Let's play a game. What's your CR?

[Zalabim]

Your pet PC build now has a problem. It's an NPC. Your DM needs its CR. Anyone is welcome to join. Rules are simply to take a full PC build, any level, and determine its CR as an NPC. Standard array for stats. NPC average damage (round down fractions). Pre-fight buff if you've got them. After all, you've only got 3 rounds to prove your worth. With/without buffs if you want to do that extra work.

AKA, this is where I bash around with one of the clunkier parts of the DMG, since the example abilities list is hardly exhaustive and really doesn't consider PC abilities at all.

Helpful information: Explain any fudging you did with numbers or 'close-enough' ability approximations used. For example, Indomitable is not as good as Legendary Resistance, but it's like Legendary Resistance, so I'll count it as half/quarter/whatever as much HP as LR would be counted for.

Quiz Portion: Explain your NPCs tactics, weaknesses, and vulnerabilities that the player would exploit. For example, the Troll is weak to fire and acid and lacks ranged attacks.

Bonus Round: Add/subtract/modify abilities/numbers so that the resulting NPC is CR = PC level and easy enough for a DM to run in an encounter. Reward: You now have a useful stat block for a PC-themed NPC.

Now, let's see some contestants.

Half-Elf Battle Master Fighter 20, AKA totally not a cleric.
Start 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha.
End 20 Str, 14 Dex, 20 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 10 Cha, Resilient Wisdom, Healer.
HP 224 + 25 (second wind) + 30 (indomitable*3, as 1/3 LR)= 279
AC 18 (plate)
Defensive CR = 14.
Greatsword 2d6+5 (13 GWF) * 4 attacks + Action Surge * 2 + 6d12 (39)= 99.6~ damage per round.
+11 to hit.
Offensive CR = 17
Overall CR 15.5, so I'll say 16 since I'm not counting the effect portion of the maneuvers. Replacing a feat for GWM raises Offensive CR to 19.5, overall CR to 16.75, so 17.

Run in and go to town with Action Surge and superiority dice. Use Second Wind after taking damage. Weak at range.

High Elf Abjurer Wizard 20, AKA surprisingly hardy.
Start 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 13 Wis, 10 Cha
End 8 Str, 14 Dex, 20 Con, 20 Int, 13 Wis, 10 Cha
HP 182 + 45 (arcane ward) +6 (Shield each round) (Stoneskin, no calculated effect) = 233
AC 20 (Mage Armor + Shield reaction) +2 (Spell Resistance basically Magic Resistance) = 22
Defensive CR = 13.5
Meteor Swarm + Cone of Cold 8th + Cone of Cold 7th = (140*2+49*2+45*2)/3= 156
DC 19
Offensive CR = 20.5
Overall CR 17. (Should probably look up some more non-conc buffs to edit in. Should be able to improve this.)

Hit as many people as possible with each of its spells. Weak to non-spell saving throws, as from a monk. Greatest fear is probably dispel magic and counterspell, particularly from another abjurer.


Next up from me will be Paladin and Monk, likely in a couple days when I can use a computer again.

[Zalabim]

Okay, time for the next Episode.

Wood Elf Way of Shadow Monk 20, AKA the dark.
Start Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10
End Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 20, Cha 10 Durable (probably not really)
HP 143 (*2 empty body resists nearly all) 286 + (25 Deflect Arrows once[optimistic]) 311
AC 20 (+2 Diamond Soul actually > Magic Resistance) (+2 Empty Body as Superior Invisibility) 24
Defensive CR = 19.5
Damage 1d10+5 (10) * 5 (flurry, reaction attack) = 50
Attack bonus +11 (apparently invisibility and attack riders are unimportant, offensively)
Offensive CR = 9.5
Overall CR 14.5 so 15.

Use Empty Body and Pass Without Trace to sneak up and spring Stunning Strikes on someone until they die/get bored. Retreat and come back after a short rest.

Weak to force damage (though they have to be able to see through invisibility to use Magic Missile and Disintegrate will always fail on top of that), so Warlocks, basically. And Power Word Kill.

Dragonborn Devotion Paladin 20, AKA the light.
Start 16 Str, 10 Dex, 13 Con, 8 Int, 12 Wis, 16 Cha
End 20 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 12 Wis, 20 Cha Resilient (Con)
HP 164 +10 (Aid) +28 (Death Ward) = 202
AC 21 (Plate+Shield+Defensive)
Defensive CR = 11.5
Damage 1d8+1d8+2d4+5 (19) *2 + (26d8)/3 +20 = 97 (Imp. Divine Smite + Elemental Weapon 5th + 6 smites, 5th 4th*2 3rd*2 2nd*1 + Holy Nimbus)
Attack Bonus +18
Offensive CR = 20
Overall CR = 15.75 so 16.

Smite, smite, smite, and smite some more while glowing.

Very weak at ranged combat. Loses a lot of steam if disarmed.

On tomorrow's broadcast I'm thinking Rogue and Barbarian.

[endur]

Updated Fighter Calculations
Changing indomitable to 1/2 as you usually have at least a 50% chance of making a saving throw with bounded accuracy. If you have a lower chance of making a save, you probably don't use indomitable unless you really need to make that save.
Changed healer feat to Great Weapon Master.



Half-Elf Battle Master Fighter 20
Start 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha.
End 20 Str, 14 Dex, 20 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 10 Cha, Resilient Wisdom, Great Weapon Master.
HP 224 + 26 (second wind) + 45 (indomitable*3, as 1/2 LR)= 295
AC 18 (plate)
Defensive CR = 15 +1 (res wisdom) =16

20 attacks, means on average one crit, adding 2d6 plus d12 plus another attack for 2d6 +5 = 4d6+d12+5=25
Greatsword 2d6+5 (13 GWF) * 4 attacks + Action Surge * 2 + 6d12 (42)= 109~ damage per round.
+11 to hit.
Offensive CR = 17

Alternative (-5 to hit, +10 to damage)
20 attacks, means on average one crit, adding 2d6 plus d12 plus another attack for 2d6 +5 = 4d6+d12+5=35
Greatsword 2d6+5 (23 GWF) * 4 attacks + Action Surge * 2 + 6d12 (42)= 178~ damage per round.
+6 to hit.
Offensive CR = 23-2=21
Use GWM -5 to hit, +10 to damage

Summary Offensive CR 21, Defense 16 = overall CR 19

Battle Master maneuvers are meant for groups. Lets try a Champion.

Half-Orc Champion Fighter 20
Start 16 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 10 Cha.
End 20 Str, 10 Dex, 20 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha, Resilient Wisdom, Great Weapon Master, Pole Arm Master
HP 224 + 26 (second wind) + 45 (indomitable*3, as 1/2 LR) + 28 (Relentless Endurance aka Undead fortitude) + 30 (Survivor) = 353
AC 18 (plate) +1 defense = 19
Defensive CR = 19 +1 (res wisdom) =20

20 attacks, means on average three crits, adding 2d10 (12) plus another attack for d10 +5.
Rounds with no crit have a bonus action attack for d4 +5 (8).
Halberd d10+5 (11 GWF) * 4 attacks + Action Surge * 2 + 3 crits (36) + 3 bonus attacks (d10+5) + 1 bonus attack (d4 +5)= 99~ damage per round.
+11 to hit.
Offensive CR = 17

Alternative (-5 to hit, +10 to damage)
20 attacks, means on average three crits, adding 2d10 (12) plus another attack for d10 +15.
Rounds with no crit have a bonus action attack for d4 +15 (18).
Halberd d10+5 (21 GWF) * 4 attacks + Action Surge * 2 +3 crits (36) + 3 bonus attacks (d10+15) + 1 bonus attack (d4 +15)= 179~ damage per round
+6 to hit.
Offensive CR = 23-2=21
Use GWM -5 to hit, +10 to damage

Summary Offensive CR 21, Defense 20 = overall CR 21 or 20 depending on whether you prefer to round up or down

[MaxWilson]

I'm pretty sure my CR is 0.

