New Cantrip: Dawnstrike Blade

[DracoKnight]

This cantrip is to the cleric what booming blade and green-flame blade are to the Arcane casters. I have also placed it on the Sorcerer spell list for a couple of reasons:

1) I don't want to exclude it from the Favored Soul Sorcerous Origin
2) Placing it on the Sorcerer spell list, allow those Charisma casters who wish to grab it through Magic Initiate (good for Undying Light Warlocks and pretty much any Paladin).

Without further ado, here is Dawnstrike Blade (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JEs4v_BZz-y4wXLTJ6EF2wna8rcCUScmd_zyxaYYgXE/edit?usp=sharing)! :smallbiggrin:

[GandalfTheWhite]

This cantrip is to the cleric what booming blade and green-flame blade are to the Arcane casters. I have also placed it on the Sorcerer spell list for a couple of reasons:

1) I don't want to exclude it from the Favored Soul Sorcerous Origin
2) Placing it on the Sorcerer spell list, allow those Charisma casters who wish to grab it through Magic Initiate (good for Undying Light Warlocks and pretty much any Paladin).

Without further ado, here is Dawnstrike Blade (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JEs4v_BZz-y4wXLTJ6EF2wna8rcCUScmd_zyxaYYgXE/edit?usp=sharing)! :smallbiggrin:

Not sure how good blinding your enemy is, but I think it looks decent.

Also, that's great that you included it on sorcerer. While I don't feel that the UA Favored Soul is the best representation of the FS, this spell being on the sorcerer spell list does allow for a paladin who wants to play high risk/high reward only getting a single attack per round, admittedly have advantage on the next attack after this one.

[Inevitability]

Seems pretty strong. Frostbite deals less damage, has a less desirable damage type, and has a weaker rider, and it's a pretty balanced cantrip. Definitely weaken this a bit.

[Submortimer]

Seems pretty strong. Frostbite deals less damage, has a less desirable damage type, and has a weaker rider, and it's a pretty balanced cantrip. Definitely weaken this a bit.

Certainly disagree. This is less powerful than booming blade, and thunder is a rarely resisted damage type. I think it looks fine.

[Flashy]

Certainly disagree. This is less powerful than booming blade, and thunder is a rarely resisted damage type. I think it looks fine.

This is definitely not less powerful than booming blade. Booming blade gives the target an incentive not to use movement on their turn, a thing they already probably weren't going to do for fear of eating an attack of opportunity. Dawnstrike Blade has a reasonable chance to give the target disadvantage on all their attack rolls, and everyone else advantage on attack rolls against the target until the end of whoever cast Dawnstrike Blade's next turn. The status effect on the cantrip is much too strong. You'll get situations where Eldritch Knights are taking Magic Initiate: Cleric in order to make 3-6 attack rolls at advantage against a target just by themselves.

The target needs a tradeoff option like Booming Blade. If it also ended when the target makes an attack (so it grants the same amount of disadvantage as Viscous Mockery) I'd be more okay with it, though that still means everyone in the attacker's party is at advantage until the target gets their turn.

[DracoKnight]

Okay, I changed it from the blinded condition; instead the cantrip now grants only the caster advantage against the target.

[Requiemforlust]

Okay, see, I like this. I actually like all of the Blade can't rips you've made thus far.

But I actually think Advantage for you on your target's failed CON save is too strong. Instead, maybe something like Melf's Acid Arrow? The creature makes a CON save, and on a failure they take a d4 (scaling) damage at the end of their next turn?

[DracoKnight]

Okay, see, I like this. I actually like all of the Blade can't rips you've made thus far.

But I actually think Advantage for you on your target's failed CON save is too strong. Instead, maybe something like Melf's Acid Arrow? The creature makes a CON save, and on a failure they take a d4 (scaling) damage at the end of their next turn?

I think that would make it too strong. I have edited the link, changing it from the blinded condition.

[PoeticDwarf]

This is pretty cool (I'm not a fan of these cantrips but talked about that).

The whole dmg to radiant dmg is too much, it is still a normal weapon (or did I read it wrong, don't see it perfect on my mobile phone).

Overall balanced with the other option and cool cleric fluff.

[Alerad]

I have to agree that advantage on your next attack seems kind of strong. Possible suggestions:

- Drop the damage die to 1d6. It's still radiant which is better than cold (Frostbite).

- Make it require concentration and lose the Con save. It then becomes a True strike which also deals damage.

- Keep the damage die and the radiant damage and drop the advantage.

Question. Does the weapon attack stack with your cleric bonus damage from levels 8 and 14?

Generally for a cantrip I think it's better to avoid rolling too many times. Either attack roll -or- save should be enough, but better not both.

[DracoKnight]

- Make it require concentration and lose the Con save. It then becomes a True strike which also deals damage.

