Six seconds for one shot? What are we using, muskets? [houserule, d20 Modern]

[Dhavaer]

Normally you can fire a semi-automatic pistol once per round without feats, class abilities or attacks from high BAB. This seems a little slow; I don't know much about guns but I'm pretty sure they fire faster than that. However, I don't want to make guns really powerful.

Proposed houserule:

A character can take a -6 penalty to attack and fire 3 bullets instead of one to add an extra damage die when using a semi-automatic firearm. A character with the Double Tap feat takes only a -2 penalty and expends only 2 bullets per attack.

A character can take a -8 penalty to attack and fire 10 bullets instead of one to add two extra damage dice when using an automatic firearm. A character with the Burst Fire feat takes only a -4 penalty, uses only 5 bullets and can make use of a limiter to further reduce ammunition expenditure. If a character without the Burst Fire feat uses a limiter, treat the attack as a Double Tap without the feat.

A character taking the full attack action with a firearm of at least semi-automatic firing rate may take a -4 penalty on all attacks in order to make an additional attack with a -5 penalty at his lowest BAB. A character using this option may not use the Double Tap or Burst Fire options unless all attacks are made against a single target.

[Koji]

Technically, it's ~1.5 seconds (a turn is 3 seconds, and a standard action takes half of that), which is perfectly logical considering you're actually trying to shoot something and hit it. Shooting faster is already covered with rapid shot and BAB. I don't get why you would want to do this.

[Dhavaer]

Technically, it's ~1.5 seconds (a turn is 3 seconds, and a standard action takes half of that), which is perfectly logical considering you're actually trying to shoot something and hit it. Shooting faster is already covered with rapid shot and BAB. I don't get why you would want to do this.

A round is 6 seconds. Top of page 130.

[Matthew]

Yup, it's six seconds alright. Fire rates in D20 Modern are just silly. The only problem with increasing the number is that it tends to stack with BAB and other methods, so at high levels you get too many Attacks and at low levels too few. These seem like okay House Rules to me, it just seems a bit off that you can only shoot repeatedly at one target using it (unless I'm reading it wrong).

[brian c]

Yup, it's six seconds alright. Fire rates in D20 Modern are just silly. The only problem with increasing the number is that it tends to stack with BAB and other methods, so at high levels you get too many Attacks and at low levels too few. These seem like okay House Rules to me, it just seems a bit off that you can only shoot repeatedly at one target using it (unless I'm reading it wrong).

What if you added some sort of spray shot ability, you fire a whole bunch of bullets across the room (or wherever you are) but with almost no chance of hitting anyone?

You could add that, but I was only half-serious. My point is that if you try to fire a gun really fast at one target, you still can aim it decently but if you're firing quickly and changing targets, you'd be lucky to hit.

[Hurlbut]

What if you added some sort of spray shot ability, you fire a whole bunch of bullets across the room (or wherever you are) but with almost no chance of hitting anyone?

You could add that, but I was only half-serious. My point is that if you try to fire a gun really fast at one target, you still can aim it decently but if you're firing quickly and changing targets, you'd be lucky to hit.
Isn't that what Strafe almost do?

[Matthew]

What if you added some sort of spray shot ability, you fire a whole bunch of bullets across the room (or wherever you are) but with almost no chance of hitting anyone?

You could add that, but I was only half-serious. My point is that if you try to fire a gun really fast at one target, you still can aim it decently but if you're firing quickly and changing targets, you'd be lucky to hit.
Sure, I agree, but over a six second round, it shoudn't be too difficult for a professional with a Semi Automatic Pistol to get off three rounds at three different targets or even six, if the targets are grouped closely together. Double Tap lets you shoot twice at one target. As the rules stand, you can actually shoot multiple times in a round, but it has no effect. I haven't seen any Rapid shot type Feats for D20 Modern, but they are the kind of thing that strikes me as reasonable (even as a House Rule).


Firearms
The most basic form of attack with a firearm is a single shot. One attack is one pull of the trigger and fires one bullet at one target.
The Personal Firearms Proficiency feat allows a character to make this sort of attack without penalty. If a character isn’t proficient in personal firearms, he or she takes a –4 penalty on attacks with that type of weapon.
A number of other feats allow a character to deal extra damage when he or she fires more than one bullet as part of a single attack at a single target. (If a character doesn’t have those feats, he or she can still fire more than one bullet—but the extra bullets don’t have any effect, and are just wasted ammunition.)
As with all forms of ranged weapons, attacking with a firearm while within a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity.
Because of the weapon’s unwieldy shape and size, an attacker using a longarm takes a –4 penalty on attacks against adjacent opponents.
Autofire
If a ranged weapon has an automatic rate of fire, a character may set it on autofire. Autofire affects an area and everyone in it, not a specific creature. The character targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area and makes an attack roll; the targeted area has an effective Defense of 10. (If the character does not have the Advanced Firearms Proficiency feat, he or she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.) If the attack succeeds, every creature within the affected area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or take the weapon’s damage. Autofire shoots 10 bullets, and can only be used if the weapon has 10 bullets in it.
Autofire is not the same thing as burst fire, which involves firing a short burst at a specific target. Firing a burst requires the Burst Fire feat. If a character fires a blast of automatic fire at a specific target without the Burst Fire feat, it’s treated as a standard attack. The attack, if successful, only deals normal damage—all the extra ammunition the character fired is wasted.
Some firearms—particularly machine guns—only have autofire settings and can’t normally fire single shots.

To be honest, I would like to see Rounds in D20 shortened to 3 Seconds, but once you start playing around with the mechanics, it's hard to stop.

[Darkkwalker]

do it like shadowrun. I think it's something like, 2 shots per round, no minuses.

[Dhavaer]

These seem like okay House Rules to me, it just seems a bit off that you can only shoot repeatedly at one target using it (unless I'm reading it wrong).

If you're using a full-round action, you can fire at multiple targets, although the penalties are pretty stiff.
The reason why I didn't allow extra attacks, as opposed to extra shots, as attack actions is that I'm fairly sure aiming the gun at a target takes at least enough time to make it unfeasable to jog 30ft., draw a gun, aim, fire, aim again, fire again all in 6 seconds, unless you have a great deal of training (something along the lines of the Guns Akimbo feat).

[Matthew]

Oh yeah, I see that at the bottom now. The penalties are pretty stiff, as you say, probably too stiff, in my opinion.

Six Seconds is a long time. Moving 30' is the equivalent of taking twelve steps (30") or six paces (5'), it doesn't really have to be a jog. Shooting a gun at the same time is admittedly trickier than while standing still.

You could certainly squeeze off six shots over the course of six seconds, if you were otherwise not moving or what have you.

On the other hand, I'm no expert as to how much time you really need to aim and such, so I have no idea how that should impact your modifiers to hit.

Of course, all that is real world supposition anyway and doesn't really matter over the mechanics of the game. All the same, I would really like to see some sort of Rapid Shot Feat for Semi Automatic Fire. I would have thought a -4 Penalty for taking two shots without the Feat would be more than sufficient without falling back on Iterations, but you probably know best what is suited to your game.

[Dhavaer]

Slightly altered the full round option.

[Assasinater]

Normally, it's taking aim that takes all that time. To bring that to the game, you may increase the number of attacks possible in one round, but make "locking on" to new targets a standard action. I believe Jagged Alliance 2 had a similar combat system.

Also, you can make burst fires that are similar to cone-shaped spells. For example, every bullet you would additionally fire during that burst widens the cone, but lowers it's DC (or something similar).

[Ceres]

I've found the six-second rounds of d20 to be silly not only for guns, but for most actions in general. That's why I've created a custom "shots" system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2689885#post2689885) inspired by Feng Shui to make things a tad more realistic. In this system, firing a crossbow takes two seconds, and I imagine that firing a handgun would take about to same amount of time.

Maybe not exactly what you were looking for, but if this thread is any sign of people being annoyed on the six-second rounds in general I thought It'd be best if I posted it :smallsmile:

[Matthew]

Interesting. When using Action Points, I usually let Bows and Cross Bows Shoot as a 1 Second Action, reloading is another issue.

[TheOOB]

do it like shadowrun. I think it's something like, 2 shots per round, no minuses.

Heck, a heavily augmented person can make 8 shots in a 3 second period in shadowrun, im not sure if the mechanics on some semi-auto guns can acually handle that.

[Matthew]

Hmmn, looks like 4.5 Rounds per 6 Seconds for an M16A2 in Semi Automatic Mode: Military Analysis network M16A2 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m16.htm). Sounds like too many shots in Shadow Run...

[Darkkwalker]

Heck, a heavily augmented person can make 8 shots in a 3 second period in shadowrun, im not sure if the mechanics on some semi-auto guns can acually handle that.

Sure the mechanics of semi-autos can handle it. it's just whether or not you can pull the trigger fast enough. There is in fact one particular rifle (semi-auto) that if you place your fingers on the trigger a certain way will fire auto. (not meant to. but will). the mechanics of the gun can handle it.
also, they are augmented. with cybernetics/magic. of course they can do it.

[RyanM]

Six seconds for one shot makes about as much sense as six seconds to swing a baseball bat once. Not too familiar with D20 modern. Do you get bonus attacks at high levels?

Anyway, 6 seconds for a complete novice doesn't sound too far off. Despite what Hollywood portrays, guns are pretty darn hard to use. If you don't take the time to carefully line up the sights and sloowwwwly squeeze the trigger, you're not going to be able to hit crap past about 10 yards. Breathing control is also important past about 50 yards.

Main problems are recoil and noise, both of which contribute to flinching, which will be the main detractor to accuracy. Pretty much anything more powerful than 9mm in a handgun, or .223 in a rifle, will have an unpleasant amount of recoil (unless the gun is really heavy). The more powerful calibers can be downright painful. My hand was red and sore for an entire week the last time I put a box of full power .357 magnums through my soon-to-be-sold SP-101 (snubnose .357). And my shoulder was solid verdigris the first time I tried out my Swiss K-31 (being Asian, my skin pigmentation makes bruises green rather than blue, which is useful for convincing small children that I'm an alien from outer space). Something like a lightweight 12 gauge shotgun, firing slugs or buckshot, could easily break your collarbone if you don't know what you're doing.

So really, the only way to hit anything at range is to slow down, concentrate, and squeeeeeze the trigger, real slow. That way you don't know precisely when the gun will fire, so if you flinch, it will be after the bullet is well on its way. If you just yank the trigger, not only will that upset your aim to begin with, you're also nearly guaranteed to flinch before the gun actually fires, which will mess you up even more. And the typical oh-crap-this-is-gonna-hurt flinch generally means shooting the dirt halfway between you and the target.

On firing rapidly or full automatic, at ranges greater than about 5 feet, without extensive practice (months, if not years, of practice), don't bother. General rule, according to some Vietnam vets I know, is that if the first shot doesn't hit, neither will any of the others. If the first shot does hit, the rest will miss high and to the right. Actually, it was bad enough that several officers in Vietnam were in the habit of fining soldiers about $20 if they broke firing discipline (by firing full-auto).

[Matthew]

Interesting points. Unfortunately, even a Level 1 Character is not a complete novice, he may even have advanced Fire Arms Training.

Yeah, in Modern you benefit from BAB the same way as in D&D.

[Demented]

Interesting points. Unfortunately, even a Level 1 Character is not a complete novice, he may even have advanced Fire Arms Training.

If the level 1 character with advanced firearms training can't shoot any better than the level 1 character that has never seen a gun before, then he hasn't had any advanced firearms training.

[Matthew]

Heh, what's in a name?


Advanced Firearms Proficiency
Prerequisite: Personal Firearms Proficiency.
Benefit: The character can fire any personal firearm on autofire without penalty (provided, of course, that it has an auto¬fire setting).
Normal: Characters without this feat take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with personal firearms set on auto¬fire.

Yeah, I dunno. Just strikes me that levels are an annoying reason to get extra attacks (especially at -5 AB). It's probably just my personal hatred for Iterative Attacks showing through and confusion over the lack of a Rapid Shooting Feat in the MSRD Feat List.

[Mr. Moogle]

I had a thread a couple days ago in the d20 discussion fourm ill link it. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2780003. If you read this you might see some key simalaritys between my work and Dhavers. i think you might want to see it

[RyanM]

Lack of a rapid shooting feat is quite an oversight in the D20 modern system, looks like. Although it couldn't be handled like archery, since obviously firearms and bows are quite different. If I had it my way, I'd have two feats, something like:

Hammer: If using a functionally semi-automatic firearm (to include double action revolvers, and single-trigger double-barreled firerams), you may fire up to 6 shots (or the weapon's capacity, whichever is lower) per round at a single target. The first shot is made at your normal chance to hit, but consecutive shots have a cumulative -4 penalty to hit. The second shot is -4, the third is -8, the fourth is -12, etc.

Spray and Pray: If using a functionally semi-automatic firearm, you may fire up to 6 shots (or the weapon's capacity) per round at any number of targets you want (not to exceed the number of shots fired). Every shot is made with a -3 penalty for each shot fired in addition to the first one. Two shots are made with a -3 penalty each, 3 shots with a -6 penalty each, etc.

So basically, in the first feat you aim once and shoot lots. In the second, each shot is aimed individually, but hurriedly (and horridly). The penalties probably need tweaking, but I think those two feats would cover it.

And I guess they could both be used together, Halfing Rock-Skipping Chamipon-style, as long as the total number of shots per round doesn't exceed 6. So if you want to shoot 2 people 3 times each, you could either make 6 seperate attacks at -18 each, or fire two "Hammers" of 3 shots each, at -3, -7, and -11 to hit.