[PF] oh dear...the antipaladin in my party wants to be MORE evil

[Frosty]

Okay, a few quick questions here to help the antipaladin be possibly more evil (he regularly eats souls already).

He wants the party wizard to cast Trap the Soul on a fetus. This raises a whole bunch of questions...

1) Does anyone have line of effect to the fetus, or does the mother provide total cover?

2) how much would the gem required to be worth to trap a fetus? Aka how much HD does a fetus have? What Will Save does it get?

3) when trap the soul is successful, the material body disappears. I guess that means the women isn't pregnant anymore? If the gem is later broken, does the fetus magically reappear in the woman's womb, no matter where she is, alove or dead? Assuming the woman is alive, would the pregnancy just continue as if nothing had happened, and without health complications?

4) will Psychopomps be sent after the antipaladin?

[KillianHawkeye]

I think the answer to all of your questions is: "No. Just, no. I mean... WHY?? Just... go home and rethink your life choices. :smallfrown::smallsigh:"

[Frosty]

He player is REALLY getting into the evil RP. It is an evil Campaign after all

[Geddy2112]

I am not even going to touch 1 through 3, for various reasons. Your antipaladin is...a pretty sick MF.

I can answer #4 for sure, which is a very strong yes. In addition to psychopomps, any other good aligned creature and outsider will try to end this antipaladin outright.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Inevitables. Inevitables everywhere. That's the only reasonable response to this.

[ThisIsZen]

Man, I thought I couldn't be more opposed to the Antipaladin being Dumb Random Evil personified, and yet here we are.

I wonder how many deities would be offended by this simultaneously?

[DarkSoul]

1: He needs to have line of effect. I'm sure he can figure something out, being a depraved sword-swinger and all...

2: 1/2 HD. Spend accordingly.

3: In order:


Yes but #1 may... simplify this question.
No, the spell doesn't say anything about the body reforming in its original spot. I would rule it appears by the gem.
No, see #1.


4: Yes. Send everyone after him.

[Alex12]

Honestly, this...doesn't seem all that bad. I mean, by antipaladin standards, anyway. I mean, it's a fetus. Given historical infant mortality rates, and that most people don't have access to adventurer-grade wealth and healing magic, and so are probably at about preindustrial levels of infant mortality, well, babies die all the time.

As to the actual answers to your questions, I'll be assuming it's a human fetus, just because we know how human babies develop and whatnot. According to Google, fetal brains are at least somewhat functional in the second trimester, enough to kick and taste and suchlike. I'd say once they're at that point, they count as creatures, as opposed to things that are part of another creature. I assume elven/dwarven/whathaveyou babies develop similarly (dunno about kobolds and other egg-layers, though)
As for your questions.
I'd argue that you'd have line of effect to the fetus on the basis that pressure suits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pressure-suit) don't break line of effect, a few layers of the mother's flesh isn't enough to do it. Or I guess you could be a little more intrusive, in ways that include (but aren't limited to) surgery.
A fetus won't have more than 1 HD, and probably has fractional HD. I'd also call shenanigans if the Will save bonus of a fetus were any higher than 1, and probably would more likely be 0 or lower, due to the whole not having a fully-developed brain or nervous system. Besides, babies are like the opposite of wise, given the things they try and eat. Also, I'll note that there are other things going on internally, including a placenta and assorted hormonal changes. I'd guess that having the fetus vanish from the abdomen (even if no cutting is involved), there'd probably be, at minimum, something like the symptoms of a miscarriage. Assuming, of course, that someone experiencing the tender mercies of an antipaladin in an evil campaign has to worry about long-term health problems..
The fetus would reform, but, as with adults hit with Trap the Soul, it doesn't put them back where they came from. And, since the body actually reforms, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't age while trapped in the gem. You'd end up with a fetus lying on the ground and almost certainly dying.
Psychopomps probably wouldn't have a huge interest in this particular act, since they seem mostly concerned with end-of-life stuff, rather than beginnings. Also, if there aren't psychopomp hit squads out for the antipaladin's blood due to the soul-eating thing, or, for that matter, any of the other dozens of things that mess with souls (like Trap the Soul itself, or fiends in general), then this particular thing probably won't attract their attention.

[Kantolin]

1) Does anyone have line of effect to the fetus, or does the mother provide total cover?

The mother would provide cover.


2) how much would the gem required to be worth to trap a fetus? Aka how much HD does a fetus have? What Will Save does it get?

