Build Help: Spear and Board Holy Warrior

[glitterbaby]

So my character died in a campaign and I brought in a new guy but my DM said that since I brought him in mid-session I could make build changes so long as the general idea stays the same. I wanted to bring in a spear and board character focused on tanking and locking people down so they can't get behind him to his allies.

Level 4 Gestalt (casters that receive 6ths or higher don't get to gestalt)
Low-magic setting, I only get 4 levels of magic items per p226 of the MIC.
Banned: Artificer, Binder, Druid, Hexblade, Incarnum, Psionics, Spellthief, Shugenja, Truenamer
PF feat progression
PF favored class rules
One or two traits and up to two flaws, flaws must have an effect on the character but DM is really open to 'brew when it comes to flaws. If flaws are especially brutal, you can get two feats from it.

Swift Hunter - Ranged DPS
PF Alchemist - AoE DPS/BFC
Sorcerer - BFC/Utility

Feral Aasimar
Str 21 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 18
Crusader 4 // Sacred Path of Heironeous Monk 1 PF Paladin 2 Feral 1

Feats:
Flaw - Extra Granted Maneuver
Flaw - Steadfast Determination
Monk - Endurance
1 - Power Attack
3 - Stone Power (I guess this one isn't entirely necessary)

Nothing is 100% locked in but race. Feats can be changed but Steadfast is one of my favorite feats and I'd really like to keep it. Ability scores aren't set either but I do like where they're at. The only thing is that I'd like to see more dex to fuel Combat Reflexes for an AoO build.

So mechanically I wanted to be able to go for an AoO build with one-handed reach (DM is usually open to homebrew so if it doesn't already exist, I'm betting I could 'brew up a feat to let me use a longspear in one had) and then bash anyone that closes the gap with the shield using a feat like Knockback to send them flying backwards, provoking more AoO's and stuff. I also wanted to continue to progress my Paladin Smite/Lay on Hands and Crusader Maneuver progression. The issue I'm running into I guess is trying to fit so much into such a low level and I could use some help prioritizing. I've always hated playing a build in which the main mechanic doesn't come online until two or three levels from the start point but I really doubt I can fit everything I want.

Main Questions:

1) Will I be able to deal enough damage with maneuvers such that I don't want to take Power Attack? I just feel like I'm wrong if I don't take PA on a melee build.

2) If I don't take Power Attack is there any way to get a mechanic like the Knockback feat to use with a shield bash?

3) Where else can I get more feats in my build besides what I have? Paladin archetypes? Anything I'm not thinking of?

4) How should I prioritize feats/etc so that I can have a mechanically competent spear and board defender at level 4?

[Elxir_Breauer]

You could ask to use some stuff from the Path of War and the PoW Expanded books. In Expanded there is a feat that lets you use a two-handed Pole-arm one-handed as long as you have a Light or Heavy Shield in the off-hand (if you don't mind using a slightly different weapon), there's also the Silver Crane Discipline which is very much a re-done Devoted Spirit style for Maneuvers. Along with Golden Lion, you can have what amounts to a White Raven//Devoted Spirit build for very useful party utility and some healing to go with your damage (at the same time, no action economy loss). You could probably even Gestalt a Crusader with Devoted Spirit and a Warder and use some of the new stuff with the Warder half. (Pikeman's Training is the feat I was talking about, unfortunately only works with Pole-arms)
Links: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit

Edit: PoW Expanded is not currently released yet to my knowledge, thus the google docs link to the beta traits and feats.

[FocusWolf413]

Longspears are a type of polearm.

[J-H]

There's a feat in Unapproachable East called Long Reach that lets you use a shortspear as a reach weapon.

[Vaz]

The main problem with Spear and Shield is that there is no way to one hand a spear AND a shield without giving up Reach. I don't even recall a feat that allows one to do so.

This either turns the build into a 'Heavy Skirmisher' style build, inevitably turning into using the endless free action Force Javelins provided by that MiC gauntlet at later levels, or into a generic 2 Handed Power Attacker with a Reach weapon, only using Piercing rather than slashing for where that is relevant.

[Solidarity]

The main problem with Spear and Shield is that there is no way to one hand a spear AND a shield without giving up Reach. I don't even recall a feat that allows one to do so.

This either turns the build into a 'Heavy Skirmisher' style build, inevitably turning into using the endless free action Force Javelins provided by that MiC gauntlet at later levels, or into a generic 2 Handed Power Attacker with a Reach weapon, only using Piercing rather than slashing for where that is relevant.

Monkey grip on a fighter is usually not enough of a problem as long as you boost attack bonus through various means. You could even throw in oversized two weapon fighting if you needed to shield bash without sucking.

