Elan and Nale's Parentage, Take II - Rich?

[Alias]

In a thread I bumped into because of the quote archive I ran into this exchange.



We know Elan spared Nale in their first encounter because he believed he was only the good twin because he'd been raised by his mother and Nale was only evil because he was raised by Tarquin. But is he right? After all, little Nale was born with a goatee, and he was prone to bonking little Elan on the head. If their positions had been reversed, would Nale be good and Elan evil, would they be their current alignments, or would they both perhaps have ended up True Neutral?

To which Rich answered


I can't answer that one without giving away events that have yet to be revealed. Sorry.

EDIT: However, I will say that you're misinterpreting events if you think Elan spared Nale only because "he believed he was only the good twin because he'd been raised by his mother and Nale was only evil because he was raised by Tarquin." Elan didn't believe that; he had no reason to think his father was Evil at all until he met him, and thus no reason to think that Nale's alignment was not his own doing. Elan spared Nale because Elan is Good, and to Elan, Good spares people rather than killing them when they have the option. Note that he also spared Kubota in the same way, though he was a bit angrier about it.

It is now 5 years later and Blood in the Family has played out. So can a more elaborate answer be given at this time? Just curious.

[grandpheonix]

Holy crap, I forgot all about this! PLEASE ANSWER, GOOOD SIR GIANT, HALLOWED BE THY NAME. *Raises hands for guidance* PLEASE HEAR AND ANSWER, GOODLY GIANT.

But for reals though, I get that Elan is good, and as the hero, would always work to spare his enemies, especially if they have a name. It was only after he found out about his dad doing bad things that he started to wonder about it (especially on the airship).

Edit: Also, is Tarquin his last name? Making Elans Mom Mrs. Tarquin?

[Gift Jeraff]

He can't spoil the reveal that Elan's Mother is a celestial yet.

[Ruck]

In a thread I bumped into because of the quote archive I ran into this exchange.

Just curious, when were the quotes in OP taken? It's probably important as to how much of BRitF had played out to know whether the answer has come or not yet.

I do find it neat that Elan himself speculated on that question after Nale died.

If it hasn't come yet:

I suspect it's related to whatever reason Sabine was sent to look after and groom Nale-- something about him specifically is innately Evil.

I always thought the scene of Nale hitting Elan in his soft undeveloped baby skull in DCF provided the answer to that, although it may have been a throwaway joke in the early days of the comic.

[Psyren]

Given that the comic suggests even baby black dragons aren't born irredeemably evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html), I'm not seeing the value in or likelihood of portraying baby Nale that way. My educated guess is that the Giant leans a bit more on the "nurture" side of the NvN debate.

[veti]

He can't spoil the reveal that Elan's Mother is a celestial yet.

Whoa, you're saying that Haley is Elan's half-sister? Or his mother? I'm so confused.

[KorvinStarmast]

Whoa, you're saying that Haley is Elan's half-sister? Or his mother? I'm so confused.

Do you mean Celia?

[theasl]

Do you mean Celia?

No, there's a theory that Haley is actually a celestial. Seriously. Well, maybe not quite entirely seriously, but you know what i mean.

[Pyrous]

Whoa, you're saying that Haley is Elan's half-sister? Or his mother? I'm so confused.

Haley is Elan's mother and Elan is his own father. Tarquin is his last name. But they lose their memory during the time travel.

"If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, I get to be a legend."

No matter what, he gets his happy ending.

[dtilque]

Haley is Elan's mother and Elan is his own father. Tarquin is his last name. But they lose their memory during the time travel.

So everyone else is a zombie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_You_Zombies)?

PS Also Elan = Haley (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Girdle_of_Feminity/Masculinity)

[Pyrous]

Elan is his own father

"Elan! Elan, help me! And yourself"

[NerdyKris]

The quote was from 11-18-2011. Strip 815 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html) was the most recent strip at that time according to the discussion thread index. So Nale had just attacked the Order and fled from Malak, while Roy and Tarquin were traveling to the palace. Nale and Tarquin had not yet spoken on panel. So about halfway through the book. Rich is almost certainly referring to the manner Tarquin treated Nale as a pawn in his story and Nale's eventual rant against his father, which both give insight into their shared history. Tarquin hadn't yet been revealed as the control freak who murders his own son for not doing what he wanted.

[137beth]

He can't spoil the reveal that Elan's Mother is a celestial yet.


Haley is Elan's mother and Elan is his own father. Tarquin is his last name. But they lose their memory during the time travel.

"If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, I get to be a legend."

No matter what, he gets his happy ending.

No guys, it's obvious: Elan is a time-traveling Dumbledore!

[archon_huskie]

No, there's a theory that Haley is actually a celestial. Seriously. Well, maybe not quite entirely seriously, but you know what i mean.

Yes it was serious. I was one of them.

The reasoning were

As celestial or half celestial Haley would be a closer opposite of Sabine.

Her tattoo on her back initially looked like scar where wings might have been.

She had a secret that she had never shared,

During her time with her cryptogram speech, She started to say "I'm not exactly fully . . ." (the theory was that she wanted to finish with human)

For a long time, Her mother had never been shown in panel

The theory lost popularity as
Liner Guild moved away from evil opposites
Tattoo was confirmed as I Heart Money
She stopped keeping secrets but didn't tell Elan about mix heritiage
She's not fully something else that has been implied
Her mother was shown on panel as an ordinary human.

And mostly it makes no sense to introduce her celestial lineage this late in the story.

[ti'esar]

I think the angel in comic 193 having a palette swap of Haley's head and hair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html) may have also helped fuel it.

[137beth]

Yes it was serious. I was one of them.

The reasoning were

As celestial or half celestial Haley would be a closer opposite of Sabine.

Her tattoo on her back initially looked like scar where wings might have been.

She had a secret that she had never shared,

During her time with her cryptogram speech, She started to say "I'm not exactly fully . . ." (the theory was that she wanted to finish with human)

For a long time, Her mother had never been shown in panel

The theory lost popularity as
Liner Guild moved away from evil opposites
Tattoo was confirmed as I Heart Money
She stopped keeping secrets but didn't tell Elan about mix heritiage
She's not fully something else that has been implied
Her mother was shown on panel as an ordinary human.

And mostly it makes no sense to introduce her celestial lineage this late in the story.

I think it also partly stemmed from one sentence in the DCF commentary:

Honestly, though, Sabine hasn’t really yet shown all her true colors and neither has Haley, so I’ll keep quiet about another key way in which they are opposed.

However, in the meta-commentary from the PDF, the Giant revealed what that sentence actually referred to:

Oh, and regarding that “key way” that Haley and Sabine are
opposed that I’m hinting about here: I don’t want to spoil future
books in case you haven’t read them yet, but let’s just say it involves
whether or not the character in question is also working for another
organization, and whether or not their respective leaders think they are.

[Chronos]

One other piece of circumstantial evidence about Haley: She uses a longbow. Rogues are proficient in shortbows, but not longbows. Now, she could have picked up proficiency via a feat, and longbows are a little better than short, but only a little, so it would be a waste of a precious feat slot. Unless, of course, she has free proficiency with martial weapons from some source.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Haley is Elan's mother and Elan is his own father. Tarquin is his last name. But they lose their memory during the time travel.

"If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, I get to be a legend."

No matter what, he gets his happy ending.

Ummm, thats really f***ed up. Haley is 28. Elan is 21. That means Haley must have been 7 when she had Elan, and that's just not possible with the female anatomy. Also, in the flashback when Nale and Elan talked about their childhood, Elan's mom was blond. I know Haley could have dyed her hair, but when she talks about her hair color (I forget the comic, but it happened) she likes her plain orange hair. But I DO see a part of the theory: Haley is chaotic good. When Nale questions why they split up, it is revealed that Elan's mother is chaotic good. But the other part, the fact that Elan's father is Lawful Evil (Tarquin) Does not fit because Elan is "Lawful Stupid" in the adventure game, and is definitely nowhere near being evil. After his recent actions of leaving his father in the desert and not pulling him up, he could have become neutral. But another part that people have obviously missed is that he does not want Nale to die. He would not have wanted to stab him at the drop of a hat. Plus, The Oracle Of Sunken Valley says that he'll have a happy ending. Becoming a cruel tyrant and not having haley as his wife/girlfriend is definitely not a "happy" ending in his book.

Edit: I just read the part about "not remembering" in time travel. Unless there's some weird thing where the world Blackwing saw through the rift was the friggin doctor who reality, I don't think there's any sort of time travel device in 3.5e, let alone D&D. I don't see how this would be something they would want to do, traveling back in time. Unless they saw some sort of rune, and they pressed it for no reason whatsoever, and noone was there to stop them, that COULD happen but by what I've seen here its just a very very low chance of this happening. Also, lots of people will not like this ending if it ends up like this. Including me.

[Aeliren]

Haley is 28. Elan is 21.
Actually, Haley is more around 25, and Elan is more around 22.

[Pyrous]

Ummm, thats really f***ed up. Haley is 28. Elan is 21. That means Haley must have been 7 when she had Elan, and that's just not possible with the female anatomy.

"They" implies that Haley travel back in time with Elan. I'm not that sick.

I see that you read the time traveling part, but as this is the opening of your post I have to respond. Put a strikethrough when you edit your post.


Also, in the flashback when Nale and Elan talked about their childhood, Elan's mom was blond. I know Haley could have dyed her hair, but when she talks about her hair color (I forget the comic, but it happened) she likes her plain orange hair. But I DO see a part of the theory: Haley is chaotic good. When Nale questions why they split up, it is revealed that Elan's mother is chaotic good.

Now that you see part of the theory I'm going to walk you through the rest:


But the other part, the fact that Elan's father is Lawful Evil (Tarquin) Does not fit because Elan is "Lawful Stupid" in the adventure game, and is definitely nowhere near being evil. After his recent actions of leaving his father in the desert and not pulling him up, he could have become neutral. But another part that people have obviously missed is that he does not want Nale to die. He would not have wanted to stab him at the drop of a hat. Plus, The Oracle Of Sunken Valley says that he'll have a happy ending. Becoming a cruel tyrant and not having haley as his wife/girlfriend is definitely not a "happy" ending in his book.


Elan lost his memories and started adventuring with the Vector Legion. He became a twisted version of himself who does find that either being a king or becoming a legend as the main villain in the best story EVER (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) qualify as happy endings.



Edit: I just read the part about "not remembering" in time travel. Unless there's some weird thing where the world Blackwing saw through the rift was the friggin doctor who reality, I don't think there's any sort of time travel device in 3.5e, let alone D&D. I don't see how this would be something they would want to do, traveling back in time. Unless they saw some sort of rune, and they pressed it for no reason whatsoever, and noone was there to stop them, that COULD happen but by what I've seen here its just a very very low chance of this happening.

Maybe in the last fight in the final gate some sort of wild-magic effect releases a space-time wave that sends them back in time. Sadly, they arrive in different places, and he potentially-paradoxical nature of time travel causes them to lose a lot of their memories.

Elan remembers a name: Tarquin, which he thinks it's how he was called. Tarquin feels a urge for a great story, and starts adventuring, that's when he meets the Vector Legion. While adventuring with them, he becomes a twisted version of himself, one that wants narrative perfection at all cost, with him as a *tagonist (an- or pro-).

During his adventures, he meets a girl: Elan's Mother (Haley). They both feel that they belong to each other. Tarquin stops adventuring and start a life with Elan's Mother, who gives birth to twin boys: Elan and Nale. However, because Tarquin is a twisted version of the man Haley once loved, their marriage fails.

When he accepts that the marriage is over, not knowing what to do, he remembers that he has a reason for him to fight in the Western Continent. He doesn't remembers what is the reason exactly, but he knows that Nale is involved. He takes his son with him and goes to the west.

The rest is history.


Also, lots of people will not like this ending if it ends up like this. Including me.

This is a joke theory, prompted by veti's response of Gift Jeraff post above. It should have become clear in my second post, when a deliberately cut Tarquin's quote in the middle of his sentence and used it as evidence.

And, in the spirit of the joke: You are not Elan, there is no prophecy that the story will have a happy ending for you.

[Aeliren]

I get that it's a joke theory, but there are a few things I'd like to point out:

Haley is a redhead.
Elan and Nale were both blond.
In his youth, Tarquin had brown hair.
Elan's mother is blonde.


For this theory to work, "Tarquin" would have had to dye his hair brown and "Elan's mother" would have had to dye her hair blonde. The twins would have gotten the gene from their father instead, though it would have appeared as though they got it from their mother.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why use dye when they can just use magic? Prestidigitation is a cantrip, for Reorx's sake.

[Alias]

Rich?

5char

[Rakoa]

Rich?

5char

Trust me, he's seen the thread by now. If he's neglected to comment, he has a reason for it, and I doubt that further commenting will encourage one from him.

[NerdyKris]

Well, the question was already answered. It was clearly referring to the second half of the book getting into that exact relationship.

[Bedinsis]

He can't spoil the reveal that Elan's Mother is a celestial yet.

I believe speculation is supposed to be in spoiler tags.

Besides, we all know that Elan's Mother is dead. An upcoming story line will be about how Elan has failed to realize this for all the time he has been out adventuring and how he was childish enough to believe her comforting lies when he first headed out. This will add a sense of personal tragedy to a character that started as the obvious comic relief yet has now evolved beyond such simple classifications.

I don't think the above theory is impossible or even that far-out but I hope it is false.