Handling PC Death

[Tranquil_Knight]

Long story short a PC character Died. We are 3 sessions in now and this will be his 3rd character. His 1st character he abandoned because of group dynamics (a paladin dwarf of torag with 2 orcs and a drow) and this character died really just due to some bad luck (retreated after being put down to one hp but hit a trap).
I am just not sure how to handle it. He has been to all the sessions and participated in all the extras (helping me with rules and participating in the riddles and puzzles) but I was going to have him start at the base level. He has expressed that it is kind of a put off of the game having to already make another character and now being punished by xp for losing a character he had put a lot of time and background into. Just not sure how I should handle it. Are there rules for starting a new character after a PC death? Do you think its fair for him to start at base level xp even though he hasn't missed anything or should he be the same as his original character would have been (the rest of the group is about to level up)? How would/have you handled this in your groups?

[ComaVision]

KILL THEM ALL

Don't have him start at level 1, he's only going to keep getting killed, eventually get discouraged, and stop playing entirely. In my games, I have new characters (either from death or a new player) start at the same level as the lowest level member of the party (with appropriate wealth-by-level). That way, they're right back to contributing.

[Malimar]

My game's house rule is that if your character dies (or retires, or becomes an NPC, or otherwise is removed from play), you may make a new character at 75% of the XP of your previous character, with WBL appropriate to the new character's level. This usually winds up being a level or so behind, depending on your exact numbers, so it's roughly equivalent to the level loss from raise dead. If you're using the regular XP rules, catching up is possible (if you're not using the XP rules, you should add some way to catch up eventually).

[Red Fel]

Don't have him start at level 1, he's only going to keep getting killed, eventually get discouraged, and stop playing entirely. In my games, I have new characters (either from death or a new player) start at the same level as the lowest level member of the party (with appropriate wealth-by-level). That way, they're right back to contributing.

This.

It's one thing to embrace PC death. It happens. It's another thing to punish it. Having somebody start a brand new character at level 1 when the rest of the party is up at level more-than-1 is a punishment, because the new character cannot contribute in any meaningful way. He's a burden, and there is no rational reason for the rest of the party to keep Scrappy Doo around.

Now, if you have a player who repeatedly cycles out characters, then it would be understandable. Starting him at a level lower, or limiting his options, would be slightly more understandable. But even then, starting someone at level 1 is just cruel. It's saying, "Yeah, you can sit here and hang out with us, but don't bother doing anything." And this isn't even that - he lost his first character because of party dynamics, and his second to bad luck. Don't punish him for that.

[Albions_Angel]

Ok, I can only speak for my group, but we dont punish for new character creation. If you miss a few sessions and fall behind in XP, well thats your issue, but if you die, and your party members dont (or cant) bring you back some how (with all the penalties that involves), then you roll a new char at the average party level.

Players die. It happens. You could say its DESIGNED for it to happen. Dont punish him for a game mechanic.

That said, how are you doing death. My group found the "by the book" method too RNG. So we instigated a simple system. You are staggered at 0 (if you do more than a single move, you bleed 1hp). You fall unconscious (and bleed freely 1hp a round until stabilized) at your negative CON bonus. You die at negative CON.

It gave a nice buffer.

What I would do. Speak to the player. Ask them to be honest, does their character (not the player) want to come back. Is it in their nature. If so, even if the body is lost, you can set up some system where the other players get back to base camp, and go through his personal belongings, and find an "In Case Of Death" letter, containing some hair and a letter asking to be brought back. Maybe with a family jewel that, shock, nearly covers the cost of a resurrection or a reincarnation, or whatever. Make it a quest to bring them back. In doing so, let the player know that unless the party has a LOT of money, they will be coming back at a reduced level, or as a different race/gender as per the spell rules.

If the player says the character would prefer to move on, help them build a character, at current party level, that fills some voids, or fits their play style. Then find a reason to have this guy enter the group. Make him a quest giver. A kings guard with a secret mission or something.

[Tranquil_Knight]

Don't have him start at level 1, he's only going to keep getting killed, eventually get discouraged, and stop playing entirely. In my games, I have new characters (either from death or a new player) start at the same level as the lowest level member of the party (with appropriate wealth-by-level). That way, they're right back to contributing.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn't having him start at level 1 but just the base xp, in this case 5000 xp for base lvl 3, but the rest of the group is just under level 4.


Ok, I can only speak for my group, but we dont punish for new character creation. If you miss a few sessions and fall behind in XP, well thats your issue, but if you die, and your party members dont (or cant) bring you back some how (with all the penalties that involves), then you roll a new char at the average party level.

Players die. It happens. You could say its DESIGNED for it to happen. Dont punish him for a game mechanic.

That said, how are you doing death. My group found the "by the book" method too RNG. So we instigated a simple system. You are staggered at 0 (if you do more than a single move, you bleed 1hp). You fall unconscious (and bleed freely 1hp a round until stabilized) at your negative CON bonus. You die at negative CON.

It gave a nice buffer.

What I would do. Speak to the player. Ask them to be honest, does their character (not the player) want to come back. Is it in their nature. If so, even if the body is lost, you can set up some system where the other players get back to base camp, and go through his personal belongings, and find an "In Case Of Death" letter, containing some hair and a letter asking to be brought back. Maybe with a family jewel that, shock, nearly covers the cost of a resurrection or a reincarnation, or whatever. Make it a quest to bring them back. In doing so, let the player know that unless the party has a LOT of money, they will be coming back at a reduced level, or as a different race/gender as per the spell rules.

If the player says the character would prefer to move on, help them build a character, at current party level, that fills some voids, or fits their play style. Then find a reason to have this guy enter the group. Make him a quest giver. A kings guard with a secret mission or something.

I have home ruled that there is no way to bring PC's back to life, essentially even undead are just meat puppets brought back by magic, nothing of the soul or power is returned. Also we do the same rules for Pc death, negative con. He was at 1 hp and fell on a spike trap, hit by 4 spikes and crit by 2 of them, just really unlucky.

[Tranquil_Knight]

So the general consensus is then if a player dies they should be able to create a new character, rules appropriate, at the same or near the same xp as before. I'll decide on which to use, the 75%, lowest character, or at their previous characters total. It makes sense to not punish the player if they are there for every session and just have people lose xp if they miss, not for playing out their character. Thanks everyone.

[ComaVision]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn't having him start at level 1 but just the base xp, in this case 5000 xp for base lvl 3, but the rest of the group is just under level 4.


Pathfinder medium progression?

In that case, I'd probably do the same as you're proposing-- start him at level 3. You could use the suggestion from Malimar that his new character has 75% of the experience of his former character so he catches up quicker but I think you're in the realm of reasonable either way.

[dascarletm]

I keep all my characters at the same level of XP. (I use pathfinder so XP cost isn't a problem). The character dying is "punishment" enough. Also, I don't need to punish anyone for anything. This is a game, we're here to have fun. It's not for me to dole out rewards and punishment... well, to the players at least.

[Seto]

The intent of the "lose a level when you're raised" rule is for players to consider death an actual setback, and inspire caution.
The intent of the "new character starts at party level minus one" (in 3.5) is the same as above, plus encouraging party continuity.

Does your game need to emphasize either ? And if you're ready to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis, does this individual player need this emphasis ? (Pretty clearly he doesn't). If not, then just have him come back with the same XP he had.

In my game, I've done away with XP entirely, and characters level at story-appropriate points. All of them together, even those whose players couldn't make it to the session. (Not getting to play is bad enough, we don't need punishment on top of that)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn't having him start at level 1 but just the base xp, in this case 5000 xp for base lvl 3, but the rest of the group is just under level 4.
So, essentially, making him start at the base 5000xp is making him start a level lower?

Like Seto, I generally don't use exp at all, but I'd say let him come back at the same xp and WBL total as the party average. Losing a character you liked (and all their in-game relationships and rewards) is punishment enough, especially if the death was such a random chance thing.

[Segev]

If you're starting him at bottom-of-3 when the party is not-quite-4, the only real issue is that he's feeling punished. Is there a reason he can't just come in at the level of the party, in this specific case?

[Crake]

I find, if you're running pathfinder, that it's best to run group xp, rather than individual xp. Pathfinder has no method for xp loss (raise dead doesn't actually make you lose a level, just give you a permanent negative level that can be fixed with some mid level magic) and as such also has fixed xp rewards, with no means for players to catch up. The system was changed from 3.5 so that players will always have equal xp at all times, so reducing his xp will permanently leave him behind the party with no means to catch up except some kind of solo play, which will likely leave the other players annoyed at not being able to play.

