Dragon fighting tactics help

[Gamereaper]

Hey guys, I was curious on some easy ways that you can thwart dragons or make them far less threatening. I already understand that Shivering Touch/Ray of Clumsiness combos like that work. The PCs will have a class on fighting dragons and I need some ideas for mundane or creative spell use.

Wall of Force for example can create a barrier to hide behind for their breath weapons and such. That is more where I'm going at.

The dragons they will eventually face are prehistoric dragons are on par with quasi deity power. One for example has a line breath weapon so hot, that of you fail the Reflex save, you are outright disintegrated, a successful save gives you 36D12 fire damage instead that is not subject to resistance/immunities/conversion/etc. With that being said, their spell resistance is through the roof, bordering on flat immunity.

[Hiro Quester]

Be a 13th level bard/Sublime Chord (or high level Wizard). Cast Otto's Irresistible Dance. Hold the charge and make the touch attack immediately after the fighter/tank has got the dragon to use up its attacks of opportunity for the round.

Dancing dragons for the win.

[Jowgen]

Dragons make prime-cut Favored Enemy optimization targets, thanks to the Arcane Hunter ACF essentially allowing double bonuses on everything.

[Gamereaper]

Dragons make prime-cut Favored Enemy optimization targets, thanks to the Arcane Hunter ACF essentially allowing double bonuses on everything.

That's more of what I'm looking for. That I'm sure will help as long as someone picks Ranger.

[Beheld]

I don't think anyone can possibly speak towards quasi diety whatever dragons, because that's all complete nonsense and you can just bring infinity Solars to every fight and/or cast Holy Word at CL NI, because whatever, who cares about Epic.

But this stuff applies from a previous thread about fighting a specific Green Dragon.


If you know what Dragon you are going to be facing, you need the following things (especially if you outnumber him):

1) A way to ground him.
2) A Way to survive/Ignore his breaths.
3) A way to set him up for death besides grounding him.

So for an Ancient Green:

a) He's going to make every save, so don't even bother.
b) He has SR 27, so either you are never going to penetrate, or you are going to cast SR lowering spells.
c) His breath weapon does about 70 damage save for half.
d) He has Dominate Person 1/day
e) He has a super high Frightful Presence DC.
f) He has all the buff spells of a 13th level Sorcerer.

So the first thing I would do is reduce the number of dragon hunters and add a higher level Wizard. If you are fighting a CR 21 Dragon you want a Wizard that can beat his CL 100%, but whatever.

So here's what you do:
1) Replace a Wizard with a Cleric. Have him cast Hero's Feast just with all his slots, so that everyone is immune to fear.
2) When you see the Dragon, he activates a Bead of Karma and then Casts Mass Resist Energy twice to give everyone 30 Resist against Acid.
3) There should be a Magic Circle Against Evil or 5 spread around so that everyone is immune to Dominate Person.
4) The Cleric and a few Wizards can spam Lower Spell Resistance (Draconomicon). The save actually has at least a shot because you can reduce his CL by 13-14 for the Cleric, and 9-10 for the Wizards. So it's only +12/+16 before items and spells.
5) You probably want at least one Wizard 2/Specialist Abjurer 7 who casts Targeted Dispel Magic and takes 10 on the CL check (There's a Feat for that, I think in PHB II). He can then automatically strip all the buffs which you will definitely want to do.

So now you've covered lowering his spell resist, and being immune to most of what he's got to do from you with range (except his Breath, which you are only less then halving, but take what you can get).

Now, you still need to ground him. The basic strategy is to make him slow. One method that can work is, Cast Solid Fog around him as a few people, this will at least force him to Hover in place, which prevents him from strafing you. But instead of that, take down with Spell resistance and buffs, and then hit him with Ray of Dizziness (SpC) Which is a no save slow effect.

If you have a grounded Dragon who can't full attack, you have free fodder for all your Fighters/Rangers/Ect to gang up on.

If he doesn't land, his hover should still be annoying, but your Rangers can stand far enough away to fire arrows at him, and if he has to cast spells instead of strafing with breath attacks, his damage goes way way down, and if you can keep your Master Specialist Abjurer outside the Cloud [created by his hover], you can counterspell him.

Generally speaking, if you are fighting Dragons around your level, you will be able to auto dispel all their spells with a targeted dispel, then use SR beating tactics, probably just Assay Spell Resistance, then hit them with a Ray of Diziness. This takes away their full round action.

At that point, they can cast spells but not move, make a single attack each round, or breath once or twice every 1d4 rounds.

You can usually ignore or counterspell their offensive spells, since you are multiple party members and you have more actions than them, and they caste like a Sorcerer of half their CR.

If they attack with a single attack, it's really small and hardly worth even worrying about.

