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Trask
2016-01-26, 06:46 PM
Hey forums,

I'm currently writing the next chapter of my campaign spring boarding off of Fright at Tristor. This adventure is gonna be very heavily themed around fighting Orcs threatening Tristor and I have two PC's who HATE Orcs. A Crusader who worships Pelor and a Dwarf Cleric of Moradin. Problem is that I have a new person who wants to come into the campaign as an Orc Barbarian. He is a Chaotic Neutral Alignment, so not evil, and his backstory involves a situation where he lost his people and was raised by a private mercenary band. I'm planning on inserting him as a "mole" for the town against the Orcs threatening them, and he'll be a PC with backstory tied to the Orc clans they're fighting as he spied on them pretending to be evil.

My other two players have expressed extreme disapproval with this and want the other person to pick a different race, the Dwarf Cleric player in particular as he has cited Moradin's will being to eradicate all Orcish Kingdoms and Gruumsh worshipers. Do you guys have any tips with assuaging racial hatreds between PC's? I'm not very experienced with player drama as a DM (although ive participated mightily as a player) :smallbiggrin:

I appreciate any help!

Weyroc
2016-01-26, 07:02 PM
Honestly? You seem like you might be out of luck. The orc hating was established before anything else, and unless you have Moradin come down and be like, "Yo, this is one of the good ones.", your dwarf is roleplaying correctly.

This is a bit like coming to a Paladin of Kelemvor and wanting to play an undead. If they had made the characters together, some sort of exception could be established, but at this point, you're asking them to swerve their own characters for the newcomer.

Now, you could have the orc HIDE that he's an orc, through disguise, armor, magic, or some other method, but if they find out, he's gonna die. A half-orc could probably work as a compromise if he can find some common ground with the orc haters.

Elvenoutrider
2016-01-26, 07:14 PM
Have the enemy Orc faction discover that he is a mole and have the pcs encounter the new player as he is being attacked by the enemy Orc faction

Trask
2016-01-26, 07:30 PM
Honestly? You seem like you might be out of luck. The orc hating was established before anything else, and unless you have Moradin come down and be like, "Yo, this is one of the good ones.", your dwarf is roleplaying correctly.

This is a bit like coming to a Paladin of Kelemvor and wanting to play an undead. If they had made the characters together, some sort of exception could be established, but at this point, you're asking them to swerve their own characters for the newcomer.

Now, you could have the orc HIDE that he's an orc, through disguise, armor, magic, or some other method, but if they find out, he's gonna die. A half-orc could probably work as a compromise if he can find some common ground with the orc haters.

I thought as much. In addition to the comment by Elvenoutrider, I was thinking that I could get away with it if the quest giver specifically assigned the Orc to help them in their mission, and I worked in some situation where he had to "prove his worth" as it were and kill enemy orcs. My logic proceeded that even a follower of Moradin, if he was Lawful Good could not in right conscience strike him down and call it good. Although that doesn't necessarily explain why they would let him be in the party at all.

Weyroc
2016-01-26, 07:33 PM
You can also just pull the players aside and ask them to let it slide for the sake of fun. Everyone's there to play a game, I'm sure the characters that don't exist can be shifted a little by the actual human beings who understand it's a game so that another player can join.

Trask
2016-01-26, 07:40 PM
I've tried. The Crusader player seems willing to simmer towards racial hatred but tolerate him. Dwarf player not so much. It's a pretty roleplay centric group

Kyberwulf
2016-01-26, 07:50 PM
Like the guy said. Have the Dwarf God come on down and say. "YO, This dude be tight wit me. for now" Then make it clear that harming the Orc, or allowing the Orc to die due to inaction... is a violation of The will. And he will lose access to His Dwarf god powers. Make it clear to the Dwarf that the god is serious about this. As this would cause a HUGE blow to Orckind and thus further their cause. The choice is then in the hands of the Cleric. If he wines about being railroaded. Just remember, he works for the gods. Not the other way around.

The other guy.... we need more backround on him.

Kane0
2016-01-26, 08:05 PM
Have him classically trained or otherwise well educated. If he speaks like a shakespearean actor instead of "Me smash you good" there might just be enough pause for him to get his foot in the door.

Existing players and established parties do have seniority when it comes to new characters, but this might be a bit of an eye opener for the Dwarf and Pelorian to be eloquently and convincingly labelled as discriminatory or even bigoted.

I'd say try the orc and have the new guy ready with a backup character since there is no guarantee that the party will accept him as is.

Mephit
2016-01-26, 08:24 PM
I agree with Kane, some friction between PCs is fine and they don't need to be friends at the outset and the confrontation with a non-evil Orc could lead to good roleplaying opportunities and character development.

That said it doesn't help that the Orc character is chaotic neutral. That's about as opposite of an alignment you can have to the (presumably) LG characters already playing, without being straight up evil.
Have you considered asking the new player to compromise his character a bit too and making him a CG Orc? That could help justify why Moradin would not approve of violence towards him, and it would make him fit far better in the party in my opinion. Two holy followers of Pelor and Moradin with a CN mercenary tagging along is difficult to justify in the long term.

NRSASD
2016-01-26, 08:32 PM
How well do your dwarf, crusader, and orc players know each other in real life? If they're good friends already outside the game, it'll probably work out (and if not, odds are there won't be any hard feelings). If not, be very cautious. It can work, but it can also fall apart.

I'd suggest that the new guy opt for playing a Hobgoblin, Orog, or another goblinoid, or maybe even a half-orc. If his heart is set on being an orc though, not all hope is lost. The dwarf and the orc can still bond over their shared hatred of the bad guy orc clans.

I'm not a fan of direct divine guidance, but if you think it'll work, do it. I'd prefer having the local head of the Moradin church tell your dwarf in no uncertain terms that he/she holds the PC directly responsible for anything bad that happens to the orc on the PC's watch. The head of the church is entrusting the PCs with the information about the orc mole because they trust that the PCs are competent enough to see the big picture at stake here. Kill the orc PC and you kill an orc, but help him and you destroy the entire orc tribe. Sometimes you have to do personally distasteful things to achieve the best results. If the dwarf complains, pull the NPC's rank on him and tell him to "Shut Up and Soldier, Soldier." The dwarf has been given this mission because he's the most competent one here: don't make me regret my decision.

Two benefits for using the head of the local church:
1. You can promise material rewards/titles in exchange, while Moradin can only threaten with divine wrath
2. This also sets up the head of the church as a possible antagonist further down the road. How did he know about the orc traitor? We already know he's willing to compromise his creed (Kill all Orcs no questions asked) to get an edge over his rivals, so who's to say where his true loyalties lie? Maybe the leader is on the bad orcs' pay and is flushing out the traitor to see if there are any more spies in the camp. Maybe he's a priest of the god of deception in disguise. Maybe he's a just little too fond of the "ends justify the means" clause. After all, unleashing a couple of minor demons on the orcs won't hurt anyone important. They're just orcs after all.

You don't have to play up the #2 angle if you don't want to, but it leaves your options open.

TheIronGolem
2016-01-26, 08:48 PM
I've tried. The Crusader player seems willing to simmer towards racial hatred but tolerate him. Dwarf player not so much. It's a pretty roleplay centric group

"Roleplay" does not mean "I get to veto fellow players' character concepts". That player can find a reason for their character to tolerate the new character, and they should. If they won't, they're just being a jerk and using "but it's what my character would do!" as an excuse.

Do make sure you introduce the new character in a manner where it's clear they're not a threat. Maybe he can get them out of some pickle they get into, like springing them out of a prison cell after they've been captured. Give the players no room whatsoever to "mistake" the new guy for an enemy.

Trask
2016-01-26, 09:00 PM
They know each other well in real life but thats not even better, if you know what I mean. I like the idea of Moradin telling the dwarf that he has to accept the Orc, and I think I might be able to persuade the Orc player to be Chaotic good, or maybe a half orc.

nedz
2016-01-26, 09:25 PM
Have him classically trained or otherwise well educated. If he speaks like a shakespearean actor instead of "Me smash you good" there might just be enough pause for him to get his foot in the door.

He wants to play a CN Barbarian though, so your concept may not be what the player has in mind.

To be frank, if you are running a game where the designated enemy race is Orc then you are going to have a hard time selling this one. It's probably best to tell the new player to save this character concept for another game and play something else. Even if you do pull it off then you run the real risk of breaking your game - in role-play terms.