I wouldn't bother statting a fetus, nor really rolling dice for a will save. I'd also default it to a 1HD minimum, just to have a lower cap.


I guess that means the women isn't pregnant anymore?

Indeed!


If the gem is later broken, does the fetus magically reappear in the woman's womb, no matter where she is, alove or dead?

Nope - the spell doesn't seem to track where the creature was. I'd also guesstimate 'next to the gem' as a poster above me suggested.


Assuming the woman is alive, would the pregnancy just continue as if nothing had happened, and without health complications?

If the gem was in the same spot such that the fetus would be in the right spot, still no. If you input a fetus into someone's body, it is immensely unlikely to work for either of them. (Although since the mother's body wouldn't automatically reject it, you could possibly use something like regeneration and a rather large heal check).


4) will Psychopomps be sent after the antipaladin?

(he regularly eats souls already)

A wide array of people should already be after him, so in the overall scheme of things this shouldn't really alter that fact.

[Deophaun]

1) Does anyone have line of effect to the fetus, or does the mother provide total cover?

Yes and yes. Yes, the mother provides total cover. Yes, the mother has line of effect to the fetus. Magic Jar time.

[Alex12]

Yes and yes. Yes, the mother provides total cover. Yes, the mother has line of effect to the fetus. Magic Jar time.

Gonna point out that I can think of at least two, maybe three ways (depending on how incorporealness interacts) to have line of effect to the fetus.

[Honjuden]

Does a fetus even have a soul before it is born?

[Spore]

To avoid this stuff, I'd rule that a fetus is not its separate entity. If you want to trap the soul of the mother, fine, the kid's an added bonus but you shouldn't be able to target the kid. In the same way you shouldn't be able to disintegrate only a liver, or someone's hair (it is dead material after all).


will Psychopomps be sent after the antipaladin?

If he is played this way, psychopomps aren't the only ones that are in for his head.

[Frosty]

To avoid this stuff, I'd rule that a fetus is not its separate entity. If you want to trap the soul of the mother, fine, the kid's an added bonus but you shouldn't be able to target the kid. In the same way you shouldn't be able to disintegrate only a liver, or someone's hair (it is dead material after all). But the fetus isn't just dead material.

Does a fetus even have a soul before it is born?That's another implicit question. your thoughts?


If he is played this way, psychopomps aren't the only ones that are in for his head.Which group of outsiders would be the first in line? Forget about mortal authorities for the time being.

[Spore]

Frosty, dude. Think about it. Unless it is a one-player campaign there should be players that are NOT okay with this kind of gore. Please ask your other PLAYERS if they are fine with things like that. The PLAYERS not the CHARACTERS. In fact I can think of several evil characters that would be completely disgusted with his behaviour.

I know Antipaladins are the archetype of evil and chaos but this brings up topics I would never want to discuss on a gaming table.

[Serafina]

If you don't want this to happen, it is VERY easy to just rule "souls are handed out at birth". If you want a 100% specific point, take "when the umbilical cord is cut" or such.
Religious claims that fetuses have souls are historically rather new, and mostly just came up in regards to the modern abortion debate.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily stop the player from doing similar evil things, including trapping the soul of new-born babies. That's the issue with having cartoonishly evil characters in a campaign - rationally, unless 1 HD souls are actually extremely valuable, most Evil characters won't have any interest in doing such a thing. At least it's a waste of resources and draws way too much attention. An Evil character should have a realistic motivation too - arguably more so than a Good character, because "make everyone Safe/Happy/Peaceful" is at least a worthwhile goal to strive for (its desirable to the character), while "destroy everything" or "piss everyone off" isn't. That's just not in the interest of any human being, including violent psychopaths.

Explain that - outside of the game - to your player.

[Frosty]

Serafina you make some very good points. Of course I'm not sure the character is rational to begin with. I mean, he was in Hell, got a soul by doing some tough service to a devil, and he decides to EAT the soul just because he could. The rest of the party did not participate.

I think his goal is to be as evil as possible and impress evil planar beings so that he could transform directly into a powerful fiend in the afterlife. I'm surprised he's not going for demon grafts yet...

So, is this why evil campaigns don't work?

[Spore]

I think his goal is to be as evil as possible and impress evil planar beings so that he could transform directly into a powerful fiend in the afterlife. I'm surprised he's not going for demon grafts yet...

You don't impress almost any demon with a puny 1 HD soul, especially a weak one like an infant. Remember that some patron (be it a single demon lord or several) have invested some of their power in order to give his character those powers. If all they get for it are some frail souls your Antipaladin will be scolded at best.

I wouldn't use the psychopomp route on that problem. Rather, let a demonic envoy pop up - like a Kalavakus, the slavers of the Abyss - and let them ask where the endless stream of souls is. Because surely this puny kid's soul isn't the only thing you wanted to send down there. Let him act annoyed by the audacity the AP showed by daring to send a single CR soul down the Pit.

Encourage him to do evil things on a vast scale rather than diabolical commoner slaying. He shouldn't return if he hasn't razed an entire city OR slain a celestial being and absorbed its essence.

[Serafina]

Good is Selfless.
Evil is Selfish.

Selfish Evil works very well for a campaign. Sure, "Evil" can also mean other things - but consider most stories with evil characters (including villains and antagonists). They always have a understandable goal - the main difference to good characters being that they're completely selfish about it and abandon morality to achieve it. Sure, lots of times it's a very shallow goal - such as "rule the world", but at least its there. Even villains who want to destroy everything - such as Thanos - usually want it for another reason (in Thanos case, getting deaths affection).
Just wanting to destroy is boring. Just wanting to be Evil for Evils sake is boring.

That's not to say that you can't have a very destructive character, or a character who does evil things just because. But that needs a proper motivation.
And of course, like everything else in roleplaying games, it should be fine for everyone on the table. If it isn't, well that's too bad.

[Platymus Pus]

Antipaladin seems rather quaint. I think he's just tugging on player's first world strings.
Ask the paladin if he feels like sacrificing them both, more vile than that.

[ATHATH]

Honestly, I don't think this is actually that much worse than eating a normal soul. The baby's soul is less developed, and the mother might actually WANT an abortion.

[Frosty]

Antipaladin seems rather quaint. I think he's just tugging on player's first world strings.
Ask the paladin if he feels like sacrificing them both, more vile than that.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

[Deophaun]

Good is Selfless.
Evil Neutral is Selfish.

Fixed. Evil goes way beyond self interest, otherwise every animal would be classified as evil.

[vorpalvolta]

Fixed. Evil goes way beyond self interest, otherwise every animal would be classified as evil.

Animals should really just be unaligned.

[Xuldarinar]

Not the most relevant, being in part because it is from 3.5 and not PF in of itself, but maybe this would help;


The unholy scion template explicitly applies (including its mental ability score adjustments) before birth. Because of this, a fetus is a "valid creature" under 3.5. I would assume this would remain the case under pathfinder. Getting line of effect, on the other hand, I'm sure you can work out various methods as to how one can accomplish that (with or without weaponry).


More relevant is this;

Pharasma believes, and perhaps others, that souls inhabit unborn children. However other sources note souls enter children when they are born. So, its either that Pharasma is wrong, one source book is wrong, or to reconcile the discrepancy; Souls may enter a body at any time between conception and the moment birth, rather than at a specific moment.


And.. I'm in a way all for this. Evil guy wants to be evil, it makes sense. But.. I think they should figure out what benefit it is to them, other than for the sake of it (or "for the evilz.")

[Deophaun]

Animals should really just be unaligned.
Perhaps, but as many animals have a Charisma of 10 and don't really fall below a 4, they would have to be mapped on a Selfless/Selfish-based alignment chart. Only a Charisma of -- would be unaligned.

[Frosty]

Dogs and Dolphins are more selfless than cats, for example.

[Âmesang]

Suddenly I feel like statting out Fillerbunny's "friend," Aborto: "It don't look like no baby I ever—OH GOD IT'S MOVING!!…—ever seen."

Perhaps have the antipaladin face this little bundle of joy (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44165_C5_atropal.jpg)?

[Deophaun]

Dogs and Dolphins are more selfless than cats, for example.
Dogs, yes. Dolphins, however, are just looking to @#$% you or murder your children in a game of underwater catch while they have you distracted. They are CE to cats' LE.

[Xuldarinar]

Dogs, yes. Dolphins, however, are just looking to @#$% you or murder your children in a game of underwater catch while they have you distracted. They are CE to cats' LE.

A consequence of them (porpoises in general) being self-aware or near-self aware (species and individual pending).

[Platymus Pus]

I don't understand what you're saying here.

You'd have to understand why you think this is more evil than doing other things yourself.
This is just abortion. It's evil because it's forced, he could easily do it physically and it'd be just as evil.
As opposed to sacrificing woman and child to your evil god of eternal damnation which is more traditional and much more evil.
Basically on the evil scale most any devil or demon would laugh at the antipaladin. If he wasn't eating souls already (yeah, that baby thing doesn't compare) that is.

[Frosty]

You'd have to understand why you think this is more evil than doing other things yourself.
This is just abortion. It's evil because it's forced, he could easily do it physically and it'd be just as evil.
As opposed to sacrificing woman and child to your evil god of eternal damnation which is more traditional and much more evil.
Basically on the evil scale most any devil or demon would laugh at the antipaladin. If he wasn't eating souls already (yeah, that baby thing doesn't compare) that is.
But more than half the posters here pretty much are screaming that this Antipaladin is like The Devourer reincarnated or something, and that hordes of Inevitables, Psychopomps, Angels etc should be coming to end him.

[Xuldarinar]

But more than half the posters here pretty much are screaming that this Antipaladin is like The Devourer reincarnated or something, and that hordes of Inevitables, Psychopomps, Angels etc should be coming to end him.

It is a touchy subject. I don't see why this in particular would invoke their (those outsider races) wrath. Do these denizens suddenly care if an antipaladin is being a little more proactive with their soul stealing? This is relatively common place. And it is not like the antipaladin is raiding the soul orchards, or even harvesting/corrupting raw potentiality.


Im getting ideas....

[Azoth]

I don't think I could take this anti paladin seriously. Eating souls not really that impressive on the scale of evil. For Baator's sake I have had neutral character harvesting soul stones from enemies with bound outsiders because "Waste not, want not".

Wasting a trap the soul on a random unborn NPC that isn't important or relevant to the plot? Not even from his resources but from a party member's? Pffft!

Someone needs to sit this guy down with Red Fel. He is less Evil than an 80's Saturday cartoon villain. Let him do it. It doesn't change much. Maybe have a NPC show him up and show him true Evil.

[ThisIsZen]

My issue with it and the thrust of my reaction wasn't so much that it was, in and of itself, a particularly evil thing. I mean, sure, it's kind of a squicky concept and it involves causing an innocent, expecting mother no uncertain amount of emotional trauma, but there are vastly worse things that can be done on far grander scales.

My issue with it is that it feels like a person trying to come up with the edgiest, most real-world-contentious action possible to be evil, and for very little reason overall. Others within the thread have already pointed out ways to be a better servant to the abyssal powers, as well as more dramatic acts of evil that can be performed. To me, this honestly just feels kind of... juvenile and gross-for-the-sake-of-gross? It's not evil, it's just in bad taste.

Which is why I support throwing the kitchen sink at his character for it. It might be a disproportionate response for the degree of actual evil being perpetrated, but still.

[Bakeru]

Which group of outsiders would be the first in line? Forget about mortal authorities for the time being.About... Two thirds of everyone?

From "Who hates him most" to "who likes him most"...

Psychopomps are straight at the front of the "murder him dead"-line, because he's interfering with the proper passage of souls to the afterlife, and Phasmara doesn't like abortions.
Every good-aligned outsider hates him because he's a bundle of evil.
Every lawful-aligned outsider hates him because he's a bundle of chaos. This includes devils - good outsiders might put their lawful/chaotic differences aside, evil outsiders are far less likely to do so.
The rest of true neutral Outsiders probably doesn't care much and wouldn't go after him, since he's not *their* problem, but they'd probably still rather kill him then make friends with him.

So, from here on start those that might actually like him (as far as "liking someone" goes for these kind of beings), or at least just don't care:
Proteans probably don't care about him either way, but at least he makes the workd a more chaotic place, so that's a plus.
Daemons might compliment him on his taste in cuisine - they're the ones who "invented" eating souls, after all.
Demons don't *usually* do that (they spawn from sinful souls instead), but I doubt they'd see an issue with it, and there's one Demon Lord who also eats souls (and is called out as an exception that frustrates scholars).
Quippoth would give him an high five - every soul he eats is one less soul that could become a demon, and they hate these uppity new neighbours in "their" Abbys. They'd probably still kill him, but that's nothing personal.