So that leaves Breath Weapons. The obvious answer is to be immune to whatever their breath weapons are. If you are facing a Gold, be immune to sleep and Fire, if you are facing a Green be Immune to Acid, ect.

Reist Energy or Resist Energy Mass at lower level into the Energy Immunity spell, level 6 Druid or level 7 everyone else is a good start, and you can customize it for your opposition. But also, you can get the Cold and Fire subtypes permanently added to your character with the casting of two level 5 spells, Mantle of the Fiery Spirit (Sandstorm) and Mantle of Icy Soul (Frostburn), they have XP costs, but it's worth.

Get immunities to whatever the other breath weapon is the usual way.

Finally, be wary of Dragons with Disguise Self, if you don't know what Dragon type it is, then you can't know what protection spells to cast.

[Gamereaper]

Be a 13th level bard/Sublime Chord (or high level Wizard). Cast Otto's Irresistible Dance. Hold the charge and make the touch attack immediately after the fighter/tank has got the dragon to use up its attacks of opportunity for the round.

Dancing dragons for the win.

Again, casting spells directly AT them will be next to useless. Making a specific build isn't exactly what I'm looking for either.

Are there any spells that can block breath weapons that are impervious to damage aside from Wall of Force? Anything that could drastically reduce spell resistance? Maybe a few no SR spells that a prepared caster can cast?

[Hiro Quester]

Are there any spells that can block breath weapons that are impervious to damage aside from Wall of Force? Anything that could drastically reduce spell resistance? Maybe a few no SR spells that a prepared caster can cast?

Assay Spell resistance you cast on yourself, while looking at a target. Lowers the target's Spell Resistance for you, with regard to that target. Get a wand and pass it around.

Protection from energy absorb 12 points of a particular energy type per caster level. So have someone prepare lots of those.

To reduce saving throws: Have a party member (or hire a mercenary) who is a bard with Doomspeak feat (uses bardic music) to make a target -10 on all attacks, saves, ability checks until that character's next turn. (That's how the bard/SC I used to play made an ancient red dragon dance, BTW; I concede that was a bit of a build specific tactic to suggest, though).

Mudslide. No SR. 6th level Wiz/Druid spell (Stormwrack) . Target who fails reflex save (usually a dragons worst save) is buried in mud 10 ft deep.

Then immediately (team tactics or a quickened speak from the same caster) cast a quickened transmute mud to rock. Again no SR, because you are targeting the mud. Reflex save (dragon's worst save). That will probably deal with the Dragon's mobility (better than a slow effect, perhaps).

Edit:

you can get the Cold and Fire subtypes permanently added to your character with the casting of two level 5 spells, Mantle of the Fiery Spirit (Sandstorm) and Mantle of Icy Soul (Frostburn), they have XP costs, but it's worth.

You can't have both at the same time. I researched this for that same bard character I as talking about, and there was a clear rule about it someplace. I'll try to look it up.

Further edit: In SC they updated Mantle of the Icy soul: "A fire creature subjected to this spell does not gain the cold subtype, but it loses the fire subtype for the duration."

[Beheld]

You can't have both at the same time. I researched this for that same bard character I as talking about, and there was a clear rule about it someplace. I'll try to look it up.

Further edit: In SC they updated Mantle of the Icy soul: "A fire creature subjected to this spell does not gain the cold subtype, but it loses the fire subtype for the duration."

In the Frostburn one, the duration is instantaneous, the SpC for pretty much no reason, make it into a worse version of Energy Immunity. Even if one of the two instanteous effects takes away the other subtype, just cast the one that does first, then cast the other one after and have both.

[Gamereaper]

I don't think anyone can possibly speak towards quasi diety whatever dragons, because that's all complete nonsense and you can just bring infinity Solars to every fight and/or cast Holy Word at CL NI, because whatever, who cares about Epic.

But this stuff applies from a previous thread about fighting a specific Green Dragon.



Generally speaking, if you are fighting Dragons around your level, you will be able to auto dispel all their spells with a targeted dispel, then use SR beating tactics, probably just Assay Spell Resistance, then hit them with a Ray of Diziness. This takes away their full round action.

At that point, they can cast spells but not move, make a single attack each round, or breath once or twice every 1d4 rounds.

You can usually ignore or counterspell their offensive spells, since you are multiple party members and you have more actions than them, and they caste like a Sorcerer of half their CR.

If they attack with a single attack, it's really small and hardly worth even worrying about.

So that leaves Breath Weapons. The obvious answer is to be immune to whatever their breath weapons are. If you are facing a Gold, be immune to sleep and Fire, if you are facing a Green be Immune to Acid, ect.