EDIT: Or you could be a Goliath.

[glitterbaby]

You could ask to use some stuff from the Path of War and the PoW Expanded books. In Expanded there is a feat that lets you use a two-handed Pole-arm one-handed as long as you have a Light or Heavy Shield in the off-hand (if you don't mind using a slightly different weapon), there's also the Silver Crane Discipline which is very much a re-done Devoted Spirit style for Maneuvers. Along with Golden Lion, you can have what amounts to a White Raven//Devoted Spirit build for very useful party utility and some healing to go with your damage (at the same time, no action economy loss). You could probably even Gestalt a Crusader with Devoted Spirit and a Warder and use some of the new stuff with the Warder half. (Pikeman's Training is the feat I was talking about, unfortunately only works with Pole-arms)
Links: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit

Edit: PoW Expanded is not currently released yet to my knowledge, thus the google docs link to the beta traits and feats.

I actually really like Warder, the only thing is that it's keyed off int instead of cha which is an issue as I have a -1 int mod. Would there be a big issue fluffwise to change it to cha? I can talk to my DM about the change, he's usually rather perceptive to these kinds of things if it works out with the flavor. Other than that, is there any major differences from ToB to PoW? I did a cursory read and didn't notice much difference but I could be missing something.

Edit: It looks like Pikeman's Training doesn't allow the use of a tower shield if I'm reading that correctly, which is less that ideal. If it's the only thing then I guess it's the only thing but if there are any other ideas then I'd certainly appreciate the input.

[Flickerdart]

Monkey grip on a fighter is usually not enough of a problem as long as you boost attack bonus through various means.
Monkey Grip does not permit you to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. It permits you to use a larger weapon with the original handedness.

[glitterbaby]

Ok so I talked with my DM and I have a few updates. I was able to get the Warder class to be keyed off charisma so we're all good on that front and Warder will be replacing Crusader. I was also able to get Pikeman's Training ok'd so that's also a go. Another thing, my DM offered to drop the BAB requirement for the Shield Mastery line of feats and I brewed up a feat to emulate TWF but for use with a shield only so I could actually qualify without the 15 dexterity. I've moved past most of my initial problems but I'm still running into that hefty -4 penalty on attacks to your main hand weapon. Is there any way around this or to mitigate this? I have no feats left to spend.

[dramatic flare]

Pathfinder?

3 levels of the phalanx soldier archetype for the fighter could solve some problems.

[glitterbaby]

Pathfinder?

3 levels of the phalanx soldier archetype for the fighter could solve some problems.

3.p actually. The feat Pikeman's Training that Elxir_Breauer suggested actually does what three levels of Phalanx Soldier Fighter would give me. It allows a two-handed polearm to count as one-handed. As far as I can tell, you still suffer a -4 penalty on attacks if you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and offhand. The Shield Master feat eliminates this for shield bashes but I still can't find a way around it with the main hand attacks.

[nedz]

You can wield a two handed weapon with a Buckler. Improved Buckler Defence is the feat you need to do this.

[glitterbaby]

As much as I don't want to shoot down the few options I have, I'd rather not use a buckler. The character in mind is a big guy with a big shield and a big spear. A buckler would barely be the size of his hand.

[Yogibear41]

You can Wield a small longspear in one hand if you are medium, but you take a -2 penalty to attack. The rules are under Inappropriately Sized Weapons, pg 113. PHB.

[glitterbaby]

You can Wield a small longspear in one hand if you are medium, but you take a -2 penalty to attack. The rules are under Inappropriately Sized Weapons, pg 113. PHB.

That'd get us a light weapon with reach (because of the Pikeman's Training feat). Unfortunately it nets us the same penalty to-hit. It's a -2 for TWFing with two light weapons (we ignore the penalty on the shield because of Shield Master feat) and then a -2 from Inappropriately Sized so we're right back to the same -4 we had when we were using a regular sized polearm.

[Eisfalken]

Just throwing some tidbits out, and they aren't from PF, so if it has to be PF core, disregard:

Check out the knight class in PHB2. It's not as optimal as TOB, but I personally find it at least slightly more flavorful than some options for a "tank" build. Only thing is that it has terrible Fort saves, so dipping may be better than riding it all the way. I'd get to 6th level for shield ally, which is pretty much the definition of "tanking" as a role. You could then slide into crusader for some of that goodness. FYI, the behavior code is more flexible than a paladin, and you only have to be Lawful but can still be Neutral or Evil after that.