Kane0
2016-01-26, 09:56 PM
Alternatively you could have this PC orc be so absolutely brutal towards his fellows (be they actually his clan/tribe or no) that he makes the kill-on-sight crusaders appear reasonable by comparison. That should also give them enough pause to consider without undermining the character concept.

goto124
2016-01-27, 01:47 AM
very heavily themed around fighting Orcs

I have two PC's who HATE Orcs

a new person who wants to come into the campaign as an Orc

Why does the new person want to enter the campaign as an Orc? Shouldn't the first bit ("very heavily themed around fighting Orcs") be obvious from the start?

icefractal
2016-01-27, 01:59 AM
"Roleplay" does not mean "I get to veto fellow players' character concepts". That player can find a reason for their character to tolerate the new character, and they should. If they won't, they're just being a jerk and using "but it's what my character would do!" as an excuse.I don't agree. You could equally well say "The new player can find a reason to play something other than a CN Orc."

I've seen people try to play really opposed types, and while it occasionally works, the much more common outcome is that one of the characters gets really watered down. "I am the champion of justice! Except, um, for that corrupt warlock who hangs out with me and puts curses on people to extort them. I have, er, some really good reason to associate with him, honest!" If they were both coming in at the same time, I'd say they should both modify their characters, but in this case I'd side with the one who's already been playing said character.

Also, in this specific instance, having allied Orcs at all is sort of pulling the rug out from under the Paladin. If he's been playing on the assumption that Orcs are inherently evil, like zombies or something, and the DM's been agreeing with that, then saying they're not all evil changes everything. Suddenly, his past actions look less like divine smiting and more like being a genocidal jerkass. So that could be a source of opposition as well.

KillianHawkeye
2016-01-27, 02:11 AM
Also, in this specific instance, having allied Orcs at all is sort of pulling the rug out from under the Paladin. If he's been playing on the assumption that Orcs are inherently evil, like zombies or something, and the DM's been agreeing with that, then saying they're not all evil changes everything. Suddenly, his past actions look less like divine smiting and more like being a genocidal jerkass. So that could be a source of opposition as well.

But since the OP never mentioned any Paladins, this doesn't really seem like a relevant issue.

icefractal
2016-01-27, 02:15 AM
Cleric, I meant. The class isn't really relevant in this case, although being a follower of Moradin presumably is.

Satinavian
2016-01-27, 02:37 AM
How about this.

The orc already works with the town and gets assigned to the group. But the townspeople don't trust an orc-ally any more than the priest does. The dwarf cleric gets charged with the task to find a proof of the orcs deception to convince everyone in the future that all orc are traitors and evil and should never be allied or allowed into the town again. Even if they seem helpful.

Because of the dwarfs prejudice he will assume there is some dark secret to discover.



Also, in this specific instance, having allied Orcs at all is sort of pulling the rug out from under the Paladin. If he's been playing on the assumption that Orcs are inherently evil, like zombies or something, and the DM's been agreeing with that, then saying they're not all evil changes everything. Suddenly, his past actions look less like divine smiting and more like being a genocidal jerkass. So that could be a source of opposition as well.I kind of assumed he wants to play his character as a racist bigot or genocidal religious fanatic. The usual stuff about flawed heroes.


Why does the new person want to enter the campaign as an Orc? Shouldn't the first bit ("very heavily themed around fighting Orcs") be obvious from the start? Because the noble warrior guy switching sides after (incident which shows the wrong way of his peroples leadership) and having to fight his brethren while still not being really recognized by his new allies is a really strong and common theme. As is the guy from one perople raised by another which is then thrown into a conflict between both parties.
So it's actually a legitimate character concept for a campaign centered around fighting orcs. That doesn't mean it neccesarily fits with how the conflict and the sides are supposed to be shown.



But if the dwarfplayer can't agree even with some kind of backstory, the orc should not be played.

Incorrect
2016-01-27, 05:22 AM
The new guy wants to play a CN Orc Barbarian, in a adventure focused on killing orcs.


It's a pretty roleplay centric group
With the risk of sounding prejudice about CN Orc Barbarians, but are you sure this is a fit for the group?

I agree with some of the above, the new guy can't play an orc if the existing players don't agree.
Offer him to play another barbaric race.

As a last resort, you could use Reincarnate as a reason.
He is an orc, with all the barbaric nature his BG gives him, but after dying we was reincarnated as something.
He is a dwarf, cursed by reincarnation to now be an orc and he hates his fate.

Spore
2016-01-27, 06:10 AM
Isn't it usually the player's job of explaining why this PC joins the party?

My DM denied my CE Orc Barbarian in a Drow centric group because he wouldn't even have access to most places the story would take in. Slave races would be okay but orcs sleep with the cattle. And an especially brutal, evil and tortured mind would be chained in a magical adamantium cage, only let out to breed and fight in the coliseum.

