Dungeon Masters Guild's Epic Level Handbook?

[Clistenes]

What do you think about it? I think it will be Hell to balance the players taking different options or Epic Play (Epic Boons+ASI+Feats, or versatility through multiclassing, or specialization through Epic Class Levels), but experienced DM could do it, and stable hit points and AC will help.

[Fishybugs]

Do you have a link or something so we can look at it? I've never heard of it.

[eastmabl]

an experienced DM could do it

This should be assumed for anything epic level.

My 2 cp: while 5E doesn't break down as much at higher levels as older editions, a lot of that is due to some extensive public playtesting. I don't know what amount, if any,of playtesting went into the Epic Level Handbook. I haven't looked at the product, but I would be wary.

[eastmabl]

Do you have a link or something so we can look at it? I've never heard of it.

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/171443/DnD-5e-Epic-Level-Handbook?src=hottest_filtered&filters=45469

[Clistenes]

This should be assumed for anything epic level.

My 2 cp: while 5E doesn't break down as much at higher levels as older editions, a lot of that is due to some extensive public playtesting. I don't know what amount, if any,of playtesting went into the Epic Level Handbook. I haven't looked at the product, but I would be wary.

Well, I think at least the multiclassing option wouldn't break the game. The players keep non-epic hit points and proficiency bonuses, they can just do more non-epic stuff each, adding versatility to their characters.

The bonus feats and Epic Boons option shouldn't be game-breaking either.

I haven't tested the Epic Class Levels route. It increases the proficiency bonuses to +9 at 30th level, which seems manageable (but, as I said, I haven't tested it).

What scares me most is the possibility of using ASI and Epic ASI to raise the ability scores up to 30... that seems the most game-breaking option. A +9 proficiency bonus combined with +10 ability score bonus seems like it would be quite unmanageable...

[ZenBear]

Is it possible for a level 30 mundane to solo a Tarrasque?

[Fishybugs]

Isn't level 20 pretty much equivalent to a demi-god anyway? Is the epic guide mostly for power gamers then? Personally, that high level doesn't appeal, but I guess some people go for that.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I really don't like it. Like most things on there, very poorly thought out.

[Clistenes]

Isn't level 20 pretty much equivalent to a demi-god anyway? Is the epic guide mostly for power gamers then? Personally, that high level doesn't appeal, but I guess some people go for that.

Or people who are attached to their characters and want to RP them a bit more, and have their multiclassed characters cast 9th level spells.

Anyways, 20th level characters are far from demigods in 5th edition. Any CR 12 or higher monster is a deadly or even greater challenge for a lone 20th level character. That includes Beholders, Vampires, Adult Dragons, Mummy Lords, Death Knights, Androsphinxes and a lot of fiends,

[McNinja]

Isn't level 20 pretty much equivalent to a demi-god anyway? Is the epic guide mostly for power gamers then? Personally, that high level doesn't appeal, but I guess some people go for that. I wouldn't say that 20 is equal to a demigod. 20th level is the first step on the path to demigod.

I just purchased the Epic Level handbook, and to me, it seems a bit weak and in some places poorly written/worded. I like the ideas and the formatting is exceptional, but it feels underpowered.

In my campaign world (which uses a ton of stuff from FR), the general power level of demigod begins at 20th level, so the whole thing looks like this:

19th level - peak mortal capabilities. It's not impossible, just very uncommon.
20th level - the first step on the road to becoming a deity - their power is growing into that of a demigod, they can further specialize and find their portfolio (or what they want it to be). Classes get their capstones, becoming incredibly powerful (or in some cases, marginally better), and by this point they have the renown to where normal people are actively worshipping/publicly praising the heroes.
25th level - Demigod status achieved. From this point on, you become exponentially more powerful, although your power beyond this point is tied to the number and conviction of your worshipers.
30th level - lesser deity
35th level - intermediate deity
40th level - greater deity

That's how I'm rolling with it in my campaign. I'll put up my own class adjustments when the time comes.

But remember, the most well-known mortals who ascended to greater deity, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, all gained part of jergal's portfolio as well as having a bunch of powerful artifact and legendary weapons at their disposal.

