Multiclassing Dilemma: 11th level from paladin or 10th level from Bard?

[Arkhios]

I've been trying to measure this on my own, whether I should take 11th level from Paladin or 10th level from Bard, once my character hits appropriate level. I'm trying to figure out which option would be the most beneficial in the end, but frankly, I can't be arsed with theorycrafting the math that much, and I'm sure there are those of you who might do that with pleasure :smalltongue:

11th level in paladin would mean:
Improved Divine Smite (melee weapon deals +1d8 radiant damage with each hit, infinitely)

10th level in bard would mean:
Bardic Inspiration 1d10
Expertise in yet another two skills
Magical Secrets (two spells from any class, up to 5th level)

Which of the two levels weigh more on the scale, eventually?

A side Question: If I chose to take the bard route, can I replace spells I've gained through Magical Secrets, once I get spell slots of higher levels? For example, if I took 11th level in bard (in this case I would leave paladin at 9th level, of course), could I replace one of the Magical Secrets for a 6th level spell from any class?

[OldTrees1]

What is your basic attack damage as of now? +1d8 might be as much as a 50% increase.

On the other hand Expertise is a nice upgrade to 2 skills. How valuable this is to you is highly subjective and dependent on which skills you are proficient in but don't have expertise yet.

So both options are pretty heavy hitting but in different directions. I think it boils down more to what kind of change you want.

[MaxWilson]

I'm confused. Are you thinking of a Bard 9/Paladin 10, trying to decide where to allocate his next level? Because otherwise there's a lot more tradeoffs to consider. E.g. Bard 11 Paladin 9 is a lot nicer than 10/10.

Improved Divine Smite is small potatoes, a consolation prize for not having Extra Attack. Could be replaced by Magical Secret: Booming Blade plus the Mobile feat.

Magical Secrets customizes the Bard list for you. You can swap spells when you level, but only spells on your bard list. You can't put a sixth level spell on your list at 10th level, it has to wait for 14th.

[Citan]

Hi OP!

I'd say it's not a matter of mathematical comparison, just a matter of preference and role in group.
If you're supposed to be mainly at the front bashing creatures and rarely using Bard features, then by all means go Pally.
Otherwise Bard is imo the way to go, since that you have much more choice on what to do with those Magic Secrets.

[Foxhound438]

I'm confused. Are you thinking of a Bard 9/Paladin 10, trying to decide where to allocate his next level? Because otherwise there's a lot more tradeoffs to consider. E.g. Bard 11 Paladin 9 is a lot nicer than 10/10.

Improved Divine Smite is small potatoes, a consolation prize for not having Extra Attack. Could be replaced by Magical Secret: Booming Blade plus the Mobile feat.

Magical Secrets customizes the Bard list for you. You can swap spells when you level, but only spells on your bard list. You can't put a sixth level spell on your list at 10th level, it has to wait for 14th.

paladin does have extra attack. Longsword with ids and two attacks does more than one booming blade, unless you can somehow convince the creature to move....

[MaxWilson]

paladin does have extra attack. Longsword with ids and two attacks does more than one booming blade, unless you can somehow convince the creature to move....

Sorry, in context I meant "another Extra Attack, like a fighter at the same level." The Extra Attack is better and more flexible.

Convincing the enemy to move is why I mentioned Mobile.

[Arkhios]

While I appreciate the feat suggestions, mine are kind of set already, that is, I've already chosen my feats and ASI's.

Yes, I am wondering from a standpoint of Paladin 10/Bard 9 (pretty much in that order, too). The character is Sword & Board, and his roles in the group are the defender, a walking library, and the utility belt (we don't have a rogue), not the primary DPR, though I'm aware that a Paladin can dish out some serious bursts of damage, spell slots permitting.

With a longsword in one hand my damage is pretty basic (not counting buffs or magical weapon): 1d8+4, so nothing surprising there.

I was thinking about taking Booming Blade at 6th Bard level as one of the additional secrets (yes, it's a Lore bard), but I'm not so sure anymore.

Oh, and I'm weighing the options abit ahead of time. The character isn't yet at that point where this becomes relevant, but I like to design a route I could follow in advance. The exact levels at which point to take what depends on the practicality of the situation.
I know by now, that I want at least third level paladin spells (all of them, no matter how few they are, and Oath of the Ancients spells are both cool and flavorful), though Aura of Courage at 10th Paladin level is really tempting too.

[joaber]

I would go for pali 6 / bard 14, or pali 8/ bard 12 if you really nead your 7th lvl oath and a ASI/feat.

first option you get a d10, 7th lvl spell with magical secrets (simulacrum or any other stuffs?). But you'll be a lvl 17 spellcaster with your 9th lvl spell slot. "but my 1d8 at lvl 11"... use a lvl 7th spell to make a elemental weapon with +3 attack +3d4 damage and give this to the fighter with 4 attacks.

[Arkhios]

I would go for pali 6 / bard 14, or pali 8/ bard 12 if you really nead your 7th lvl oath and a ASI/feat.

first option you get a d10, 7th lvl spell with magical secrets (simulacrum or any other stuffs?). But you'll be a lvl 17 spellcaster with your 9th lvl spell slot. "but my 1d8 at lvl 11"... use a lvl 7th spell to make a elemental weapon with +3 attack +3d4 damage and give this to the fighter with 4 attacks.

But I want third level paladin spells; pali 8/bard 12 won't do. Paladin gets access to those at 9th level :/ There are more than just two spells to use, and I wouldn't want to expend the additional secrets for elemental weapon, aura of vitality, revivify, or remove curse (bard gets none of those by default)
We don't have a fighter with four attacks. We are a Totem Barbarian, a Land Druid, a Storm Sorcerer, and me, Ancients Paladin/Lore Bard (see the theme here? Kinda "green", no? :smalltongue:).
Both the barbarian and I have two attacks with Extra Attack, so it's quite the same whether I buff my own attacks or his.
(Obviously I won't go to discussing what feats the barbarian should or shouldn't take, it's not my character and therefore not my job :smalltongue:)
As I won't be getting spells from 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th levels, I really, really, don't need the 9th level spell slots (or rather, one slot, "woohoo") either.
Paladin 10/Bard 10 is 15th level caster, and has up to 8th level slots, which is more than good (comparing to the meek up to 5th level I would normally get from pure paladin).
Paladin 8/Bard 12 would be 16th level caster, but gets 6th level bard spells, and again up to 8th level slots.
Paladin 9/Bard 11 would be 14th 15th level caster, also gets 6th level bard spells, and would get 8th level slots.
Paladin 11/Bard 9 would be 14th level caster (still great, as seen above), gets IDS for +1d8, and 7th level Elemental Weapon but would lose in utility.
I'm not sure if losing the utility is worth the loss in damage output of our group as a whole. That's the problem :/

EDIT: I have Thunderwave and I plan to use it often, despite the ear-shattering sound which betrays our presence really quickly (again we don't have a rogue, so what's the point in sneaking around! xD).
Would a Thunderwave purely from damage perspective be enough of a trade for the loss of IDS? It can easily hit multiple foes at once, and begins with 2d8 damage with a push, adding +1d8 per higher slot. At 15th caster level it would become a roar of 9d8 damage.

[joaber]

I see.

I think you need to put in the table, what spells you will get with lvl 10 bard? This worth a +1d8 in every attack? If you'll be more utility than fighter, take the bard option.

But if I would decide to be lvl 11 pali, I probably would go only to lvl 6 as bard and deep 3 lvls as BM fighter, because now I'm the damage dealer beacheees!

[bid]

The character is Sword & Board, and his roles in the group are the defender, a walking library, and the utility belt (we don't have a rogue), not the primary DPR, though I'm aware that a Paladin can dish out some serious bursts of damage, spell slots permitting.
From a pure utility point of view, you want bard 10 (the 8th slot from caster 15 is a bonus). Bard 11 would teach you some nice 6th spells which are hard to resist.

Whatever nice 3rd spells you want from paladin, you have already stolen. Going past paladin 8 is entering a wasteland for you.


EDIT: Ok, I agree picking whatever paladin 3rd you want every day beats bard 12 ASI/feat. But eyebite and mass suggestion are too tasty to skip bard 11.

[MaxWilson]

Paladin 9/Bard 11 would be 14th level caster, also gets 6th level bard spells,

15th level caster actually. This would be my choice, for Mass Suggestion/Otto's Irresistible Dance, two "I win" buttons which you will have plenty of slots to use. 10/10 gets you the courage aura, but I don't see as much value in that as you seem to. Most fear effects in 5E wear off rapidly and permanently, and you can always Countercharm or Calm Emotions anyway, or even Heroism. Darkness also counteracts fear against many foes. Not worth losing 6th level spells for.

