Powering up a dragon - a semi-optimisation challenge

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

So there is a thread floating around about a group of dragonhunters bursting in on the PCs meeting with the King/Ancient Green Dragon. And the replies got me thinking. Everyone was saying "Your dragonhunters need dispelling magic".

I realized that my (oddly all over the place) group had never dealt with that aspect of dragonhood. Dragons we fought were little better than animals, and only ever used their natural weapons and breath. To be fair, its rare for our group to rise above level 12, as each year we start at 1 again. In addition, I have yet to play a sorc.

So here is the question. Just what WOULD a dragon be carrying around with them at all times? What do players often encounter, and at what levels? Whats your optimum "this dragon is here for the plot, you cant kill it... period." build for a dragon that is buffed up?

I thought I would structure this to make it easy.

Any 3.5 book, but the dragons cant take classes and you must specify where you get your spells from (book abbreviations are fine).

Pick one or more of the following.

A dragon appropriate for a party of 4 level 5 PCs.
A dragon appropriate for a party of 4 level 10 PCs.
A dragon appropriate for a party of 4 level 15 PCs.
A comparison between a Chromatic and a Metallic dragon of any but equivalent level.
An unusual dragon type suitable for a boss battle with a twist (a spirit dragon for example).

Knock yourselves out.

[Flickerdart]

Any 3.5 book, but the dragons cant take classes and you must specify where you get your spells from (book abbreviations are fine). Im also iffy on feats. I dont like the sound of a dragon taking feats but if yours always do, then fine.
You realize that all creatures that aren't mindless get feats, right? Even animals get feats. Hell, there's even a whole feats section in the True Dragons entry that reads:


All dragons have one feat, plus additional feats based on Hit Dice just like any other creature. Dragons favor Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (claw or bite), Wingover, and any metamagic feat that is available and useful to sorcerers.

[Albions_Angel]

Well there you go. See, lots of stuff my group just never did so I never learned. Ill edit top post :)

I guess you could say "Feats back on the menu, boys!"

[MisterKaws]

For level 15 characters, a Very Young Loredrake(Dragons of Eberron) Prismatic Dragon(Epic Level Handbook) is considered a challenging fight(CR 16, appropriate for a mini-miniboss), although I think it would obliterate most non-tier 1 builds into oblivion, especially if it uses Wings of Cover(Races of the Dragon) and the other Dragonblood-only spells.

[JyP]

I did a 2 headed dragon build recently for one BBEG challenge : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20210148&postcount=72

this one has cleric spells, from SRD and Frostburn - but it is not built around spellcasting, more about breath weapons.

[Draconium]

I have a question - is there any reason the dragon can't take classes? I mean, the Draconomicon actually provides prestige classes meant for true dragons, and they are very intelligent creatures - dipping a level or two to qualify for these classes shouldn't be out of the question, IMO.

[Albions_Angel]

Because it seems weird. Sure, they could take them in human form, but the idea of a dragon monk, in DRAGON FORM, just doesnt make sense. Or Wiz for that matter. How do you read a spell book when you have yard long claws?

If there are dragon based prestige classes, as in the prereq is "Dragon", sure, because I expect those are things that advance, well, the dragon-ness of a dragon. But a dragon druid, or a dragon ranger, or a dragon barbarian, it just seems like its pointless. It could, after all, be advancing dragon instead...

[Flickerdart]

Because it seems weird. Sure, they could take them in human form, but the idea of a dragon monk, in DRAGON FORM, just doesnt make sense.
Really? You're concerned about making sense in a fantasy game? Please. Dragons taking class levels is no weirder than treants or ghosts or awakened sharks taking class levels.

[J-H]

Dragon barbarian
Bloodscale Rager? I may have the name wrong.


Scintillating Scales (NA->Touch AC)
Greater Mage Armor (+6 armor AC)
Shield (+4 shield AC)
Ring of Protection (+x deflection AC)
Bracers of Dexterity (AC, initiative, saves)
Large & In Charge feat (take an AOO against the party's charger, knock him back so he doesn't get to connect)
A bunch of Ioun Stones
Metabreath feats (slow, entangle, etc.)
A Dispel or two can bring down a lot of the party's protections. The Dispelling Cord item (MIC) gives +2 on Dispel checks for a low price.
Tactical movement items/spells - anything that gives a short-range teleport for a swift action lets the dragon full-attack the party wizard
Wings of Cover
Summons... elemental gems give a 1-time summon and are shiny treasure pieces in the meantime.
Darkness/widened darkness; the dragon has Blindsense. Do you? :)
The Power Word spells are no-save and target based on HP...thematic for an arcane dragon.
Haste gives the dragon extra movement and a bonus attack.