Reist Energy or Resist Energy Mass at lower level into the Energy Immunity spell, level 6 Druid or level 7 everyone else is a good start, and you can customize it for your opposition. But also, you can get the Cold and Fire subtypes permanently added to your character with the casting of two level 5 spells, Mantle of the Fiery Spirit (Sandstorm) and Mantle of Icy Soul (Frostburn), they have XP costs, but it's worth.

Get immunities to whatever the other breath weapon is the usual way.

Finally, be wary of Dragons with Disguise Self, if you don't know what Dragon type it is, then you can't know what protection spells to cast.

Very helpful, immunities will only help with the spells. This one casts only fire spells or modified spells that change it to the fire descriptor. Resistance is uttely useless unless it's really high and immunity only blocks half the damage from them. The Breath weapon does 36D12 on a successfull reflex save or kills you instantly on a fail and cannot be reduced except by Evasion, Improved Evasion, or similar ability. It also can blind you permanently because it's so bright just from looking at it.

It also heals 100% of fire damage or fires that bypass resistance such as Hellfire it heals 50% of the damage. It swims in lava, which heals it half of the 20D6 damage it would normally take.

[Gamereaper]

Assay Spell resistance you cast on yourself, while looking at a target. Lowers the target's Spell Resistance for you, with regard to that target. Get a wand and pass it around.

Protection from energy absorb 12 points of a particular energy type per caster level. So have someone prepare lots of those.

To reduce saving throws: Have a party member (or hire a mercenary) who is a bard with Doomspeak feat (uses bardic music) to make a target -10 on all attacks, saves, ability checks until that character's next turn.

(That's how the bard/SC I used to play made an ancient red dragon dance, BTW; I concede that was a bit of a build specific tactic to suggest, though).

Mudslide. No SR. 6th level Wiz/Druid spell (Stormwrack) . Target who fails reflex save (usually a dragons worst save) is buried in mud 10 ft deep.

Then immediately (team tactics or a quickened speak from the same caster) cast a quickened transmute mud to rock. Again no SR, because you are targeting the mud. Reflex save (dragon's worst save). That will probably deal with the Dragon's mobility (better than a slow effect, perhaps).


I figured Assay Spell Resistance would help somehow if metamagiced to increase in effectiveness. Protection from energy will be 50% effective towards it's spells (but not breath weapon) so that helps. The Mudslide and Rock to Mud is an awesome idea. It's a very long dragon and not so wide, so it will definitely help there for sure.

The Doomspeak is specific, but that much of a penalty if it's without a save or SR is definitely noteworthy for a critical spell to be put on it such as Shivering touch or Ray of Clumsiness. Thanks for the info.

Anything else that can indirectly target it?

This is awesome, I'm really liking a lot of these ideas. These will definitely apply to most of the other "super dragons" that they have to face.

[J-H]

Anything SR: No is good. Warlocks can use Vitriolic Blast, which is SR:No

Spot the Weak Point and Psionic Shot are both ways for archers to get a Touch attack in. Archery is usually a good choice. The Force ability (MIC) ignores all DR, and Splitting doubles your number of attacks.

I would also look at ToB - there are ways there to ignore/bypass DR, to boost saves, make touch attacks, get extra attacks in, and deny your opponents the ability to take full actions.

Depending on the dragon's size, grapple-summon-mancy might be an option. The larger elementals have grapple modifiers in the 25-35 range. 3 or 4 of them will probably help pin the dragon down for a round or two. While grappling, the dragon can't make AOOs or attack anyone except those he's grappling with.

Environmental traps are good. Rock to Mud, Mud to Stone on the ceiling... siege weapons (ballistas)...

This is a must buy for boss fights! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofOpposition)

[Gamereaper]

Anything SR: No is good. Warlocks can use Vitriolic Blast, which is SR:No

Spot the Weak Point and Psionic Shot are both ways for archers to get a Touch attack in. Archery is usually a good choice. The Force ability (MIC) ignores all DR, and Splitting doubles your number of attacks.

I would also look at ToB - there are ways there to ignore/bypass DR, to boost saves, make touch attacks, get extra attacks in, and deny your opponents the ability to take full actions.

Depending on the dragon's size, grapple-summon-mancy might be an option. The larger elementals have grapple modifiers in the 25-35 range. 3 or 4 of them will probably help pin the dragon down for a round or two. While grappling, the dragon can't make AOOs or attack anyone except those he's grappling with.

Environmental traps are good. Rock to Mud, Mud to Stone on the ceiling... siege weapons (ballistas)...

This is a must buy for boss fights! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofOpposition)

The DR bypass will definitely help, anything less than a +4 weapon will only do it's bonus in damage. The other stuff will help too. Reducing it's action economy will be a big boon to the players.