[Toilet Cobra]

I understand your position... it feels weird and a bit hollow to have a character come back with the exact same EXP as the departing character. Given that your campaign emphasizes permanent death, though, I think you should consider being a little more lenient.

I would split the difference: have him come in halfway between the start of the level and his last character's exp total. If that fraction won't work, find one that everybody can be happy with and of course be sure to apply it to everyone equally.

Edit: As a side note, I also run Pathfinder and nobody really has an issue with XP being different between players. Some players got bonus rewards for exceptional play, some lost XP for dying and returning... it makes each character's personal accomplishments and failures feel a bit more significant. This may not be what Paizo intended but it works for us. Just be consistent!

[Andezzar]

I understand your position... it feels weird and a bit hollow to have a character come back with the exact same EXP as the departing character. Given that your campaign emphasizes permanent death, though, I think you should consider being a little more lenient.
I disagree. The new PC (generally) has no connection to the one that died. Would the rest of the group try to find someone at least as powerful as the PC that died, or would they look for someone weaker? It makes no sense that if the old team was not strong enough to come through the challenges unscathed that they would replace the fallen member with someone even weaker.
In story it would even make sense that they would try to find someone even more experienced than the casualty, but that probably wouldn't please the other players, because it sounds like rewarding the player of the character that died.

[Nibbens]

My guys play PF, but back when we didn't our houserule was if you croaked in game, your next player comes back at the same level and Xp as everyone else. (oh! and by the way, if a player missed a session he got the same XP that everyone else did. Why, because missing the session was punishment enough.)

I feel that the penalty for a players death should be that the player died. Period. He already has to make a whole different character - and lets face it, how many of us make our first character with the intention of throwing them away? We don't. Most of us expect us to bring that sucker from 1-20 and have an epic adventure and become awesome!

He had a great backstory, he had investment and now it's gone. He's got to do it all over again - and this is the second time he's had to remake that awesome story.

In my opinion, in game character death is it's own penalty, don't make him suffer even more by docking him XP. Let him join the group back at the same XP amount of everyone else.

[Red Fel]

I feel that the penalty for a players death should be that the player died.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/593/peopledie.jpg

[Andezzar]

I feel that the penalty for a players death should be that the player died. Period. He already has to make a whole different character I really hope you haven't had a player die during one of your gaming sessions. Also a player who died won't make any new characters, at least not at your table.

[dascarletm]

I really hope you haven't had a player die during one of your gaming sessions. Also a player who died won't make any new characters, at least not at your table.

That's what the Ouija board is for.

I would say if it is the player dying you should definitely punish them. How rude to die in the middle of a campaign I worked so hard on! Jerks!

[icefractal]

I find, if you're running pathfinder, that it's best to run group xp, rather than individual xp. Pathfinder has no method for xp loss (raise dead doesn't actually make you lose a level, just give you a permanent negative level that can be fixed with some mid level magic) and as such also has fixed xp rewards, with no means for players to catch up. The system was changed from 3.5 so that players will always have equal xp at all times, so reducing his xp will permanently leave him behind the party with no means to catch up except some kind of solo play, which will likely leave the other players annoyed at not being able to play.This. Pathfinder doesn't have any method to catch up, so different amounts of XP just don't work well. If you want to simulate the "weaker for a while until catching up" thing, then I'd say same XP total but has a negative level for 1-2 sessions.

In this case, since you got rid of Raise Dead & co, this isn't even a matter of "player bringing in a new character because it's easier", this is something he had no choice about. So forget about any penalty entirely.

[Nibbens]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/593/peopledie.jpg


I really hope you haven't had a player die during one of your gaming sessions. Also a player who died won't make any new characters, at least not at your table.


That's what the Ouija board is for.

I would say if it is the player dying you should definitely punish them. How rude to die in the middle of a campaign I worked so hard on! Jerks!

Welp... What can I say. This is the reason why I log onto the forums daily. lol.

Of course I meant PC.... or did I? :smallbiggrin:

And of course, dascarletm, I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly. Even if I don't have a heart left!

[Sacrieur]

I make them start at Average Party Exp with WBL.