Champion fighter + bearbarian and spell less hunter ranger dips.

[Spacehamster]

12 champ 4 totem 4 spell less ranger hunter, would not this be pretty neat? Get 19-20 crits, THREE styles, battle master maneuvers, horde breaker and rage. Seems like the ultimate rugged wilderness fighter to me. :)

Pretty much lets you be both champion/battlemaster + a smidgen of hunter and barbarian in one neatly rolled burrito!

[N810]

Sounds like a lot of fun. :thog:
I run it as a half-ork, for more crit bonuses.

[Spacehamster]

Sounds like a lot of fun. :thog:
I run it as a half-ork, for more crit bonuses.

Think it will be the path my half Orc lvl 6 champion will take, might throw in 1lvl rogue too as he really does not need 6 ASI's. :)

Styles will prob be archery + the one that lets you climb and swim at move speed in addition to great weapon style that he already has. :)

[GlenSmash!]

It looks cool to me! My favorite 3.5 Character was a Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter and I've been thinking of recreating him for 5e. This looks very much like what I had in mind.

[Lollerabe]

Semi ninja'ed here, was wondering why a 3 lvl ranger dip were so rarely mentioned for barbs (I guess capstone, but I never plan for such high levels) horde breaker is AWESOME for both DPR and action economy. The fighting style is nice, and even with the standard spell casting ranger spells such as goodberries and long strider both are awesome, besides the extra skills and non combat utility from ranger is sweet as well.

Main problem is the 13 wisdom multi class requirement, but I for one always liked at least 12 wis on me barbs - go away mind control ! So not a major issue for me.

Seems like a legit build, in which order would you do it ? I really don't wanna play 12 levels of champion straight.

[Spacehamster]

Semi ninja'ed here, was wondering why a 3 lvl ranger dip were so rarely mentioned for barbs (I guess capstone, but I never plan for such high levels) horde breaker is AWESOME for both DPR and action economy. The fighting style is nice, and even with the standard spell casting ranger spells such as goodberries and long strider both are awesome, besides the extra skills and non combat utility from ranger is sweet as well.

Main problem is the 13 wisdom multi class requirement, but I for one always liked at least 12 wis on me barbs - go away mind control ! So not a major issue for me.

Seems like a legit build, in which order would you do it ? I really don't wanna play 12 levels of champion straight.

6 champ first for 2nd attack, 19-20 crit, style, surge and two feats/asi, then 3 levels spell less ranger for another style + maneuvers, horde breaker and a skill,
followed by 1 level rogue for another skill + expertise, then 4 levels Barb for rage and other goodies. Then finish it off with rest of the levels in champion is how
Im going to play it. :)

[Lollerabe]

Very much agreed on the 6 fighter lvls off the bat, however with those you get imo the 2 crucial asis - GWM and a strength bump. After that 2lvls of barb seems so sweet, rage and most importantly - reckless attack, which would up the DPR by a fair margin. From there you can chose one more barb lvl for totem feature ( not that important in this build) or 3/4 ranger lvls for fightstyle,horde breaker and spells/supp dice. The fourth lvl being solely dependent on your need for another ASI. I might skip rogue entirely but that's neither here nor there

[Spacehamster]

Very much agreed on the 6 fighter lvls off the bat, however with those you get imo the 2 crucial asis - GWM and a strength bump. After that 2lvls of barb seems so sweet, rage and most importantly - reckless attack, which would up the DPR by a fair margin. From there you can chose one more barb lvl for totem feature ( not that important in this build) or 3/4 ranger lvls for fightstyle,horde breaker and spells/supp dice. The fourth lvl being solely dependent on your need for another ASI. I might skip rogue entirely but that's neither here nor there

Reason for going the way I do is that we have enough damage at the front as is so the extra 2 skills and 2 expertise from going ranger and rogue first would benefit the group more then bit higher DPR. :) Otherwise I would take barb first too. :)

[Lollerabe]

Ahh didn't realize we were beyond the magical land that is theorycraftia, makes sense. I'd have a hard time going spell less ranger since a. We don't use anything but the official books (well a few house rules obviously) b. It screams 'I want the awesomeness that is supp dice, yet still get the champion crit' to me :)

But overall this is just a nice build, one could even switch fighter and barb lvls if one prefers the flavor and play of the barb.

[Spacehamster]

Ahh didn't realize we were beyond the magical land that is theorycraftia, makes sense. I'd have a hard time going spell less ranger since a. We don't use anything but the official books (well a few house rules obviously) b. It screams 'I want the awesomeness that is supp dice, yet still get the champion crit' to me :)

But overall this is just a nice build, one could even switch fighter and barb lvls if one prefers the flavor and play of the barb.

True it's kinda optimizingy but also makes a lot of rp sense for my pc that have grown up in the wild frontiers among barbarian tribes and rugged wilderness people but not much magic, so the spell less ranger seems more fitting for an angry half Orc. :)

[Lollerabe]

Fair point :) what also rubs me the wrong way is the progression. Grew up wild and rugged in the frontier? Starting as a barb and then learning more about nature/combat aka ranger/champion makes sense to me. Starting as fighter and then at lvl 6+ starting to embrace your natural feral nature? Less so. Again these are minor points and there are obviously a gazilion ways to make the rp fluff fit either way.

I'd personally be more inclined to go barb 5 then champ 4 then ranger 4 and rest into barb than the 12 champ route, because of a few reasons:

The barb12/4champ/4ranger would give you - +3 rages and +1 rage damg, 10 more movespeed (this is debatable since the 12champ has one more ASI that could be spent on mobile) feral instincts, brutal critical, relentless rage and some cool utility via totem path bonuses at 6th and 10th lvl, and a bit more hp.

However I'd give up - one extra attack (this is the big one) 1 ASI (pretty big but not huge imo) indomitable (hmm it's good but not great) and 1 fightstyle (both builds would properly grab GWF style and defense, so the extra one from champion isn't all that important IMO).

That is my main issue with your build I think, the fact that beyond the 3rd attack the champions progression is just so meh after lvl 3. Where as both the battle master and EK have features that naturally scale with lvls (spell slots/lvls, supp die increase and amount, and maneuver amount).
I just don't think the extra attack and ASI outweights the sweetness of barb progression.

[Spacehamster]

Fair point :) what also rubs me the wrong way is the progression. Grew up wild and rugged in the frontier? Starting as a barb and then learning more about nature/combat aka ranger/champion makes sense to me. Starting as fighter and then at lvl 6+ starting to embrace your natural feral nature? Less so. Again these are minor points and there are obviously a gazilion ways to make the rp fluff fit either way.

I'd personally be more inclined to go barb 5 then champ 4 then ranger 4 and rest into barb than the 12 champ route, because of a few reasons:

The barb12/4champ/4ranger would give you - +3 rages and +1 rage damg, 10 more movespeed (this is debatable since the 12champ has one more ASI that could be spent on mobile) feral instincts, brutal critical, relentless rage and some cool utility via totem path bonuses at 6th and 10th lvl, and a bit more hp.

However I'd give up - one extra attack (this is the big one) 1 ASI (pretty big but not huge imo) indomitable (hmm it's good but not great) and 1 fightstyle (both builds would properly grab GWF style and defense, so the extra one from champion isn't all that important IMO).

That is my main issue with your build I think, the fact that beyond the 3rd attack the champions progression is just so meh after lvl 3. Where as both the battle master and EK have features that naturally scale with lvls (spell slots/lvls, supp die increase and amount, and maneuver amount).
I just don't think the extra attack and ASI outweights the sweetness of barb progression.

Mainly barbarian levels does not fit the party or his background as growing up in a frontier town receiving militia training tho that's why the majority of levels are fighter not barb + we got two full barbarians in the party already. :) will get gwf, armored and the archery styles since due to good rolls he also got an 18 in DEX, so he will be both good at range and in melee. :) It's not meant to be the best build possible just a good build that does what it needs to do. :)

[Lollerabe]

And with 18 dex, archery and a feat to spare on sharpshooter you will be a monster both in melee and at range.

I wasn't trying to flame the build at all :) I have no doubt that it fits your campaign, and as I mentioned it's a very strong build, not just in your setting but overall. I'm just saying if (more like when) I do a similar build it will be the 12 barb version, due to flavor and utility.

I should properly be a bit more clear on when I'm back in theorycraftia and when I'm talking about your char specificly :)

But again kudos on the build, I'd rank it very high on a martial power lvl scale

[Spacehamster]

And with 18 dex, archery and a feat to spare on sharpshooter you will be a monster both in melee and at range.

I wasn't trying to flame the build at all :) I have no doubt that it fits your campaign, and as I mentioned it's a very strong build, not just in your setting but overall. I'm just saying if (more like when) I do a similar build it will be the 12 barb version, due to flavor and utility.

I should properly be a bit more clear on when I'm back in theorycraftia and when I'm talking about your char specificly :)

But again kudos on the build, I'd rank it very high on a martial power lvl scale

Yeah no worries, with 1 lvl rogue I will get 3 more ASI´s and do not really need any more stats
so will take the 2h feat, sharpshooter and the 3rd one Im still on the fence about. :)

[Lollerabe]

Hmm you said you had other melee dudes in the party right? In that case sentinel could add some extra action economy, otherwise you can never go wrong with lucky :) (I'm a fan of mobile for some reason, but that might not be your thing)

[Spacehamster]

Hmm you said you had other melee dudes in the party right? In that case sentinel could add some extra action economy, otherwise you can never go wrong with lucky :) (I'm a fan of mobile for some reason, but that might not be your thing)

He already got polearm mastery and sentinel. :)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

12 champ 4 totem 4 spell less ranger hunter, would not this be pretty neat? Get 19-20 crits, THREE styles, battle master maneuvers, horde breaker and rage. Seems like the ultimate rugged wilderness fighter to me. :)

Pretty much lets you be both champion/battlemaster + a smidgen of hunter and barbarian in one neatly rolled burrito!

Meh, it really wouldn't change that much from going straight fighter or barbarian.

Instead of a few low level options at higher levels you now have a bunch of low level options at higher level.

[Spacehamster]

Meh, it really wouldn't change that much from going straight fighter or barbarian.

Instead of a few low level options at higher levels you now have a bunch of low level options at higher level.

You did not read how great it would be right? :)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You did not read how great it would be right? :)

It's not all that great.

At the end of the day you aren't really that different from a Level 20 Fighter or Barbarian.

Yeah you can do more low level stuff, but it is still low level stuff.

Fighters and Barbarians already do More than enough damage needed, adding more damage into a build is a waste.

I'm all for optimizing but this is just another +let's do damage+ builds. It isn't special or great, you just took a different path to get to the same results.

[Spacehamster]

It's not all that great.

At the end of the day you aren't really that different from a Level 20 Fighter or Barbarian.

Yeah you can do more low level stuff, but it is still low level stuff.

Fighters and Barbarians already do More than enough damage needed, adding more damage into a build is a waste.

I'm all for optimizing but this is just another +let's do damage+ builds. It isn't special or great, you just took a different path to get to the same results.

Okay so compared to a lvl 20 champion you gain: Rage, same amount of attacks when you can trigger horde breaker, superiority die manuevers, 2 more skills, 2 expertise,
1 more style, unarmored defence so you can fight naked, attack with advantage for more crits. All in all greater damage and greater utility the way I see it. But you are
entiteled to your opinion ofc. :)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Okay so compared to a lvl 20 champion you gain: Rage, same amount of attacks when you can trigger horde breaker, superiority die manuevers, 2 more skills, 2 expertise,
1 more style, unarmored defence so you can fight naked, attack with advantage for more crits. All in all greater damage and greater utility the way I see it. But you are
entiteled to your opinion ofc. :)

Again, all you are doing is adding up a bunch of low level stuff and calling it great.

Rage is 2/day at +2 damage (or 3 and +2)? . Advantage in strength checks is nice but Fighter/Strogue has that all the time. A fighter with shield master can get advantage on attacks without giving enemies advantage.

Triggering horde breaker is up to the DM's monster placement, why would you want your level 20 character reliant on anyone but himself? Having free range over your attack is much better than horde breaker.

Superiority Die Maneuvers are low level features that aren't worth the resource. Especially at higher levels. The damage from them is nice but fighter's can do that without MC.

Fighting naked is fluff and just hurts your character overall. To boost strength, dex, and con you have to take away from Int, Wis, and Cha. Extra skills don't mean much of you can't support them.

2 skill with expertise is nice, though there are tons of Rogue/Bard multiclassing that gives you that.

Advantage on attacks is nice, but any old barbarian gets that. A Fighter 18/Barbarian 2 gets that.

I'm not saying you won't be effective at dealing damage, I'm saying that you didn't make anything great. Dealing damage is the baseline, to get a C in being a fighter (or barbarian) you have to be able to +deal damage+. That's what you do, is deal damage.

All of your other features are either stuff that low level fighter/barbs can do or are reliant on a nice DM to pull off (horde breaker).

I'm not trying to be mean but your character is essentially par for the course. Calling it great gives it way too much credit as it is just, essentially, your run of the mill fighter/skill fighter multiclass.

[djreynolds]

I like your build very cool

And as awesome as pole arm master is and sentinel, GWM is what you want. Without this feat, I feel you'll be looking all over for extra attacks and damage, when you can just focus on beating that -5 to hit for +10 damage. Reckless attack will give you advantage, yes, but your enemies then also get advantage. And if you fight without armor, +1 defense style will not apply to you.