Not a bad idea, the creatures grappling will have to be immune to fire though. This particular dragon radiates heat that is fortunately reduced by resistance/immunity. They can't do any fire damage either or the dragon will heal from it.

[Beheld]

Very helpful, immunities will only help with the spells. This one casts only fire spells or modified spells that change it to the fire descriptor. Resistance is uttely useless unless it's really high and immunity only blocks half the damage from them. The Breath weapon does 36D12 on a successfull reflex save or kills you instantly on a fail and cannot be reduced except by Evasion, Improved Evasion, or similar ability. It also can blind you permanently because it's so bright just from looking at it.

It also heals 100% of fire damage or fires that bypass resistance such as Hellfire it heals 50% of the damage. It swims in lava, which heals it half of the 20D6 damage it would normally take.

Like I said, if you are playing in an Epic bull**** landscape then who cares.

Just use the life seed to make a creature that is immune to magic and immune to all elements and has a con score of 999999999999 and have it true mind switch with you.

[Hiro Quester]

I figured Assay Spell Resistance would help somehow if metamagiced to increase in effectiveness. Protection from energy will be 50% effective towards it's spells (but not breath weapon) so that helps. The Mudslide and Rock to Mud is an awesome idea. It's a very long dragon and not so wide, so it will definitely help there for sure.

The Doomspeak is specific, but that much of a penalty if it's without a save or SR is definitely noteworthy for a critical spell to be put on it such as Shivering touch or Ray of Clumsiness. Thanks for the info.

Doomspeak is a will save. But it's a decently high one (DC 10 + your character level + your Cha modifier) so ahigh level bard with a well buffed CHA can make it one even a dragon will fail.

Extend spell is a good metamagic for ASR. But It's already round/level duration, which might be enough naturally. And it's already swift action casting, so no quicken needed.

I misremembered the detail, though. It gives you a +10 to caster level checks for overcoming SR. (So it can't be empowered or maximized). It's pure gold all by itself, though, if you have a great save or die SR:yes spell. My bard character and our party wizard once polymorphed a very old pyroclastic dragon into an earthworm with a combination of his ASR and my bard's Doomspeak.

Speaking of pyroclastic Dragons, watch out for them. They can breathe a disintegrate ray, which will take out your wall of force.

[Gamereaper]

Like I said, if you are playing in an Epic bull**** landscape then who cares.

Just use the life seed to make a creature that is immune to magic and immune to all elements and has a con score of 999999999999 and have it true mind switch with you.

This isn't for me. It's for the players.

This kind of advice is not at all what I'm looking for. I am asking for ideas that a dragon slayer would tell my group from an RP perspective.

If you have nothing else to contribute, then take your "epic bull****" rant elsewhere. That also makes the game no fun. Your post on the green dragon was still very helpful, I will add that.

[Beheld]

This isn't for me. It's for the players.

This kind of advice is not at all what I'm looking for. I am asking for ideas that a dragon slayer would tell my group from an RP perspective.

If you have nothing else to contribute, then take your "epic bull****" rant elsewhere. That also makes the game no fun. Your post on the green dragon was still very helpful, I will add that.

If you aren't willing to give any of the information that we would need to be able to give you advice, then of course I can't help you. You are apparently playing a game between levels 21 and infinity in which Epic Spellcasting is banned, but you still use monsters with complete nonsense abilities, like XdY untyped damage on failed save (FYI, neither Evasion nor Improved Evasion would stop that damage, since it isn't "save for half").

I can't possibly Divine what things that kick in at level 21 you ban based on your own personal preferences and what kind of things you consider unfun based on your own personal preferences, so I can't possibly give advice on how to face a Quantum leveled Dragon with a Quantum Balance Point Party.

[Gamereaper]

If you aren't willing to give any of the information that we would need to be able to give you advice, then of course I can't help you. You are apparently playing a game between levels 21 and infinity in which Epic Spellcasting is banned, but you still use monsters with complete nonsense abilities, like XdY untyped damage on failed save (FYI, neither Evasion nor Improved Evasion would stop that damage, since it isn't "save for half").

I can't possibly Divine what things that kick in at level 21 you ban based on your own personal preferences and what kind of things you consider unfun based on your own personal preferences, so I can't possibly give advice on how to face a Quantum leveled Dragon with a Quantum Balance Point Party.

Oh ok, I've given most of the information.
In summary:

1) Breath weapon is white fire breath in a line. It will disintegrate anything it touches, those making the reflex save will instead take 36D12 damage. It burns hotter than normal fire, let's just call it "super fire". Spells such as energy immunity are useless against it, but Evasion, Improved Evasion or the like will reduce the damage.

2)Has blanket immunity to anything fire.
+3 or weaker weapons do their bonus in damage, +4 does normal.