When you want to turn up the damage, dump a handful of change on the ground and Animate Objects.

[Arkhios]

I see.

I think you need to put in the table, what spells you will get with lvl 10 bard? This worth a +1d8 in every attack? If you'll be more utility than fighter, take the bard option.

But if I would decide to be lvl 11 pali, I probably would go only to lvl 6 as bard and deep 3 lvls as BM fighter, because now I'm the damage dealer beacheees!

With 10th level bard, I believe I'd take at least the Destructive Wave which I'd otherwise lose from paladin, and then something that fits the theme (which boils down to a 4th edition "warden" and a "Summer Knight" due to how my character was introduced to his Oath. Anything that fits the warmth of summer, and the light of the sun are good options.)

Plus, I'm a huge fan of Thunderwave, and I'll no doubt use it at every possible occasion there comes :smallbiggrin:


15th level caster actually. This would be my choice, for Mass Suggestion/Otto's Irresistible Dance, two "I win" buttons which you will have plenty of slots to use. 10/10 gets you the courage aura, but I don't see as much value in that as you seem to. Most fear effects in 5E wear off rapidly and permanently, and you can always Countercharm or Calm Emotions anyway, or even Heroism. Darkness also counteracts fear against many foes. Not worth losing 6th level spells for.

When you want to turn up the damage, dump a handful of change on the ground and Animate Objects.

You know what, I admit I made a "bit" of a miscalculation there... I saw the levels, and somehow I still calculated them the other way around... seems I still need my breakfast coffee to function properly. *doh!*

You make some good points there. I'll think about it.

[joaber]

With 10th level bard, I believe I'd take at least the Destructive Wave which I'd otherwise lose from paladin, and then something that fits the theme (which boils down to a 4th edition "warden" and a "Summer Knight" due to how my character was introduced to his Oath. Anything that fits the warmth of summer, and the light of the sun are good options.)

I feel in your writing that you really want to go bard 10 but have fear of the reprobation of the others because you're giving up of the "incredible level 11 paladin!".

Well, I would go bard 10 in your case, in fact I would go bard 11 to get mass suggestion. Sometimes, this can be way bigger than destructive wave.

[MaxWilson]

Here's another reason to go Bard 11/Paladin 9: you can take True Seeing. With your 15th level caster slots, you will be able to cast True Seeing on three people and then use your concentration to cast Darkness, which grants all three recipients Truesight 120' and therefore gives them advantage to attack/disadvantage to be attacked against most non-draconic and non-demonic creatures, exactly like a Devil's Sight Warlock. (If someone else casts Darkness you can use your concentration on Animate Objects, because objects have blindsight 30' and likewise benefit from Darkness.)

Unfortunately you can only have two 6th level spells known so you can't have Mass Suggestion AND True Seeing AND Otto's Irresistible Dance AND Programmed Illusion, all of which are good in different ways. But you can have the two which most appeal to you.

[djreynolds]

Sorcerer is a great dip as well, the ability to twin or heighten spells is awesome.

[Arkhios]

Here's another reason to go Bard 11/Paladin 9: you can take True Seeing. With your 15th level caster slots, you will be able to cast True Seeing on three people and then use your concentration to cast Darkness, which grants all three recipients Truesight 120' and therefore gives them advantage to attack/disadvantage to be attacked against most non-draconic and non-demonic creatures, exactly like a Devil's Sight Warlock. (If someone else casts Darkness you can use your concentration on Animate Objects, because objects have blindsight 30' and likewise benefit from Darkness.)

Unfortunately you can only have two 6th level spells known so you can't have Mass Suggestion AND True Seeing AND Otto's Irresistible Dance AND Programmed Illusion, all of which are good in different ways. But you can have the two which most appeal to you.

I'm a wee bit biased with the "servant of the light/sun/summer"-theme, and casting darkness just feels "wrong" from that perspective. Though, I admit True Seeing (even without the Darkness abuse) for more than just me is very tempting. However, given the aforementioned reason (no matter how unintelligible you might feel it is), I'm more inclined to cast Daylight instead of Darkness. Call me a silly sod if you wish, I just try to keep up with my 'character' more than with blatant effectiveness.