For me, a fighter's strength is his 7 feats, or however many he gets for you, is this case 6 for 14th level. I like the idea of 3 fighting styles also. I like the level of rouge, but only for the purpose of expertise in athletics coupled with shield master. Now you can give up a swing of the polearm to shove or prone someone in combat. So you knock him down, and this is where GWM shines when coupled with advantage.

Also I do not know what you rolled in stats, I feel maxing out the big three for you should be important but this comes from someone using the standard array.

[Spacehamster]

I like your build very cool

And as awesome as pole arm master is and sentinel, GWM is what you want. Without this feat, I feel you'll be looking all over for extra attacks and damage, when you can just focus on beating that -5 to hit for +10 damage. Reckless attack will give you advantage, yes, but your enemies then also get advantage. And if you fight without armor, +1 defense style will not apply to you.

For me, a fighter's strength is his 7 feats, or however many he gets for you, is this case 6 for 14th level. I like the idea of 3 fighting styles also. I like the level of rouge, but only for the purpose of expertise in athletics coupled with shield master. Now you can give up a swing of the polearm to shove or prone someone in combat. So you knock him down, and this is where GWM shines when coupled with advantage.

Also I do not know what you rolled in stats, I feel maxing out the big three for you should be important but this comes from someone using the standard array.

His stats are: 20/18/18/14/16/16

[djreynolds]

His stats are: 20/18/18/14/16/16

You have options galore there, grab sharpshooter and GWM, max out dex and con, grab resilient wisdom!!, take archery style, GWS,

The problem is that defensive style will not work when unarmored, but the UA had the tunnel fighter style and that would work with your polearm theme and then here polearm master makes great sense, even over my GWM. You will have plenty of feats.

Enjoy these rolls, you may never roll so well again.

Love to see your final vision.

[Spacehamster]

You have options galore there, grab sharpshooter and GWM, max out dex and con, grab resilient wisdom!!, take archery style, GWS,

The problem is that defensive style will not work when unarmored, but the UA had the tunnel fighter style and that would work with your polearm theme and then here polearm master makes great sense, even over my GWM. You will have plenty of feats.

Enjoy these rolls, you may never roll so well again.

Love to see your final vision.

Sadly already got Pole and Sentinel so will get 3 more ASI´s with the levels I take, will prob be GWM and Sharpshooter + max DEX.

[djreynolds]

Sadly already got Pole and Sentinel so will get 3 more ASI´s with the levels I take, will prob be GWM and Sharpshooter + max DEX.

Never be sad, its all good. But check out the UA for the tunnel fighter style, it allows additional reaction attacks perfect for pole arm masters

[Spacehamster]

Never be sad, its all good. But check out the UA for the tunnel fighter style, it allows additional reaction attacks perfect for pole arm masters

Thought about tunnel fighter but it would prob make me outshine every other melee too much since I'm the only person in our group that reads up a lot on the material, the one that makes you swim and climb at move speed seems tempting tho since he will have expertise in athletics it fits well. :)

[Citan]

Triggering horde breaker is up to the DM's monster placement, why would you want your level 20 character reliant on anyone but himself? Having free range over your attack is much better than horde breaker.

Superiority Die Maneuvers are low level features that aren't worth the resource. Especially at higher levels. The damage from them is nice but fighter's can do that without MC.

Hi all!
I jump in to react on this. The rest of your points are valid points imo, these two not.
1. Don't understand what you meant by free range? Fighter 20 4th attack?
Well, you get it much earlier with Horde Breaker, and it's a FREE attack. As for creature placement... First, while you're right at core, there are still many occasions where you can have a pair of monsters clumped together. Second, if it's really needed and he's alone, he may use a manoeuver with a ranged attack to push a monster (although imo it should rarely happen). Third, more important: "why would you want your character on anyone but himself". Because, why not? Why not rely a bit on teamwork to build greatness far greater and far more enjoyable than what you could achieve alone?

2. Considering the Manoeuvers worthless because the damage doesn't scale is, sorry to be blunt, not having ever understood their real usefulness: CONTROL.

Where I join your sentiment though, is that taking Maneouvers feature so far make them more a "nova/emergency" contengency than a feature you could use on a regular basis (one could argue that a true Battlemaster don't get much more than that anyways though ^^).