3) Heals 100% HP from fire. Heals 50% HP from "super fire" sources such as a hellfire blast.

4)
It casts spells, but is only limited to Fire based spells, which are treated as "super fire".

5) These dragons have near animal intelligence and are therefore easily tricked.

That's it for the most part.

Second, Epic spellcasting wouldn't be banned. I know there should be a said limit to things, but outright ban? No.

I'm looking for advice on what a dragon slayer would tell the group what to do based on it's power (indirect combat). Using a Wall of Force is viable because that can block a breath weapon. The Mudslide+ Mud to Stone is another viable tactic to help combat it. Cooling the lava it swims in to slow down it's healing is another way. Blade Barrier may work to either provide cover. Or hopefully if it's SR is lowered enough a constant form of damage either forcing it out of the lava or dramitically lowering the rate it regains HP.

[Beheld]

1) Evasion still does nothing, because it's not save for half.
2) You still haven't told us anything about the PCs, or what is or isn't allowed.

My advice is "cast an epic spell to create a new lifeform that has all the abilities you ever want, and then have it True Mindswitch with you. Then Gate in 14 copies of the the exact same dragon and have them fight to the death against the first Dragon."

If you want me to give different advice based on some pile of nerfs you want to apply to the game, then you have to tell me what those nerfs are. But right now, it sure looks like you keep asking "How do level 10 characters deal with a pile of arbitrarium the size of the moon?" to which the answer is, they don't.

[Gamereaper]

1) Evasion still does nothing, because it's not save for half.
2) You still haven't told us anything about the PCs, or what is or isn't allowed.

My advice is "cast an epic spell to create a new lifeform that has all the abilities you ever want, and then have it True Mindswitch with you. Then Gate in 14 copies of the the exact same dragon and have them fight to the death against the first Dragon."

If you want me to give different advice based on some pile of nerfs you want to apply to the game, then you have to tell me what those nerfs are. But right now, it sure looks like you keep asking "How do level 10 characters deal with a pile of arbitrarium the size of the moon?" to which the answer is, they don't.

Oh ok, good catch on the Evasion part. I didn't get that. I don't know what the party composition is just yet, but they will be given this advice regardless since there will be at least 1 wizard for sure, 1 or 2 fighter types for sure, most likely a druid, and an NPC healer.

The idea here though is because of how tough it is, it's not a smart idea going directly at it by just charging in and slinging spells. It's apparent weakness is that it's a big dumb beast with a ton of power. Think fire dragon Tarrasque but solitary and hibernating in a pool of lava that sustains it.

[Willie the Duck]

1) Breath weapon is white fire breath in a line. It will disintegrate anything it touches, those making the reflex save will instead take 36D12 damage. It burns hotter than normal fire, let's just call it "super fire". Spells such as energy immunity are useless against it, but Evasion, Improved Evasion or the like will reduce the damage.

This, by itself, violates the basics of the games enough that we're not going to be able to help you, since you are going to have to decide how a lot of that works. For instance, if the fire disintegrates "anything," does that mean that the PCs can't hide behind a wall? Behind an earthen berm? If Energy immunity is no help, what happens to a fire elemental summoned to (ineffectively) fight the beasts? You're going to have to decide that, since the rules won't help us here.


3) Heals 100% HP from fire. Heals 50% HP from "super fire" sources such as a hellfire blast.

What does this mean? Anytime the beast comes in contact with a normal fire, they regain 100% of their hp, or that a 5d4 burning hands spell would heal them 100%x5d4 hp instead of damaging them?

[Gamereaper]

This, by itself, violates the basics of the games enough that we're not going to be able to help you, since you are going to have to decide how a lot of that works. For instance, if the fire disintegrates "anything," does that mean that the PCs can't hide behind a wall? Behind an earthen berm? If Energy immunity is no help, what happens to a fire elemental summoned to (ineffectively) fight the beasts? You're going to have to decide that, since the rules won't help us here.



What does this mean? Anytime the beast comes in contact with a normal fire, they regain 100% of their hp, or that a 5d4 burning hands spell would heal them 100%x5d4 hp instead of damaging them?

I suppose the breath weapon would disintegrate objects that fail their saving throw from the intense heat, otherwise it would do 36D12 fire damage. A Wall of Force or 2 would suffice for cover. I suppose if I had to decide, it may shave off 5 feet of rock if it hits a wall. The elementals are made of fire and therefore would heal it upon contact for every round they are in contact.

Any time it would take nonmagical or magic fire damage, it will heal that damage instead of get hurt by it, much in the manner that an undead heals from negative energy. Any fores claiming to be hotter than normal fire that could or does affect resistances or immunities heals half as much as it would.