[Zalabim]

Slight update to Half-Orc Champolarmion.

Second Wind takes one of his bonus actions, and survivor activates only when under half HP. Given his other abilities, I'd give him regen in 2 rounds, rating his HP value at 343, rather than 338 as an actual half. Proficiency in Wisdom saves has no effect on defensive CR, and AC is dead on at 19, so it remains 19 defensively.

Offensively, he can't have five bonus actions in three rounds, so he gets 3 crits but only 2 bonus action attacks. 22 attacks for 21 damage plus the 36 extra damage for crits gives 166 damage per round at +6 to hit for an offensive CR of 20 (19.5). Overall CR of 19 would be my inclination.


Episode 3:
Stout Halfing Thief 20, AKA Sir Overlooked
Start 8 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 12 Cha
End 8 Str, 20 Dex, 20 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 12 Cha, Skulker, Sharpshooter
HP 203 (+14*3 (half of Relentless Endurance's expected value) for Uncanny Dodge) = 245
AC 17 (Studded leader) +4 (Assuming hiding every round) = 21
Defensive CR = 14 or 16.5 if Uncanny Dodge counts for 28 a round)

Damage 1d8+5+10d6 (44) * 4/3 (Thief's Reflexes) = 59
To hit +11 +4 (assuming hiding every round) +1 (Stroke of Luck, considering sharpshooter)= +16
Sharpshooter alternate values = 72 and +11
Offensive CR = 13.5 or 12.5 for sharpshooter
Overall CR = 13.75 or 15 for higher uncanny dodge value used. Probably warrants a 14. Using the barbarian's calculation for bonus critical damage (since ~90% of the damage is added on a crit), and the higher uncanny dodge value brings this to 15.5.

Sneak up and shoot people then sneak away. Repeat. Agoraphobic.

Variant Human Totem Warrior 20, AKA the witch doctor.
Start 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha, Healer
End 24 Str, 14 Dex, 24 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha, Healer
HP 285 (*2, bear resistance) + 56 (Relentless Rage * 2, because DC 15 Con save is still easy) = 626
AC 19 (Bare skin) -2 (Reckless Attacks, based on negative invisibility) = 17
Defensive CR = 25

Damage 1d12+11 *2 (35) + 1d12+11 (17) *1 (pounce) + 4d12*.0975*9/3 (Brutal Critical) = ~60
To hit +13 + 5 (Reckless Attacks, based on blood frenzy) = 18
Offensive CR = 14.5

Alternate entry, Berserker 20, AKA the mad doctor.
Start 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha, Healer
End 24 Str, 14 Dex, 24 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha, Healer
HP 285 + 56 (Relentless Rage *2) = 341
AC 19 (Bare skin) -2 (Reckless Attacks, based on negative invisibility) = 17
Defensive CR = 18

Damage 1d12+11 * 4 (frenzy and retaliation) +4d12*.0975*12/3 (Brutal Critical) = ~80
To hit +13 + 5 (Reckless Attacks, based on blood frenzy) = 18
Offensive CR = 17

Overall CR = 19.75 (round to 20) for Totem, 17.5 (round to 18) for Berserker.

Activate rage and charge, charge, and charge some more. Abysmal ranged options.

[endur]

Proficiency in Wisdom saves has no effect on defensive CR, and AC is dead on at 19, so it remains 19 defensively.

Profiency in wisdom saves means that the PC has proficiency in 3 saves. Proficiency in 3 saves is worth a +2 bonus to AC, which is worth a +1 to defensive CR.

[ZenBear]

Just want to say I approve of this thread. It helps to see the math spelled out and now I have a better idea of how to balance custom NPCs built with class levels.

[Zalabim]

Profiency in wisdom saves means that the PC has proficiency in 3 saves. Proficiency in 3 saves is worth a +2 bonus to AC, which is worth a +1 to defensive CR.

Dammit, I'll have some recalculating to do.

Edit: Glad someone's getting some insight from it.

Entry 1, BM Fighter Defensive CR goes to 15, Overall CR remains 16.

Entry 2 while I'm at it, adding False Life (6th, 31 hp) and Mirror Image (with only a 63% chance a diverted attack would have hit the wizard in the first place, only works on targeted attacks so lower than the average damage for his level, I'm giving this 38 hp) brings Defensive CR to 18, adding Fire Shield (9 damage) brings Offensive CR to 21.5 for an Overall 19.75, so 20.

Entry 3, Shadow Monk's Defensive CR goes to 21.5, Overall CR goes to 15.5 so 16.

Entry 4, Devotion Paladin's Defensive CR goes to 13.5, Overall CR goes to 16.75 so 17.

Entry 5, Thief Rogue's Defensive CR goes to 15 or 17.5, Overall CR goes to 14.25 on the low end or 16 on the high end.

[endur]

Why do you keep using the healer feat?

[Zalabim]

It's a character thing. On the fighter, it was something I recalled from a "cleric with spiritual guardian vs fighter dps" thing, where the fighter turned out more dps, and more healing, and more skills, so I was basing it on that theme. On the barbarian, it's my barbarian I'm playing simply leveled to 20.

Not ready to tackle druid yet, but I should get to ranger and I guess cleric.

[Zalabim]

Ok, Round 4.
Let's start off with some commentary. I've tried to maximize the output CR by tactics without changing build, just using character ideas I'd play. For example, Tough counts better than +2 Constitution, but I'd never normally take Tough. I had a head start at first (I'd mostly done fighter/wizard/paladin/monk already and rogue and barbarian come up often enough), but I haven't done anything with Ranger in over a year, so it's taken me a bit. The Demilich's avoidance (evasion every attribute) is only worth +1 AC, so Evasion would appear to be a non-factor. Ranger is going to have a lot of options for tactics, and I'll find out which one counts for more at the end. Maybe it'll surprise us all.

Variant Human Hunter 20, AKA team rocket
Start Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8, Sharpshooter.
End Str 12, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8, Sharpshooter.

HP 224 + 42-84 (Uncanny Dodge *3) = 266 - 308
AC 17 (Studded Leather) +4 (Vanish, bonus action Hide) = 17-21
Defensive CR = 13.5-15.5 or 15.5-17.5

Offensive tactics
1)Attack 1d8+5 (9.5) *2 (19) + 1d8 (4) (colossus slayer) + 2 (Foe Slayer) = 25 damage +13 to hit
2)Sharpshoot 1d8+15 (19.5) *2 (39) +1d8 (4) + 2 = 45 damage +8 to hit.
3)Conjure Volley 8d8 (36) *2 = 72 DC 16
A)Hunter's Mark 2d6 (7) (uses bonus action)
B)Vanish (hide as bonus action) +4 to hit and +4 to AC
C)Swift Quiver (uses bonus action) 19 damage at +13 to hit, or 39 damage at +8 to hit, +6 damage if not Attacking otherwise.
D)Conjure Animals (8 or 16 Constrictor Snakes 104-208 HP, AC 12, 48-96 damage +4 to hit Constrict)
E)Conjure Animals (8 or 16 Giant Poisonous Snakes 88-176 HP, AC 14, 48-96 damage +6 to hit 80-160 DC 11)
3,2,2+C=95 damage, DC 16, +8 to hit = Offensive CR 15 overall 14.25-15.25
3,1,1+C=61.6~, DC 16, +13 to hit = Offensive CR 12 (discard)
3,3,2+B+E8=191, 48 at DC 16(25%), 15 at +12 to hit(7.8%), 128 at +6 to hit(67%) = Off CR 23 -2(25%)+.5(7.8%)-2.5(67%)= Offensive CR 20.864 Overall CR 18.182 or 19.182. Maybe?
3,2,2+B+E16=310, 24 at DC 16(7.7%), 30 at +12 to hit(9.6%), 256 at +6 to hit(82.5%) = 30 -3.5(7.7%) -1(9.6%) -4(82.5%)=Offensive CR 26.3345 Overall CR 20.9 or 21.9
Well, that was probably predictable at this point of the game.

Overall CR 20 if I use the snake's poison DC instead of to hit bonus, but that's not really descriptive of how they deal their damage.

Alternate calculation: Ranger is CR 13 or 14 accompanied by 8 CR 1/4, or a CR 12 or 13 accompanied by 16 CR 1/4 for an overall encounter XP value ranging from 10400*2.5 to 11900*2.5 or 9200*4 to 10800*4 so 26000 to 43200, which in reverse makes this an encounter with a single creature of CR 20 through CR 22 or so.

Stalk a party then summon 16 giant snakes into their midst and snipe. Volley or summon round two when the snakes are dealt with. Or roam the wilds with a pack of snakes in tow, Volley as an opener and send in the snakes and snipe. Either all poisonous or a mix of poison and constrictor. Weak to explosions, weaker against poison resist/immunity. Team rocket is blasting off again.

I think I know what tactics the Druid is going to use. Next up is a tempest cleric though.

[jkat718]

While it's fun to look at really high-level builds, most DMs are going to be looking for low-level PCs to make into NPCs, so they can use the "rival party of adventurers" trope, or so they can have their major NPCs take a handful of class levels. I can't think of too many situations where I'd need a level 20 Ranger, except maybe as the commander of a Druid Circle's army? Let's take a look at low- to mid-level PCs, and see if we can get that CR-level equivalence. :smallsmile:

[Zalabim]

I have a request for something useful. I'm not sure you've seen the tags on this thread, but here goes.

Level 10 Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric, aka your bbeg.

Start 12 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Con, 13 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha
End 12 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Con, 13 Int, 20 Wis, 8 Cha

HP 93 + 14 (Death Ward 4th) 10-15 (Aid 3rd or 4th) = 117-122
AC 20 (Plate armor + Shield)
Defensive CR = 7

Options:
(Spirit Guardians 3d8+1/lvl 5d8 5th) (Destructive Wave 10d6 5th) (Call Lightning 3d10+1/lvl/strm 6d10 5th) (Spiritual Weapon 2d8+5 4th) (Insect Plague 4d10 5th) (Ice Storm 2d8+4d6 4th) (Shatter 3d8+1/lvl 5d8 4th) (Flame Strike 8d6) (Sacred Flame 2d8) DC 17

(60+60+70+42)/3=77.3+9 (Wrath of the Storm) Off CR 12.5
Call Lightning 5th -> Destructive Wave 5th + Spiritual Weapon 4th. Outdoors during a storm. Overall CR 9.75, so 10.
Maximize Call Lightning twice or Shatter if party is clumped enough. More dangerous if party gets clumped up by the knockback on lightning damage, including the reaction to being hit in melee. Save this for a stormy night. The up front 60 damage can be a real shock to the party wizard. If you're really crafty, you could ready the "aim a lightning bolt" action to double shock someone, or line up a push to a double hit.

(67.5+42+9+95+80)/3=97.83~+9 (Wrath of the Storm) Off CR 16
Spirit Guardians (or Insect Plague) 5th -> Spiritual Weapon 4th + Sacred Flame -> Destructive Wave 5th -> Shatter 4th. Inside a sanctum or lair. Overall CR 11.5 so 12. Maximize the Thunder damage on Destructive Wave or Shatter, depending on range to party. Spirit Guardians if they'll close in, or Insect Plague if there's a chokepoint they have to pass, before the party can attack. Depending on party spacing, Shatter is more important than Spiritual Weapon.

This is to say nothing of what the sanctuary of a 10th level cleric with resources is going to look like with access to glyph of warding and divine intervention, and the option to actually cast Sanctuary and try to retreat and fight another day if things turn south.