Knight protector PrC looks neat, but actually suffers from bad Fort saves and abilities that aren't very useful for actually protecting people. Purple dragon knight is a little better, with assorted bonuses you can hand out usually as a free action.

There's some interesting shield-based fighting feats. Complete Warrior has Shield Charge and Shield Slam, which are a pretty neat combo: with one charge, you can make a trip attempt and also force a Fort save against being dazed (against a pretty decent DC, all things considered). If you are totally focused on the "tank" role, Hindering Opportunist and Stalwart Defense in PHB2 are pretty freaking useful; it allows you to substitute AoO attacks in certain situations for aid another checks (so you can give your allies a +2 AC against attackers, or with Hindering you can give a +2 attack bonus to, say, a rogue or other flanker). If you want to keep focusing on shield bashing while in combat, check out Agile Shield Fighter in PHB2 if your Dex isn't so good, otherwise stick to the TWF line.

PHB2 has combat form feats that could prove useful. Combat Focus, Combat Stability, and Combat Vigor mean that after you make an attack roll, you get +4 to Will saves, +8 against various combat options (bull rush, disarm, etc.), and fast healing 4 all for up to 12 rounds.

Miniatures Handbook has some other little extras. Double Hit lets you make off-hand attacks when you get an AoO; very neat if you had the Dex to get Imp. TWF with Imp. Shield Bash.

If I had to pick a route, go with knight/crusader, and load up on feats for TWF with shield bashing, then pick up Shield Charge/Slam as you get down the line. You'll be able to charge in for a shield bash, forcing a trip and a save-or-suck on the target, then make lots of attacks. Your knight abilities will let you defend allies, too; if something slips past you to the cleric or wizard, you can charge back to it, hopefully trip or daze it, then share some defense with the target. If there is any room left at the endgame, the combat form feats can keep you alive while doing all that running around.

I like the idea of that kind of build. Consider getting Variable on the shield (tower shields give cover which can be clutch in a fight with stuff using breath weapons and the like). You might even get a (spiked) gauntlet with Shielding property; the heavy shield it makes gets the weapon bonus to both shield bash attacks and to AC bonus (and you might sweet-talk the DM into allowing you to enchant the shield separately, making it Variable and thus even more useful).

If you get a Variable shield or Shielding gauntlet, get a Changeling spear. I know you don't want to use a buckler, but sometimes having that choice of longspear and the reach it gives you is crucial. Then when you're in close combat, you can shrink it to shortspear and pop your big shield. Or even throw the spear when needed (get Returning on it, of course).

[Yogibear41]

If you are using Maneuvers why do you need to make full attacks and two weapon fighting with a shield. It would probably be just as good to just use maneuvers and a single attack each round at your highest bonus. Then you could spend your feats on other things instead of burning them all on two-weapon fighting?

[dascarletm]

3rd party feat for shield and spearing: Shaft and Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/combat-feats---3rd-party---kobold-press/shaft-and-shield-combat)

Take Short Half from PHB2

Or use a short spear and take Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final).

Otherwise I had made some phalanx shield and spear fighters as a group of NPCs in a campaign. Phalanx Fighter archetype, as was mentioned, worked well.

[Solidarity]

Monkey Grip does not permit you to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. It permits you to use a larger weapon with the original handedness.

That isn't necessarily true. Resizing weapons from back in just 3.0 would treat differently sized weapons to be of different make. For instance a large shortspear would be treated as a medium longspear in regards to damage, and if such a spear is meant for a large creature, why would it not have reach corresponding to a creature from one size category down? I'm sure most logical DM's would be willing to work with you should you talk to them about it.

To quote the feat as stated in CW:

"A large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a large creature) is considered a two handed weapon for a medium creature that does not have this feat."

It goes on to say you can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, and a larger two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. The only restrictions it actually states are that you can't wield a large weapon in your off-hand (circumvented by oversized two-wep fighting) and that you can't apply the feat to a large double weapon.

Nowhere in its description does it state that you can't use a two-handed weapon in one hand, and that's because that's precisely what a large weapon equivalent is.

[gorfnab]

3.p actually. The feat Pikeman's Training that Elxir_Breauer suggested actually does what three levels of Phalanx Soldier Fighter would give me. It allows a two-handed polearm to count as one-handed. As far as I can tell, you still suffer a -4 penalty on attacks if you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and offhand. The Shield Master feat eliminates this for shield bashes but I still can't find a way around it with the main hand attacks.
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting feat from Complete Adventurer?

[Flickerdart]

To quote the feat as stated in CW:
To quote the relevant part, AKA what the feat actually does: "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll but the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon does not change."

The amount of effort it takes to use the weapon does not change. You cannot use Monkey Grip to take a weapon and reduce the amount of effort (the "handedness") needed to use it, period, end of sentence. No amount of sophistry changes the actual rules of the feat, though you may be able to convince a DM to houserule it.

You can read a much more elaborate explanation to why Monkey Grip doesn't let you wield a two-handed weapon in one hand here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/53589/does-monkey-grip-allow-wielding-2-handed-weapons-in-1-hand). For what it's worth, the Sage Advice column also agrees that you can't use Monkey Grip this way.

[Solidarity]

To quote the relevant part, AKA what the feat actually does: "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll but the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon does not change."

The amount of effort it takes to use the weapon does not change. You cannot use Monkey Grip to take a weapon and reduce the amount of effort (the "handedness") needed to use it, period, end of sentence. No amount of sophistry changes the actual rules of the feat, though you may be able to convince a DM to houserule it.

You can read a much more elaborate explanation to why Monkey Grip doesn't let you wield a two-handed weapon in one hand here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/53589/does-monkey-grip-allow-wielding-2-handed-weapons-in-1-hand). For what it's worth, the Sage Advice column also agrees that you can't use Monkey Grip this way.

To say that the effort needed to wield the weapon directly translates to how many hands are required to hold it is a bit misguided. Nothing legitimately states your claim, so all that really is, is interpretation, not "how it's ruled". The same goes for the well respected Sage Advice column. All I mean to say is that it is not RAW that you are unable to use the feat in such a way. I would argue that the effort required to wield it is presented enough in the deficit to attack bonus. Therefore, I guarantee that if you talk to your DM to clear it up in how he would interpret the RAW (not "houserule" as it isn't ruled that it isn't allowed), he'd likely side with you. It isn't game-breaking at the least, so I see no reason to side the other way about it.

Don't forget, the table for resizing weapons on the DMG p.27 actually equates a large shortspear and a medium spear. (one is one handed, the other is not.) This would change the "handedness" of the base weapon depending on relative size, would it not?

[Flickerdart]

To say that the effort needed to wield the weapon directly translates to how many hands are required to hold it is a bit misguided.
Wrong. Literally the first sentence of the rules on handedness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lightOneHandedandTwoHandedMeleeWeapons ) gives us: "This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat."

Monkey Grip simply doesn't function the way you want it to, unless your DM takes pity on this terrible feat and houserules it to be better.

[Solidarity]

Wrong. Literally the first sentence of the rules on handedness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lightOneHandedandTwoHandedMeleeWeapons ) gives us: "This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat."

Monkey Grip simply doesn't function the way you want it to, unless your DM takes pity on this terrible feat and houserules it to be better.

I'll admit that I didn't know that such a descriptor translated to whether or not you use one or two hands to wield any weapon. That is news to me.

I'll keep only to exact wording in this case, without resorting to insinuations. Let's take this direct quote you yourself used.

"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll but the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon does not change."

The text states that the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon does not change. The object of that text grammatically would be "weapons one size category larger than you are".

Next,

"A large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a large creature) is considered a two handed weapon for a medium creature that does not have this feat."

These two sentences can't be disputed, correct? They're both direct quotes. Than why in the way you imply how this feat works do they contradict each other? You and the person you'd quoted are assuming that the effort required to wield the weapon corresponds only to the size category that you are, as opposed to the actual subject of the clause--being "a weapon one size category larger than you are". The effort required by a large sized longsword is one hand for a large creature, and if it states that you need two hands as a medium creature without the feat, then obviously with the feat you can wield with one hand, thus not changing the original effort required to wield it as per the weapon's normal size category, and keeping true to the text. The effort to wield a longsword remained one hand through this process.

Why then would the OP not be allowed to wield a large shortspear in one hand? A large shortspear and a medium shortspear, with this feat would require one hand because as you said, the effort required to wield it wouldn't change. Because that's the thing you still haven't addressed. A large shortspear is a medium spear. A core book variant equates the two, on a table (not a houserule, where one just tweaks core rules because they want to). Should a DM choose to employ the variant, it is completely within SRD limitations to use the feat in this way as much as it is viable to play a variant class like the Paladin of Tyranny, Freedom or Slaughter. Just talk to your DM and ask if they'd implement this variant from the DMG.

[Andezzar]

As a medium creature the effort to use a large one-handed weapon is two-handed use. To wield the same weapon as a medium creature with the monkey grip feat the effort still is two-handed use because the effort does not change.

A medium creature cannot wield a large two-handed weapon, because it takes too much effort. The same is true for a creature with the monkey grip feat, because the effort does not change.