[ThisIsZen]

Gamereaper, you may not know your party composition exactly yet, but you probably do know the rules being used to generate characters, right? Providing us with that would at least give us an idea of what sort of playing field exists between your monsters and the players. That aside, some (perhaps unwelcome) comments:

Blanket "ignores immunity" effects tend to be unfun, because they can't be prepared for or mitigated in any way. Hellfire is a rare enough damage type that it kind of skirts by this, along with the fact that it's kind of exclusively used by Devils and others associated with Mephisto as a way of upping the ante, but if every creature with fire powers in a campaign used Hellfire I'd get kind of tired of having no way of defending myself. As it stands, you're looking to deal an average of 234 damage every time this thing breathes fire, which could be up to every round, and that's on a successful save. If you allow Ref for half then surviving this fight essentially demands Improved Evasion, or being immune to damage in some form.

(As a side-note and perhaps a bit of gauging, I'm currently working on an obscenely overleveled "trouble" NPC for my own epic campaign, who, with a 51 Constitution, 84 HD and max HP per level only hits 2412 HP. That's 84 HD, which is pretty damn high in the epic levels. One of my more reasonable 26 HD NPCs is sitting at 532 HP, meaning he would die on his third successful save.)

If only the thing's breath was this "super fire" then that might be one thing, but you've also decided that all of its spells similarly cannot be resisted and puncture immunities halfway. Have you considered the general round-by-round damage output of this creature in relation to your players' expected HP values?

But honestly, without the character creation guidelines, the advice people give is gonna be all over the place. If your PCs are HD 60 epic characters with DvR 0, that's gonna be a substantially different set of base assumptions than if they're fresh-faced new epic characters at 21 HD (where the advice is: don't fight this deathtrap, or alternately cheese it to death). A full statblock of the creature you're building would also probably help.

The more detail you give, the better the advice you'll get.

[Bronk]

Oh ok, I've given most of the information.
In summary:

1) Breath weapon is white fire breath in a line. It will disintegrate anything it touches, those making the reflex save will instead take 36D12 damage. It burns hotter than normal fire, let's just call it "super fire". Spells such as energy immunity are useless against it, but Evasion, Improved Evasion or the like will reduce the damage.

2)Has blanket immunity to anything fire.
+3 or weaker weapons do their bonus in damage, +4 does normal.

3) Heals 100% HP from fire. Heals 50% HP from "super fire" sources such as a hellfire blast.

4)
It casts spells, but is only limited to Fire based spells, which are treated as "super fire".

5) These dragons have near animal intelligence and are therefore easily tricked.

That's it for the most part.

Second, Epic spellcasting wouldn't be banned. I know there should be a said limit to things, but outright ban? No.

I'm looking for advice on what a dragon slayer would tell the group what to do based on it's power (indirect combat). Using a Wall of Force is viable because that can block a breath weapon. The Mudslide+ Mud to Stone is another viable tactic to help combat it. Cooling the lava it swims in to slow down it's healing is another way. Blade Barrier may work to either provide cover. Or hopefully if it's SR is lowered enough a constant form of damage either forcing it out of the lava or dramitically lowering the rate it regains HP.

First of all, I would set up this dragon slayer properly. Who is he or she? Why aren't they the ones fighting the dragon? Is the NPC just really old but experienced? Why do the PC's need help? Have they never fought a dragon before?

These super dragons sound like your epic endgame, but what level are the PCs starting from? They might be able to work their way into dragon fighting with lesser foes and get a good idea of what their characters can do to better themselves that way. The dragon slayer NPC could start giving them advice before epic levels when they can still make changes to their builds.

For the super dragon itself... One of the things about Hellfire is that it isn't really fire at all, it's some kind of fire-like hell energy. Have you considered going for 'searing' fire damage from sandstorm instead? It doesn't disintegrate, but searing fire bypasses fire immunity, and the PCs could use that to affect the dragon. I know it heals from fire, but you might want to add 'heals from searing fire' too, just to be on the safe side on your end. Also, is it a spellcaster?

For the PCs?

The Ranger's favored enemy bonuses have already been mentioned, but there's also the 'girdle of hate' from Dragon 314 that flat out doubles the FE bonus against one of the FEs.

The Bard's 'doomspeak' feat sounds pretty neat. They also have the 'Irresistible Dance' spell, a no save touch spell.

It sounds like you're jacking the super dragon's spell resistance... if it's at all within reach of the PCs, they might be able to boost their caster levels high enough to affect it, or use the 'spell vulnerability' spell to drop it a bit.

Here's a list of 'no hit, no save, no SR' spells that they could use:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9207.0

I'm sure there are more spells out there that would could be added to the list via the 'irresistible spell' metamagic feat from Kingdom's of Kalamar as well.