[Clistenes]

I wouldn't say that 20 is equal to a demigod. 20th level is the first step on the path to demigod.

I just purchased the Epic Level handbook, and to me, it seems a bit weak and in some places poorly written/worded. I like the ideas and the formatting is exceptional, but it feels underpowered.

In my campaign world (which uses a ton of stuff from FR), the general power level of demigod begins at 20th level, so the whole thing looks like this:

19th level - peak mortal capabilities. It's not impossible, just very uncommon.
20th level - the first step on the road to becoming a deity - their power is growing into that of a demigod, they can further specialize and find their portfolio (or what they want it to be). Classes get their capstones, becoming incredibly powerful (or in some cases, marginally better), and by this point they have the renown to where normal people are actively worshipping/publicly praising the heroes.
25th level - Demigod status achieved. From this point on, you become exponentially more powerful, although your power beyond this point is tied to the number and conviction of your worshipers.
30th level - lesser deity
35th level - intermediate deity
40th level - greater deity

That's how I'm rolling with it in my campaign. I'll put up my own class adjustments when the time comes.

But remember, the most well-known mortals who ascended to greater deity, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, all gained part of jergal's portfolio as well as having a bunch of powerful artifact and legendary weapons at their disposal.

I think Ascension should be an entirely different path. Part of the appeal of 5th edition is that characters can be very high level, but still feel like mortal adventurers instead of monstruosities.

I like the multiclassing option for Epic characters, since it helps portray your ancient uber-adventurer types, people like Rowan Darkwood, the ranger 12/cleric of Heimdall 14 factol of the Takers. Still a mortal, but very experienced and able to do a lot of different stuff.

The Epic Boons, Epic ASI and Epic Class Levels seem more in the line of characters like Mordenkainen and Iggwilv, who are starting to push into the higher spheres.

[joaber]

read, didn't liked, because simply don't work. Some concept ideas like epic racial features are interesting, but many things aren't.
I don't think lvl 30 fits in 5e, some multiclassing combinations above 20 start to be OP, to hard to balance.

stay at 20 and get ASI, feats, pact boons, blessings and magic weapons are good enough.

[McNinja]

read, didn't liked, because simply don't work. Some concept ideas like epic racial features are interesting, but many things aren't.
I don't think lvl 30 fits in 5e, some multiclassing combinations above 20 start to be OP, to hard to balance.

stay at 20 and get ASI, feats, pact boons, blessings and magic weapons are good enough. It's easier than you think. I personally use the tarrasque as a template for CR30 creatures, and thankfully the demon lords of the abyss have been given stats in Out of the abyss, so they too can be used (though I feel that they are a bit weak for their supposed power level).

And you're only OP as long as your group is fighting weak ****. If I'm a level 30 barbarian, I sure as hell do not expect to be fighting ancient dragons or liches. I expect to be fighting things like the tarrasque or more powerful creatures, like demon lords or archdevils or even demigods like gargauth.

I mean, at 10th level you're not pitting a hobgoblin captain against the group, you're pitting young dragons or bone devils against the group, and when you reach 20th level you're taking on pit fiends and balors and ancient black dragons.

[joaber]

It's easier than you think. I personally use the tarrasque as a template for CR30 creatures, and thankfully the demon lords of the abyss have been given stats in Out of the abyss, so they too can be used (though I feel that they are a bit weak for their supposed power level).

And you're only OP as long as your group is fighting weak ****. If I'm a level 30 barbarian, I sure as hell do not expect to be fighting ancient dragons or liches. I expect to be fighting things like the tarrasque or more powerful creatures, like demon lords or archdevils or even demigods like gargauth.

I mean, at 10th level you're not pitting a hobgoblin captain against the group, you're pitting young dragons or bone devils against the group, and when you reach 20th level you're taking on pit fiends and balors and ancient black dragons.

Well, Tiamat is a CR30, and is a challange waaay bigger than tarrasque. Because, well, one lvl 20 druid can defeat tarrasque without any problem, just some 4 minutes. But if I confront Tiamat as a lvl 30 PC, I can true polymorph in her but if I drop to 0, I'm back to my real form, with TWO 9th lvl spell slots yet. If I can defeat Tiamat easily and alone, what will be my next challange? PvP doesn't work, because the damage output is bigger than the HP, who win iniciative, win. Some multiclass combinations can do mora than 1000 of damage in a nova round.

but well, you can rebuild all the monsters, make Tiamat CR40 and limit a lot of things to fit in this new thing that 5e actually can't stand.

So, you need to change more things that you think.

[altfuldisch]

Hi there,

The work you are referencing is based on this post from may of last year: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412968-5e-Epic-Classes-(levels-21-30)&p=19195620#post19195620

It is my work that has been compiled and changed, without my permission I might add. It was just changed to a version 2.0, where a lot (but not all) of my stuff was removed, after I informed the creator, that I didn't want my stuff there, as I was working on a massively revised version.

If any of you are interested, here's the cover art for what I'll be releasing: Epic Level Handbook cover (http://imgur.com/prVvZRS)



I am currently in the process of getting permission from various artists to include their works in the book. This might take a while, depending on how fast they answer. But otherwise the book is completed. I'll put up a link here once it goes up.

/altfuldisch

[McNinja]

Hi there,

The work you are referencing is based on this post from may of last year: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412968-5e-Epic-Classes-(levels-21-30)&p=19195620#post19195620

It is my work that has been compiled and changed, without my permission I might add. It was just changed to a version 2.0, where a lot (but not all) of my stuff was removed, after I informed the creator, that I didn't want my stuff there, as I was working on a massively revised version.

If any of you are interested, here's the cover art for what I'll be releasing: Epic Level Handbook cover (http://imgur.com/prVvZRS)



I am currently in the process of getting permission from various artists to include their works in the book. This might take a while, depending on how fast they answer. But otherwise the book is completed. I'll put up a link here once it goes up.

/altfuldisch Well ****, now I feel bad for paying for the other one. I'll definitely buy yours to make up for that :D

[altfuldisch]

Well ****, now I feel bad for paying for the other one. I'll definitely buy yours to make up for that :D

Don't feel bad, you couldn't know. Besides, he's a good guy... we just disagree on some stuff :)

And I'm stoked if just one person purchases my book when it goes up. I've put well over 80 hours into it thus far... if there's just a little payoff, that'd be great! So thanks in advance :D

[druid91]

Considering that Wizards become a strategic asset rather than tactical asset at level 17 when 9th level spells come into play.... I cannot imagine going up to level 30 would be a good idea.

[McNinja]

Like the first couple of posts said... A good DM can handle the change and the vast amount of homebrew required. A bad DM simply says it's too OP because dragons too out at CR24.

At 30th level, you're not fighting dragons. You're fighting demon lords, devilish generals, and things even more strange and terrifying.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Considering that Wizards become a strategic asset rather than tactical asset at level 17 when 9th level spells come into play.... I cannot imagine going up to level 30 would be a good idea.

A good wizard is a strategic asset long before that.

[Clistenes]

Well, Tiamat is a CR30, and is a challange waaay bigger than tarrasque. Because, well, one lvl 20 druid can defeat tarrasque without any problem, just some 4 minutes. But if I confront Tiamat as a lvl 30 PC, I can true polymorph in her but if I drop to 0, I'm back to my real form, with TWO 9th lvl spell slots yet. If I can defeat Tiamat easily and alone, what will be my next challange? PvP doesn't work, because the damage output is bigger than the HP, who win iniciative, win. Some multiclass combinations can do mora than 1000 of damage in a nova round.

but well, you can rebuild all the monsters, make Tiamat CR40 and limit a lot of things to fit in this new thing that 5e actually can't stand.

So, you need to change more things that you think.

Characters won't instantly go from 20 to 30 level. I don't think playing a 21-24 level character would be so different from playing a 20 level character.

[SharkForce]

spellcasters are going to get absolutely terrifying if you let their ability scores go up to 30. DC 24 saving throws properly targeted are no joke.

[Corran]

Tanking will be affected too. With even higher attack bonuses, while at the same time AC remains the same, and hit points increase, tanking will become almost entirely a matter of damage absorbtion than damage avoidance.

[druid91]

A good wizard is a strategic asset long before that.

I was mostly basing it on the fact that at 17th level the Wish/Simulacrum trick comes online and a Wizard of that level could theoretically field an army of themselves Agent Smith style.

[SharkForce]

I was mostly basing it on the fact that at 17th level the Wish/Simulacrum trick comes online and a Wizard of that level could theoretically field an army of themselves Agent Smith style.

much like pun-pun, that was pretty much only ever a theoretical build. yes, it's what the rules allow... no, I don't expect any reasonable DM to ever let me actually do it, nor would I want them to.

practically speaking, well before then the wizard is getting access to things like infinite duration controlled zombies (finger of death), the ability to recruit almost anything that will work as mercenaries (mass suggestion), etc.

[joaber]

Characters won't instantly go from 20 to 30 level. I don't think playing a 21-24 level character would be so different from playing a 20 level character.

My problem with levels above 20 is multiclass, there is some cut levels with great power, and now you can combine than. Like be a fighter with 3 attacks (level 11) and paladin superior smite (11 too). Or make the features above lvl 20 to strong, so anyone how multiclassed now is far behind. Besides, all bounded accuracy start to fall of. You have 20 levels to make a status 16 turn in 20, now you have 10 to make a 20 be 30.

I just think is better to keep getting new ASI, feats, pact boons, home brew features, but you're still level 20. Or open a new count, you're not getting more class levels anymore, you're above this.

[McNinja]

My problem with levels above 20 is multiclass, there is some cut levels with great power, and now you can combine than. Like be a fighter with 3 attacks (level 11) and paladin superior smite (11 too). Or make the features above lvl 20 to strong, so anyone how multiclassed now is far behind. Besides, all bounded accuracy start to fall of. You have 20 levels to make a status 16 turn in 20, now you have 10 to make a 20 be 30.

I just think is better to keep getting new ASI, feats, pact boons, home brew features, but you're still level 20. Or open a new count, you're not getting more class levels anymore, you're above this. instead of thinking about it from a mechanical side, think about it as an evolution of the character; a war cleric could gain levels in fighter, and arcane trickster could gain levels in wizard, a fighter who fancies himself a warrior for his god, but never could really grasp the whole "spellcasting" thing could gain levels in paladin as the divine knowledge is given to him by that god.

Does it break things mechanically? Of course. But then again, gods do that.

[altfuldisch]

My problem with levels above 20 is multiclass, there is some cut levels with great power, and now you can combine than. Like be a fighter with 3 attacks (level 11) and paladin superior smite (11 too). Or make the features above lvl 20 to strong, so anyone how multiclassed now is far behind. Besides, all bounded accuracy start to fall of. You have 20 levels to make a status 16 turn in 20, now you have 10 to make a 20 be 30.

I just think is better to keep getting new ASI, feats, pact boons, home brew features, but you're still level 20. Or open a new count, you're not getting more class levels anymore, you're above this.

Multiclassing is HARD to balance, no doubt. I don't think its a good argument, that multiclassed characters start to fall behind. That's just like people who already have a tiefling, can't be variant tiefling after the release of Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. But their next character can be!
You can't hold back on making new stuff, based on how it might affect existing classes. It's all just more options, and any table is fully entitled to ignore or use anything they wish.

Regarding bounded accuracy: Yes, increasing proficiency bonus past +6, really starts to screw with bounded accuracy.

[Corran]

Multiclassing is HARD to balance, no doubt. I don't think its a good argument, that multiclassed characters start to fall behind. That's just like people who already have a tiefling, can't be variant tiefling after the release of Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. But their next character can be!
You can't hold back on making new stuff, based on how it might affect existing classes. It's all just more options, and any table is fully entitled to ignore or use anything they wish.

Regarding bounded accuracy: Yes, increasing proficiency bonus past +6, really starts to screw with bounded accuracy.
Respectfull disagree. Multiclassing is a serious issue. If epic levels tend indeed to make multiclass characters pay a greater price, then multiclassing loses in value. Why would I want sth that is perfectly valid from both an rp and mechanic point of view, and is an option since I started playing dnd, become a worthless choice, when it deserves both thematically and mechanically(?, maybe not with epic levels in play) to exist?

[altfuldisch]

Respectfull disagree. Multiclassing is a serious issue. If epic levels tend indeed to make multiclass characters pay a greater price, then multiclassing loses in value. Why would I want sth that is perfectly valid from both an rp and mechanic point of view, and is an option since I started playing dnd, become a worthless choice, when it deserves both thematically and mechanically(?, maybe not with epic levels in play) to exist?

I don't mean multiclassing should be the inferior choice all the time. I just meant that you shouldn't not create new options, just because multiclassing options that were optimal before, aren't the optimal anymore. Say if you went with warlock 3 | sorcerer 17. Then epic classes come out, and you cannot get the sorcerer level 28 ability because you put 3 levels in warlock instead of 2. Well, too bad! Try it with your next char. That's all I meant :) Of course multiclassing should be an option!

[charlesk]

5e is barely close to balanced at level 15. I can't imagine what a mess it would be at level 30. Even WOTC has basically disavowed responsibility for their own product at the high levels. Some of the high-level abilities are so glaringly obviously overpowered that it's like they just got bored and stopped playtesting at some point.

I DMed a short campaign with a group of level 15s and it was.. bizarre.

[rlc]

I was mostly basing it on the fact that at 17th level the Wish/Simulacrum trick comes online and a Wizard of that level could theoretically field an army of themselves Agent Smith style.

Stop trying to make Simulacrum cheese happen. It's not going to happen.

[joaber]

I don't mean multiclassing should be the inferior choice all the time. I just meant that you shouldn't not create new options, just because multiclassing options that were optimal before, aren't the optimal anymore. Say if you went with warlock 3 | sorcerer 17. Then epic classes come out, and you cannot get the sorcerer level 28 ability because you put 3 levels in warlock instead of 2. Well, too bad! Try it with your next char. That's all I meant :) Of course multiclassing should be an option!

Like I said, you can create new options, but you can't gain any class level above 20. Create your own racial features, class features, pact boon, feats to keep evolving. This way still can give you a incredible power. But is way easier to keep the "balance" of the players and challanges.
You want to make a stronger feature above 20? Ok, but both pure or multiclass can have it. Now you don't need to think in every option for every class and how that will interact with any other option from any other class.

You really can try to make the epic class levels, but is so many variables to think that will:
- take a lot of months to have sure of all combinations still balanced. And probably you'll see you didn't planned all the possibilities when the PCs put in pratice.
- some player will broke the game and that will start ruin the campaing for everyone. It's like give a to powerful magic item to someone, he enjoy so much, you see that you lost the control and the only thing that you can do is take that back, the player will hate to lose the power and the game now ins't the same.

[EvilAnagram]

I just purchased the Epic Level handbook, and to me, it seems a bit weak and in some places poorly written/worded. I like the ideas and the formatting is exceptional, but it feels underpowered.

I had precisely the opposite reaction. Having a +19 to hit alone seems far beyond any reasonable notion of balance. With these rules, a single epic Fighter could easily solo an Ancient Red Dragon, and if the most powerful creatures in the game are nothing to you, you might as well stop playing.

[rlc]

Like I said, you can create new options, but you can't gain any class level above 20.
This actually sounds like a terrible idea. I'm not saying that gaining levels should be the only way to get new things, but if you multiclass, then you should expect not to get the benefits of a single class. That's how opportunity costs work.

[joaber]

This actually sounds like a terrible idea. I'm not saying that gaining levels should be the only way to get new things, but if you multiclass, then you should expect not to get the benefits of a single class. That's how opportunity costs work.

and you didn't gained, and you'll not gain now. And the single class pc not multiclassed and will not multiclass now and this made your character balanced. But feats, ASI, pact boon, is for everyone and is that type of thing you should get now.

[druid91]

Stop trying to make Simulacrum cheese happen. It's not going to happen.

Why wouldn't it happen?

It's much easier to keep to a gentlemans agreement for three levels than for thirteen. Especially if you're trying to throw stuff tougher than Tiamat at them.

[rlc]

Why wouldn't it happen?

It's much easier to keep to a gentlemans agreement for three levels than for thirteen. Especially if you're trying to throw stuff tougher than Tiamat at them.

Making tons of clones/simulacra of yourself annoys the gods, so they start sending those things at you to get you to knock it off.

[arrowstorm]

There becomes a point where I think, as a player, it would not be fun. A level 29 fighter archer has a to-hit of +10 (from dex), +9(Prof.), and a +6 from archery. This gives a total of +25, the AC of the Tarrasque is 25. I have 6 attacks. I can only miss on nat 1's. For me to not hit the Tarrasque (a titan so powerful there is only one) in a given turn has the probability of occurring 0.000000015625% of the time. That just isn't as fun to me. (I just did .05^6, if that's wrong, sorry)

[McNinja]

There becomes a point where I think, as a player, it would not be fun. A level 29 fighter archer has a to-hit of +10 (from dex), +9(Prof.), and a +6 from archery. This gives a total of +25, the AC of the Tarrasque is 25. I have 6 attacks. I can only miss on nat 1's. For me to not hit the Tarrasque (a titan so powerful there is only one) in a given turn has the probability of occurring 0.000000015625% of the time. That just isn't as fun to me. (I just did .05^6, if that's wrong, sorry)
I agree that at a point it could be very boring, although I think using the tarrasque is kind of a bad example (since it's designed for characters at 20th level with some magic weapons, not for 29th level characters, which stomp all over bounded accuracy).

After characters reach 21st level, the first order of business is creating epic-level foes for them to face... which pretty much just means everything gets legendary actions and +2-5 AC. Maybe some spellcasting.

[Clistenes]

There becomes a point where I think, as a player, it would not be fun. A level 29 fighter archer has a to-hit of +10 (from dex), +9(Prof.), and a +6 from archery. This gives a total of +25, the AC of the Tarrasque is 25. I have 6 attacks. I can only miss on nat 1's. For me to not hit the Tarrasque (a titan so powerful there is only one) in a given turn has the probability of occurring 0.000000015625% of the time. That just isn't as fun to me. (I just did .05^6, if that's wrong, sorry)

That's the reason I said that raising ability scores to 30 plus +9 epic proficiency bonuses seemed the most unmanageable route, and that the multiclass option plus bonus feats (and maybe barring ability scores above 20) seemed the most manageable.

But as I said earlier, PCs aren't going to get 30 class levels and maximum ability scores right after going Epic. Playing a Sorcerer 30 with Charisma 30 may be boring, but, what about a Sorcerer 21 with Charisma 20?

[JoeJ]

After characters reach 21st level, the first order of business is creating epic-level foes for them to face... which pretty much just means everything gets legendary actions and +2-5 AC. Maybe some spellcasting.

How about making them fight a wizard who's learned the secret of making Wish/Simulacrum shenanigans actually work.

[SharkForce]

That's the reason I said that raising ability scores to 30 plus +9 epic proficiency bonuses seemed the most unmanageable route, and that the multiclass option plus bonus feats (and maybe barring ability scores above 20) seemed the most manageable.

But as I said earlier, PCs aren't going to get 30 class levels and maximum ability scores right after going Epic. Playing a Sorcerer 30 with Charisma 30 may be boring, but, what about a Sorcerer 21 with Charisma 20?

starts to get out of hand fast. even a +1 to save DC means any saving throw with a penalty just fails. no roll, you just fail (natural 20 saving throw is not an auto-success). and if you can force disadvantage, it's only 1 in 400. as you keep bumping the DC, that just keeps getting worse. by the time we're talking +9 proficiency and +10 from ability modifier, any saving throw that doesn't have a +7 at least is an automatic failure. that is, monsters are either proficient in a save, or have at least a 24 in that attribute, or they just don't even get to try to resist what you're doing... but even a +2 beyond no-item current max can get really dicey, because that's when any creature without a bonus no longer has a chance to succeed, which kinda breaks bounded accuracy in a big way.

and of course it gets worse if the PC manages to get their hands on something to further boost their DC (but that problem already exists in core if you give out those items).

