[Pathfinder] Build advice: freebooter ranger

[punchbeard]

Hey all,

I've ended up with kind of an odd character for a S&S campaign. It's a freebooter ranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter) - which is generally disliked for giving up animal companion and favored enemy - since I thought it fits the nautical theme. Inefficient, yes, but I think that "just retire it" is a lazy solution, so I'd like to hear any suggestions for how to make this character not terrible.

For context, we're a party of 3 casters and 3 non-casters, so the Freebooter's Bane effect generally benefits half of the party. I took a lycanthrope template for the physical improvements (strength, constitution, DR, natural armor, natural weapons). I chose werecroc since it has a swim speed and 2 natural weapons, one of which has Grab. Here's what I have so far:

Dwarf (Saltbeard) Werecrocodile Ranger (Freebooter) 4
Traits: Magical Knack (Magic), Native (Campaign)
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Style feats: Aspect of the Beast (Claws 1d4)

Originally I aimed for a full-natural-attack build (bite/claw/claw/tail), so I picked the natural weapon combat style for ranger. For style feats, I think Eldritch Claws (level 6) and Multiattack (level 10) are ok because they aren't Vital Strike.

I max out at ranger level 13, so I have to plan for feats at levels 5-13. Probably take Cornugon Smash at some point. I thought about the Step Up and Strike route with an Amulet of Mighty Fists... but it's a 3-feat investment and it limits strategy. I'm sure there are smarter ways to capitalize on full natural attacks, maybe along the lines of Dazing Assault.
Now I'm instead thinking of using 2-handed reach weapons - the natural weapons still come in handy for threatening adjacent squares, and claws can be backup.
Aquatic Combatant might help because underwater combat is common, although a 2-handed piercing weapon kind of solves that issue. I could build on Power Attack (Furious Focus?), or take Combat Expertise as a prereq for something like Improved Trip. Things like Cleave and Improved Initiative are generally good choices, and Iron Will can help with the ranger's relatively low will save.

Ideas? Thanks in advance.

[avr]

You've got a couple of move action abilities, one of which mainly benefits you when you're flanking the enemy. There's an obvious tension there; neither combines well with a bunch of natural weapons you want to full attack with either.

The reach weapon is a good idea and you probably do want the step up line. If it seems like too much of an investment then try to get your allies to take the outflank feat (& do so yourself, too).

[punchbeard]

You've got a couple of move action abilities, one of which mainly benefits you when you're flanking the enemy. There's an obvious tension there; neither combines well with a bunch of natural weapons you want to full attack with either.
Initially I thought the party would have more melee power. Summon Nature's Ally can get me a flanker for a round or two, I guess. Anyhow, in terms of full attacks, I did the math:

Full natural attack at level 13: Claw/claw/bite/tail = 3 at full BAB, 1 at BAB-5. The damage is fair, and the high to-hit bonus is good for affording Dazing Assault later on, but the damage itself doesn't scale much.

By comparison, if I use a 2-hand spear, a full attack at level 13 is: Spear/spear/spear/(5-foot step)/tail/bite = 1 at full BAB, 1 at BAB-5, 1 at BAB-10, 2 at BAB-2 (because multiattack). In terms of raw damage, this setup hits more and hits harder.


The reach weapon is a good idea and you probably do want the step up line. If it seems like too much of an investment then try to get your allies to take the outflank feat (& do so yourself, too).

What's the point of the Step Up line if you use a reach weapon? It only applies to 5-foot steps from adjacent spaces. If SUAS applied to withdraws and/or threatened spaces, then that would be a different story.

[Geddy2112]

I see no problem with having both a reach weapon and natural attack-with combat reflexes, you become an area control blender. Flanking shennagians also help, but having to use the move action hurts, bad. You can always drop a weapon as a free action and go to town, so use the polearm early on and then go into rabid monster melee.

Keep in mind you still have the initial feats to select from in your combat style feat pool. Eldritch claws probably won't be needed at higher levels as your natural attacks will be magical, from some source. Multiattack is key, but the main feat you want is improved natural attack-take it for the claws, and maybe the bite too. Also, get wild instin

Against a BBEG, always tap freebooter's bane. It lasts till death, and is untyped bonus so it stays relevant all game. It has far less use in a big fight, where freebooters bane might help.

[punchbeard]

Eldritch claws probably won't be needed at higher levels as your natural attacks will be magical, from some source. Multiattack is key, but the main feat you want is improved natural attack-take it for the claws, and maybe the bite too.

The only other way to get magical natural weapons that I can think of is an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3. Improved Natural Attack is okay but it only increases a weapon's average damage by 1.

I'm definitely going to take Improved Initiative at level 5. It's never a bad feat. That way I can get Freebooter's Bane out early, as well as a ranger spell.

Any way to take advantage of the crocodile grab abilities? Grabbing/grappling doesn't synergize with Combat Reflexes or 2-handed weapons, so I'd only do it if there's only 1 target remaining.

[Geddy2112]

The only other way to get magical natural weapons that I can think of is an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3. Improved Natural Attack is okay but it only increases a weapon's average damage by 1.

I'm definitely going to take Improved Initiative at level 5. It's never a bad feat. That way I can get Freebooter's Bane out early, as well as a ranger spell.

Any way to take advantage of the crocodile grab abilities? Grabbing/grappling doesn't synergize with Combat Reflexes or 2-handed weapons, so I'd only do it if there's only 1 target remaining.

Why does it have to be +3? It is magical if you have even a +1. Also, you must not know about this spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-fang) that is on your list. It improves the damage by 1 on average, but if you use two claws, that starts to add up. Improved initiative is always good of course. You could just have the grab as a bonus tech-don't build for it, but with decent strength and cmb you can grab if you need to.

[punchbeard]

Why does it have to be +3? It is magical if you have even a +1.

Only a +3 enhancement or above overcomes DR. Eldritch Claws bypasses that. For a comparison:

Option A: Improved Nat Attack & Amulet of Mighty Fists (+3). This gives +3 to hit with nat weapons, which overcome DR. One nat weapon does 4 more damage, the others do 3 more.
Costs 36,000 gp.

Option B: Eldritch Claws & Amulet of Mighty Fists (shocking) & Belt of Giant's Strength (+4). This gives +2 CMB. Nat weapons overcome DR and do 3-8 more damage, and 2-handed weapons do 3 more damage.
Costs 20,000 gp (can also be done with an amulet with shocking+1, for 32,000 gp, either way it's cheaper). I like Option B.

[Geddy2112]

Only a +3 enhancement or above overcomes DR. Eldritch Claws bypasses that. For a comparison:

Option A: Improved Nat Attack & Amulet of Mighty Fists (+3). This gives +3 to hit with nat weapons, which overcome DR. One nat weapon does 4 more damage, the others do 3 more.
Costs 36,000 gp.

Option B: Eldritch Claws & Amulet of Mighty Fists (shocking) & Belt of Giant's Strength (+4). This gives +2 CMB. Nat weapons overcome DR and do 3-8 more damage, and 2-handed weapons do 3 more damage.
Costs 20,000 gp (can also be done with an amulet with shocking+1, for 32,000 gp, either way it's cheaper). I like Option B.

Oh yes, to overcome the silver it has to be +3. It overcomes magic DR at +1. Also keep in mind at +3 it overcomes cold iron resistance as well, while eldritch claws just beats silver and magic. It depends-will your campaign go into high levels? If so, the eldritch claws will be near worthless when you can have greater magic fang or afford/craft a +5 amulet. If you can retrain the feat, or it is going to be a low level campaign then take the eldritch claws/belt.

[punchbeard]

Oh yes, to overcome the silver it has to be +3. It overcomes magic DR at +1. Also keep in mind at +3 it overcomes cold iron resistance as well, while eldritch claws just beats silver and magic.
That's what I thought, but the editor's note on the amulet's pfsrd page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists) says it needs +3. Maybe I'm misunderstanding DR rules. Does a +1 enhancement bonus overcome DR/- and DR/slashing? Does Eldritch Claws overcome DR/- and DR/slashing?

The campaign caps at 14, so the highest craftable bonus is +4, which still costs 32000gp to craft. Greater Magic Fang gives an enhancement bonus to one attack, so it doesn't stack with the amulet.

[Geddy2112]

That's what I thought, but the editor's note on the amulet's pfsrd page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists) says it needs +3. Maybe I'm misunderstanding DR rules. Does a +1 enhancement bonus overcome DR/- and DR/slashing? Does Eldritch Claws overcome DR/- and DR/slashing?

The campaign caps at 14, so the highest craftable bonus is +4, which still costs 32000gp to craft. Greater Magic Fang gives an enhancement bonus to one attack, so it doesn't stack with the amulet.

Yeah, you are misunderstanding. DR/magic is beaten by anything that is magic, so a +1 enhancement beats that. DR/- is beaten by nothing. DR/slashing is beaten only by slashing. Eldritch claws only overcomes the specific two cases of DR, the DR/Magic and DR/Silver. At higher levels of enhancement, magic enhancement starts to beat other things. +3 beats DR/cold iron and DR/silver, +4 beats DR/adamantium and +5 beats DR/alignment.

Greater magic fang can be used to get all of your attacks a +1 instead, or boost a +more to a single attack. Surely you will have an amulet by then, but magic fang gives you the ability to use things like an amulet of nat armor if you want that instead. But a +1 on the amulet makes all melee attacks magic, and is easier to get sooner. So I would probably go +1 amulet and shocking, belt of giant strength. If you can go +3 amulet it hits magic, cold iron, and silver. Probably the best.

[punchbeard]

So I would probably go +1 amulet and shocking, belt of giant strength.

That's the plan for now. This is a campaign where lycanthropes appear now and then, so bypassing DR/silver is helpful. I probably should have mentioned that earlier.

As for the 4 feats, I might do Cornugon Smash, Dazing Assault, and 2 others. Step Up might be okay as one, but I don't think Step Up and Strike is worth investing 3 feats if I use reach half the time. Plus, a full natural non-power dazing assault is a heck of a way to stunlock a boss with high AC.

EDIT: It might help to dip 1 to 3 levels into fighter. The party already has 3 casters, and a level 13 ranger needs 18+ wisdom to cast level 4 spells anyway, so it won't hurt to exchange for 2 bonus combat feats.

[Platymus Pus]

Have you considered a permanency'd Premonition spell?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/4-winds-fantasy-gaming---3rd-party-spells/premonition

[punchbeard]

Have you considered a permanency'd Premonition spell?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/4-winds-fantasy-gaming---3rd-party-spells/premonition

Nope. No 3rd party spells.

I think my best strategy for this build is to take 3 levels in fighter, eventually ending up as ranger 10 / fighter 3. Then grab a Sash of Fighter Bonuses +1 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/sash-of-the-war-champion) for a fair price.

[Geddy2112]

That's the plan for now. This is a campaign where lycanthropes appear now and then, so bypassing DR/silver is helpful. I probably should have mentioned that earlier.

As for the 4 feats, I might do Cornugon Smash, Dazing Assault, and 2 others. Step Up might be okay as one, but I don't think Step Up and Strike is worth investing 3 feats if I use reach half the time. Plus, a full natural non-power dazing assault is a heck of a way to stunlock a boss with high AC.

EDIT: It might help to dip 1 to 3 levels into fighter. The party already has 3 casters, and a level 13 ranger needs 18+ wisdom to cast level 4 spells anyway, so it won't hurt to exchange for 2 bonus combat feats.

Hm, I know little about S&S other than it is on boats. If you face a lot of lycanthropes, you need DR/silver, particularly for a multiple attack build. Dazing assault is solid, but also consider furious focus to help attacks stick with power attack/cornugon smash so you get the intimidate check. I still like step up for the ability to negate 5ft steps, but this may be useless in skulls& shackles and with your DM. I don't think you need the rest of the feats in that tree. Fighter levels don't hurt when you don't need something from ranger- I will say getting quarry is a damn fine ability, but if you don't need other stuff fighter is ok.


Nope. No 3rd party spells.

I think my best strategy for this build is to take 3 levels in fighter, eventually ending up as ranger 10 / fighter 3. Then grab a Sash of Fighter Bonuses +1 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/sash-of-the-war-champion) for a fair price.
The sash lets you move at full speed in heavy armor(with 3 levels in fighter), making the fighter dip more tempting. but even full speed and more dex in armor from 1 level makes this a solid pick

[Firest Kathon]

For context, we're a party of 3 casters and 3 non-casters, so the Freebooter's Bane effect generally benefits half of the party.

The casters benefit as well if they cast a spell that requires a ranged touch attack (see sidebar here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Aiming-a-Spell) and this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9oag)).