The 'flash freeze' spell from Frostburn has the property of 'freezing stone', so depending on how much realism you have in your game, it could affect the lava the super dragon is in. It won't be able to heat it back up using it's breath weapon either, because you've said it disintegrates rock.

If the dragon is prevented from flying: If the ground is solid, the 'earthquake' spell has a flat 25% chance of knocking the dragon into a fissure, where it will be instantly killed with no save if it's still there at the end of the round. If the dragon is in liquid, the 'earthquake' spell instead has a chance of sinking and drowning the dragon.

Also, all of these spells could be cast from the safety of the ethereal plane using the 'transdimensional spell' metamagic feat from 'Unapproachable East'.

So, for example epic magic aside, an epic wizard could hang out safely in the ethereal, then lock everything down with a transdimensional 'dimensional lock' or a weirdstone if it's a caster, knock the dragon down with a high level irresistible transdimensional 'control winds', lock it down with a transdimensional acid fog, cast a transdimensional 'earthquake' until the dragon sinks under the lava it lives in, use a transdimensional 'flash freeze' spell from Frostburn to turn the lava to stone, then just wait for the dragon to suffocate.

Or they could do all that, but solidify the ground first, lock the dragon down, then wait for it to fall into a fissure and prevent it from leaving for one round.

Or, if it's swimming in lava, they could solidify it to trap it there, then follow through with the rest.

If everyone wants to get involved on the prime material plane, they could instead buff themselves up, wish themselves right next to it, and unload all of their most powerful attacks on it in a surprise round and, if it's still alive, probably most of the next round too, before it reacts. The mundanes should be protected against fire, have as many extra FE bonuses, touch attacks, cold damage, banes, and crit fishing whatevers as they can load up on. If it doesn't work, well, they can wish themselves away again afterwards. In fact, perhaps one of the epic spellcasters could give their familiar 'wish' and/or greater teleport as an epic familiar spell, and be ready to use it in case the dragon look like it's about to attack.

I would say that your PCs won't have much of a problem taking this guy down, no matter what, mostly because it's only a single monster... they will have a lot more actions to work with.

[vorpalvolta]

I don't think Wall of Force is gonna do much to block that particular breath weapon. It sounds like it would just burn a hole in it and kill whatever is on the other side

[Gamereaper]

Ok, so basically the party will need to grab flesh samples of a particular set of dragons. It is for a special enchantment that needs to be placed on some weapons to permanently kill another much smarter and on par or slightly tougher dragon. It's breath qeapon isn't on the same destructive level, doing a measly 10D6 or so. The enchanent basically royally screws it over.

They are all virtually identical mechanically, they hail from prehistoric times and have near deific power, they are however no more intelligent than normal animals. The party will have a tough time, but will have sufficient use of their surroundings to defeat them with the proper magical aid.

There is one for fire whose fire is so hot, it burns through virtually anything with ease. One for ice that freezes things in a fashion similar to a dunk in liquid nitrogen. One that has a half sonic, half lighting breath weapon that can control weather, among a few others.

To answer the question about the dragonslayer: The dragon slayer is still going to be able to help, but each party member will eventually be equal or stronger than him along with his slightly lower level squad. I tend to cap all but a handful of NPCs at level 15.


I don't think Wall of Force is gonna do much to block that particular breath weapon. It sounds like it would just burn a hole in it and kill whatever is on the other side

Wall of force specifically states that it blocks breath weapons though.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes. And wall of force is pretty much the only thing that will protect people, since you've said that elemental damage reduction and immunity effects are out (although a castle wall will help for a while, thanks for clarifying).

You've consistently ignored people telling you how much that messes with things, so I assume that's part of the challenge that the PCs have to figure out. I'll just advise that the NPC tell the PCs that the best way to deal with the beast is to prevent them from engaging with it in melee at all. I'd have him suggest that they get something that can outfly the dragons (magic carpet, big bird, or other, faster, dragon) and strafe the creatures with arrows of dragon slaying (perhaps +1, dragon slaying with greater magic weapon on it) and spells to drop the creatures SR, ground it, and finally something that can stop it from acting (tougher on dragons, but not impossible), so that its breath weapon is out of play. Then and only then can the melee people come out from force field effects.

[Beheld]

Wall of force specifically states that it blocks breath weapons though.

It also specifically is dispelled by Disintegrate effects. And since no breath weapons are actually disintegrates, there is no reason to think that it was meant to block disintegrate breath weapons.

So it seems just as likely that the breath weapon blows through the wall and still kills everyone.

[ThisIsZen]

Gamereaper, I'd like to ask you again to give us your character creation rules, along with the level you expect your party to engage this dragon at. The advice you get is all over the place until we know exactly what power level the PCs are expected to be playing at.