As for your general sentiment... Sure, it may be not "greater" per se than pure Barbarian or Fighter for dealing damage. But it brings more options though, especially on the control field, feeling like an enraged fighter who nevertheless actually thinks BEFORE hitting. And you're much more tanky than a pure Champion.^^
Furthermore, three Fighting Styles are nothing to sneeze at. Pick Mariner (+ swimming and climbing, +1 AC), Close Quarter Shooters and Great Weapon for a two-hander naked Barb, or take Archery, CQS and Defense for an archer Barb, or Dueling, Defense and Protection for a S&B defender... You get sensible bonus to offense and/or defense while in some cases sparing a feat slot.

So, it is probably lesser in terms of sustained (no-resource) damage than a Champion, but it feel more reliable and powerful for the big fights. :=)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Hi all!
I jump in to react on this. The rest of your points are valid points imo, these two not.
1. Don't understand what you meant by free range? Fighter 20 4th attack?
Well, you get it much earlier with Horde Breaker, and it's a FREE attack. As for creature placement... First, while you're right at core, there are still many occasions where you can have a pair of monsters clumped together. Second, if it's really needed and he's alone, he may use a manoeuver with a ranged attack to push a monster (although imo it should rarely happen). Third, more important: "why would you want your character on anyone but himself". Because, why not? Why not rely a bit on teamwork to build greatness far greater and far more enjoyable than what you could achieve alone?

2. Considering the Manoeuvers worthless because the damage doesn't scale is, sorry to be blunt, not having ever understood their real usefulness: CONTROL.

Where I join your sentiment though, is that taking Maneouvers feature so far make them more a "nova/emergency" contengency than a feature you could use on a regular basis (one could argue that a true Battlemaster don't get much more than that anyways though ^^).

As for your general sentiment... Sure, it may be not "greater" per se than pure Barbarian or Fighter for dealing damage. But it brings more options though, especially on the control field, feeling like an enraged fighter who nevertheless actually thinks BEFORE hitting. And you're much more tanky than a pure Champion.^^
Furthermore, three Fighting Styles are nothing to sneeze at. Pick Mariner (+ swimming and climbing, +1 AC), Close Quarter Shooters and Great Weapon for a two-hander naked Barb, or take Archery, CQS and Defense for an archer Barb, or Dueling, Defense and Protection for a S&B defender... You get sensible bonus to offense and/or defense while in some cases sparing a feat slot.

So, it is probably lesser in terms of sustained (no-resource) damage than a Champion, but it feel more reliable and powerful for the big fights. :=)

Real fast because I'm heading out...

I don't consider maneuvers bad because the damage doesn't scale. I considered them useless because their effects don't scale. You are using level 3 features at level 10, 15, or 20. The damage does scale, whoopee!

Your ability to control the battlefield at those higher levels is no different from when you was level 3.

It would be like forcing wizards and clerics to only have the spells they have at level 3 but give them a few more uses per day. You can't do all the cool and useful stuff that they typically can do.

Same thing with the Fighter, you aren't a higher level fighter, you are a low level fighter with a bit more numbers.

Plus as you level up, unless you continue to fight low CR creatures, your maneuvers start to become lackluster. Things start to be able to either ignore or are just minor inconvenience by your maneuvers. Some become flat out immune. The only use you get out of them, primarily, is their damage. Whoopee!

[Spacehamster]

Real fast because I'm heading out...

I don't consider maneuvers bad because the damage doesn't scale. I considered them useless because their effects don't scale. You are using level 3 features at level 10, 15, or 20. The damage does scale, whoopee!

Your ability to control the battlefield at those higher levels is no different from when you was level 3.

It would be like forcing wizards and clerics to only have the spells they have at level 3 but give them a few more uses per day. You can't do all the cool and useful stuff that they typically can do.

Same thing with the Fighter, you aren't a higher level fighter, you are a low level fighter with a bit more numbers.

Plus as you level up, unless you continue to fight low CR creatures, your maneuvers start to become lackluster. Things start to be able to either ignore or are just minor inconvenience by your maneuvers. Some become flat out immune. The only use you get out of them, primarily, is their damage. Whoopee!

Low level abilities does not have to be weak especially when it comes to martial classes they are usually pretty front loaded so bit silly to comparing it to spell casters which obviously you want as high lvl spells as soon as possible. Rage taking half damage from everything never gets outdated even tho its as you put it "a low level feature", battlemaster manuevers sure get a bit less prominent at later levels but the one that gives you an extra die to hit your target with never gets old when you really need to get a hit or 4 in, horde breaker as others said gets used quite alot especially if your group is melee heavy cause that tends to clump up the melee monsters, expertise never gets dated either actually gaining more power compared to not having expertise, so all in all its all round good and makes it a more versatile character all round. Not perfect in any way but a good melee char that can have some good use outside combat aswell. :)