But yeah - except for Psychopomps (who hate soul-stealing and such, and serve Phasmara who, as mentioned, is against abortions), everyone who'd fight him would do so mostly because he's, well, an chaotic evil soul-eating monster. The Baby thing just seems kinda petty, unless he's doing it in a way that makes sure the mother's life afterwards will be a living hell.

[Apricot]

My issue with it and the thrust of my reaction wasn't so much that it was, in and of itself, a particularly evil thing. I mean, sure, it's kind of a squicky concept and it involves causing an innocent, expecting mother no uncertain amount of emotional trauma, but there are vastly worse things that can be done on far grander scales.

My issue with it is that it feels like a person trying to come up with the edgiest, most real-world-contentious action possible to be evil, and for very little reason overall. Others within the thread have already pointed out ways to be a better servant to the abyssal powers, as well as more dramatic acts of evil that can be performed. To me, this honestly just feels kind of... juvenile and gross-for-the-sake-of-gross? It's not evil, it's just in bad taste.

Which is why I support throwing the kitchen sink at his character for it. It might be a disproportionate response for the degree of actual evil being perpetrated, but still.

And all that would be needed for that to happen would be the Lawful Good divines to go after him and for everyone else to just not care about him, right? Only the Chaotic Evil folks would possibly have his back, as laughable as the idea of Chaotic Evil having anyone's back is, and they'd probably look at the act as juvenile and tryhard. It's not so much that he's making a ton of enemies by doing this as that he's making absolutely no friends.

[Frosty]

But yeah - except for Psychopomps (who hate soul-stealing and such, and serve Phasmara who, as mentioned, is against abortions), everyone who'd fight him would do so mostly because he's, well, an chaotic evil soul-eating monster. The Baby thing just seems kinda petty, unless he's doing it in a way that makes sure the mother's life afterwards will be a living hell.Wait, isn't a forced removal of the baby going to cause extreme emotional trauma to the mother anyways?

[Spore]

Wait, isn't a forced removal of the baby going to cause extreme emotional trauma to the mother anyways?

Yes, both physically and mentally.

[icefractal]

You know, it's squicky, but is it really any worse than eating the souls of children in general? Which, don't get me wrong, is pretty damn evil. But not the kind of thing that generally gets huge forces from several planes involved, as some people are suggesting.

And then for that matter, is eating childrens' souls really worse than eating souls, period? It hits an instinctive response, but since soul eating is in no way necessary for any kind of self/other defense, and remaining lifespan especially isn't a factor with soul eating, I think it's about the same badness.

So in conclusion:
1) Eating anyone's soul is pretty damn evil. In a setting where there's an afterlife (and said afterlife is not torment), then it's a massively more evil act than just murder.
2) Anti-Paladins shouldn't try to show off and 'up the evil' of things that are already ultra-sins. It just makes them look silly.

[Xuldarinar]

Question; Why not just consume the soul of the mother and kill the unborn? If he does more things like that, the qlippoth may respect his efforts. Theres something to gain potentially from association. If he is trapping and consuming the souls of the unborn.. thats wasted effort to do potential trauma to someone. A certain amount of trauma (potentially fatal) already being caused by trying to get line of sight.

[ATHATH]

Let's get an expert: Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.

[endur]

The Question is MOOT! As the anti-paladin shall be smited by a hero carrying a Holy Avenger.

[Bakeru]

Wait, isn't a forced removal of the baby going to cause extreme emotional trauma to the mother anyways?Yeah, but:
1) If he kills the mother afterwards (and eat her soul, too), then, well, he managed to destroy two souls (probably rather weak souls at that - the baby is pre-class levels, so only the mother could have any levels worth mentioning, which is a problem because IIRC, most of the time when the evil books (Books of the Dammed, Faiths/Champions of Corruption...) mentioning getting benefits from sacrificing souls, the benefits are based on the HD of the soul sacrificed), and any suffering is ended with that. Demons aren't going to be impressed (and even Quippoth would just write it of as "Well, two souls less, who cares, do you know how many more there are?").
2) If he leaves the mother alone... well, sure, a traumatic experience. Maybe she won't get over it, leading to the same result as above. Or she recovers, or at least learns to live with it, and... well, then he just destroyed one soul (of negligible HD), and that's even less impressive.


But if, instead, he managed to drive her completely insane so she starts inflicting the same fate on others, like a huge pyramid scheme of evil? Now we're talking, that might be of interest to the lower planes, but even then only once it really gets rolling. But otherwise? Two low-HD humans. Who cares? The good guys care about stuff like that, not the bad guys. Stealing candy from a baby is easy. Killing it is only marginally harder, and while it's more evil, it's not really any more impressive.

Especially since demons are very, very selfish and self-centered, so if it neither affects them personally nor is an extraordinary display of power... "meh". He can (get someone to) cast "Trap the soul", that's all.

[Xar Zarath]

...4) will Psychopomps be sent after the antipaladin?

Okay first off who is the woman (and baby) to the antipaladin? Is she the leader or vital part of some goodly church and he plans to hurt her so as to improve his standing with some vile power? Or is he doing it for the lulz?

And as for the party wizard, is said wizard ok with it? or is the wizard sort of the neutral don't care anyhow type?

The first three questions can be answered by others or at your own discretion depending on how you want it to happen. Or the Trap the Soul could just net both mom and baby together.

Now as for the question I emphasised above, here's something to chew on. Pharasma is the goddess of birth, death and judgment but most of all she also oversees fate. Therefore all things are fated and she knows exactly what is going to happen to all living and maybe even undead things. Some posters here might say that her fate vision isn't working as well but that's her power over prophecy which has been steadily going wonky since Aroden's death. Therefore the death of one baby measured against a near endless sea of souls isn't going to matter. She's big picture type and her psychopomps oversee the souls that come to the Boneyard are also part of that big picture type.

They make sure all go to their respective domains and prevent anyone from stealing or jeapordizing the River of Souls when they get to the Boneyard. So as far as the psychopomps making life difficult for the antipaladin? No, not really. He would have to contend with maybe angels and archons and other goodly celestials but as the DM you can decide how much are they willing to go for this one antipaladin.

You have to consider the machinations of Hell, the destruction of the proteans, fury of the Abyss and nihilistic vision of Abaddon because Heaven, Elysium and Nirvana tend to send out parties to fight some or all of the inhabitants. Not in the total war sense but in the making a point that we're here and not going away kind of point. Maybe a priest summons a celestial who can then be offered to hunt down the evil guy but the fact remains that there are a lot of bad things happening in the multiverse. As a DM you could have the character facing off against some dangerous celestials but the fact remains that he's just one small fry in a very big multiverse.

The fact that evils like Tar-Baphon, Erum-Hel, Geb, the Worldwound, and House of Thrune do much worse and still getting away (some quite literally) and not being hunted (some are still slumming it) thinking that one antipaladin eating a soul or trapping it is going to evoke some crusade is quite laughable. Its too big of a multiverse.

Consider this as well. Norgorber was once a man who took up the Test of the Starstone and among those who touched the space rock, is the only evil god. Would the antipaladin like to take a chance? If he does become a god, then nobody can go after him.

[Red Fel]

Someone needs to sit this guy down with Red Fel. He is less Evil than an 80's Saturday cartoon villain. Let him do it. It doesn't change much. Maybe have a NPC show him up and show him true Evil.

Hm?


Let's get an expert: Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.

http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/images/c_fill,h_240,w_360/t_mp_quality_gif/tlxw5depwseopuh7q7kt/it-s-showtime-here-is-everything-we-know-so-far-about-the-upcoming-beetlejuice-seque-670784.gif

Alright, let me see what the problem is.


Okay, a few quick questions here to help the antipaladin be possibly more evil (he regularly eats souls already).

... Antipaladins. Ugh. These guys. No class, no style, and certainly no pizzazz. Y'know I hate 'em.


He wants the party wizard to cast Trap the Soul on a fetus. This raises a whole bunch of questions...

Boy, does it ever.


1) Does anyone have line of effect to the fetus, or does the mother provide total cover?

I'd say she provides total cover. Unless he has some kind of feat that lets him bypass concealment, anything inside the mother's body has total concealment, and therefore blocks line of effect. Also, ew.


2) how much would the gem required to be worth to trap a fetus? Aka how much HD does a fetus have? What Will Save does it get?

Less than a fraction of an HD. I'd go so far as to say 0 HD. While I'd rather not get into metaphysical arguments, MoI went into some detail about "potential" and "unborn souls," and I'd argue that the fetus isn't really its own independent being yet. Even if you argue that it has a soul - and again, let's not touch that issue - it's still entirely biologically dependent; in D&D terms I wouldn't even call it a parasite (which, it's worth noting, is a template (Symbiotic), and not an independent creature, once attached). It's simply not a creature on its own, such that it could be a valid target. Also, ew.