Lacco
2016-01-27, 07:14 AM
Why does the new person want to enter the campaign as an Orc? Shouldn't the first bit ("very heavily themed around fighting Orcs") be obvious from the start?

Good point.

However, from purely RP point of view, I see the challenge and the reason behind this (exploring the "is every orc really evil...?" thing sounds swell...). However, since the two players already on team have also valid point (no reason to introduce character that would get killed while staying in character)... I think what needs to be done is to modify the orc.

(Disclaimer: I don't do alignments & races so strictly, so take any advice with a grain of salt)

My suggestion: drop the CN. Take NG/CG. The orc has chosen Moradin as his god - and while he is still a bit chaotic due to his nature, he wants to follow the dwarven code (maybe he was saved by a dwarf?). I don't think you can kill a member of your church as a cleric if the person genuinely wants to be good/in nature with your own god. Or can you?

Exploring the "I want to be good, but my orc nature makes me do things..." and "my race vs. my god" could be nice too.

goto124
2016-01-27, 08:33 AM
I see the challenge and the reason behind this

A challenge indeed, enough that the other two group members should be, OOCly, on board with the whole orc thing.

Unfortunately, they're not.

Lacco
2016-01-27, 09:03 AM
A challenge indeed, enough that the other two group members should be, OOCly, on board with the whole orc thing.

Unfortunately, they're not.

I agree. That's why I would suggest that they should get together, with GM as mediator, and propose compromises, based on which they could work together. If the players accept the compromise (e.g. changing the orc to CG/NG/follower of Moradin), it could benefit their roleplay (since they are roleplay-heavy group).

My "selling point" would be OOC offer to dwarf player - you get an "appretice" - someone who needs guidance in his religion. His faith is strong, but his knowledge about religion, rituals, blablabla, is too poor. Learn him your ways. And if you accept, consider it a quest directly from Moradin.

Who doesn't enjoy playing a gruff, orc-hating dwarf, who has to deal on a day-to-day basis with an orc that worships the same god? :smallsmile: ...or is it just me? :smallbiggrin:

Keltest
2016-01-27, 09:08 AM
Personally, I like the idea of him being an orc informant or exile or something the town needs alive, but is trusting the party to watch like a hawk. Your Cleric and Crusader are probably lawful (or at least good) enough not to murder him on the spot, and it provides a compelling reason for him to stick with the party even if some members would rather not associate with him. Over time, he can earn their trust, or at least acceptance, and the party cant overtly antagonize him more than verbally, so as long as the player OOC is willing to go into this and not rise to potential provocations, it could be made to work.

Nobot
2016-01-27, 09:17 AM
They know each other well in real life but thats not even better, if you know what I mean. I like the idea of Moradin telling the dwarf that he has to accept the Orc, and I think I might be able to persuade the Orc player to be Chaotic good, or maybe a half orc.

As a player, I wouldn't like this. It would break all matter of suspension of disbelief if my god would come down from his hall of mead and bearded ladies to instruct me to accept another player; it would be a deus ex machina and it could very well activate trolling mode in a lot of players. If I were you, I would just tell the new guy that the game is focused around fighting Orcs and everyone hates Orcs. He can play an Orc and try to get the other players to not kill his Orc, but no tears or saltiness if they do, because that's, you know, what they do: they kill Orcs.

Pyrous
2016-01-27, 09:42 AM
This adventure is gonna be very heavily themed around fighting Orcs

I have two PC's who HATE Orcs

a new person who wants to come into the campaign as an Orc


Your problem is that the dwarf player is probably thinking this:

Why does the new person want to enter the campaign as an Orc? Shouldn't the first bit ("very heavily themed around fighting Orcs") be obvious from the start?


And when you add this:

They know each other well in real life but thats not even better, if you know what I mean.

I know where my mind would go.

If you can't convince the dwarf player, out of character, to accept this orc PC, then there's no way to include him in the campaign without wrecking it.

Flickerdart
2016-01-27, 11:15 AM
Why not compromise and go half-orc? He can still be a mole in the orc army, but the clerics have a reason to give him a chance (after all, he's half-human) and you get all the juicy roleplaying opportunity of "oh no I am torn between my two natures, woe is to he who is I."

OldTrees1
2016-01-27, 11:27 AM
The problem is that the existing players want to roleplay genocidal racists. This was/is fine but it does prevent adding a PC that is a member of the group the existing players want to exterminate.

