Life Insurance

[Thrasher92]

I remember reading Canterbury Tales and hearing about priests who would sell "Indulgences", basically pieces of paper that would be forgiveness in advance for something.

I could be misunderstanding what they were but I will move onto my point.

If a powerful church was in an area and they had priests who knew how to raise the dead could/would they sell "life insurance" in the sense of, as long as someone continues paying monthly dues/tithes then, if the church member suffers a mishap and dies, they simply bring him back from the dead.

Priests already are known to sell healing spells and potions (at least in my world), I think this might be just a more advanced form of that.

Life insurance, Curse Insurance, Health Insurance, I think it could be a very lucrative field once the priests had the idea.

[Oramac]

Seems like an all right idea to me. Probably should be prohibitively expensive (like, double the cost of just casting the spell), but other than that I see no issues.

[Fishybugs]

Seems like an all right idea to me. Probably should be prohibitively expensive (like, double the cost of just casting the spell), but other than that I see no issues.

Well, it wouldn't be in one payment, so the cost would be amortized out over time. Just like with car insurance, high-risk subscribers would have higher rates, I presume?

[Keltest]

It would depend on the availability of the components needed to cast the spell as well as the availability of the priests to cast it. in the Forgotten Realms, for example, I could easily see one or more churches setting up a scheme like this, but in a more low-magic world it would be significantly harder to pull off. The cost of training alone would be prohibitive.

[Oramac]

Well, it wouldn't be in one payment, so the cost would be amortized out over time. Just like with car insurance, high-risk subscribers would have higher rates, I presume?

True enough. And I suppose an Adventurer would qualify as "high-risk". So maybe make it 1/4 the cost of the spell per month, or something along those lines.

The downside to that method is, if the adventurer dies within the first 4 months the insurance company (temple) has actually lost money.

[kaoskonfety]

We did something similar with a church (evil) offering resurrection 'coverage' to those who could pay.

They most certainly required cash, in advance, from work-a-day adventurers, you crazy bastards. From kings and nations with significant backing and influence there were more generous guild lines of 'donations' and "permission to freely spread the faith" and 'a regular supply of volunteers and prisoners no one will miss'.

It was a VERY popular church, and VERY wealthy.

And oh so EVIL.

But if you wanted back from the dead they were the only deal in town (the other faiths only sanctioned returning people to life who were basically saints of the church, miracles were not generally for sale).

[Segev]

The real difficulty is that even raise dead is going to require a 9th level cleric to cast it. Those are rare. And that costs 5000 gp per casting, which means that they're a) going to have to have an age limit past which it's no longer valid (to cover the "it's your time" clause without having to waste a diamond on proving it) and b) charge enough that, on average, the death toll amongst those paying is lower than the 5000 per death it will cost the church.

So if the "unnatural death" rate of the population is, say, 2% (which is probably very, very low for a fantasy setting) per year, then they'd need approximately 100 gp per year from the "subscribers." And that's assuming only one death covered per year. Though that could be partially covered by requiring another donation to renew after each death, with a 10% increase or so to the subscription each time as you become "high risk."

It's also worth noting that, for every 2 deaths to be handled in a single day, that's 2 9th-level clerics' 5th level spell slots. Assuming between 20 and 28 Wis. More measures can be taken, but that's still a possibility of keeping a cadre of moderately-high-level clerics busy "full time" wrt their spells/day.

[Ace Jackson]

True enough. And I suppose an Adventurer would qualify as "high-risk". So maybe make it 1/4 the cost of the spell per month, or something along those lines.

The downside to that method is, if the adventurer dies within the first 4 months the insurance company (temple) has actually lost money.

This assumes only one client. If you have a party of four who all open an account, perhaps commanding a bulk discount of 1/6 the cost per adventurer, if they need to put up the cost within the first month, they're only out 2/6 the cost, can up the premiums, and with a modicum of customer service/good bedside manners, now have a party hooked for life. Taken in bulk, this model holds as people generally find the idea of death disagreeable even if they know that they have an out.

Alternatively, name a legal guardian, in the event of death before paying back the cost, for a minor surcharge, gentle repose shall be cast until such a time as the cost is paid back in full by the legal guardian, say a fellow party member.

Finally, varied forms of tontines might not be illegal in the setting...

Also, Segev brings up good points.

[Keltest]

The real difficulty is that even raise dead is going to require a 9th level cleric to cast it. Those are rare. And that costs 5000 gp per casting, which means that they're a) going to have to have an age limit past which it's no longer valid (to cover the "it's your time" clause without having to waste a diamond on proving it) and b) charge enough that, on average, the death toll amongst those paying is lower than the 5000 per death it will cost the church.

So if the "unnatural death" rate of the population is, say, 2% (which is probably very, very low for a fantasy setting) per year, then they'd need approximately 100 gp per year from the "subscribers." And that's assuming only one death covered per year. Though that could be partially covered by requiring another donation to renew after each death, with a 10% increase or so to the subscription each time as you become "high risk."

It's also worth noting that, for every 2 deaths to be handled in a single day, that's 2 9th-level clerics' 5th level spell slots. Assuming between 20 and 28 Wis. More measures can be taken, but that's still a possibility of keeping a cadre of moderately-high-level clerics busy "full time" wrt their spells/day.

As far as clerics go, it would be far easier to have a few mass produce the relevant scrolls than try to keep every church in the nation with a few 9th level clerics on hand.

[Douche]

Well, it wouldn't be in one payment, so the cost would be amortized out over time. Just like with car insurance, high-risk subscribers would have higher rates, I presume?

Actual insurance companies have much more to worry about than simply reviving someone.

If you crash your car, they have to pay for your car, car rental (if you opted for that), a cab home, and most importantly - medical bills. If you broke the other guys neck and it was your fault, they have to pay for that. Not to mention lawyers... And they're balancing millions of peoples insurance at the same time. If two Geico customers crash into each other, then Geico is paying for both of them.

What I'm getting at is, that's a lot of complexity. Meanwhile, if a villager falls of his roof and snaps his neck, all the church has to do is walk over there and cast a spell for 1000gp. Then he's back up, good as new.


Plus, unless the church is going to track down my corpse if I die in the depths of the Shadow Realm, I don't see the point. My homies can just cut off my finger and take me back to town without paying any ridiculous premiums that only make sense in a real world context.

[Fishybugs]

We did something similar with a church (evil) offering resurrection 'coverage' to those who could pay.

They most certainly required cash, in advance, from work-a-day adventurers, you crazy bastards. From kings and nations with significant backing and influence there were more generous guild lines of 'donations' and "permission to freely spread the faith" and 'a regular supply of volunteers and prisoners no one will miss'.

It was a VERY popular church, and VERY wealthy.

And oh so EVIL.

But if you wanted back from the dead they were the only deal in town (the other faiths only sanctioned returning people to life who were basically saints of the church, miracles were not generally for sale).

And who's going to hold them responsible if they don't resurrect? They can claim medically privileged information....HIPAA violation, we can't tell you if they have a policy! They are an evil church, after all.

[Segev]

And who's going to hold them responsible if they don't resurrect? They can claim medically privileged information....HIPAA violation, we can't tell you if they have a policy! They are an evil church, after all.

It's still good business to follow through if possible. The cost is well worth the reputation for being trustworthy enough to do business with.

[kaoskonfety]

And who's going to hold them responsible if they don't resurrect? They can claim medically privileged information....HIPAA violation, we can't tell you if they have a policy! They are an evil church, after all.

Lawful Evil is the best evil.

They certainly fulfilled. Repeat customers are live customers and they most certainly charged more than cost for the service.

And if they failed to resurrect some adventurers who stumbled across the EVIL and were killed by the church itself... well it was because their souls were bound beyond their means to recover (its surprising the kind of 'no questions asked' wizard services you can buy with millions of gold).

[Segev]

And if they failed to resurrect some adventurers who stumbled across the EVIL and were killed by the church itself... well it was because their souls were bound beyond their means to recover (its surprising the kind of 'no questions asked' wizard services you can buy with millions of gold).

"I'm sorry; he just doesn't seem to want to return!"

[gullveig]

Here... Read this: http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/2015/03/02/murder-hobo-insurance-and-the-guild-of-abjuration/

I think you would like what she posts so here is a list of all: http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/category/critical-hits/columns/dungeonomics/

[MaxWilson]

We did something similar with a church (evil) offering resurrection 'coverage' to those who could pay.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. I read this and immediately thought "'protection' money."

"That's a nice face you have. Sure would be a shame to have something nasty and pointed happen to it..."

[Sigreid]

I remember reading Canterbury Tales and hearing about priests who would sell "Indulgences", basically pieces of paper that would be forgiveness in advance for something.

I could be misunderstanding what they were but I will move onto my point.


Just for clarification, what they were were a free pass into heaven, regardless of what kind of a monster you were.

[oxybe]

This sounds a bit like Shadowrun's DocWagon services.

Basically there are three forms of DocWagon and all of them basically amount to "how far are we willing to go to bring your mangled but still technically alive body back into working order? hint: it involves money."

DocWagon's most basic service is effectively a medicalert bracelet that calls out an EMT to drag your body once the firefight is over, keep you on life support until they can get a proper doctor to you in a hospital.

The most expensive service is basically them sending their private SWAT team that's likely more kitted out then the party to emergency medivac the pc to a special area to get priority treatment.

In D&D terms it's basically like having a status/locate person spell tied to a character+crystal ball/slab of stone/etc... once the PC dies, it informs the service of the PC's passing and depending on the service they're paying for, will send someone to cart the corpse back for the pre-paid revival up to a scry and teleport extraction to even interplanar gating in at the higher level.

[Segev]

Just for clarification, what they were were a free pass into heaven, regardless of what kind of a monster you were.

Speaking of Indulgences, one of my favorite things I did in a game was when I was playing a cleric of Thamar (the evil goddess) in an Iron Kingdoms game. He was posing as a cleric of Marrow (the good god) on a boat traveling several days along the river. He sold indulgences to anybody who wanted them. Made himself some money, and probably got a lot of people to commit those sins they were avoiding for fear of divine wrath.

[Knaight]

Seems like an all right idea to me. Probably should be prohibitively expensive (like, double the cost of just casting the spell), but other than that I see no issues.

The entire point of insurance is that it is cheaper than whatever is insured against, but the insurance company makes money because most people end up not using it (or at least not using part of it). This does get a bit messier, as the insurance company is incentivized to not pay out for whatever contrived reason they can think up, and the customer is incentivized to get their money's worth out, but that's the core concept. Insurance to replace a house that burns to the ground is cheaper than a new house; most houses don't burn down and the relevant insurance rakes in the difference.

In this context, limited coverage for violent deaths only (as opposed to old age and stuff) creates the situation where the insurance makes money, allowing it to be cheaper. Most of the people insured would be military officers, nobles worried about assassination, etc. Adventurers would probably be charged significantly higher rates, as they personally are likely to die.

[krugaan]

The entire point of insurance is that it is cheaper than whatever is insured against, but the insurance company makes money because most people end up not using it (or at least not using part of it). This does get a bit messier, as the insurance company is incentivized to not pay out for whatever contrived reason they can think up, and the customer is incentivized to get their money's worth out, but that's the core concept. Insurance to replace a house that burns to the ground is cheaper than a new house; most houses don't burn down and the relevant insurance rakes in the difference.

In this context, limited coverage for violent deaths only (as opposed to old age and stuff) creates the situation where the insurance makes money, allowing it to be cheaper. Most of the people insured would be military officers, nobles worried about assassination, etc. Adventurers would probably be charged significantly higher rates, as they personally are likely to die.

Insanely higher rates, really. Adventurers in the real world would be uninsurable. Far more interesting is that claims adjusters might be adventurers themselves, out investigating claims of death.

That would actually be a pretty fun campaign. Or a good hook, at least.

Who here has seen Trigun?

[REVISIONIST]

Ha, no-one or no-thing is uninsurable, its just that the premium will end up killing you. Thats how Lloyds of London made their fortunes.
It does sound like a great plot hook, like an Ebberonian Investigator.

edit. form the wiki page :Lloyd's serves as a partially mutualised marketplace within which multiple financial backers come together to pool and spread risk.

[krugaan]

Ha, no-one or no-thing is uninsurable, its just that the premium will end up killing you. Thats how Lloyds of London made their fortunes.
It does sound like a great plot hook, like an Ebberonian Investigator.

edit. form the wiki page :Lloyd's serves as a partially mutualised marketplace within which multiple financial backers come together to pool and spread risk.

"Functionally" uninsurable.

Deadly encounters are supposed to be roughly 50/50 odds, right? Those are poor, poor odds that no actuary would consider, and are still relatively common in the DnD world. Every adventure has probably more than one.

Anyway, the whole insurance angle seems like a better and better idea the more I think about it. Your monolithic employer could even turn out to be evil, or good, depending on how you want it to go.

fun ideas:
- you're tasked with determining the fitness of a particular group of adventurers, to determine their relative smarts (and the rates your company is going to charge them). Maybe you are tasked with designing an "obstacle course" of some sort, or a duel or something.
- investigate a life insurance policy that turns out to be kidnapping or fraud instead.
- forced to act as mercenaries to "insure" the king of some country wins his war or whatever, so the company can collect

[REVISIONIST]

Great ideas! Every way you look at it, it just seems to make an even better plot hook or campaign guide. And as long as you are "mutually" spreading the risk, even 50/50 odds don't seem so bad. BTW I have watched Trigun but am more a Ghost in the Shell or Akira for my anime,
or Cowboy Bebop, but Trigun does touch on the insurance side better. Though any merc group (party of adventurers) would make a great
group employed by either the big bad or the big good looking to "realize" on a "sudden" insurance claim.
I really like the idea of a fantasy insurance "company" employing adventurers to investigate the risk for one of their clients.
It just sets up all kinds of things that could go wrong for them, as well as adding depth for them to explore the local government/hiearchy.

[goto124]

- you're tasked with determining the fitness of a particular group of adventurers, to determine their relative smarts (and the rates your company is going to charge them). Maybe you are tasked with designing an "obstacle course" of some sort, or a duel or something.

It's called a dungeon :smallamused:

[Madbox]

Speaking to an insurance assessor could be an interesting event for a party.

The cleric of *insert god* waves the group forward. "Follow me, and I will show you to one of our assessors."

The cleric heads deeper into the temple, passing through an archway into a large room, divided into numerous small rooms by short walls, approximately five feet tall. These short walls appear to be some sort of frame, covered in a fuzzy fabric, almost like a rug or carpet. The cleric stops at the entrance to one of these smaller subdivisions and waves you inside.

"Hey Jerry, here's another group looking for a policy."
"Thanks, Evendur."

Inside the room, barely larger than a closet, sits a dwarf behind a desk made out of thin sheets of metal, painted a mint green color, with a wooden desktop. The dwarf is wearing a black jacket over a set of white robes, with a red cravat tied around his neck. The cravat bears the emblem of *insert god*. There are *one less than the number of party members* chairs, of cheap construction.

"One moment, and then we'll get started." Jerry begins intoning mystic phrases and waving his hands about. A DC 15 Religion Check reveals that he is casting Zone of Truth. "Alright, so you folks are looking to get one of our resurrection plans, specifically the 'Party' plan, correct? We have a series of questions that need answering, and a few forms to fill out, and then we are good to go. So, first off, I'm going to need the name of your Adventurer's Guild. Next, I will need names of each individual who is going to take part in the plan, and their skillset. How many people are capable of fighting? Anyone who is skilled at detecting and disarming traps? Do you have anyone capable of performing miracles in your group? How about spellcasters? If you have either of those, I need to know which miracles and/or spells are known."

"Alright, I see. Are you a new group, or have you completed jobs before? You have? How many? Alright, what was the nature of the last five quests your group embarked on? I need contact information for quest-givers or their next of kin."

"Alright, with your current history and party make-up, I can offer you a rate of 439 gold per plan member per month. Here is a contract."

Jerry hands you the longest scroll you have ever seen. The writing on it is so small that you have trouble making it out.

"Now, included in your contract policy is a standard clause, that if you hire on an additional person capable of performing healing magic, we will reduce your rate by 20 gold pieces, and if you hire on an additional trap-finder, we will reduce rates by 10 gold pieces. The 'Party' plan allows any new members of your guild to opt in at standard rates, no penalties. To opt out of the plan requires six month's payment due, in full, at the time of opting out. You are eligible for an annual evaluation, at which time an assessor will discuss your guild's performance in the past year and decide if your rates need to be altered. Rate changes will be affected by things like number of deaths, the nature of any quests undertaken, any rivalries with other guilds, bounties placed on party member's heads, number and nature of magic items possessed by the party, etc, etc."

Do any party members sign the contract?

[Slipperychicken]

This all sounds great until you realize that the bad guys could also get rezzes.

[RickAllison]

This all sounds great until you realize that the bad guys could also get rezzes.

As a DM, that just makes the idea even better :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

This all sounds great until you realize that the bad guys could also get rezzes.

That's the case, anyway. In fact, they probably get them for free, because bad guys often seem to have inexplicably inexhaustible supplies of wealth.

[JoeJ]

As a DM, that just makes the idea even better :smallbiggrin:

Yes. If PCs get to have comic book deaths, their enemies should too. Among other things, it really cuts down on the number of new NPCs that the DM has to come up with.

[Slipperychicken]

That's the case, anyway. In fact, they probably get them for free, because bad guys often seem to have inexplicably inexhaustible supplies of wealth.

I think you mean "the bad guys are wealthy enough that resurrection costs aren't an issue for them".

[Blacky the Blackball]

If a powerful church was in an area and they had priests who knew how to raise the dead could/would they sell "life insurance" in the sense of, as long as someone continues paying monthly dues/tithes then, if the church member suffers a mishap and dies, they simply bring him back from the dead.

Priests already are known to sell healing spells and potions (at least in my world), I think this might be just a more advanced form of that.

Life insurance, Curse Insurance, Health Insurance, I think it could be a very lucrative field once the priests had the idea.

That's been the default in my campaign worlds for a long time now. People's tithes go to the temple and in exchange the temple provides services.

This includes mundane things like wedding rites and overseeing the normal rituals/sacrifices that the temple and its worshippers do, and also includes healing spells and the raising of the dead.

Of course, this is just part of the general social contract in the same way that the commoners pay tax to their lord and their lord provides a militia to keep them safe. It's not seen as any kind of "insurance" or similar artificial financial scheme - it's just the way the world works. The farmers provide the food, their lord provides protection, and the priests provide healing.

[Segev]

I think you mean "the bad guys are wealthy enough that resurrection costs aren't an issue for them".

Functionally equivalent statements, so yes.