I implemented this.

[DracoKnight]

I altered the secondary effect of this cantrip.

[RakiReborn]

I like the secondary effect, but as it is now it seems a little underpowered to me. Concentration is really frequently used, certainly as a Cleric. This limits a lot of bonus action uses that also require concentration with spells, like spiritual weapon, and most if not all buff/debuf spells, which is kind of a cleric's thing. Also, the secondary effect is damage that comes later, which can mean that the creature can get in another hit. I think the damage die could be improved, or let the concentration go and let it be until the end of your next turn or when the creature is hit. Just my two cents ;)

[DracoKnight]

I like the secondary effect, but as it is now it seems a little underpowered to me. Concentration is really frequently used, certainly as a Cleric. This limits a lot of bonus action uses that also require concentration with spells, like spiritual weapon, and most if not all buff/debuf spells, which is kind of a cleric's thing. Also, the secondary effect is damage that comes later, which can mean that the creature can get in another hit. I think the damage die could be improved, or let the concentration go and let it be until the end of your next turn or when the creature is hit. Just my two cents ;)

I have removed the concentration requirement, and cleaned up the wording. :smallsmile:

[RakiReborn]

One more thing - is it for a reason that the secondary effect can only be triggered by allies? I can see this being used by an eldritch knight trough Magic Initiate, which can do an attack in the same turn. Apart from that, there are sometimes solo quests or campains, in which it is weak if it is only triggered by an ally.
Oh, also a second thing - as stated, the secondary effect only ends when the target is hit. You might want to add the restriction that it ends at for instance the end of your next turn (so you might trigger it yourself in solo quest/campains if you can trigger it yourself).

[DracoKnight]

One more thing - is it for a reason that the secondary effect can only be triggered by allies? I can see this being used by an eldritch knight trough Magic Initiate, which can do an attack in the same turn. Apart from that, there are sometimes solo quests or campains, in which it is weak if it is only triggered by an ally.
Oh, also a second thing - as stated, the secondary effect only ends when the target is hit. You might want to add the restriction that it ends at for instance the end of your next turn (so you might trigger it yourself in solo quest/campains if you can trigger it yourself).

So...have the wording say something like "on the next hit"?

[RakiReborn]

I would make it '...and the next succesful hit on the target before the end of your next turn deals an extra 1d4 radiant damage'.

[DracoKnight]

I would make it '...and the next succesful hit on the target before the end of your next turn deals an extra 1d4 radiant damage'.

Fixed it :smallbiggrin:

[RakiReborn]

now it looks perfect to me. I might even use it in a future campain ;) (in a long while, so you have the time to make more goldies ;p)

[DracoKnight]

now it looks perfect to me. I might even use it in a future campain ;) (in a long while, so you have the time to make more goldies ;p)

I have some other melee cantrips that I've posted here :smallbiggrin: I can link to them, if you want. I also have Sunspear, Chaos Bolt, and a few others for ranged options :smallsmile:

[RakiReborn]

i have seen the others i think (reaper's blade and a cold-slowing one), and made a note somewhere, so i'm good. Been following your posts for a while now ;) great job on the balance, noticed while homebrewing myself that it sometimes is quite difficult to make it right where it needs to be :P

[AmbientRaven]

I Like the idea, but honestly, is it needed?

Every cleric domain gains "at X level deal XD8 additional damage on melee attacks". The cantrip is there to help catch melee wizards up on clerics "auto attack' damage.

So a 17th level cleric, with this cantrip deals Weapon+Str/Dex+3D8(Domain)+3D8+4d4.

Let us presume a Great-Weapon, and 20 str.
A cleric deals 1D12+5+6D8 (12-65+4-16) with the attack. Add in a Spirit Weapon cast at 4th level, and you deal 2D8+Wis (let's say 3). For a total turn of damage dealing 21-90 (includes the 4d4 from an ally triggering the cantrip as well).
A fighter with the same weapon/str deals 24-68. the fighter MUST take great-weapon fighter to pull ahead AND hit with all 4 attacks. They also can't take war caster and AoO with the same damage. they can't BA attack. so 24-68 or 64-108 including a feat. needing to hit 4 times at -5.
A Rogue deals 1D8+6D10+1D6 at 10th level. So they deal 8-74. Using action and bonus action they get.

So by adding this simple cantrip, A Full caster you can out damage rogues when they land sneak, and almost do the same as a fighter hitting all 4 attacks AND whom took a feat to stay up to par, out classing them when they don't take the feat. Also your Round of damage, if you get an AoO and have warcaster far exceeds anyones.

Cleric = 21-90*2 = 42-180
Fighter = 64-108+1D12+5+10 = 80-145
Rogue = 15-142

The maths is a bit simple, but, am sure you understand the balance issue I am trying to address.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I Like the idea, but honestly, is it needed?

Honestly, I think it's fine. Clerics don't deal huge amounts of damage. And they only have a SINGLE attack. So this allows them to boost the damage of that attack, and allows, say the party Rogue to deal an extra d4 (scaling) damage on their sneak. Honestly it fits the cleric fairly well, supporting their allies without sacrificing their turn.

[AmbientRaven]

Honestly, I think it's fine. Clerics don't deal huge amounts of damage. And they only have a SINGLE attack. So this allows them to boost the damage of that attack, and allows, say the party Rogue to deal an extra d4 (scaling) damage on their sneak. Honestly it fits the cleric fairly well, supporting their allies without sacrificing their turn.

Every cleric has a feature that adds scaling D8 to their attacks to make up for only one attack. The wizard and sorcerer had nothing like this, hence the cantrip. Clerics also can access medium or heavy armour, shields and are full casters. All additional reasons wizards have a scaling cantrip that outperforms the druids class ability. If they want shields/Armour they have to dip or expand feats to do so. Likewise if a cleric wants the more damage focused abilities, they have to dip or spend feats. it's overall game balance. Not one class can have it all, which is what this cantrip is trying to do.

If you want something in line with the Cleric, have a cantrip that does not deal additional damage, but gives allies a scaling damage increase on attacks. Like guiding bolt, but as a melee based cantrip.

[Teleros]

Just wanted to add, theme wise in terms of enchanting weaponry this seems like it could be a good fit to eldritch knight as well, and could work nicely when used as the bonus cantrip, since while it would do less damage then another cantrip, it will be slightly more reliable.

[Submortimer]

I Like the idea, but honestly, is it needed?

Every cleric domain gains "at X level deal XD8 additional damage on melee attacks". The cantrip is there to help catch melee wizards up on clerics "auto attack' damage.

So a 17th level cleric, with this cantrip deals Weapon+Str/Dex+3D8(Domain)+3D8+4d4.

Let us presume a Great-Weapon, and 20 str.
A cleric deals 1D12+5+6D8 (12-65+4-16) with the attack. Add in a Spirit Weapon cast at 4th level, and you deal 2D8+Wis (let's say 3). For a total turn of damage dealing 21-90 (includes the 4d4 from an ally triggering the cantrip as well).
A fighter with the same weapon/str deals 24-68. the fighter MUST take great-weapon fighter to pull ahead AND hit with all 4 attacks. They also can't take war caster and AoO with the same damage. they can't BA attack. so 24-68 or 64-108 including a feat. needing to hit 4 times at -5.
A Rogue deals 1D8+6D10+1D6 at 10th level. So they deal 8-74. Using action and bonus action they get.

So by adding this simple cantrip, A Full caster you can out damage rogues when they land sneak, and almost do the same as a fighter hitting all 4 attacks AND whom took a feat to stay up to par, out classing them when they don't take the feat. Also your Round of damage, if you get an AoO and have warcaster far exceeds anyones.

Cleric = 21-90*2 = 42-180
Fighter = 64-108+1D12+5+10 = 80-145
Rogue = 15-142

The maths is a bit simple, but, am sure you understand the balance issue I am trying to address.

Your math and numbers are all wrong.

Presuming 20 str for a cleric is a bit wonky, especially if you want to give them Warcaster as well, but i'll play along.


Lets look at level 10, level 15, and level 20. Assumptions: variant human all around, Champion Fighter with PAM and GWM using a polearm, War Cleric with Warcaster using a Greataxe, and Arcane Trickster Rogue with Dual wielder using a rapier and a short sword. Fighter and Cleric have 20 str, Rogue has 20 dex. Using standard scores, the cleric has a 15 wisdom at level 10, 17 at level 15, and 20 at level 20 (assuming he only spends his ASIs on Stat boosts).

Fighter will be using Attack Action
Cleric using Dawnstrike Blade
Rogue using Booming Blade


lvl 10
Fighter: 2d10+1d4+15 (avg 28.5) with +9 to hit, or 2d10+1d4+45 (Avg 58.5) with +4 to hit

Cleric: 1d12+1d8+1d8+5 (avg. 20.5) + potentially 2d4 bonus damage (total avg: 25.5), with +9 to hit.

Rogue: 1d8+1d8+5d6+5 (avg 31.5) + potentially 2d8 bonus damage (total avg. 40.5), +9 to hit.

Lvl 15
Fighter: 3d10+1d4+20 (avg 39) with +10 to hit, or 3d10+1d4+60 (Avg 79) with +5 to hit.

Cleric: 1d12+2d8+2d8+5 (avg. 29.5) + potentially 3d4 bonus damage (total avg: 37), with +10 to hit.

Rogue: 1d8+2d8+8d6+5 (avg 46.5) + potentially 3d8 bonus damage (total avg. 60), +10 to hit.

Lvl 20
Fighter: 4d10+1d4+25 (avg 49.5) with +11 to hit, or 4d10+1d4+75 (Avg 124.5) with +6 to hit.

Cleric: 1d12+2d8+3d8+5 (avg. 34) + potentially 4d4 bonus damage (total avg: 44), with +11 to hit.

Rogue: 1d8+3d8+10d6+5 (avg 58) + potentially 4d8 bonus damage (total avg. 76), +11 to hit.

Even if you add in Spiritual weapon, you'd have to cast it at the max level possible at your level to be comparative with fighter average (you'd be better served using your concentration on spiritual guardians, anyways).

Now, your point about opportunity attacks is true: both the rogue and the cleric (with this cantrip) will outpace a fighter. There is by no means a guarantee, though, that you'd even get the chance to use that on a given turn, so I'm not really adding it into the equation here.

Edit: I Accidentally a couple of numbers.

[GandalfTheWhite]

Even if you add in Spiritual weapon, you'd have to cast it at the max level possible at your level to be comparative with fighter average (you'd be better served using your concentration on spiritual guardians, anyways).

Spiritual Weapon is non-concentration.

[Submortimer]

Spiritual Weapon is non-concentration.

you...okay, you are correct. The proper answer would be to cast Spirit guardians, then move into the fray. next round, Use cantrip and cast spiritual weapon. next round, destroy everything.

[RakiReborn]

Just nitpicking, but you forgot to change the averages of the level 20 cleric part:
Cleric: 1d12+2d8+3d8+5 (avg. 29.5 34) + potentially 4d4 bonus damage (total avg: 37 44), with +11 to hit.

Apart from that, your point about AoO is right DracoKnight. Most enemies (at least in my experience) wont draw AoO's, so it doesnt come up that often. Apart from that, you need the feat to use the cantrip - while you only have a few ASI's. Using point-buy, you need 4 ASI's to get both STR and Wis to 20. That leaves only one ASI for a feat. This could be used for War Caster, but there are so much other choices: GWF, Polearm Master, Resilient DEX or CON, or even just increasing CON so you have a bit more HP, and a higher save against concentration (point buy leaves a 14 or 15 at best if you go for 16 in STR and WIS after racials). With a variant human you get one more, but it is still not much, unlike the Fighter or Rogue, which 1 or 2 more. Hope i was able to show my point, sort-of at least. Got a little confusing while writing, even for me...
Just to note - I am not against any of you, just trying to give some information that i thought of regarding this discussion.

[Submortimer]

Just nitpicking, but you forgot to change the averages of the level 20 cleric part:
Cleric: 1d12+2d8+3d8+5 (avg. 29.5 34) + potentially 4d4 bonus damage (total avg: 37 44), with +11 to hit.

Apart from that, your point about AoO is right DracoKnight. Most enemies (at least in my experience) wont draw AoO's, so it doesnt come up that often. Apart from that, you need the feat to use the cantrip - while you only have a few ASI's. Using point-buy, you need 4 ASI's to get both STR and Wis to 20. That leaves only one ASI for a feat. This could be used for War Caster, but there are so much other choices: GWF, Polearm Master, Resilient DEX or CON, or even just increasing CON so you have a bit more HP, and a higher save against concentration (point buy leaves a 14 or 15 at best if you go for 16 in STR and WIS after racials). With a variant human you get one more, but it is still not much, unlike the Fighter or Rogue, which 1 or 2 more. Hope i was able to show my point, sort-of at least. Got a little confusing while writing, even for me...
Just to note - I am not against any of you, just trying to give some information that i thought of regarding this discussion.

Thanks! Edit made!

[DracoKnight]

So this is balanced then? I can release this to my players?

[Submortimer]

It is most certainly not OP, so I think it's just fine. Never forget, Booming blade is a feat away for any cleric already, so you're not really risking anything here.

[RakiReborn]

I think it is fine too. You can always just look how it turns out - if it eventually does seem too strong and carries the cleric over the other players, just tone it down a bit.
And true on the booming blade - even better with Tempest's lvl6 ability :P whoops, forgot it was liightning only for a second...
But srsly, it should be fine ;)

[GandalfTheWhite]

I think it is fine too. You can always just look how it turns out - if it eventually does seem too strong and carries the cleric over the other players, just tone it down a bit.
And true on the booming blade - even better with Tempest's lvl6 ability :P whoops, forgot it was liightning only for a second...
But srsly, it should be fine ;)

It really should be lightning and thunder... It irritates me that it's not... :smallannoyed:

[DracoKnight]

It really should be lightning and thunder... It irritates me that it's not... :smallannoyed:

It really should be. Eh, you can use the 6th level feature with your Wrath of the Storm feature. :smallbiggrin: