[PF] Kitsune Disguise Checks

[DonLouigi]

Avete,

the Kitsune race have a class feature called Shape Change:


Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores and can remain in this form indefinitely.
source: d20pfsrd article on Kitsune (I'm sorry, I am too new to directly hotlink)
(Emphasis mine)

The alter self spell is a polymorph spell, and there it is stated:


a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
Source: d20pfsrd article on transmutation magic
(Again, emphasis mine)

Now, as the Shapechange ability functions like an "Alter Self" spell in every respect not stated differently, and as the two specific +10 boni for disguise are of different type (racial and untyped respectively), does that mean, that a normal Kitsune has a +20 Disguise modifier to appear human, before considering any Ability mods, Skill ranks etc.?

And if not, then why not?

[SangoProduction]

One argument is that it's an expanded version of Alter Self, and so it's a stacking bonus to +20 if you want to look like a human. Another is that the bonus is being changed so it only works if you want to look like a human.

Considering the Kitsune myth only referring to being able to appear as a human, and not as other demons/spirits/whatever else you translate them as, and the wording, I'm more inclined towards the latter. Also considering that it can only be for one other specific human form as well...

That said, since it *is* just one other specific human form and it's even of the same sex, then there aren't many balance problems for letting it stack, if you want to.

[DonLouigi]

Well, the problem is, that it does make a difference, albeit in this specific circumstance, since a +10 Bonus is kind of a huge deal. Let's say, my lvl 1 Kitsune has a reasonable charisma score of 14 (+2), a class, which has disguise as a class skill and 1 rank in it, meaning an overall +6 disguise modifier. Now, if the total bonus for the change shape is 10, than I would make this check (to appear human) with a +16 modifier, which, depending on my roll, people with a reasonable perception modifier could reasonably crack. Now, if the total bonus I get from shape change is 20, than my disguise check would have a +26 modifer which would take a hell of a bad roll on my part and a hell of a good roll AND modifier on the part of my opponent to crack.
It could mean the difference between being reasonably safe in my human disguise and constant worrying of being found out.

[Crake]

Well, the problem is, that it does make a difference, albeit in this specific circumstance, since a +10 Bonus is kind of a huge deal. Let's say, my lvl 1 Kitsune has a reasonable charisma score of 14 (+2), a class, which has disguise as a class skill and 1 rank in it, meaning an overall +6 disguise modifier. Now, if the total bonus for the change shape is 10, than I would make this check (to appear human) with a +16 modifier, which, depending on my roll, people with a reasonable perception modifier could reasonably crack. Now, if the total bonus I get from shape change is 20, than my disguise check would have a +26 modifer which would take a hell of a bad roll on my part and a hell of a good roll AND modifier on the part of my opponent to crack.
It could mean the difference between being reasonably safe in my human disguise and constant worrying of being found out.

well, considering you can take 10 on the disguise check before entering a human community, that would mean you'd get a total of 26 on the check, meaning they'd need at least +6 and a natural 20 to see through it, but even then, if they "see through" the disguise, it's not like they're gonna be suddenly "oh it's a kitsune!" After all it's a real physical change, so at worst there will be something a little not quite right about your disguise but nothing incriminating. And realistically unless they're specifically inspecting you for disguises they would be recieving the -5 penalty for being distracted, since they're likely doing something else, so that minimum +6 modifier to perception suddenly jumps to +11 for random passerbys

[Geddy2112]

They 100% do stack. The kitsune +10 racial bonus is a second bonus, and the polymorph spell gives an untyped +10 bonus.

Lets say it did not, a +16 at level one is incredibly solid. Considering most passerby's and similar people won't be paying too much attention to you. The disguise skill is not frequently checked against, and it says for guards and other people who would be suspicious of you, they generally take a 10 to oppose it. Unless you are going into a community wary of shapeshifters or kitsune in particular, most people won't pay you any attention. Even if they were, a perception check is probably not the way they will go about looking for them.

It will be rare you find a guard with more than a +5 in perception, so that is a 15, against your 26, which is actually a 36. That is beyond the realm of non casting mortals to even attempt to beat.

[SangoProduction]

They 100% do stack. The kitsune +10 racial bonus is a second bonus, and the polymorph spell gives an untyped +10 bonus.

Lets say it did not, a +16 at level one is incredibly solid. Considering most passerby's and similar people won't be paying too much attention to you. The disguise skill is not frequently checked against, and it says for guards and other people who would be suspicious of you, they generally take a 10 to oppose it. Unless you are going into a community wary of shapeshifters or kitsune in particular, most people won't pay you any attention. Even if they were, a perception check is probably not the way they will go about looking for them.

It will be rare you find a guard with more than a +5 in perception, so that is a 15, against your 26, which is actually a 36. That is beyond the realm of non casting mortals to even attempt to beat.

They *are* different bonuses. But it's not specified if it's changing the type of the existing bonus, or if it's an additional bonus.

That said, as I said, it's really not going to break the game to let them have an additional +10, as it's an extremely limited shape shift and is basically just a second persona. Hello mister Hyde.

[DonLouigi]

Thanks for the replies and sorry for not posting. I believe my problem is solved, as it is not as heavy an impact as I originally thought it was, I will, until I get definitive answer, stick with a mere +10 Bonus. But it was good to see that there does indeed exist room for interpretation.