[Talamare]

Lv7 OoA Half Elf Paladin
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16

60 HP, AC 23 (Plate, Shield, Defense, Faith)
Saves - 6/3/5/2/7/9
Resistance - Spell Damage
Immunity - Disease
Divine Smite - All attacks that hit deal an additional 2d8 radiant damage
Dark Vision - 60ft

Innate Spellcasting
1/day - Lay on Hands (action) Heal self for 35 HP
3/day - Misty Step

Multiattack - 2 Longsword attacks
Longsword - +6 1d8+3 damage

I'm not sure what type of CR to give him, and it doesn't seem he has very many weakness.
He's pretty resistant against all spells, both CC based spells and damage spells. His AC is high enough to shrug off most physical attacks, and he has Misty Step to chase down people who are far away.

Maybe CR8? Is there some kind of calculator?

[jkat718]

Is there some kind of calculator?

There's an entire section of the DMG dedicated to calculating a creature's CR. I'm AFB, or I'd give you a page reference.

[Talamare]

There's an entire section of the DMG dedicated to calculating a creature's CR. I'm AFB, or I'd give you a page reference.

I found it, thanks ^^

Okay, 60 HP is CR 1/2, but Spell Damage Resistance increases that to an effective 90, making him CR2
3 Really high saves is effectively +2 AC
Innate Spellcasting is I guess +1 CR
"23" AC, is 10 AC above CR2 recommendation, so +4 CR

So defensively - CR7?
offensively...
He deals as much damage per round apparently as a CR1 monster, but is more accurate making him effectively CR3
So, this guy is effectively CR5 when averaged together?

I'm done with this, this wasn't very fun

[Zalabim]

I'm done with this, this wasn't very fun

Yeah. It doesn't really grow on you, but it's a way for me to pass the time.


I think I'd give that paladin CR 7 overall, based on effectively proficiency to all saves (Effective +4 AC, or +2 categories), 23(13+10, so +5 category) AC, 60*1.5 HP for resists for Defensive CR 9 (2 for HP, +7 for high defenses), and 33 damage per round (6d8+6 totaled) at +6 to hit for an Offensive CR 5.

[Laserlight]

This is for a named NPC villain:
(nagual / yee naaldlooshii witch)
AC 14 (17 with Mage Armor) HP 75
Speed 50ft
STR +2 DEX +4 CON +3 INT +1 WIS -2 CHA +2
Shapechanger: can use its action to polymorph into another creature. Anything it is carrying or wearing isn't transformed
Regeneration 10 at start of turn, unless it took fire or radiant damage this turn
Mimic: can mimic human voices
Innate spells: Spider Climb
Curse: As an action, you shoot a bone bead at a creature, and that creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become cursed for the duration of the spell. When you cast this spell, choose the nature of the curse from the following options: • A. Choose one ability score. While cursed, the target has disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws made with that ability score; B. While cursed, the target has disadvantage on attack rolls against you. Duration is 8 hours or until the victim finds the bead and cuts it out.
Warlock: spell save DC14, +6 to hit with spell attacks, +6 with melee attacks
4 cantrips and 10 spells known, 2x 5th level slots
5 invocations: Mask of many faces (disguise), Devil's Sight (120ft in any darkness), whispers of the grave (speak with dead), Otherworldly Leap (jump) , Armor of shadows (mage armor)

DCR based on HP and AC is 1. Resist to nonmagic weapons doubles his HP (none of the party have magic weapons), so that makes 150hp which is CR6. Regeneration 10 adds 30 or 60, depending on whether that also gets multiplied for Resist, which makes his DCR either 8 or 10.

For Offense, I'm thinking that if he uses his two 5th slots on Blight and on the third turn does a cantrip, that's 36+36+11 = 83 / 3 = 27 dpr over three rounds. That puts him at OCR 4.

Average of DCR8 or 10 + OCR4 = 6 or 7.

That sound right?