Sorcerer is a great dip as well, the ability to twin or heighten spells is awesome.

It's three levels off from bard or paladin, meaning less spell access from them. If I wanted to gimp my already gimped progression in either classes, and if I didn't want certain spells of certain levels, such as 3rd level paladin spells (all of them) or Raise Dead (at 9th bard level), I might consider that. However, at three levels in sorcerer, I'm forever limited to ever having no more than 3 sorcery points, which in turn limits which or how many spells I could heighten or twin. If you read it closely, "You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level", at 3rd level, the limit is 3 sorcery points. That means at all times. You can't pool them up and then allocate accordingly. No matter if I chose to burn an 8th level spell slot for 8 sorcery points, I would still get no more than 3 from it. Ever.

PS. I did consider dipping into Favored Soul (with Life domain) for 9 levels at first, which would have opened up the possibility of burning slots of any level for sorcery points and still get many great spells, but Sorcerer is somewhat boring when compared to bard, and I didn't really want to step on the toes of our group's sorcerer either.


I feel in your writing that you really want to go bard 10 but have fear of the reprobation of the others because you're giving up of the "incredible level 11 paladin!".

Well, I would go bard 10 in your case, in fact I would go bard 11 to get mass suggestion. Sometimes, this can be way bigger than destructive wave.

Admittedly I really am more inclined towards the bard 10, but the latter part of deduction is slightly off. I don't fear reprobation from the others, because I'm probably the only one in our group who even makes character builds in advance, and truth be told, I don't think they would even care what I did. In truth, I fear I'll regret the decision myself. Yes, I know, it's silly :smallbiggrin:

It's true, that you don't have to kill everyone to achieve success/submission in the game, however, I'd still get destructive wave (as it would come at 10th level magical secrets) while I'd get mass suggestion as the bard 11 regular spell, so it's not lost to me, per se.

[MaxWilson]

I'm a wee bit biased with the "servant of the light/sun/summer"-theme, and casting darkness just feels "wrong" from that perspective. Though, I admit True Seeing (even without the Darkness abuse) for more than just me is very tempting. However, given the aforementioned reason (no matter how unintelligible you might feel it is), I'm more inclined to cast Daylight instead of Darkness. Call me a silly sod if you wish, I just try to keep up with my 'character' more than with blatant effectiveness.

Believe me, despite my powergamer instincts I've very sympathetic to avoiding a tactic for roleplaying reasons. I refuse to play clerics because I hate their RP flavor (even though I readily acknowledge their mechanical desirability for a party), and I prefer Paladins of Devotion to Paladins of Vengeance despite the Vengeance guy's action economy superiority. (I have found reasons to appreciate the Paladin of Devotion's subclass features, especially the aura that makes you immune to Hypnotic Pattern friendly fire and the access to Sanctuary, plus Turn Undead. But if you gave me the chance to play a Paladin of Devotion with the mechanical powers of a Paladin of Vengeance I would still be tempted.)

So, no Darkness for you. Mass Suggestion is still pretty cool though, and so is Otto's.

[Arkhios]

Believe me, despite my powergamer instincts I've very sympathetic to avoiding a tactic for roleplaying reasons. I refuse to play clerics because I hate their RP flavor (even though I readily acknowledge their mechanical desirability for a party), and I prefer Paladins of Devotion to Paladins of Vengeance despite the Vengeance guy's action economy superiority. (I have found reasons to appreciate the Paladin of Devotion's subclass features, especially the aura that makes you immune to Hypnotic Pattern friendly fire and the access to Sanctuary, plus Turn Undead. But if you gave me the chance to play a Paladin of Devotion with the mechanical powers of a Paladin of Vengeance I would still be tempted.)

So, no Darkness for you. Mass Suggestion is still pretty cool though, and so is Otto's.

Acknowledged, and Indeed. Sorry of it sounded like I was blaming you for Powergamer Instincts (I think I have them too), it's just that once in a while I still prefer to challenge myself with more Role playing over Roll playing :smallsmile:
In fact I would have gone the Devotion path if my DM hadn't made a convincing case about taking Oath of the Ancients instead. I didn't see it at first myself, but Oath of the Ancients just fits better for the concept I had before I even had any stats on the sheet! (My guilty pleasure of stealing the devotion for the Light comes blatantly from Warcraft :smallredface:, and the Oath of the Ancients is all about defending and promoting the Light and the Life which in itself metaphorically translates to light in the darkness. Heck! My whole character concept comes from my first and still primary character, Human Paladin with deep connections, RP-wise, to druidism. We had once this little guild which was technically a Druidic Circle which accepted more than druids, and it stuck.)

