View Full Version : Need DMing advice, how to handle buffs
JackCain
2016-01-29, 04:46 PM
So, my players really like to load up on buffs...I've currently got a Changeling Egoist to deal with.
What's the best way to deal with players that buff themselves a lot, really drain their resources.
I could just blast them with targetted dispelling, but I don't want to break suspension of disbelief by having sorcerers pop up out of nowhere and spam dispel magic. Are there any better ways to approach this?
ComaVision
2016-01-29, 05:22 PM
They must have made some enemies somewhere that realize they're buffed to the 9s. Of course they'd use that to their advantage.
Lightlawbliss
2016-01-29, 05:31 PM
A trap of targeted or area dispel magic (and/or it's betters) is a common addition to many dungeons in my campaigns. If you are stopping adventurers, their is a good chance dispel magic will help.
Beheld
2016-01-29, 05:52 PM
If they are spending spells buffing, then they are expending resources. If their enemies can make DC 20+spell level Spellcraft checks, or have previous interactions, they can easily discover that their MO is to walk around super buffed, and then just delay them until their buffs run out.
MesiDoomstalker
2016-01-29, 05:58 PM
Another option is to not allow them the chance to buff. Surprise fights, plot-related time constraints and other ways of catching the party off guard where they must sink or swim will prevent them from always being buffed to high heaven. Or simply increasing the number of (more trivial) fights. Your Egoist will burn PP every fight and will find himself on empty by the end of the day. Most players will realize how vulnerable that leaves them and will be more conservative with their buff stacks.
Darth Ultron
2016-01-30, 04:40 PM
At the most basic, if you feel the characters are "a bit too powerful" for their level, you can up the level of challenges faced. This is right out of the rules.
It is also very easy to "optimize" foes. A couple items, feats, or such can really change a foe.
The non flat battlefield is another way to counter a lot of buffs.
And so is the long game. Have encounters take a long time....like a couple minutes, so buffs run out. Also have the time between encounters be a couple minutes.
Quertus
2016-01-30, 07:38 PM
What's the best way to deal with players that buff themselves a lot,
The same way you deal with any other players - provide them with an entertaining game.
At the most basic, if you feel the characters are "a bit too powerful" for their level, you can up the level of challenges faced. This is right out of the rules.
It is also very easy to "optimize" foes. A couple items, feats, or such can really change a foe.
The non flat battlefield is another way to counter a lot of buffs.
And so is the long game. Have encounters take a long time....like a couple minutes, so buffs run out. Also have the time between encounters be a couple minutes.
How on earth do you make any sort of practical fight last two minutes? That's twenty rounds. That's every single combatant taking twenty turns without a conclusive end of combat one way or the other. Combat is not a slow thing in D&D. Combat that takes a full minute is considered inordinately long and that's assuming we're waiting for all of one side to be dead rather all chance of victory for that side being lost to count it.
Arbane
2016-01-30, 08:24 PM
How on earth do you make any sort of practical fight last two minutes? That's twenty rounds. That's every single combatant taking twenty turns without a conclusive end of combat one way or the other. Combat is not a slow thing in D&D. Combat that takes a full minute is considered inordinately long and that's assuming we're waiting for all of one side to be dead rather all chance of victory for that side being lost to count it.
Waves of weak reinforcements? One fight, then another one in quick succession, drawn by the noise? A running battle?
Waves of weak reinforcements? One fight, then another one in quick succession, drawn by the noise? A running battle?
Notice that none of those work at so much as mid-level and some not even at level one. This is because there are ways of immediately rending or occupying hoards of weaklings, 1-5 rounds twice doesn't equal 20, and there are ways of preventing any given method of running short of out and out teleport retreat. This is not a game where combat resolves slowly. For that to be the case optimization of defense would have to outstrip offensive optimization by a wide margin. Regardless of system knowledge those two tend to be at least somewhat close to parity or for offense to be favored. This is true up until the point where people are powerful enough that conflict is meaningless, but will hold at OP below that.
Beheld
2016-01-30, 09:02 PM
How on earth do you make any sort of practical fight last two minutes? That's twenty rounds. That's every single combatant taking twenty turns without a conclusive end of combat one way or the other. Combat is not a slow thing in D&D. Combat that takes a full minute is considered inordinately long and that's assuming we're waiting for all of one side to be dead rather all chance of victory for that side being lost to count it.
Well first off, I seriously doubt the problem is ever buffs that last 20 rounds. Are you level 20? Who cares about balance, either you Gate in the enemy or they Gate you and either way buffs don't matter.
Are you not level 20, then the duration of round per level buffs is drastically less, and minute per level is drastically more.
Second off, How about "I'm an Ice Devil so I have Greater Teleport as well, the ability to see the party from further away, and at will illusion abilities." If your monsters refuse to kite or harass players, that's their own fault.
LTwerewolf
2016-01-30, 09:21 PM
Make their work day longer. Sure, you can spend 80% of your resources buffing for the first fight, but you still have the rest of the dungeon to go, which has a time limit of a few hours on it. Plenty of time to complete it, but not enough time to stop and rest between starting and stopping. If they feel comfortable blowing their load for fights, it means you've taught them not to expect many of them, in which case they're smart to do it. When you start extending time frames, game balance changes a lot. Suddenly classes like tob and warlock have more merit. Suddenly the limited castings per day of the psychic warrior and half casters are a thing. You start seeing full casters seeing if they can find uses for low level spells so as to keep their high level ones until they really need it. Your problem isn't the dude buffing. Your problem is the 10 minute workday.
Darth Ultron
2016-01-30, 09:26 PM
How on earth do you make any sort of practical fight last two minutes?
You simply have a fight where the two sides don't just stand five feet from each other in a flat place and make attacks until one of them (the hero Pc, always, wink wink) dies.
You don't have to ''fight'' each round of combat, you just need to keep the clock running.
Another great way to do it is the ambush type fight (think Alien or any horror type movie). So the foe/monster attacks and retreats....for minutes. Way long enough for the buffs to fade. And sure, they can re-buff...but only so many times a day. And a monster/foe that attacks and retreats for five minutes over an hour can drain all the buffs.
The same way you can add time between encounters. So encounter 1 is at 11 am, but encounter 2 is not until 1 pm.
You simply have a fight where the two sides don't just stand five feet from each other in a flat place and make attacks until one of them (the hero Pc, always, wink wink) dies.
You don't have to ''fight'' each round of combat, you just need to keep the clock running.
Another great way to do it is the ambush type fight (think Alien or any horror type movie). So the foe/monster attacks and retreats....for minutes. Way long enough for the buffs to fade. And sure, they can re-buff...but only so many times a day. And a monster/foe that attacks and retreats for five minutes over an hour can drain all the buffs.
The same way you can add time between encounters. So encounter 1 is at 11 am, but encounter 2 is not until 1 pm.
The problem with that is no PC past a certain level of power is going to just calmly sit around and let their enemy stall for five minutes. As mentioned previously there are simply far too many mechanisms for cutting to the quick for even remotely evenly matched opponents to take time killing each other. If one side is significantly stronger they can deliberately ignore the weaker one. That luxury doesn't exist in an even fight.
Sacrieur
2016-01-31, 01:30 AM
Anything the players can do, the DM can do better.
I always tell my players this anytime they come up with clever exploits.
---
One of the things about buffs and loads of magical equipment is that they light you up like a christmas tree. It's pretty much impossible to stealth during it. Telling a rogue that she was spotted by a wizard with permanent arcane sight is one of the highlights of my day.
Frosty
2016-01-31, 01:40 AM
That's what non-detection is for.
Andezzar
2016-01-31, 01:48 AM
Anything the players can do, the DM can do better.
I always tell my players this anytime they come up with clever exploits.Exactly. I made the experience that monsters that work together (like the PCs should) are particularly difficult to deal with. I once shut the PC casters down with a combination of Silence and Black Tentacles.
One of the things about buffs and loads of magical equipment is that they light you up like a christmas tree. It's pretty much impossible to stealth during it. Telling a rogue that she was spotted by a wizard with permanent arcane sight is one of the highlights of my day.Permanent Arcane Sight is pretty high level stuff, but non-permament Arcane Sight can be done by level 5.
Sacrieur
2016-01-31, 02:16 AM
That's what non-detection is for.
Hilariously by strict interpretation the nondetection spell doesn't protect itself from being detected, or spells cast on the creature. Further they still get a CL check.
Hilariously by strict interpretation the nondetection spell itself doesn't protect itself from being detected, or spells cast on the creature. Further they still get a CL check.
If you want to take this to the most absurd levels possible immediately we simply get vecna blooded AKA the infinite bane of all divination spells that exist or ever will exist.
Toilet Cobra
2016-01-31, 11:59 AM
How on earth do you make any sort of practical fight last two minutes?
Interject a little story. They take out Hobgoblin Guards 1-6 but in the meantime, the bridge they were guarding was raised by the guards on the other side! They can retreat, giving those other Hobs the chance to warn the whole keep, or they can find a way across... and the clock is ticking on those buffs the whole time!
Interject a little story. They take out Hobgoblin Guards 1-6 but in the meantime, the bridge they were guarding was raised by the guards on the other side! They can retreat, giving those other Hobs the chance to warn the whole keep, or they can find a way across... and the clock is ticking on those buffs the whole time!
Teleport effect or flight effect. Problem solved in one round with a relatively low level effect. How low level depends on the size of the bridge, but it will never be higher than basic teleport as you can literally see the destination.
Alternatively ranged attack effects if the distance isn't long and you don't have movement utility.
Also, double check the bonus types. There's a discrete number of bonus types that can be applied to each entry in a stat block; the more common spells, class abilities, and magic items tend to overlap.
Elxir_Breauer
2016-02-01, 05:37 AM
A simple Detect Magic is enough to put a halt on stealthy types buffed up, or even with a single magic item. Granted, that's only a 60' cone in front of the user, but they can concentrate on that as long as they want as far as combat timing goes. More powerful spells, like (Greater)Arcane Sight can make that even better, as stated previously. As for a time-stretched engagement, low level is where this tactic works best, above 5th or so and there's entirely too much mobility involved to keep it up.
(Greater)Dispel magic and the like are likely the easiest way at the higher levels, but usually only with a boss-level caster, and why are they gonna waste the spell slots on Dispels when they can pop off a SoS/L/D and simply eliminate an opponent in one shot, or at least make them less effective? I could see going the Dispel route with custom scrolls using their full caster level, 1d4 such for the entire fight (or less, depending on how badly you feel like screwing the buffing strategy).
Since this is an Egoist (rereading the OP) I'd suggest the occasional monster with a Dispel Psionics PLA, or even a Null Psionics Field (or even the magic equivalents if transparency is in effect). If using Psionic foes, a Power Stone or two occasionally of Dispel Psionics would do the same work as scrolls of Dispel Magic (in this case, a higher Manifester Level version than baseline would be required to match Greater Dispel Magic).
Segev
2016-02-01, 01:43 PM
If the party uses a teleport or flight effect, it's still another resource drained.
Do your parties one-spell solve entire dungeons in 1 round? If not, then something is making those dungeons take more than 1 round. Use the same tactics to make an encounter take more than 1 round. If the party uses powers to overcome the encounter, they won't have them later for the next one.
If the party uses a teleport or flight effect, it's still another resource drained.
Do your parties one-spell solve entire dungeons in 1 round? If not, then something is making those dungeons take more than 1 round. Use the same tactics to make an encounter take more than 1 round. If the party uses powers to overcome the encounter, they won't have them later for the next one.
It takes at least a few rounds to do a proper paranoid search for loot after you've killed everything. That's what's unique to dungeons. Individual fights within the dungeon are still taking two to three rounds unless we've hit high level where all combats are decided within the first round.
Segev
2016-02-01, 04:54 PM
It takes at least a few rounds to do a proper paranoid search for loot after you've killed everything. That's what's unique to dungeons. Individual fights within the dungeon are still taking two to three rounds unless we've hit high level where all combats are decided within the first round.
And I imagine there are more than a few rounds between fights, as well, even if the loot-searching is counted as part of the fight.
So the hit-and-run tactics can involve hiding and other wise paranoia-inducing behaviors, so now the PCs must take time to find the jerk.
Haladir
2016-02-01, 05:08 PM
So, my players really like to load up on buffs...I've currently got a Changeling Egoist to deal with.
What's the best way to deal with players that buff themselves a lot, really drain their resources.
I could just blast them with targetted dispelling, but I don't want to break suspension of disbelief by having sorcerers pop up out of nowhere and spam dispel magic. Are there any better ways to approach this?
A big part of the game is resource management. If the PCs are regularly going nova on one encounter and then resting for the day, you'll need to encourage them to change their play style.
Don't let them have a 15-minute adventuring day: Make the PCs actually manage their resources so that they have to consider whether this is the encounter to use a particular resource on. An easy way to do this is to put the adventure on a clock: The PCs know that a X time Something Bad happens. Thus, they can't rest for the day and recharge their abilities after every encounter.
If they use a "minutes per level" buff, don't let them rush off willy-nilly into the next encounter with a "Hurry! We only have three minutes left of this cool buff!" Put a bunch of traps in the encounter area or between areas: Checking for traps takes time. Maybe they're looking for a MacGuffin but don't know where it's hidden: Thoroughly searching a room takes time. Include non-combat role-playing encounters: the NPC wants to make the PCs tea and have a long chat. Or maybe the NPC is very talkative and prone to ramble. Or tells a long story that's relevant to plot. If the NPC talks at them for half an hour, the PCs' buffs run out.
Have the enemies use terrain and positiioning to make for more memorable-- and longer-- combats. Design the encounter area to have positioning options. Give the enemies options for mobility that can draw out the combat, preventing the martials from standing there and using Full Attack every round. Give the enemies their own buffs that counter some of the PCs' standard tactics. Does the wizard always lead with fireball? The enemy has resist energy—fire running. Do they alway lead with an archery barrage? The enemy has protection from arrows up. Make the battlefield shadowy so that enemy rogues can slink around and sneak attack.
If their enemies are intelligent or have encountered the PCs before, using dispel magic against them is a perfectly valid and reasonable response!
And I imagine there are more than a few rounds between fights, as well, even if the loot-searching is counted as part of the fight.
So the hit-and-run tactics can involve hiding and other wise paranoia-inducing behaviors, so now the PCs must take time to find the jerk.
Depends. The dungeon is one of two things at relatively low levels. Either it's a densely packed murder-closet where there are ambushes behind every corner, and thus done very quickly in a high danger environment, or it's spacious enough that the PCs can find any number of hiding places to rope trick with bedrolls of fast sleep. Remember the wizard actually likes slow times better than anyone else. They give him free holes to exploit for resources that other classes just don't get as effectively or early.
LTwerewolf
2016-02-01, 05:25 PM
Rope trick only works appropriately at 9 and above. That's not really low level. Also keep in mind his issue isn't a wizard. It's a psion.
Andezzar
2016-02-01, 05:31 PM
Rope trick only works appropriately at 9 and above. That's not really low level. Also keep in mind his issue isn't a wizard. It's a psion.A lesser rod of extend spell brings the level down to 5 and I think there was a magic item that reduces the required amount of sleep.
A lesser rod of extend spell brings the level down to 5 and I think there was a magic item that reduces the required amount of sleep.
Yep. The sleeping bag I mentioned is relatively cheap and lets a person get a full night's sleep in one hour. Even if you're group can only afford one you cut the night in half and made sure there were capable guards up for all four or so hours of it. This gets more dramatic still if more than one bag is bought.
Segev
2016-02-01, 05:38 PM
Depends. The dungeon is one of two things at relatively low levels. Either it's a densely packed murder-closet where there are ambushes behind every corner, and thus done very quickly in a high danger environment, or it's spacious enough that the PCs can find any number of hiding places to rope trick with bedrolls of fast sleep. Remember the wizard actually likes slow times better than anyone else. They give him free holes to exploit for resources that other classes just don't get as effectively or early.
Actually, done right, that middle ground isn't so empty as you make it out to be. Rope trick is potent, but it's not all-powerful. And before they can pull it off for an easy 8 hours of rest, they have to hole up in the dungeon proper; that requires a lot more prep and can't necessarily be guaranteed. Older editions ran on the assumption, in fact, that to properly rest, the party had to retreat to the entrance of the dungeon where their hirelings and henchmen would guard them while they slept in camp. Then, they'd have to venture back into the dungeon, braving potentially new monsters that might have moved in while they were out just to get back to where they were before in order to continue. Especially if they did a 15 minute day, and then left 8 hours for everything to recover inside. And if there are any intelligent things in there? Ambushes are EASY to set up given 8 hours of prep time.
Consider how a town would handle a raiding party of mid-level humanoid monsters with a rope trick-using caster supporting them. If every 8 hours, a group of guardsmen and a building are killed and raided, then the enemies "vanish," don't you think something would be done?
That actually could be a cool adventure, now that I think of it.
Actually, done right, that middle ground isn't so empty as you make it out to be. Rope trick is potent, but it's not all-powerful. And before they can pull it off for an easy 8 hours of rest, they have to hole up in the dungeon proper; that requires a lot more prep and can't necessarily be guaranteed. Older editions ran on the assumption, in fact, that to properly rest, the party had to retreat to the entrance of the dungeon where their hirelings and henchmen would guard them while they slept in camp. Then, they'd have to venture back into the dungeon, braving potentially new monsters that might have moved in while they were out just to get back to where they were before in order to continue. Especially if they did a 15 minute day, and then left 8 hours for everything to recover inside. And if there are any intelligent things in there? Ambushes are EASY to set up given 8 hours of prep time.
Consider how a town would handle a raiding party of mid-level humanoid monsters with a rope trick-using caster supporting them. If every 8 hours, a group of guardsmen and a building are killed and raided, then the enemies "vanish," don't you think something would be done?
That actually could be a cool adventure, now that I think of it.
As mentioned previously it's two hours between days with the bedroll counting spell prep time. It also gets a whole hell of a lot more done than ''one group of guardsman and a building.'' Try no less than half of the occupants of the entire dungeon dead in a span of less than five minutes assuming the opposition isn't all muggles.
Segev
2016-02-01, 05:44 PM
As mentioned previously it's two hours between days with the bedroll counting spell prep time. It also gets a whole hell of a lot more done than ''one group of guardsman and a building.'' Try no less than half of the occupants of the entire dungeon dead in a span of less than five minutes assuming the opposition isn't all muggles.
That's a tiny dungeon if they can find 50% of its rooms and monsters in less than 5 minutes, counting all exploration time, time moving between chambers, locks picked, doors broken, traps found/disarmed/triggered, etc.
In my experience, you are VASTLY overstating the case.
LTwerewolf
2016-02-01, 05:56 PM
Sleep does not necessarily equal rest. Even creatures that do not sleep still need 8 hours of rest before they can regain spells. Ring of sustenance does not change that. Also assuming a lesser rod of extend, that's 3000 gold. A full third of a 5th level character's WBL. While this is not an unreasonable amount to spend, it begins being very unreasonable when you consider it is to solve a temporary problem which obviates itself later. What I'm trying to say is it's possible to use rope trick at level 5 (which I will concede as low level) and have it work, but the resources used to do so at this level don't make sense compared to other things they could be doing.
Plus he's still talking about a psion.
That's a tiny dungeon if they can find 50% of its rooms and monsters in less than 5 minutes, counting all exploration time, time moving between chambers, locks picked, doors broken, traps found/disarmed/triggered, etc.
In my experience, you are VASTLY overstating the case.
Low level means it's a lot harder to hide things effectively, especially with a free set of flying eyes that won't trigger any mundane trap by simple dint of not touching any triggers. Further locked doors are a standard action each. Wand of knock is cheap in a caster party. Further we have running and abrupt jaunt to scout with. Much faster and less likely to die than many options. As for time spent between chambers just how big of a dungeon are you going for? Literally hundreds of feet between rooms? For some low level boss?
Edit: The bedroll explicitly works by treating one hour spent sleeping in it as eight. It explicitly allows spell prep.
Beheld
2016-02-01, 06:03 PM
Yep. The sleeping bag I mentioned is relatively cheap and lets a person get a full night's sleep in one hour. Even if you're group can only afford one you cut the night in half and made sure there were capable guards up for all four or so hours of it. This gets more dramatic still if more than one bag is bought.
Unless you have any Divine Casters at all, of course. Or say, a Psion.
Andezzar
2016-02-02, 01:12 AM
Unless you have any Divine Casters at all, of course. Or say, a Psion.In this case the bedroll was mainly used to make rope trick usable by a lower level party, not to cram more than one 15 min adventuring day into 24 hours. With it a character can regain spells and all the other benefits of 8h of sleep in a safe environment at level 3 instead of 9.
BTW what's the proper name for that bedroll and in which book is it?
In this case the bedroll was mainly used to make rope trick usable by a lower level party, not to cram more than one 15 min adventuring day into 24 hours. With it a character can regain spells and all the other benefits of 8h of sleep in a safe environment at level 3 instead of 9.
BTW what's the proper name for that bedroll and in which book is it?
http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/heward-s-fortifying-bedroll
Convenient online source with book, page number, and the full item bio. Sadly the item has a cooldown on how often you can benefit from it, but it's power when combined with rope trick cannot be denied.
zergling.exe
2016-02-02, 02:54 AM
http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/heward-s-fortifying-bedroll
Convenient online source with book, page number, and the full item bio. Sadly the item has a cooldown on how often you can benefit from it, but it's power when combined with rope trick cannot be denied.
One line makes it less useful: "Spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit as normal."
You have to wait 2 days between uses, and any spell slots used in the last 8 hours are not recovered. Normal rest avoids this problem by being 8 hours long. This item takes 7 hours (maybe 6 depending on how the DM decides) after your last cast to get all your spells back.
You still essentially have the 15 minute workday with it.
edit: And you can't share one around with the whole party either, as it only functions once a day.
One line makes it less useful: "Spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit as normal."
You have to wait 2 days between uses, and any spell slots used in the last 8 hours are not recovered. Normal rest avoids this problem by being 8 hours long. This item takes 7 hours (maybe 6 depending on how the DM decides) after your last cast to get all your spells back.
You still essentially have the 15 minute workday with it.
edit: And you can't share one around with the whole party either, as it only functions once a day.
Why would you only buy one? For another point have you considered good old-fashioned long term effects spammed at the start of day? More importantly this allows you to set night watches in parties that need their sleep. The rope trick isn't a surefire solution unless you're dealing with muggles. In all other situations it exists almost entirely to serve as a brief defense to prevent the night fight from being an ambush. This is why I emphasize paranoid tactics. The DM will exploit any obvious holes in your guard with ruthless efficiency.
In any case I'll grant you probably aren't getting literally all your spells back using this in enemy territory. It's a fair chunk though and it only gets fairer as you approach mid levels.
zergling.exe
2016-02-02, 03:53 AM
Why would you only buy one? For another point have you considered good old-fashioned long term effects spammed at the start of day? More importantly this allows you to set night watches in parties that need their sleep. The rope trick isn't a surefire solution unless you're dealing with muggles. In all other situations it exists almost entirely to serve as a brief defense to prevent the night fight from being an ambush. This is why I emphasize paranoid tactics. The DM will exploit any obvious holes in your guard with ruthless efficiency.
In any case I'll grant you probably aren't getting literally all your spells back using this in enemy territory. It's a fair chunk though and it only gets fairer as you approach mid levels.
Going back 10 posts, you did say "Even if your group can only afford one". Also another thing to remember, only Arcane and Psionic (possibly, I don't remember how their's works) casters need rest to be able to prepare spells. Divine casters tend to have one point in the day that they can prepare. Miss it and you're screwed for the day.
So you can refill the Arcane and Psionic character's in the party, but you can't refresh the Divine caster's spells in such a manner. Granted, they don't tend to need their spells to function as much.
Segev
2016-02-02, 08:40 AM
How long do you have search checks take? Are they literally "my raven passed by that room; search check, nothing? Okay move on. Traps found, monster list, good, move in quick before we lose our buffs! Nuke the room, we're done! Move on, raven found and scouted 3 more rooms in those 6 seconds!?"
I mean, that's the kind of speed you're describing for clearing "half a dungeon" in five minutes.
How long do you have search checks take? Are they literally "my raven passed by that room; search check, nothing? Okay move on. Traps found, monster list, good, move in quick before we lose our buffs! Nuke the room, we're done! Move on, raven found and scouted 3 more rooms in those 6 seconds!?"
I mean, that's the kind of speed you're describing for clearing "half a dungeon" in five minutes.
The trap checker isn't the familiar. That job goes to the guy with abrupt jaunt who accomplishes his job with running and jaunting. Also do note that if we aren't allowing that trick I move to the actually less expensive throwing sizable rocks into squares option.
The flyer is primarily a hallway scout and watch system so we have warning when more enemies are about to enter. Search checks DON'T EVEN HAPPEN until everything in the dungeon is dead and we have all the time in the world. Why would you not prioritize the things trying to kill you before grabbing your shinies?
Segev
2016-02-02, 04:25 PM
The trap checker isn't the familiar. That job goes to the guy with abrupt jaunt who accomplishes his job with running and jaunting. Also do note that if we aren't allowing that trick I move to the actually less expensive throwing sizable rocks into squares option.
The flyer is primarily a hallway scout and watch system so we have warning when more enemies are about to enter. Search checks DON'T EVEN HAPPEN until everything in the dungeon is dead and we have all the time in the world. Why would you not prioritize the things trying to kill you before grabbing your shinies?
All I can say is that if you can take 50% of the dungeon in one go, without rest, and they can't have time or position to surprise or control the encounters, and can't barricade or flank, and ... well, really do anything ,apparently, other than sit there and let you beat on them at your leisure on your timetable?
Your DM runs dungeons far more kindly than any DM I've played under. And I've played under some seriously Monty Haul DMs.
All I can say is that if you can take 50% of the dungeon in one go, without rest, and they can't have time or position to surprise or control the encounters, and can't barricade or flank, and ... well, really do anything ,apparently, other than sit there and let you beat on them at your leisure on your timetable?
Your DM runs dungeons far more kindly than any DM I've played under. And I've played under some seriously Monty Haul DMs.
Oh no all of that actually happens. It's just that a party of tier 1 casters can deal with it. Well except the surprise. Surprise rounds can't happen if combat literally doesn't end while in the dungeon. That said any defense to something like this is gonna have to be either defensively minded or very lucky. We don't give people time to get used to us being in one room or hallway after all.
Zweisteine
2016-02-03, 01:34 AM
To add to what others have said about dispelling...
Yeah, the best "solution" to buffed PCes is to dispel. So have some intelligent enemies come by who know what to do about it. Just don't make all the enemies that smart. And don't start with the next boss. Make sure they know there's a risk of losing the buffs before you put them in a life-or-death situation without them.
AzraelX
2016-02-03, 10:05 AM
One of the things about buffs and loads of magical equipment is that they light you up like a christmas tree. It's pretty much impossible to stealth during it. Telling a rogue that she was spotted by a wizard with permanent arcane sight is one of the highlights of my day.
Arcane Sight is specifically restricted to "auras within your sight". It does not penetrate materials, and total concealment breaks line of sight. If the rogue has cover or total concealment, Arcane Sight does not negatively impact their ability to hide, let alone make it impossible.
Detect Magic, on the other hand...
Of course, their rogue could be hiding in darkness 55 feet away from your Arcane Sight wizard, who also happens to have 60-foot darkvision. In that case, the rogue wouldn't have total concealment from the wizard anymore.
Segev
2016-02-03, 12:06 PM
Oh no all of that actually happens. It's just that a party of tier 1 casters can deal with it. Well except the surprise. Surprise rounds can't happen if combat literally doesn't end while in the dungeon. That said any defense to something like this is gonna have to be either defensively minded or very lucky. We don't give people time to get used to us being in one room or hallway after all.
If you're fully optimized Tier 1s, you're operating on full slash-and-burn murderhobo mentality, and the only thing that's going to stand in your way is equal optimization with a similarly scorched-earth approach to halting threats. It's a very different game than even the one being described by the OP.
Caedes
2016-02-03, 12:55 PM
So I am a proponent of messing with Caster's impromptu "resting" bits. And I saw that Rope Trick was brought up as a way to hide a part for resting.
So Rope Trick should still have a faint magical aura of transmutation. (Spell-craft DC 17 I believe). And if you have a a half smart BBEG with counterspell... Gather some tough minions and *pop* they come tumbling out combat ensues. And if they were overconfident and not keeping guard at the window. That is definitely a surprise round.
Now I already hear some people saying that this can be easilly avoided by using the the simple Glamer spell... Well, I would expect this semi smart BBEG would either A be able to discern the actual workings of this level 2 misdirection or have more than just one dispel handy.
Rope Trick, though an amazing spell is not perfect. Take advantage of it. And don't let them sleep or rest.
Running battles are also great for this. Or just running! Time is your ally in games. Not the P.Cs.
Beheld
2016-02-03, 01:47 PM
So I am a proponent of messing with Caster's impromptu "resting" bits. And I saw that Rope Trick was brought up as a way to hide a part for resting.
So Rope Trick should still have a faint magical aura of transmutation. (Spell-craft DC 17 I believe). And if you have a a half smart BBEG with counterspell... Gather some tough minions and *pop* they come tumbling out combat ensues. And if they were overconfident and not keeping guard at the window. That is definitely a surprise round.
Now I already hear some people saying that this can be easilly avoided by using the the simple Glamer spell... Well, I would expect this semi smart BBEG would either A be able to discern the actual workings of this level 2 misdirection or have more than just one dispel handy.
Uh... 1) Rope Trick does still provide an aura that can be detected, but most dungeons in the 5-8 range, when this tactic is mostly used, don't usually have the capability of sweeping every 5ft square of their dungeon with detect magic on the off chance that such a Rope Trick was used (and not some other strategy, like burrowing a hole in the wall, and then using stoneshape to cover it).
2) Since it takes on average 1.5 castings of Dispel Magic to erase your spell, any time you can waste 1.5 of his 3rd level spells for your second level spell, you are winning. An ideal case is just scattering multiple Misdirections, and then laughing when he runs out of slots. Or honestly, just cast the level 1 spell Magical Aura on just like 30 rocks, and scatter then around, then he gets 31 different fain illusions, and he has to guess which one is misdirection.
Meanwhile, you spend two spell slots today (not nothing) and he has no chance.
If you're fully optimized Tier 1s, you're operating on full slash-and-burn murderhobo mentality, and the only thing that's going to stand in your way is equal optimization with a similarly scorched-earth approach to halting threats. It's a very different game than even the one being described by the OP.
You say that as though I ever implied otherwise. Some parties respond to people learning to play powerfully by agreeing to hold back. Others respond by simply having anyone who doesn't understand it asking questions and learning interesting things. Often different players learned different things from each other. For example I learned how to be a horrible person when designing my safehouses from another player who was a dwarf fortress veteran. The DM learned to construct dungeons from this same veteran.
Segev
2016-02-03, 05:08 PM
You say that as though I ever implied otherwise. Some parties respond to people learning to play powerfully by agreeing to hold back. Others respond by simply having anyone who doesn't understand it asking questions and learning interesting things. Often different players learned different things from each other. For example I learned how to be a horrible person when designing my safehouses from another player who was a dwarf fortress veteran. The DM learned to construct dungeons from this same veteran.
The difference is in expectations of what constitutes a "reasonable" dungeon design philosophy. Normally, one assumes the DM is constraining himself to "realistic" dungeons which are not, hopefully, more pointless architecture and ecology-ignoring monsters than you can shake Undermountain at, and that he's not building dungeons designed by paranoid geniuses with enemies that would make the Great Old Ones decide to roll over and sleep for another few eons.
When facing fully-optimized Tier 1s, that goes out the window; the DM does design exactly that kind of paranoid lockdown dungeon crawl, because that's the only kind of dungeon that would be effective. And his BBEGs are either effective, or they're already defeated. Which leads to lovely natural selection explaining why the world has only the most madly brilliant masterminds facing the PCs.
Caedes
2016-02-03, 05:20 PM
The difference is in expectations of what constitutes a "reasonable" dungeon design philosophy. Normally, one assumes the DM is constraining himself to "realistic" dungeons which are not, hopefully, more pointless architecture and ecology-ignoring monsters than you can shake Undermountain at, and that he's not building dungeons designed by paranoid geniuses with enemies that would make the Great Old Ones decide to roll over and sleep for another few eons.
When facing fully-optimized Tier 1s, that goes out the window; the DM does design exactly that kind of paranoid lockdown dungeon crawl, because that's the only kind of dungeon that would be effective. And his BBEGs are either effective, or they're already defeated. Which leads to lovely natural selection explaining why the world has only the most madly brilliant masterminds facing the PCs.
/signed /agreed
The difference is in expectations of what constitutes a "reasonable" dungeon design philosophy. Normally, one assumes the DM is constraining himself to "realistic" dungeons which are not, hopefully, more pointless architecture and ecology-ignoring monsters than you can shake Undermountain at, and that he's not building dungeons designed by paranoid geniuses with enemies that would make the Great Old Ones decide to roll over and sleep for another few eons.
When facing fully-optimized Tier 1s, that goes out the window; the DM does design exactly that kind of paranoid lockdown dungeon crawl, because that's the only kind of dungeon that would be effective. And his BBEGs are either effective, or they're already defeated. Which leads to lovely natural selection explaining why the world has only the most madly brilliant masterminds facing the PCs.
All features rather than bugs. I mean divorce yourself from the idea of the amount of effort it is on both sides and consider one simple abstract. Assuming either that approach or the ''standard'' approach the designers intended would get made into some heroic fantasy movie where all effort would be put in to do the material justice no matter how impractical or expensive, which would you rather WATCH?! Okay thought up an answer? Now imagine that for the people with the aptitude to actually play that the feeling of which to play is multiplied by at least a factor of ten.
Beheld
2016-02-03, 05:43 PM
All features rather than bugs. I mean divorce yourself from the idea of the amount of effort it is on both sides and consider one simple abstract. Assuming either that approach or the ''standard'' approach the designers intended would get made into some heroic fantasy movie where all effort would be put in to do the material justice no matter how impractical or expensive, which would you rather WATCH?! Okay thought up an answer? Now imagine that for the people with the aptitude to actually play that the feeling of which to play is multiplied by at least a factor of ten.
I don't think that's a very good example, there's a legion of media that shows that what people want to watch is dumb fighters do dumb fighter things and succeed because of plat contrivances, rather than intelligent tactics.
Heck, this is a post on gitp right now where the story is in the middle of an arc that would be solved by either: 1) Having a secret mega cleric meeting be dimensional locked, 2) Having a deity be able to make a DC 20 sense motive check to notice that the Dwarven Elders are currently Dominated.
But it will actually be solved by 10% fighting, 20% grit, and 70% plot contrivance.
That makes for a terrible game, but for some reason that I don't understand, it makes up like 95% of all existing media.
I certainly agree that having people actual respond to level appropriate challenges is a better game, but mostly that comes down to the fact that I can count.
Having one type of game is objectively worse than having that same game type, and also being able to support more games. If you only want people to be able to cast 6th level spells, then end your game before level 13.
You can still have those same dungeons where people just walk around clearing rooms, you can just do it at low level.
martixy
2016-02-03, 08:37 PM
How on earth do you make any sort of practical fight last two minutes? That's twenty rounds. That's every single combatant taking twenty turns without a conclusive end of combat one way or the other. Combat is not a slow thing in D&D. Combat that takes a full minute is considered inordinately long and that's assuming we're waiting for all of one side to be dead rather all chance of victory for that side being lost to count it.
That's the million-gold question, innit?
Dispel helps in that regards. As buffing is essentially getting ahead in the action economy, removing buffs means you recover some of that action economy.
And there are other ways to reset and disengage.
A straight on slug-fest isn't going to last long. A run-and-gun might.
As was said - anything players can do, DMs can do better. That's because as a DM you are not subject to the same mechanical restrictions your players are.
Segev
2016-02-04, 09:48 AM
The trick is that you don't make a fight last 20 rounds. You break up the fight over longer periods of time by using hit-and-run tactics, letting NPCs and intelligent monsters retreat and regroup, and throwing delaying tactics in the way.
As has been noted, that last gets a lot harder when dealing with high-optimization Tier 1s at mid to high level, but it's still doable with equal optimization and understanding of the rules. You just have to play it smarter. "Respawn" points via teleportation circles or simply a high-level enemy wizard dropping the monsters in behind them as they're just winding down from the "half-a-dungeon-in-5-minutes" grind is one approach. It doesn't even have to be much at a time; just enough that they can't take their time and climb into the rope trick without having its location seen.
A known-location rope trick becomes a site for a massive ambush (not to mention firing lots of arrows through, possibly with the good ol' portable hole + bag of holding collapsing arrowhead.
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