That being said, since the dragonslayer is supposedly capped at 15 HD and the party isn't intended to initially be more powerful than them, I think I can at least make something of a guess, in which case: You do realize that a sub-20 group engaging this dragon will die to the breath weapon damage if they make their reflex save, right? An average HP pool for a level 15 Barbarian with 20 Con, the best-case scenario for HP, is 172.5. Your breath weapon deals a minimum of 36 damage, an average of 126, and a maximum of 360 on a successful save.

The worst-case scenario, assuming a decent Con investiture (Con 16), is a d4 HD class, who has 82.5 average HP to play with and will die instantly well over half the time even if they make their save. This is just from the breath weapon, not even bringing anything else into question. You could TPK your party in the surprise round if everyone rolls bad saves, and possibly even if they don't.

[BearonVonMu]

I have found that Orb of Force is a fantastically simple way of bringing down a dragon.
Ranged touch attacks, no save, no SR, fairly good damage at low enough levels that metamagic can work its wonders.
It's the basis of the Mailman build, really.
Mailmen kill dragons.

[Bronk]

...they are however no more intelligent than normal animals.

I think this and and knowledge of the super dragon's insurmountable spell resistance is all the info your PCs will need to defeat your foe.

With an animal intelligence (Int=2 maximum), your super dragon will be one-shotted by a single 'ray of stupidity' spell (1d4+1 Int damage).

To overcome the dragon's spell resistance, cast the spell as a supernatural ability. SR is only effective against Spells and Spell like abilities. From the SRD section on spell resistance:


Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.

I'm sure there are other ways, but one way to do this is for one of the casters to take levels in Dweomerkeeper, and designate that spell as one of those that they can cast as a supernatural ability, one at each odd level.

Hitting it shouldn't be a problem, because it is huge and too dumb to cast spells like 'scintillating scales' to up its touch AC.

You'd still have to get close enough to hit it, but you could sneak in by various means, or use the 'transdimensional spell' feat from the ethereal plane.

You'd also still have to beat it's will save, but you could also use the 'irresistible spell' feat, or something like 'mind fog' might help.


Edit: It looks like White and Silver Dragons, Winter Wolves, and Chraal all have supernatural cold breath abilities that could also be useful, if you wanted to brute force the super dragon's death.

[Leewei]

It also specifically is dispelled by Disintegrate effects. And since no breath weapons are actually disintegrates, there is no reason to think that it was meant to block disintegrate breath weapons.

So it seems just as likely that the breath weapon blows through the wall and still kills everyone.

Make the breath attack dispel but not bypass all active force effects. This will give PCs a fighting chance, and will give caster PCs a very important role against an enemy capable of ignoring most of their magic.

[Gamereaper]

Yes. And wall of force is pretty much the only thing that will protect people, since you've said that elemental damage reduction and immunity effects are out (although a castle wall will help for a while, thanks for clarifying).

You've consistently ignored people telling you how much that messes with things, so I assume that's part of the challenge that the PCs have to figure out. I'll just advise that the NPC tell the PCs that the best way to deal with the beast is to prevent them from engaging with it in melee at all. I'd have him suggest that they get something that can outfly the dragons (magic carpet, big bird, or other, faster, dragon) and strafe the creatures with arrows of dragon slaying (perhaps +1, dragon slaying with greater magic weapon on it) and spells to drop the creatures SR, ground it, and finally something that can stop it from acting (tougher on dragons, but not impossible), so that its breath weapon is out of play. Then and only then can the melee people come out from force field effects.

Immunity effects will provide half damage resistance, resistance that equals or beats the full damage (from it's spell like abilities for example) will also prevent half.

Yes, this combat is not meant to be a straightforward encounter. It is more like a puzzle of sorts. They have to kill it, but they have little chance of direct combat. There were a bunch of awesome suggestions presented here that are viable. The dragon slayer is there to help and provide their Wisdom and experience to the players.

One thing that will help, but make it difficult at the same time is that it rests in a pool of lava (and heals that damage it would normally take). That also means it is for the most part it could be considered immobile.



It also specifically is dispelled by Disintegrate effects. And since no breath weapons are actually disintegrates, there is no reason to think that it was meant to block disintegrate breath weapons.

So it seems just as likely that the breath weapon blows through the wall and still kills everyone.

It's not a disintegrate effect though, it's fire damage. The only reason it disintegrates things is because it's so hot, not because it's a disintegrate effect. Like if a person was on the surface of the sun for a split second, they're dust because the heat was so intense. Basically, the save is to see if you went deer in headlights or dodged it. The damage you take is from the radiant heat.

As for the walls, I did say that I would allow them to provide cover, but they lose thickness every time.