3) when trap the soul is successful,

Which it won't be, no line of effect and no valid target.


the material body disappears. I guess that means the women isn't pregnant anymore? If the gem is later broken, does the fetus magically reappear in the woman's womb, no matter where she is, alove or dead? Assuming the woman is alive, would the pregnancy just continue as if nothing had happened, and without health complications?

The woman just theoretically had her insides carved out. I'd say less "She's no longer pregnant," and more "She's bleeding internally." If the gem is later broken, chances are that Mumsy Dearest is quite dead unless she got immediate medical attention for internal hemorrhage, so that's a non-issue; in any event, the fetus would emerge where the gem was broken. Also, ew.


4) will Psychopomps be sent after the antipaladin?

Again, all this assumes it could actually happen. Believe it or not, I'd say no. Why? Because necrocarnum and vivicarnum are things, and they're explicitly soul-stuff. That said, other devotees of cosmic Good would most certainly go after the guy, because seriously, ew.


So, is this why evil campaigns don't work?

No. First, Evil campaigns don't always not work. Sometimes they work great, when there is an understanding among the players. For example, when the players understand the need to design their characters to get along, despite being Evil, the campaign can work. When the players understand that there are different tastes in Evil, and agree not to cross certain lines (e.g. eating baby souls), the campaign can work.

This character? He doesn't strike me as the sort designed with the other players in mind. Or taste, for that matter. Also, ew.


I don't understand what you're saying here.

Frosty, meet me over by camera 2.

Heya, buddy. Here's what's going on. See, people talk about Evil having style and appeal. This guy? Not so much. Evil that eats baby souls is cheap, it's there for shock value. What's he actually doing, am I right? Sure, the mother is suffering, and the censors are up in arms, but let's be honest, how is he making the world a worse place?

That's what real, delicious, melts-in-your-mouth Evil is all about. It's not about the horrified gasps from the audience, or people protesting outside the theater, it's about ruining that which is most precious, on a grand scale. Spreading fear and terror. Toppling a kingdom that stands as a beacon of nobility and justice. Reminding people that their heroes are only mortals, mere men with exploitable vices. That is what Evil is about. It's about destroying hopes and dreams across the continent, not about making one mother sob with grief.

Your Antipaladin? He's an amateur. Meet me back on camera 1.

So, in summary, YOU DARE SUMMON ME FOR THIS? Also, seriously, ew.

[ManicOppressive]

Rehashing what a lot of people have said, this guy sounds like he's just going for shock value. Stupid Evil people should be treated like the first part of that alignment. "Evil = eats babby sowls" is along the same lines as "Chaotic = "LOL I JUMP OFF THE BRIDGE SINGING THE BARNEY SONG ARNT I SO RANDUM." It's stupid, it should be treated as stupid, and he needs to learn to roleplay before touching an evil character again.

Now simultaneously binding the souls of every newborn child in the kingdom in order to possess their bodies with loyal negative energy beings in a convoluted long-term plan to take over the lands, that would be an evil plan. Binding the soul of a fetus is a plan by a 14 year old who listens to too much Cure and talks about how dark and brooding his soul is.

[Telok]

What's the point of this?

Eating souls? Celestial cows. Sapient, more HD, less danger, and farmable.
Killing babies? Burn down an orphanage. No orphanage? Build one. No orphans? Make them.
Lols? Turn the babies into vampires. Before or after birth, preferably without anyone knowing. Difficult but rewarding.
Squick factor? Atropal. This antipaladin will never be that cool.

You want evil? Get an entire order of paladins to go all LN Judge Dredd and like it. Bonus points for getting them to all fall at the same time. Corrupt a bunch of nobility all over the world, use lots of opposite alignment helms if you need to. Then murder every single royal family on the same day. World wide civil war. Start a 'Pelor of the Burning Hate' cult and corrupt a god.

Eating baby souls? I've seen more evil things on Saturday morning cartoons.

[Frosty]

Thanks, Red Fel. I'll go let him know how bad he is at being evil, and try to convince him to do better.

For some reason, the fact that you repeated the phrase "seriously, ew" so often amused me :smallbiggrin:

[Spore]

For some reason, the fact that you repeated the phrase "seriously, ew" so often amused me :smallbiggrin:

http://i.imgur.com/U7Ghu2s.gif