Try a half-orc instead. The existing PCs might hold off murdering the half-orc because it is half-human and thus of some moral consideration even if it is sub-human.

Jenrock
2016-01-27, 11:29 AM
I think if you could get the new player to change his alignment a little as well as alter his backstory, this could work. To me, here's the key: don't let him play an Orc. More specifically, let him play an Orc that has converted to Moradin's faith. This conversion, metaphysically, means that he's no longer an Orc. Forum rules likely prevent me from delving too deep into this, but there are numerous real-world examples of this mentality.

This also adds some fun roleplaying for the new guy. If he plans to be a mole in a group of orcs, that means he must return, in part, to a life he left behind. Can he maintain his faith in the midst of his former brethren?

VoxRationis
2016-01-27, 01:14 PM
Have the mayor of the town inform them of the mole and set up a meeting. The players will know not to attack on sight and there's an implied authoritarian directive of "play nice" without being too on-the-nose like divine intervention would be.

LibraryOgre
2016-01-27, 01:43 PM
I'm not a fan of direct Deific intervention in this case, but I would point out that co-existing in the party doesn't necessarily mean they get along. The orc is there, the dwarf has to deal with it... but he doesn't have to like it. He makes remarks about the orc, constantly. He declines to help the orc in a fight. He doesn't thank the orc if he gets help in a fight. If he decides to "show the orc his place", he trips and wrestles, punches and kicks, rather than hitting him in the face with an axe.

If the dwarf's player is willing to go with that level of working with him, then the game can be very fun, as the orc deals with the dwarf's racism (and maybe gives some of his own back).

Trask
2016-01-27, 02:13 PM
The guy wanted to play an Orc PC because he thought it would be interesting and add some drama to the mix. We usually just play pretty uniform parties. I've asked him if he would be willing to just play a half Orc, or change his alignment, he said he's thinking about it. I assume he might just change his character entirely . After reading all the comments here I think it definitely would be for the best if he just didn't pick Orc, as potentially interesting as the party dynamics might be, it would be a hard rp and potentially upleasant for everyone.

Red Fel
2016-01-27, 03:08 PM
The guy wanted to play an Orc PC because he thought it would be interesting and add some drama to the mix.

The bolded language is key.

I can respect wanting to add some drama. The trick is that where you add drama depends on a few things.

You can add drama to your own PC, within reason. As long as it doesn't impair the party's ability to get things done, feel free to have a tragic past, or give the DM background hooks about a rival, or a lost love, or parental abandonment issues. I happen to think this makes for great RP, and can really help bring the party together as individuals by helping one another through their individual crises (provided, again, that those crises aren't utterly disruptive).

You can also add drama between your own PC and another PC, with that player's consent. The vitriolic best buds vibe of a Legolas and Gimli-style team can actually add a lot of fun to a campaign. But both players have to be onboard, otherwise you're just creating tension.

And that's the problem. Wanting to play an Orc in an anti-Orc campaign, without the consent of the other players, or more accurately after they've expressed their displeasure, isn't creating narrative drama. It's not creating a personal conflict that a character overcomes in order to evolve and grow. It's creating an unnecessary interpersonal and inter-player drama that is both unnecessary and unhelpful.

This game isn't about overcoming personal grudges or cultural biases or learning to judge people based on the contents of their character rather than the number of tusks in their mouths. It's about murdering up some evil greenskins. Introducing an Orc character for the primary purpose of challenging that fundamental premise of the game is risky at best; the fact that he explicitly said he wanted to "add some drama" is worrying. This isn't the kind of drama you need, or want.

If there were some kind of half-Orc half-Dwarf (and I don't think such a thing exists), that could make for interesting drama, as his character would be part of their society, as well as an outcast. He could appeal to their common Dwarven lineage, at least. But otherwise, I'd advise him to drop the Orc thing entirely. If he wants a burly savage Barbarian type, there are other options without the baggage. (Goliath comes to mind.)

denthor
2016-01-27, 04:11 PM
Run this by the two of them have him introduced by a third party that could be useful. Then run a solo for the orc see if the others want to join.

P.s. We can hate an entire country but not every individual

goto124
2016-01-27, 08:38 PM
If there were some kind of half-Orc half-Dwarf (and I don't think such a thing exists)

Not yet :smalltongue:

Flickerdart
2016-01-27, 09:10 PM
If there were some kind of half-Orc half-Dwarf (and I don't think such a thing exists), that could make for interesting drama, as his character would be part of their society, as well as an outcast.
Desert Half-Orc is an excellent candidate for being a half-Dwarf - they're -2 INT +2 CON, which mirrors the dwarf's stoutness.

