Does a cleric need CHA in 5e?

[Klorox]

I remember it being linked to some powers in 3e. Is it important for a cleric in 5e?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I remember it being linked to some powers in 3e. Is it important for a cleric in 5e?

Not at all.

Edit
You may want cha, but you don't need cha.

With heavy armor a cleric can safely dump: dex, int, and cha.

With light armor a cleric can safely dump str, int, and cha.

Medium armor: cleric can safely dump str, int, and cha. Dex can be set at 14.

Hell, I've seen Wis 8 builds for clerics. They were typically war clerics but they got the job done you know.

[Lollerabe]

From a mechanical perspective ? Not at all. From a rp perspective ? Well being a somewhat 'chosen' of a deity could lead one to believe that you would spread the 'gospel' thus securing more followers to your deity, and hopefully pleasing said deity by doing so, in which case yes charisma would be important. Unless of course you just intimidate them into religious submission {Scrubbed}

[Pex]

From a mechanical perspective ? Not at all. From a rp perspective ? Well being a somewhat 'chosen' of a deity could lead one to believe that you would spread the 'gospel' thus securing more followers to your deity, and hopefully pleasing said deity by doing so, in which case yes charisma would be important. Unless of course you just intimidate them into religious submission (********)

We could have done without the bashing to understand your point.

[Lollerabe]

Pardon, guess I'm used to such jokes being ok. My apologies

[SpawnOfMorbo]

From a mechanical perspective ? Not at all. From a rp perspective ? Well being a somewhat 'chosen' of a deity could lead one to believe that you would spread the 'gospel' thus securing more followers to your deity, and hopefully pleasing said deity by doing so, in which case yes charisma would be important. Unless of course you just intimidate them into religious submission {Scrubbed}

I don't think clerics are really the ones that talk with NPCs about converting. Clerics are more of the "I'll show you why" whereas NPC priests would push the "yo, join us" type. Clerics are typically traveling, under a lot of stress, and have high profile business to take care of...

Clerics are the upper management of the religion. Yeah they may get seen or talked to but they aren't the face. Much like how the GM of a sports team can be seen and heard but people typically hear from the coach more often and will base a lot of opinions on the team's organization side on how well the coach is received (and how well the players are doing based on their coach).

[Lollerabe]

All excellent points, the church would properly have 'faces' they deploy themselves. I for one just love converting people and spreading the gospel of my church when I'm playing a cleric, if I can start a holy war/crusade on another religion or race - even better, so I'm pretty biased. But you are right, and as mentioned from a mech point Cha is a dumpstat on clerics

[CantigThimble]

It's sometimes nice to have good charisma since clerics are often the least murderhobo of the party and therefore should probably be doing the talking, but not mechanically necessary at all. Although this might just be my experience as I'm the least murderhobo player and love playing clerics. One of my players has a Tiefling Pirate War Cleric, which is kinda the essence of murderhobo.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

All excellent points, the church would properly have 'faces' they deploy themselves. I for one just love converting people and spreading the gospel of my church when I'm playing a cleric, if I can start a holy war/crusade on another religion or race - even better, so I'm pretty biased. But you are right, and as mentioned from a mech point Cha is a dumpstat on clerics

I think in most D&D settings gods that hate themselves are pretty much on a never ending death battle with each other (at least their followers) and any other religion or races would be off the table.

Drow and Elf
Elf and Orc

Human and Orc
Human and goblin

Humans attacking elves, in the name of a deity will only work if the deity doesn't like Corellon or one of the other elves deities... Your deity can just take away your spells until you stop. Deities talk to their followers in D&D, it isn't like you can just do whatever you want and say your deity is cool with it.

[JellyPooga]

Clerics are the upper management of the religion.

I've always considered Clerics to be the militant arm of their respective church; that's why they have weapon and armour training, are granted all those combat-oriented spells and so forth. "Upper management" is covered by NPC acolytes, just as the "recruitment" branch is covered by high-Cha NPC's.

Charisma for the guys the church sends out to bash heads is not (in this edition) a requirement. If anything, there's even an argument for saying Clerics shouldn't have high-Cha as a rule (not saying I agree with it, per se, just that the argument exists).

[Sir cryosin]

Pardon, guess I'm used to such jokes being ok. My apologies

No don't apologize it you have the rights to say and think what you want.

[Rhaegar]

No don't apologize it you have the rights to say and think what you want.

You have the right to say and think what you want, and the forum moderators have the right to ban people from the forums. From what I understand of the rules of the forums making disparaging remarks about peoples real world religion can result in a rules infraction, where to many infractions can result in forum bans.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I've always considered Clerics to be the militant arm of their respective church; that's why they have weapon and armour training, are granted all those combat-oriented spells and so forth. "Upper management" is covered by NPC acolytes, just as the "recruitment" branch is covered by high-Cha NPC's.

Charisma for the guys the church sends out to bash heads is not (in this edition) a requirement. If anything, there's even an argument for saying Clerics shouldn't have high-Cha as a rule (not saying I agree with it, per se, just that the argument exists).

Clerics aren't the general foot soldiers of the church though. You wouldn't just send them out to battle, even the lowest level of Clerics are better served as a support type more so than direct assault.

Paladins and War Clerics I could see in the front lines, but the other clerics? Nah.

Within the mortal church? Yeah NPCs (acolytes, x-clerics, and whomever else) will be the leaders but when it comes to talking directly with the deity and getting stuff done? The cleric doesn't have to listen to them as long as they are doing the deity's work the mortal men and women can't do much about it.

What are they going to say? Lord disapproves? How about we call Kord up and ask him? How is my cleric still gaining Kord specific spells (some spells change based on deity).

Clerics really only need to answer to the one in charge since their powers come from that deity. Follow that deity and try to stay an alignment and you are golden. If the church is telling you to do XYZ which is against the deity ideology... They are the ones that are wrong not you. This thought process is flawed in the real world but works nicely in a setting like D&D as you can prove it.

So they really only listen to the guy who owns/runs the company so I would call that upper management. Level and setting may change this, but the base cleric ideology kinda makes them upper management.

[KorvinStarmast]

This depends upon the kind of campaign/setting/world your DM is running, and how much RP is to your taste. If you are dungeon crawling, you might not need as much as if your adventuring team does a lot of interacting with people and personalities and organizations in the game world.

A cleric does a variety of things in the world while serving a given deity. Most religious organizations prefer to grow, so any Cleric will earn internal reputation/favors/respect from his religion for bringing new people into the faith/religion/belief system.

Now, if all of your adventuring is mechanical, there will still be the question about "what happens later in the campaign?" As you get to higher levels, what do you do? Do you build nice shrine the Pelor? To Odin? Once built, who runs it for you? Who comes to worship?

If, for the duration of the campaign, levels 1-20, or 1-12 or 1-8, whatever, your Charisma stinks to the moon and you don't do anything to attract people to the religion/deity by the example you set, and the interactions you have with whomever you meet along the way, your building a shrine won't attract many visitors, if any at all. Maybe people will come if you and your party have massive rep and renown for something else. But in that case, it most likely falls under "tourist attraction" more than "helps the followers of X deity" in the long run.

Short answer: Charisma is not a great dump stat for a cleric unless your vision of a cleric is "a spell caster who can hit things in the head."

Clerics by the nature of their profession are people persons.

I'd suggest no less than 10-11, and preferably 12 (to get a +1 here and there) since how good a rep of your deity gets through you can inform your success as a cleric. (That, and laying the lumber on various undead ...).

What does proficiency on Cha saves do for you? Some of the spells it will help you resist:

Bane
Banishment
Dispel Evil and Good
Divine Word
Feeblemind
Forcecage
Hallow(Unhallow?)
Magic Jar
Planar Shift
Symbol of Hopelessness
Zone of Truth

[Klorox]

I agree with many points saying a cleric should not dump CHA.

But, do you choose a doctor based on how good he is or how nice he is to you?

I work in the medical field, and I've told many patients "yeah, your doctor is a ****, but if I needed surgery, I'd trust his hands on me."

[KorvinStarmast]

I agree with many points saying a cleric should not dump CHA.

But, do you choose a doctor based on how good he is or how nice he is to you?

I work in the medical field, and I've told many patients "yeah, your doctor is a ****, but if I needed surgery, I'd trust his hands on me." That's the "purely mechanical approach" and is quite narrow. FWIW, I seem to recall that "bedside manner" is something doctors who are good are also good at: charisma at work for you. There's more to being a doctor that scalpel and suture.

But my point was quite different on why Cha is needed for the role beyond hacking and slashing in the local ruins: the cleric isn't just serving his patients, (the party) he's serving a large organization that needs his persuasion skills to keep the organization growing. If your table won't be RPing at that level, you may be just as well to take the narrow / mechanical PoV. It's a matter of your tastes as a player, and the tastes of your group.

Best wishes in any case. Clerics can be a lot of fun to play.

[JellyPooga]

Clerics aren't the general foot soldiers of the church though.

So they really only listen to the guy who owns/runs the company

Clerics by the nature of their profession are people persons.

But, do you choose a doctor based on how good he is or how nice he is to you?

Valid points all and a nice demonstration of how any Class can be viewed in many different ways, let alone just Clerics!

I think the one thing we can all agree on, though, is that Clerics no longer have a mechanical incentive to have a high Charisma, per se. None of their Class Features trigger off of it, but depending on the type and style of Cleric you want to play, Charisma requirements will vary.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the one thing we can all agree on, though, is that Clerics no longer have a mechanical incentive to have a high Charisma, per se. None of their Class Features trigger off of it, but depending on the type and style of Cleric you want to play, Charisma requirements will vary. They are proficient in Cha saves. That's about all of the mechanical benefit Cha gives to a Cleric. The recommended Skill of Persuasion does work off of Charisma, but it's not a default skill.


Proficiencies
Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Wisdom, Charisma
Skills: Choose two from History, Insight, Medicine, Persuasion, and Religion

[PoeticDwarf]

Not at all.

Edit
You may want cha, but you don't need cha.

With heavy armor a cleric can safely dump: dex, int, and cha.

With light armor a cleric can safely dump str, int, and cha.

Medium armor: cleric can safely dump str, int, and cha. Dex can be set at 14.

Hell, I've seen Wis 8 builds for clerics. They were typically war clerics but they got the job done you know.

Well without multiclassing and bad spells, they would only work pretty low level. A valor bard would outrule this one in almost every situation, not only a valor bard. For the other parts I agree. Clerics never need INT and CHA really

[JellyPooga]

They are proficient in Cha saves.

...which is almost an argument against a high Charisma. If you're going for an all-rounder build, then you can safely dump Charisma as a Cleric and still have a decent (i.e. positive) Charisma Save. :smallwink: