Vicious Mockery, worth it

[FabulousFizban]

At 5th level, the DPR from vicious mockery begins to outstrip that of the shortbow. However, the save means there is a chance the target will take NO damage.

Given this, is vicious mockery worth one of my bard's 3 cantrip slots at 5th level?

EDIT: What is the Bard's best option for reliable ranged DPR?

[MadBear]

At 5th level, the DPR from vicious mockery begins to outstrip that of the shortbow. However, the save means there is a chance the target will take NO damage.

Given this, is vicious mockery worth one of my bard's 3 cantrip slots at 5th level?

Depends. Do you like insulting the enemy so thoroughly that they literally die? If so yes.

Otherwise, I'd probably find another cantrip, since it's not particularly good at dealing damage.

[CyberThread]

Your choice, how many arrows can you use compared to spell slots?

[mabriss lethe]

God yes. Vicious Mockery is one of the best cantrips there is, aside from eldritch blast. But you don't want it for its damage potential. Advantage and Disadvantage are HUGE factors in game play. Being able to force an opponent to make a save or be at a Disadvantage for his next attack is a wonderful debuff, that just so happens to deal damage as an extra perk.

[KorvinStarmast]

God yes. Vicious Mockery is one of the best cantrips there is, aside from eldritch blast. But you don't want it for its damage potential. Advantage and Disadvantage are HUGE factors in game play. Being able to force an opponent to make a save or be at a Disadvantage for his next attack is a wonderful debuff, that just so happens to deal damage as an extra perk.
This. our bard has helped our group immensely using this for the disadvantage feature when fighting big, dumb brutes like giants.
Great way to avoid damage (more frequent giant misses).

[JumboWheat01]

Depends. Do you like insulting the enemy so thoroughly that they literally die?

If you answer no to this question, then what the heck are you doing playing a bard? Seriously, Vicious Mockery is just awesome on the sheer fun factor alone. DM got a favorite boss mook? Insult the CRAP out of it. And then insult it some more as it misses its slap on you to silence you because it has disadvantage on the roll.

Still, Bards tend to be more Dexterity focused, so if you really need ranged damage, a light crossbow's the way to go, as it's a 1d8 damage, while your other main ranged options, a shortbow and a hand crossbow, are 1d6. If you go Valor, though, you can grab a heavy crossbow at 1d10, though you might be better off with a longbow at 1d8 unless you want to take the Crossbow Expert feat, since a Valor Bard gets an extra attack.

If you go Lore bard, at 6, you can snag the Eldritch Blast cantrip, which is the best blasty cantrip. It's 1d10 naturally, goes up to 1d10 x4, all with ranged spell attacks (not saves,) and it deals Force damage, which is very rarely resisted or out-right prevented. You can eventually get this as any other bard, at level 10, but if you go Valor, you're probably not focusing on your Charisma quite as much, so it's definitely better for Lore.

[Finieous]

I think it's the best combat cantrip in the game, but not for "consistent at-will DPR." I think that's not really the bard's thing.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

At 5th level, the DPR from vicious mockery begins to outstrip that of the shortbow. However, the save means there is a chance the target will take NO damage.

Given this, is vicious mockery worth one of my bard's 3 cantrip slots at 5th level?

EDIT: What is the Bard's best option for reliable ranged DPR?

Valor Bard, poach spells off the ranger list for reliable DPR. When you get in close start using VM.

Note

Bards don't have to be this silly class that prances around the battlefield. This is one way to play them but there are others.

In a big fan of Half-Orc Bardbarian builds.

[MeeposFire]

At 5th level, the DPR from vicious mockery begins to outstrip that of the shortbow. However, the save means there is a chance the target will take NO damage.

Given this, is vicious mockery worth one of my bard's 3 cantrip slots at 5th level?

EDIT: What is the Bard's best option for reliable ranged DPR?

As for the no damage bit just remember having a spell attack that attacks a save for no damage is effectively the same as attacking AC because if you miss (effectively the same as when the enemy makes a save) you deal no damage. While the math is not exactly even (due to things like criticals and the fact AC and saves do not increase the same) saves and AC are really two sides of the same coin just differentiates who rolls the dice.

So if you are worried about missing for no damage then both are the same in that regard.


For a lore bard I vote for VM.

[MaxWilson]

This. our bard has helped our group immensely using this for the disadvantage feature when fighting big, dumb brutes like giants.
Great way to avoid damage (more frequent giant misses).

Spending your action to do trivial damage and disadvantage one of a giant's two attacks is not great*. From a pure action economy perspective you're barely breaking even, and it might even be a net loss depending on how many giants there are.

From a fun factor perspective, though, insulting someone to death is just pure gold. To paraphrase a prior poster, if you don't enjoy that sort of thing you should probably be playing a bardlock instead of a pure spoony bard.

* Though disadvantage certainly does combo well with Cutting Words.

[Pex]

At 5th level, the DPR from vicious mockery begins to outstrip that of the shortbow. However, the save means there is a chance the target will take NO damage.

Given this, is vicious mockery worth one of my bard's 3 cantrip slots at 5th level?

EDIT: What is the Bard's best option for reliable ranged DPR?

When you attack with a shortbow there's a chance you miss, doing no damage and wasting an arrow.

[Finieous]

Spending your action to do trivial damage and disadvantage one of a giant's two attacks is not great*. From a pure action economy perspective you're barely breaking even, and it might even be a net loss depending on how many giants there are.


Yeah, if you're in a tough fight against giants, a cantrip might not be enough. You might need to expend some resources. So you stick bane on them, then use vicious mockery and Cutting Words to lock them down. In other words, it's a great at-will against scrubs and offers great synergy in tougher fights.

[JellyPooga]

Is it worth it?

No.

Vicious Mockery is a combat Cantrip that relies more on your opponent than your own abilities to do anything. The active roller is the one that holds the cards and Vicious Mockery puts those cards in the hands of your opponent. You've no control over the Saves your opponent has; from the modifier itself to abilities that grant Dis/Advantage or re-rolls. Granted, the same can be said for AC and attacks, but you generally have a good idea if your opponent has high AC...just look for the amount of metal he's wearing. The same cannot be said of his Wisdom or Charisma Save.

Can it be useful? Yes, no doubt; under the right circumstances it can be an excellent use of resources (yes, time is a resource).

Is it "great"? In and of itself, no. It's about as useful as Firebolt all told; less damage, situational rider effect.

Valour Bards get Extra Attack at 6th, giving them better DPR with a Shortbow, let alone a better weapon. Lore Bards have Cutting Words, which has a similar (but more reliable*) result as Vicious Mockery and is a Reaction, not an Action.

Vicious Mockery is an entertaining Cantrip, I agree, but it's not an auto-include, not by a long shot. I'd rather pack the best ranged weapon I can use and take a utility Cantrip instead.

*it's always a penalty, Disadvantage may not be

[Shaofoo]

Is it worth it, yes

I loved insulting enemies and hurting their feelings, even a tree and golem stood no chance over my sick burns.

Even though I always carried a crossbow just in case I always used Vicious Mockery as my bread and butter.

But if you are looking for numbers magic damage and DPR contest do not go hand in hand. The only thing that can ever be considered is Warlock 2 and Eldritch Blast and corner cases on specific spells.

Also Vicious Mockery is the ONLY damaging Cantrip a Bard gets on his own. So basically it is either arrows or that for ranged damage, a Bard has no other options.

So it is the best spell to play around, not so good if you are looking to optimize.