Kyberwulf
2016-01-28, 01:15 AM
I like how One players special Snowflake can outweigh another players special Snowflake. I mean... Trying to tell this guy to not ask the dwarf or other guy to change their stance on a character. Because it will step on their right as players to have a snowflake. When you are infringing on this new guys snowflake. He has every right to play whatever character he wants. The other players just outright pking this guy is pretty messed up.

nedz
2016-01-28, 04:44 AM
I like how One players special Snowflake can outweigh another players special Snowflake. I mean... Trying to tell this guy to not ask the dwarf or other guy to change their stance on a character. Because it will step on their right as players to have a snowflake. When you are infringing on this new guys snowflake. He has every right to play whatever character he wants. The other players just outright pking this guy is pretty messed up.

I don't think it's about this at all. The theme of the campaign is Orc Genocide and someone wants to break this. Now there are merits in playing with a trope, but that's not what the players are doing, or want to do, at all.

Now you could have argued that running a genocide themed game is pretty messed up, but seeing this in terms of player entitlement is only one view.

Trask
2016-01-28, 08:17 AM
Now you could have argued that running a genocide themed game is pretty messed up, but seeing this in terms of player entitlement is only one view.

In my defense, its not just about slaughtering the Orc population, its attacking Orc clans directly threatening a town. But I suppose Orc hating PCs would hardly care about the semantics of the thing with which clans and stuff are involved.

gtwucla
2016-01-28, 08:19 AM
It's not going to be the most popular of options, but you could just let the guy in. It seems like its pretty clear to him that at least one party member will be violent towards him. So when they meet in the story maybe they fight. You can present a situation where they're both unarmed and duke it out. Or open with the orc character in a somewhat vulnerable position, so they'd have to stab him in the back to kill him (I'm assuming that's not their thing). Or do the reverse and he comes in to help/save them and they're forced to follow him to safety. And if that fails or you don't want to do that, he shows up and gets attacked on sight and the cards fall how they fall.

Lacco
2016-01-28, 09:59 AM
It's not going to be the most popular of options, but you could just let the guy in. It seems like its pretty clear to him that at least one party member will be violent towards him. So when they meet in the story maybe they fight. You can present a situation where they're both unarmed and duke it out. Or open with the orc character in a somewhat vulnerable position, so they'd have to stab him in the back to kill him (I'm assuming that's not their thing). Or do the reverse and he comes in to help/save them and they're forced to follow him to safety. And if that fails or you don't want to do that, he shows up and gets attacked on sight and the cards fall how they fall.

I loved it when in favourite book the main character and his most hated enemy had to stay together - after some time there were fighting words said...and they had a fistfight, broken by third character. Who whipped them with her belt until they both cried for help :smallsmile:

Ok, that wouldn't work in RPG...I think...

TheTeaMustFlow
2016-01-28, 11:50 AM
If he's a mercenary, have him be hired by the PCs superiors (or whatever other authorities the PCs would respect) and if the PCs complain, pull rank on them.

Also, have the bosses drop hints that blind hatred is not the Peloran/Dwarven Way.

Well, not blind hatred. Considered, reasoned hatred. That's the Peloran/Dwarven Way.

Flickerdart
2016-01-28, 02:27 PM
Alternatively, have the player's character come in as an orc, get murdered, and have a friendly druid reincarnate him as not-an-orc. Or the reverse.

goto124
2016-01-29, 12:25 AM
Have a cookie for suggesting the Reincarnation method.

Spore
2016-01-29, 02:58 AM
We had a clan of mountain orcs in our campaign that pulled themselves from the fringes of evil by worshipping the Dwarven pantheon and introducing a matriachial theocracy. The oldest (i.e. most high level) cleric of Moradin was made chieftain.

The women of their clan were tired of being oppressed by the men. A peace loving dwarven cleric - possibly a prisoner - told them about the Dwarven faith. He taught them in the ways of the force and enabled them to break off of the major orcish horde in the region.

Jayngfet
2016-01-29, 05:47 AM
I like how One players special Snowflake can outweigh another players special Snowflake. I mean... Trying to tell this guy to not ask the dwarf or other guy to change their stance on a character. Because it will step on their right as players to have a snowflake. When you are infringing on this new guys snowflake. He has every right to play whatever character he wants. The other players just outright pking this guy is pretty messed up.

Ultimately this is the truth.

They're fighting hundreds of people. There's an extra sword arm. They don't like it, suck it up. This isn't you and sidekicks and your glorious victory. It's about an unlikley group of heroes who manages to stop an overwhelming number of orcs.

As far as I care, that's the long and short of it. Speaking from experience it's best to just come down with that and not leave it up for discussion. If I had a penny for every time some guy thought playing a dwarf means "I get to be a jerk to another PC, because everyone knows Dwarves hate species X Y and Z and will barb races they don't attack on sight regularly" I could buy every edition of every tabletop game ever made.

And it really is always Dwarven players who act like this. This guy could have played a goblin if they're against orcs and it wouldn't matter. If it was an elf he'd very likely just beat the same dead horse. Or a kobold. Or a half ogre. Or hell even a human of the wrong alignment.

If this Dwarf feels that strongly about not working with Orcs, under any circumstances, even when innocent lives are on the line, the players character can just leave. Any destiny stuff will affect both of them so he gets no special treatment. Any skills he has are either balanced by the equally skilled orc or outweighed by a mole who can turn an otherwise unwinnable fight into something won by guile and circumstance.

Segev
2016-01-29, 10:56 AM
It may not be sufficient, but it sounds like the Moradin-worshipper is leaning heavily on a doctrine that says "destroy orcish kingdoms" and "kill all Gruumsh-worshippers."

This Orc PC is not a Gruumsh-worshipper, is he? And he's not promoting an orc kingdom; he is, in fact, aiding in their destruction.

The means of introducing the orc should help. Whether it's in a formal meeting of high-ranking NPCs in this war who tell the party in no uncertain terms that this orc is on their side, or it's somehow mid-mission with the orc having a means of proving which side he's on sufficiently that killing him before they can even TALK is outright suicidal, that can provide the IC excuse for cooperative PLAYERS to play their PCs in character while giving this orc a chance to "prove himself."

First, though, you have to convince the players to be on board with making an exception for this orc. Then work on how to convince their PCs. With the players complicit in convincing the PCs, you can pre-arrange the story of his acceptance. This is a rare case where railroading, where the railroading is done by ALL the players on purpose, is useful: know your end goal and write a story that works for everybody.

But you first need to make sure you're 100% clear on the reasons for the other players' objections. Point out to the dwarf that Moridin's commandment isn't to genocide all orcs, but to destroy their kingdoms and kill all worshippers of Gruumsh. This orc is not the latter and is helping with the former. So his PC hopefully has room in his Lawful alignment to consider it. See if there are other "no I just can't see this working" objections. This isn't an EASY question.

Alex12
2016-01-29, 08:13 PM
Alternatively, have the player's character come in as an orc, get murdered, and have a friendly druid reincarnate him as not-an-orc. Or the reverse.

This could actually be even more effective. Perhaps before the game starts, the orc barbarian was in fact a dwarf barbarian, was killed in some fashion and got Reincarnated as an orc. He is obviously unhappy about this, but lacks the resources to get himself changed back magically.

Alternately, well, fluff is mutable. Orc player could use orc stats, but have enough human blood (say the offspring of a half-orc and an orc, or something) that the dwarf is willing to tolerate it.

cougon
2016-01-30, 04:22 PM
I've been reading this thread with interest, and find it fascinating that only a couple of people have mentioned what I feel is the start and end of the conversation. The Dwarf player was there first and has already played at least one session, likely more. It's the responsibility of the new player to create a character that fits with the party, not the the responsibility of the established player to change his character to make room for the new one. It would be different if they were creating characters to start the game together it would be different, but that's not the case here.

Keltest
2016-01-30, 04:48 PM
I've been reading this thread with interest, and find it fascinating that only a couple of people have mentioned what I feel is the start and end of the conversation. The Dwarf player was there first and has already played at least one session, likely more. It's the responsibility of the new player to create a character that fits with the party, not the the responsibility of the established player to change his character to make room for the new one. It would be different if they were creating characters to start the game together it would be different, but that's not the case here.

Its considered bad form to outright tell a player "no, you cant do that because we said so." Yes, its an option, and a fairly obvious one all things considered, but its not all that fun for the wannabe orc.

Thrudd
2016-01-30, 05:03 PM
I would suggest to the player that an Orc character may not be appropriate for the party, because the other characters will likely react poorly. If it were me, I would outright deny the option of an Orc character in this game. But if you say it's ok, then you need to be willing to face whatever results for your game.

Once the characters are decided on and approved, however, the DM doesn't tell the players how to portray their characters. If you and the new player still think the Orc is a good idea, it will be on the Orc player to figure how to integrate his character with the party. If it turns out that PvP happens, it happens. Let the players hash it out and come to their own arrangement/agreements.

denthor
2016-01-30, 05:25 PM
I've been reading this thread with interest, and find it fascinating that only a couple of people have mentioned what I feel is the start and end of the conversation. The Dwarf player was there first and has already played at least one session, likely more. It's the responsibility of the new player to create a character that fits with the party, not the the responsibility of the established player to change his character to make room for the new one. It would be different if they were creating characters to start the game together it would be different, but that's not the case here.

I started a thread that asked this question "Have you ever killed a pc or maybe player because "

Read that then you will understand why your thoughts on this matter were not voiced earlier on.

nedz
2016-01-30, 06:06 PM
Its considered bad form to outright tell a player "no, you cant do that because we said so." Yes, its an option, and a fairly obvious one all things considered, but its not all that fun for the wannabe orc.
Well

I would suggest to the player that an Orc character may not be appropriate for the party, because the other characters will likely react poorly. If it were me, I would outright deny the option of an Orc character in this game. But if you say it's ok, then you need to be willing to face whatever results for your game.

Once the characters are decided on and approved, however, the DM doesn't tell the players how to portray their characters. If you and the new player still think the Orc is a good idea, it will be on the Orc player to figure how to integrate his character with the party. If it turns out that PvP happens, it happens. Let the players hash it out and come to their own arrangement/agreements.
this.

Persuasion should be enough - and if the new player knows the score, and is up for playing the Orc, then fine.
The old players shouldn't know anything before they meet, and then it's epic role play or a new character.

Keltest
2016-01-30, 06:16 PM
Well

this.

Persuasion should be enough - and if the new player knows the score, and is up for playing the Orc, then fine.
The old players shouldn't know anything before they meet, and then it's epic role play or a new character.

Sure. Asking someone not to do something is fine. Forcing them not to do something is dangerously close to crossing a line.

Segev
2016-01-30, 07:08 PM
I just figured it went without saying that if you couldn't come to a way for the existing PCs to accept the orc PC, he would have to make something else, but that the desire was to try to make it work. Which means carefully going over the issues that make it not work with the players and finding ways to make it work, if possible. What has been described as the source of the issue(s) sounds like it's workable, to me, but it will still take discussion. And it may not work out.

endur
2016-01-30, 08:24 PM
My suggestion: drop the CN. Take NG/CG. The orc has chosen Moradin as his god - and while he is still a bit chaotic due to his nature, he wants to follow the dwarven code (maybe he was saved by a dwarf?). I don't think you can kill a member of your church as a cleric if the person genuinely wants to be good/in nature with your own god.

agreed. Have the orc be LG or NG. Not CN.

LibraryOgre
2016-02-01, 06:29 PM
Folks force players to do things all the time. "We're playing a game of Coalition soldiers." "I wanna be an ogre!" "Since you're all part of a human supremacist nation, no, you can't play a 10' tall non-human monster."

Quite frankly, setting guidelines on what player characters are allowed is part of good DMing. You can be flexible, but it's your table.

Psyren
2016-02-01, 08:39 PM
This doesn't seem that complicated to me. Even if they're fighting orcs tooth and nail, that doesn't mean they can't use the help of another orc.

I would make the barbarian orc be the estranged sibling or scion of the warlord that has galvanized them into a major threat, causing them to threaten Tristor. At a young age, he was exiled (or perhaps fled/smuggled out) when the orcs first began their aggressive expansion; starving and half-dead, he ended up being found and raised by the private mercenary band mentioned in the first post, to which he now owes his gratitude. Now, the orc PC wants only to remove his evil brother/father from power before their bellicose tendencies get his entire people wiped out. Perhaps he wishes to assume control of as many tribes as he can himself and shepherd what's left of the orcs to a brighter future, or perhaps he's completely through associating with his people and only wants revenge against the chieftain specifically. This will then lead into the mole plan mentioned in the OP.

Both of those goals (dissolving the orc threat entirely, or supplanting their warlike leader and guiding them to peace) should appeal to Moradin and Pelor too.

TL;DR - be creative!