[Draconium]

Because it seems weird. Sure, they could take them in human form, but the idea of a dragon monk, in DRAGON FORM, just doesnt make sense. Or Wiz for that matter. How do you read a spell book when you have yard long claws?

If there are dragon based prestige classes, as in the prereq is "Dragon", sure, because I expect those are things that advance, well, the dragon-ness of a dragon. But a dragon druid, or a dragon ranger, or a dragon barbarian, it just seems like its pointless. It could, after all, be advancing dragon instead...

Well, some of the dragon prestige classes (which do have being a dragon as a prerequisite) are impossible to get into without any class dips first - for instance, the Bloodscale Fury is effectively the draconic version of the Barbarian, but it has "Must have the ability to rage (or similar ability)" as a prerequisite as well, something that dragons do not possess without class level dips.

There are also several divine conversion classes which transform the dragon's innate Sorcerer spellcasting into Cleric spellcasting. But a prerequisite for them is "able to cast divine spells" - and most dragons (if not all) cannot. Some can cast cleric spells, but it specifically states they cast them as arcane.

Now, I understand that most of them probably wouldn't be available for this challenge, as they would put the CR too high, but it's nice to have options. And a few levels into a class may not hurt anything...

[Fuzzy McCoy]

I would say a dragon taking levels in sorcerer or a mage prestige class isn't out of the question at all - I mean, look here (panel 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) for proof. It makes pretty good sense to boost magic when it's king.

[Albions_Angel]

Really? You're concerned about making sense in a fantasy game? Please. Dragons taking class levels is no weirder than treants or ghosts or awakened sharks taking class levels.

Yeah, you know what, I am. I never said realistic, but this has always been a weak argument. Yeah, I want the world to seem real, for it to make sense. The rules want that too. You are right, its a fantasy game. There are dragons and stuff. Except there wouldnt be. The amount of gods that arnt friends of the dragons VASTLY outways those that are.

After thousands of years wizards have only found those few hundred spells? Pull the other one. The world ended millions of years ago when a wizard accidentally destroyed all matter.

So yeah, I like rules and limits and a twisted sense of realism. I think a dragon kungfu kicking a bard about as sensible as a monk kungfu kicking an ant. And I have issues with some things taking certain classes. An awakened shark for instance. The lack of opposable thumbs and a reliable way to make sound prohibits LITERALLY ALL SPELL CASTING. That thumb thing prevents holding a weapon, which does away with another bunch of classes. Tools too. So you are looking at something that can change shape to grant hands, or something that uses natural attacks. Monk actually works, except it doesnt because why would a shark waste its time learning how to slap things with its tail when it has a mouthful of teeth up front and is already an apex predator (give or take a few magical creatures).

SO yeah, I take issue with dragons taking most classes. Sure, I could probably handle them taking a few specific ones, but then the question becomes why bother? Just be a better dragon is usually the optimum answer.

But thats besides the point. I gave my rules. Im sorry if the playground doesnt like them. No one is FORCED to reply to this post. It can die in the deep recesses of the forum and the only person who will be upset is me.

But dont go around saying "Why are you limiting that, its a fantasy world, nothing is realistic" because the argument just doesnt work, in D&D or video games or story books. Every world has it rules, and most of them are the same ones we have.

[Flickerdart]

The lack of opposable thumbs and a reliable way to make sound prohibits LITERALLY ALL SPELL CASTING.
Surrogate Spellcasting, Pearl of Speech, Gloves of Man, grafts, (Sudden) Silent & Still Spell...

I could go on, but it's pretty clear you have an idea of how All Things Must BeTM and are unwilling to admit that even the game's designers weren't on your side.

[Albions_Angel]

Fine, fine you win. I dont give a damn any more. Lets just call a human "Mr Dragon" and make him a level 20 wizard. Now he is the most powerful thing in the game. End of thread. Topic totally derailed. No point in continuing. I give up.

Out of interest, why DID you reply to the thread? Why did you even care that I didnt want my dragons without classes? What did it actually matter? Im not talking about having to correct me, fair enough, fine, whatever with that. But when you first posted, it wasnt to say help out, or give advice, it was just to say "You are wrong, get your realism out of, not my game, but yours."

Some mod close the thread. There is 0 chance of it ever becoming what I asked for. Goodnight Vienna.