[Arkhios]

A conclusion of sorts:
Regardless of whether I choose to advance beyond 9th level in paladin (Most likely stay at 9/11 (no pun intended!) or 10/10), I've come to a conclusion about spells I'll most likely take with Magical Secrets.


at Bard's 6th level, I'll probably take Spirit Guardians and Counterspell. Both are fitting in theme as well as with other abilities I already have. Counterspell is a nice addition to Aura of Warding, which at its 10 feet radius would then remain as a back-up if I couldn't counterspell a damaging spell, while Spirit Guardians can be of Fey or Celestial nature in appearance, and my "Divine Benefactor" is the Archfey Titania, the Summer Queen.
at Bard's 10th level, I'll pick the Destructive Wave, and Flamestrike. The first one is fitting due to my character's bloodline, reaching to a legendary mage bynamed as "Stormbearer" (thus, Thunderwave as soon as I got Bard). It's not really a Sorcerous Origin, but rather a legacy. The latter one, Flamestrike can be described as if it was the Sun's Wrath upon those who deserve it.


Firstly, I was going to pick up Booming Blade, but in truth, with this cantrip I would be forced to forget using the Extra Attack feature, which might not be that much fun in the end, all possible buffs considered.
Secondly, I thought about picking Shillelagh, but that might've been a bit too far a step in our druid's turf. Besides you never know if you get your hands upon a Holy Avenger, and as I read it, I wouldn't be able to replace the spells gained through Additional Magical Secrets.

[Citan]

A conclusion of sorts:
Regardless of whether I choose to advance beyond 9th level in paladin (Most likely stay at 9/11 (no pun intended!) or 10/10), I've come to a conclusion about spells I'll most likely take with Magical Secrets.


at Bard's 6th level, I'll probably take Spirit Guardians and Counterspell. Both are fitting in theme as well as with other abilities I already have. Counterspell is a nice addition to Aura of Warding, which at its 10 feet radius would then remain as a back-up if I couldn't counterspell a damaging spell, while Spirit Guardians can be of Fey or Celestial nature in appearance, and my "Divine Benefactor" is the Archfey Titania, the Summer Queen.
at Bard's 10th level, I'll pick the Destructive Wave, and Flamestrike. The first one is fitting due to my character's bloodline, reaching to a legendary mage bynamed as "Stormbearer" (thus, Thunderwave as soon as I got Bard). It's not really a Sorcerous Origin, but rather a legacy. The latter one, Flamestrike can be described as if it was the Sun's Wrath upon those who deserve it.


Firstly, I was going to pick up Booming Blade, but in truth, with this cantrip I would be forced to forget using the Extra Attack feature, which might not be that much fun in the end, all possible buffs considered.
Secondly, I thought about picking Shillelagh, but that might've been a bit too far a step in our druid's turf. Besides you never know if you get your hands upon a Holy Avenger, and as I read it, I wouldn't be able to replace the spells gained through Additional Magical Secrets.
These are nice choices, totally enforcing your Bard/Paladin concept. ;)
Just a thing: taking Shillelagh, I don't know how it could be considered tip-toeing on your Druid pal. I means, it's obviously a choice you make for mechanical reasons, and it's far from being a core feature of a Druid. If necessary, talk with your DM on how to refluff it to work with a blade weapon similar in characteristics to a club or quarterstaff, and agree with him that you actually learn it through a RP event. Should be good like this. :)

[Arkhios]

These are nice choices, totally enforcing your Bard/Paladin concept. ;)
Just a thing: taking Shillelagh, I don't know how it could be considered tip-toeing on your Druid pal. I means, it's obviously a choice you make for mechanical reasons, and it's far from being a core feature of a Druid. If necessary, talk with your DM on how to refluff it to work with a blade weapon similar in characteristics to a club or quarterstaff, and agree with him that you actually learn it through a RP event. Should be good like this. :)

It's always nice to hear compliments about own choices, at least they're not utter crap ;P

With my Charisma up and equal to Strength, Attacking with Charisma while Shillelagh active is meaningless, though the cantrip has its other uses too. If I lost my primary weapon somewhere or needed a magical weapon, that'a about it.

