is that she found a deck of many things and was summarily ****ed by the results. Alignment changed to Lawful good and they got shifted to the material plane, but the subtypes chaotic and evil don'the change... does smite evil still work on them and if so is it any different?

Please send halp

Pretty much what everyone has said.

The idea of an LG Succubus is not a new thing (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). As others have mentioned, she counts as her alignments (Lawful and Good) and as her subtypes (Chaotic and Evil) for anything that might trigger them, good or bad. The fact that she is Good does not protect her from Smite Evil; the fact that she has the Chaotic subtype would not protect her from Smite Law.

And it also means, as Segev points out, that you are basically making a conscious decision to deny the fundamental essence of which you are composed, as a creature of impulse and cruelty attempts to be self-regulated and benevolent.

Basically, for any effect, read the specific language. If it says "Evil creatures take damage," take damage. If it says "Lawful creatures are immune," she is immune. And where the two conflict, pick the one that most makes sense - where the ability is offensive, it triggers.

[anthropomorphic]

Ok, so another little bit. There are two paladins in the party... do they lose their powers for associating with her or nor?

[Flickerdart]

Ok, so another little bit. There are two paladins in the party... do they lose their powers for associating with her or nor?
No, they do not, for two reasons.

1) Association with evil or morally offensive characters is not part of the Code, but the separate Associates paragraph. Paladins will never fall for associating with anybody - otherwise, how would they redeem evildoers?
2) Even if you do consider association to be part of the Code, paladins only fall for gross violations of it (or evil deeds, but hanging out isn't evil). Travelling with a Lawful Good creature who just happens to be a Succubus is by no means a gross violation.

[ryu]

Ok, so another little bit. There are two paladins in the party... do they lose their powers for associating with her or nor?

It does say knowingly? Do the characters know she still counts evil for stuffs?

[Red Fel]

Ok, so another little bit. There are two paladins in the party... do they lose their powers for associating with her or nor?

Technically, by RAW? She's Evil, so yes.

That said, that particular rule is profoundly stupid, and I wouldn't enforce it generally, let alone in this case, where she's also LG.

So no. Don't do this to your characters. Bad enough you brought a Deck of Many Things into this mess, don't kick the character out of the party on top of everything else.

As an aside, how exactly did the Paladins work with a Succubus in the first place?

[Flickerdart]

Technically, by RAW? She's Evil, so yes.
Looks like someone needs to review the Code again. How un-lawful of you. :smallamused:

[nedz]

Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters,

So the Paladins may, but will never, ...

Whilst it might be ironic to make the Paladins fall, and for them to then become Black Guards, after associating with the LG Succubus you probably shouldn't do this.

Is this a dysfunction ?

Quite possibly, if so you are now forced to make a house-rule - which is probably for the best.

[Geddy2112]

Technically, by RAW? She's Evil, so yes.

That said, that particular rule is profoundly stupid, and I wouldn't enforce it generally, let alone in this case, where she's also LG.

So no. Don't do this to your characters. Bad enough you brought a Deck of Many Things into this mess, don't kick the character out of the party on top of everything else.

As an aside, how exactly did the Paladins work with a Succubus in the first place?

Yeah, what exactly is going on? Two paladins and a CE succubus were just hanging out one day, a deck of many things appeared, now the succubus is LG.

I mean, just cause the deck changed her alignment, does not mean she could not go back. In times of crisis, when the dark evil monster is tempted by the light, sometimes you just need to pull an incredibly evil act of betrayal, like this one https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yJFQRTKBCVk/maxresdefault.jpg and you should get rid of that stupid LG some stupid card assigned you. It is not like the change is permanent. If no deep dark betrayal is available, a few incidents at some orphanages later should do the trick.

[anthropomorphic]

Well, the succubus was turned LG PRE ADVENTURE, as in it is backs story the player came up with. The paladins as far as I know will be unaware of her actual status as a demon let alone her alignment

[Geddy2112]

Well, the succubus was turned LG PRE ADVENTURE, as in it is backs story the player came up with. The paladins as far as I know will be unaware of her actual status as a demon let alone her alignment

Well, if she wants to be LG and try to wipe the evil away, its basically going to take serious magic or a deity. She is going to detect as evil, because she is an evil outsider. The paladins will know the minute they use detect evil that she is evil-she can disguise herself, but things can pierce that too.

Undetectable alignment is a good spell for her to know, or have on a wand. Or a ring of mind shielding-her good actions will also generally throw suspicion but she will still detect as evil without some ability to hide it. Likewise, true seeing and similar spells will show her true form.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, the succubus was turned LG PRE ADVENTURE, as in it is backs story the player came up with. The paladins as far as I know will be unaware of her actual status as a demon let alone her alignment

Odd, she would light up like a Christmas tree to detect evil.

[Esprit15]

Well, if she wants to be LG and try to wipe the evil away, its basically going to take serious magic or a deity. She is going to detect as evil, because she is an evil outsider. The paladins will know the minute they use detect evil that she is evil-she can disguise herself, but things can pierce that too.

Undetectable alignment is a good spell for her to know, or have on a wand. Or a ring of mind shielding-her good actions will also generally throw suspicion but she will still detect as evil without some ability to hide it. Likewise, true seeing and similar spells will show her true form.

That could actually make for some interesting RP. "She detects as being Evil as the Abyss!" "Maybe. She seems like she may be redeemable though." *later, after several adventures* "She still detects as a massive beacon of Evil." "Weird. She's the most paladin-like Evil person I've ever seen." If she's going as disguised for a while, it would make the reveal all the more interesting to see play out.

[Telonius]

If she has some way of concealing the alignment, that would probably be best. You could take your pick among several methods of that, from spells to items. Otherwise, you're down to trying to convince them that your story is true. Asking them to have a Cleric Detect Good on you (it is a first-level spell) might help in that.

[DarkSonic1337]

away from book right now but savage species has rituals for acquiring or removing subtypes, including alignment subtypes. I remember it being particularly dangerous for outsiders with the alignment subtype though.

[nedz]

If she has some way of concealing the alignment, that would probably be best. You could take your pick among several methods of that, from spells to items. Otherwise, you're down to trying to convince them that your story is true. Asking them to have a Cleric Detect Good on you (it is a first-level spell) might help in that.

Except that Detect Evil will reveal a Strong Aura, whilst Detect Good may only reveal a Faint one - depending upon her class.

[Fouredged Sword]

Except that Detect Evil will reveal a Strong Aura, whilst Detect Good may only reveal a Faint one - depending upon her class.

She is a paladin. The aura's will be the same strength.

[nedz]

She is a paladin. The aura's will be the same strength.

Only at Paladin 5, at which point her Evil aura will be Overwhelming because 11 HD. Yes, taking levels of Paladin does make her more [Evil] due to her being an [Evil] Outsider.

[legomaster00156]

Only at Paladin 5, at which point her Evil aura will be Overwhelming because 11 HD. Yes, taking levels of Paladin does make her more [Evil] due to her being an [Evil] Outsider.
Whee, RAW! :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

Only at Paladin 5, at which point her Evil aura will be Overwhelming because 11 HD. Yes, taking levels of Paladin does make her more [Evil] due to her being an [Evil] Outsider.

To be fair though any aura of good showing up at all should immediately strange for a known demon considering most forms of hiding these things just make it harder to tell anything at all rather than giving false information.

[Fouredged Sword]

I once had an evil character walk around with non-detection and a nice set of robes he kept enchanted with Magic Aura to give off a good aura. It expressly fools detect spells. Detect spells are not very location accurate, you just get strength and square.

[SangoProduction]

My question is.... how does smite evil work against them? Long story short, the back story is that she found a deck of many things and was summarily ****ed by the results. Alignment changed to Lawful good and they got shifted to the material plane, but the subtypes chaotic and evil don'the change... does smite evil still work on them and if so is it any different?

Please send halp

They are always treated as the alignment of their subtype.

[KillianHawkeye]

I once had an evil character walk around with non-detection and a nice set of robes he kept enchanted with Magic Aura to give off a good aura. It expressly fools detect spells. Detect spells are not very location accurate, you just get strength and square.

Damn, that's a great idea! I'm gonna have to steal that.

[JBPuffin]

The best solutions have been mentioned, except to one particular issue - what happens to her Paladin companions? See, she's still good - Lawful Good, even - and penalizing her allies for associating with a hero is rather unfair to all of them.

[DarkSoul]

Use the Ritual of Alignment from page 148 of Savage Species. Dock 56k gold from the character's wealth if you feel you need to; same goes for the xp cost. Make the DC10 Will save to change one subtype to another that matches some part of her alignment. [Evil] becomes [Good]. No more conflicts.

[NeoPhoenix0]

You could Tell her to get a lead lined cloak to block all detect and scrying based Spells as well as some radiation. It is cheaper an more reliable than nondetection magic.