[LTwerewolf]

Any 3.5 book, but the dragons cant take classes

Deal breaker. Akin to saying "optimize spellcasting but you're not allowed to use psionics, arcane, divine, or spheres of power casting, and martial adepts aren't casters. If you want people to optimize encounters, in order to not have exactly the same thing come up you need to let people branch out. Just because you think a dragon taking a class level is weird doesn't mean they shouldn't. How are they different from any other race? Just like other races with abilities, classes can augment certain things and make them better at things. It's incredibly limiting to remove one of the biggest aspects of the game.

Also: the only person that ever mentioned a wizard (other then the dragon facing one) was you, so I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the dragon being a wizard. You don't like high level wizards. Ok, we get it. It's much less limiting to say "please no wizards."

The game expects dragons to take class levels, and is built into the dragon specific (many true dragon specific) prestige classes, as has been mentioned before. Sacred warder of bahamut and unholy ravager of tiamat are examples of the paragons of dragon religion, which both absolutely require levels in a class.


Bloodscale Rager? I may have the name wrong.




Bloodscale Fury, but you were close.

[DarkSonic1337]

Dragon Wizards are totally a thing, there's even a Dragon Psycosis for it called "spell hoarding" (a very nice name to emphasize the dragon's nature actually). It turns their Sorcerer casting into Wizard casting and they keep their spellbook as tattoos on their scales and can activate them like scrolls as an emergency measure

Beyond that there's also the Wyrm of War sovereign archtype (Dragons of Eberron) that switches the spellcasting for TOME OF BATTLE MANEUVERS!

If you think Dragons don't make sense with certain classes, then maybe you just need to stop thinking of classes as tropes and start thinking of them as sets of abilities. (Or they can be tropes, that's totally fine! But the players don't get to know what classes your creatures have).

A Dragon Monk is a Dragon who anticipates attacks to dodge them with it's years of combat experience (wis to AC), is particularly apt at attacking with it's less than sharp appendages (unarmed strikes can be things like headbutts or whatever. Hell they can be tail attacks and wing slams. Just don't use their damages), he's a little faster than most Dragons ect. He has an understanding of how to infuse his strikes with magic to disrupt his opponents (stunning fist), ect. All of which he learned through reading ancient scriptures.

A Dragon Barbarian...is just a dragon who learned to harness the power of rage and adrenaline and created a mental "switch" for it. Pretty simple really.

A Dragon paladin...well Dragons already fit into different alignments so a gold dragon who's a little more active in the destroying evil agenda.

Dragon Fighter...sure it's a little odd to imagine a dragon wielding a greatsword in it's hands, but what about attached to its tail? Put spikes on its wings? Wield armor spikes too!



You don't have to strain realism to give class levels to non-humanoid creatures. You can instead divorce fluff from abilities. Or you can just give your dragon levels of sorcerer because...they cast as sorcerers.

[ace rooster]

SO yeah, I take issue with dragons taking most classes. Sure, I could probably handle them taking a few specific ones, but then the question becomes why bother? Just be a better dragon is usually the optimum answer.


Dragon is a great core, but does not have all the tools you might want even with spellcasting. 2 levels of barbarian can pick up armour proficiency, rage, uncanny dodge, and pounce (if this is in), which is probably better than a couple more HD. A single level of rogue gives 1d6 sneak attack, which is actually quite big for a medium dragon with 5 attacks around 6 damage each, as well as hide as a class skill.

A lot of the time it is not a case of what is optimal, but what makes this dragon unique. Is he a sneaky shadow, who takes pleasure in striking unseen, or a devout servant of Tiamat, with a few levels of cleric. A couple of class levels can go a long way to making a dragon the character you would expect to have int, wis, cha all 14+.

If your dragons don't have any feats, presumably they have never had multi-attack? A +3 to all secondary attacks is a good start.

Optimisation is probably less important than tactics and situation. Good use of fog cloud for example can make the PCs life very difficult. Most important is considering why the dragon is fighting. They are exceptionally brave, but not stupid. They would not enter into a fight without good reason.

[Lightlawbliss]

You want to know how to make a difficult to kill dragon without class levels? Take your pick of the following:

use magic to prevent anyone from attacking you reliably.

fly up high where they can't touch you and drop rocks on the enemy. You will hurt them eventually.

fly away before the enemy can attack and don't let them get in heavy c-bow range.

tell jokes and dance around so much that the players never get around to rolling initiative.