I'd like that cantrip but I'm not sure which spell I should replace it with, Counterspell has so far reaching potential, while Spirit Guardians is almost insanely great choice for additional DPR, if needed.

If I took it, I might try to ask my DM, if he would allow a Holy Avenger to transform into a Quarterstaff, if such a legendary weapon did drop.

*sigh*, if only bards could use a druidic focus for their spells! :P

[Corran]

I ve jumped through several posts so I may have missed sth, but did you consider taking armor of agathys as one of your magical secrets? If you are figthing in melee it could be really helpful, considering you have a very good caster progression. If you are used to tanking several enemies, you could even spend a round or two casting blade ward, assuming you have pre cast AoA with a high level slot and you expect a lot o incoming melee attacks.

[Arkhios]

I ve jumped through several posts so I may have missed sth, but did you consider taking armor of agathys as one of your magical secrets? If you are figthing in melee it could be really helpful, considering you have a very good caster progression. If you are used to tanking several enemies, you could even spend a round or two casting blade ward, assuming you have pre cast AoA with a high level slot and you expect a lot o incoming melee attacks.

I just ignored it, as Cold damage doesn't really fit with the theme :) For the same thing I won't mourn losing Cone of Cold from the oath.

[joaber]

I was just kidding about the reprodation thing, don't get me wrong.

you know what is great with spiritual guardians? Sanctuary. Take your time to heal and help the allies, while you continue to damage the enemies and than back to game.

I would go for conjure volley instead flame strike. You throw a hammer to the sky and God make it rain pain in the enemies.

[Paeleus]

I might have already missed the comment addressing this, but taking Bard to level 10 to get magical secrets lets you acquire higher level spells than you would get normally per RAW and the multiclassing spellcasting rules.

From Bard (sans magical secrets) you will only get to learn 5th level spells. Having 10 or how ever many levels in paladin is crucial here because he counts as a half-caster for the sake of determining spell slots. So at level 20 (10 bard/10 pally) you could count as a level 15 spell caster, thus granting you a 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell slot, thus giving you an expanded and more powerful list Of spells to choose from.

[Arkhios]

I was just kidding about the reprodation thing, don't get me wrong.

you know what is great with spiritual guardians? Sanctuary. Take your time to heal and help the allies, while you continue to damage the enemies and than back to game.

I would go for conjure volley instead flame strike. You throw a hammer to the sky and God make it rain pain in the enemies.

Don't worry, none taken :)
While sanctuary sure is nice, I don't think I need to focus in healing while we also have a druid.
You know what, that Conjure Volley idea with a hammer sounds awesome! I'll consider it. Actually no, Flame Strike can deal more damage, within a same radius of effect. (Though, Conjure Volley does use the component weapon's damage type).


I might have already missed the comment addressing this, but taking Bard to level 10 to get magical secrets lets you acquire higher level spells than you would get normally per RAW and the multiclassing spellcasting rules.

From Bard (sans magical secrets) you will only get to learn 5th level spells. Having 10 or how ever many levels in paladin is crucial here because he counts as a half-caster for the sake of determining spell slots. So at level 20 (10 bard/10 pally) you could count as a level 15 spell caster, thus granting you a 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell slot, thus giving you an expanded and more powerful list Of spells to choose from.

I wasn't exactly sure that's how it works. I decided to play it safe. I might be wrong though.

[Corran]

I just ignored it, as Cold damage doesn't really fit with the theme :) For the same thing I won't mourn losing Cone of Cold from the oath.
Just read what your character's theme is. Very nice, I like it.
You could always reflavour the type of damage of AoA, or even go as far as to change it (if you and your group are ok with doing things like that). Radiant damage would fit very nicely imo, though it might be a bit more powerful, as radiant damage is rarely resisted. Fire damage would be a very balanced choice, as it gets resisted as often as (if not more often than) cold damage. Still, that is going off rules, so I dont know how much you would like sth like that. Just a thought...

[MaxWilson]

[LIST]
at Bard's 6th level, I'll probably take Spirit Guardians and Counterspell. Both are fitting in theme as well as with other abilities I already have. Counterspell is a nice addition to Aura of Warding, which at its 10 feet radius would then remain as a back-up if I couldn't counterspell a damaging spell, while Spirit Guardians can be of Fey or Celestial nature in appearance, and my "Divine Benefactor" is the Archfey Titania, the Summer Queen.


I must say: if you haven't read the Dresden Files yet, you simply must do so. The fey are terrific.

BTW, even with Booming Blade, Extra Attack is still useful for control. You use it to do things like grapple + prone the enemy in the same round, or to grapple two guys at once. Booming Blade cannot do that.


I might have already missed the comment addressing this, but taking Bard to level 10 to get magical secrets lets you acquire higher level spells than you would get normally per RAW and the multiclassing spellcasting rules.

From Bard (sans magical secrets) you will only get to learn 5th level spells. Having 10 or how ever many levels in paladin is crucial here because he counts as a half-caster for the sake of determining spell slots. So at level 20 (10 bard/10 pally) you could count as a level 15 spell caster, thus granting you a 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell slot, thus giving you an expanded and more powerful list Of spells to choose from.

That's not legal. Multiclassing doesn't change how Magical Secrets works.

[joaber]

Don't worry, none taken :)
Flame Strike can deal more damage, within a same radius of effect. (Though, Conjure Volley does use the component weapon's damage type).


conjure volley do 8d8, flame strike 8d8 (ow more using high slots).

but conure volley is 40f-radious, with 20f-high cone. 150 feet away

flame strike is 10f-radious, 40f-high cone. 60 feet away

Except if you're fighting against a bunch of flying creatures one on top of the other, the area of effect of conjure volley is waaaaaaay larger than flame strike.

And you can carry, some hummers, spears, axes for bludgeoning, pircing, slashing. Or with some creativity, molotovs for fire or acid, lol.

[Paeleus]

That's not legal. Multiclassing doesn't change how Magical Secrets works.

Aha! Correct you are as it stems from the bard level. Thanks for catching my error!

[Arkhios]

Reading Dresden Files have been on my to-do list for a long time, but I seem to find so many other things to attend to, but not reading. (Which is a shame, though)


conjure volley do 8d8, flame strike 8d8 (ow more using high slots).

but conure volley is 40f-radious, with 20f-high cone. 150 feet away

flame strike is 10f-radious, 40f-high cone. 60 feet away

Except if you're fighting against a bunch of flying creatures one on top of the other, the area of effect of conjure volley is waaaaaaay larger than flame strike.

And you can carry, some hummers, spears, axes for bludgeoning, pircing, slashing. Or with some creativity, molotovs for fire or acid, lol.

Forget I said anything, of course Conjure Volley is better. iFail @ reading the book. -.-
(After rereading it, I can't resist nitpicking a few things, it's 8d6, not 8d8, but otherwise, the radius and range were correct)

I'll have to think about it though. There are many other handy spells to consider, maybe something from a druid, or again from Cleric, like mass cure wounds or something.

[Arkhios]

...Or, maybe I could delay taking that Spirit Guardians until Bard 10, and pick Shillelagh and Counterspell at Bard 6! :D

Even though Spirit Guardians is only a 3rd level spell, it has that same quite epic wibe as Oath of the Ancients paladin's capstone ability. It would be visually nice addition at that point, and it can be up-cast, as well, landing at 15 feet radius, and up to 8d8 radiant damage each round for 10 minutes; hypothetically 100 rounds unless concentration breaks. That's one meatgrinder! :D (Sanctuary as the iconic "Paladin Bubble" would add some insult to injury, quite literally xD)
As the tanky member of our group, I should focus on short range spells.

EDIT:

Just read what your character's theme is. Very nice, I like it.
You could always reflavour the type of damage of AoA, or even go as far as to change it (if you and your group are ok with doing things like that). Radiant damage would fit very nicely imo, though it might be a bit more powerful, as radiant damage is rarely resisted. Fire damage would be a very balanced choice, as it gets resisted as often as (if not more often than) cold damage. Still, that is going off rules, so I dont know how much you would like sth like that. Just a thought...

My DM isn't very lenient about refluffing spells and other stuff (laaaame!) but his game, his rules. From the theme standpoint, I guess lightning or thunder might work as substitute type as well, though the temporary hit points from an icy coating on you is more difficult to explain with anything other than ice. Of all the elements, ice is the most reasonable choice to grant temporary hit points, as it gets solid, and thus mitigates the damage I would otherwise take. Maybe force too, but that's definitely not going to happen since very few resist force damage.