[eastmabl]

There becomes a point where I think, as a player, it would not be fun. A level 29 fighter archer has a to-hit of +10 (from dex), +9(Prof.), and a +6 from archery. This gives a total of +25, the AC of the Tarrasque is 25. I have 6 attacks. I can only miss on nat 1's. For me to not hit the Tarrasque (a titan so powerful there is only one) in a given turn has the probability of occurring 0.000000015625% of the time. That just isn't as fun to me. (I just did .05^6, if that's wrong, sorry)

I know that it's overkill, but the tarrasque is immune to nonmagical weapon damage. Thus, you need to have at least a +1 weapon to harm the tarrasque, and you'll have +26 to hit if you want to do any damage at all. (Also, I would assume that a fighter/archer should have archery as a fighting style, so there's another +2 to attack).

In 5e, big creatures can get solo'd far too easily, so epic levels should give you more of an XP budget to add monsters to the big fights with the tarrasque and Tiamat.

[EvilAnagram]

If you need both the Tarrasque and Tiamat to balance an encounter against the party then all balance has gone out the window.

[altfuldisch]

Okay, here's an update on the book.

It has been taken down now. As I wrote earlier in the thread, it is based off of my post from May 2015 (I made it when I was completely new to 5e, and that's why bounded accuracy is completely out of control - you can find the link in my signature), and the guy who put it on DMsGuild didn't have my permission to use my stuff. All while he was making money off of my work, I was working on making it better. It's taken 90+ hours so far, but I'm about done now. Just working on getting permission to use some artwork in the book.

My version should be on DMsGuild soon. And it won't be shovelware.

My next project, which is quite relevant to the current discussion here, is going to be a book with epic monsters, that pose a challenge to epic level characters. If any of you have any good ideas, don't hesitate to PM them to me :)

[Clistenes]

Okay, here's an update on the book.

It has been taken down now. As I wrote earlier in the thread, it is based off of my post from May 2015 (I made it when I was completely new to 5e, and that's why bounded accuracy is completely out of control - you can find the link in my signature), and the guy who put it on DMsGuild didn't have my permission to use my stuff. All while he was making money off of my work, I was working on making it better. It's taken 90+ hours so far, but I'm about done now. Just working on getting permission to use some artwork in the book.

My version should be on DMsGuild soon. And it won't be shovelware.

My next project, which is quite relevant to the current discussion here, is going to be a book with epic monsters, that pose a challenge to epic level characters. If any of you have any good ideas, don't hesitate to PM them to me :)

I'm eager to read it.

[McNinja]

Okay, here's an update on the book.

It has been taken down now. As I wrote earlier in the thread, it is based off of my post from May 2015 (I made it when I was completely new to 5e, and that's why bounded accuracy is completely out of control - you can find the link in my signature), and the guy who put it on DMsGuild didn't have my permission to use my stuff. All while he was making money off of my work, I was working on making it better. It's taken 90+ hours so far, but I'm about done now. Just working on getting permission to use some artwork in the book.

My version should be on DMsGuild soon. And it won't be shovelware.

My next project, which is quite relevant to the current discussion here, is going to be a book with epic monsters, that pose a challenge to epic level characters. If any of you have any good ideas, don't hesitate to PM them to me :)


I'm eager to read it.

Take a look at this:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468639-5e-EPIC-MONSTER-UPDATES

It was originally on the WOTC forums but got moved to enworld when those forums were closed. Great stuff here, and suitably epic.

[altfuldisch]

Take a look at this:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468639-5e-EPIC-MONSTER-UPDATES

It was originally on the WOTC forums but got moved to enworld when those forums were closed. Great stuff here, and suitably epic.

Wow, that's quite good! Thanks for the link! :)

[Clistenes]

Take a look at this:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468639-5e-EPIC-MONSTER-UPDATES

It was originally on the WOTC forums but got moved to enworld when those forums were closed. Great stuff here, and suitably epic.

Thank you very much.

[Vogonjeltz]

What do you think about it? I think it will be Hell to balance the players taking different options or Epic Play (Epic Boons+ASI+Feats, or versatility through multiclassing, or specialization through Epic Class Levels), but experienced DM could do it, and stable hit points and AC will help.

So this is some kind of untested homebrew? I guess that's as interesting as any other shoot from the hip homebrew on the internet. (Not.)