Paladin / Sorcerer vs Adult White Dragon

[choryukami]

I just wanted to say... this is amazing. I just soloed an Adult White Dragon (CR 13) with my dragonborn paladin.

Location: Skyreach Castle, Hoard of the Dragon Queen.

Character:
Baston "Everstorm" Harkonax
Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 4
Notable Equipment: Hazirawn, Black Dragon Mask, Belt of Hill Giant Strength, Potion of Frost Resistance, Plate Mail.
I decided to use Hazirawn for the fight, against his better judgement (he is vengeance after all). The black dragon mask really didn't factor into the fight much.

Baston knows where the dragon is, so he goes to the corridor. He drinks a Potion of Frost Resistance. He finds the dragon, then he precasts Haste, sets the dragon as his Oath of Enmity, and goes on the attack. Feel free to poke holes in my grasp of the rules, but this was an awful lot of fun to do.

Round 1:
Baston
Quickened Fireball, Dragon passes with Legendary Resistance, 15 fire damage.
Baston makes 3 attacks with advantage for rolls: 20/13, 18/13 and 15/11.
One crit with GWM, two hit with GWM. He burns a fourth level spell slot and two second level spell slots.
Total: 12d6+16d8+30+14 = 154 slashing, radiant and necrotic damage (no cold, so it is full damage), and dragon can’t heal for 1 minute. Dragon is at 31 hp.
Dragon Legendary Action: Tail attack, 27 to hit, 15 bludgeoning damage. Baston is at 62 hp.

Dragon Turn
Frightful Presence: Baston saves with a 13+8 Wisdom Save.
Bite: 8+11 = 19. Baston’s AC is 20 with Haste. Miss.
Claw: 15+11=26. Hit for 13 slashing.
Claw: 10+11=21. Baston casts Shield as a reaction, bringing his AC to 25. Miss.
Baston is at 49 hp.

Round 2:
Baston
Makes 3 attacks with advantage: 8/6, 18/19, 1/14
One normal hit, two hits with GWM.
Total: 12d6+20+14 = 67 slashing, radiant and necrotic. Dragon is at -36. Dragon dies.

WTF. The dragon did not get a chance to even use his breath weapon (which would've sucked because of cold resist and high paladin saves) and the wing buffet thing (which would've probably offered a more decent challenge, but Baston knows Fly).
Part of this was due to GWM comboing with Oath of Enmity, part of it was because of Hazirawn's ridiculous damage (2d6+2d6 necro is pretty insane). Part of it is the combo of Paladin with Sorcerer's enhanced spell slots.

[Skeller]

So pretty cool. Just a couple questions only since you asked people to poke holes. #1 . Did you make concentration checks when taking damage to keep your haste active. #2 How did you cast Fireball when your Sorcerer level is only 4? Also you have some pretty decent gear and a good amount of luck there. Still the stuff good D&D stories are made of.

[MaxWilson]

I have two comments, neither of them criticisms and neither intended to detract from the awesome fun you had:

1.) That dragon was pretty foolish to engage in melee on the ground instead of strafing you repeatedly from the air with his breath weapon and/or tail attack. Of course, it is a white dragon and they are foolish. It was also foolish not to retreat when it was at 31 HP at the end of round one.

2.) One of the things I love about Paladin of Devotion is that they have access to Sanctuary, which would have rocked in this scenario. Just use your bonus action at the end of every turn to Sanctuary yourself, and now the dragon's damage is reduced by about 50% unless it burns legendary resistances on each failed save. As far as I can see you weren't using your bonus action for anything else here.

Anyway, I'm glad you had fun! Nice job!

Edit: I think casting Haste was illegal though, unless you got it from an item. Neither Paladin 6 nor Sorcerer 4 has access to Haste. You're probably misreading the multiclassing rules or the Paladin domain spell rules.

Also, you either got lucky or misunderstood the rules in that your first hit was the crit. You have to declare your smite at the time when you roll your attack (and hit)--you can't roll three attacks and then decide to allocate the biggest spell slot to the one that was a crit. I'm assuming that you just got lucky and critted on the first hit, but I mention it just in case you were doing it the other way, since you asked for people to review your rules.

Again, nice job.

[choryukami]

So pretty cool. Just a couple questions only since you asked people to poke holes. #1 . Did you make concentration checks when taking damage to keep your haste active. #2 How did you cast Fireball when your Sorcerer level is only 4? Also you have some pretty decent gear and a good amount of luck there. Still the stuff good D&D stories are made of.

Yes. I forgot to mention them. But I rolled pretty decently and was not hit very much.

Second question, my group has prescribed to the interpretation of the spell slots and ability to cast spells as, "The Spells known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." Meaning that as long as you have a slot of the spell level, you can learn spells of that level. I realize that's not the most popular interpretation, but with the wording it makes sense to us. Only downside is I only know 4 sorcerer spells and I'm level 10. Shield, Fireball, Fly and Haste.

What did a lot of the damage was the gear and the smites though, and regardless I would have the spell slots.

[MaxWilson]

Yes. I forgot to mention them. But I rolled pretty decently and was not hit very much.

Second question, my group has prescribed to the interpretation of the spell slots and ability to cast spells as, "The Spells known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." Meaning that as long as you have a slot of the spell level, you can learn spells of that level. I realize that's not the most popular interpretation, but with the wording it makes sense to us. Only downside is I only know 4 sorcerer spells and I'm level 10. Shield, Fireball, Fly and Haste.

What did a lot of the damage was the gear and the smites though, and regardless I would have the spell slots.

It's actually illegal according to the PHB multiclassing rules--but 5E is fine with variant rules, so if you want to just declare that you're playing a variant sorcerer, 5E is officially okay with it. That variant is much more powerful than the PHB sorcerer though.

[choryukami]

I have two comments, neither of them criticisms and neither intended to detract from the awesome fun you had:

1.) That dragon was pretty foolish to engage in melee on the ground instead of strafing you repeatedly from the air with his breath weapon and/or tail attack. Of course, it is a white dragon and they are foolish. It was also foolish not to retreat when it was at 31 HP at the end of round one.

2.) One of the things I love about Paladin of Devotion is that they have access to Sanctuary, which would have rocked in this scenario. Just use your bonus action at the end of every turn to Sanctuary yourself, and now the dragon's damage is reduced by about 50% unless it burns legendary resistances on each failed save. As far as I can see you weren't using your bonus action for anything else here.

Anyway, I'm glad you had fun! Nice job!

Edit: I think casting Haste was illegal though, unless you got it from an item. Neither Paladin 6 nor Sorcerer 4 has access to Haste. You're probably misreading the multiclassing rules or the Paladin domain spell rules.

Also, you either got lucky or misunderstood the rules in that your first hit was the crit. You have to declare your smite at the time when you roll your attack (and hit)--you can't roll three attacks and then decide to allocate the biggest spell slot to the one that was a crit. I'm assuming that you just got lucky and critted on the first hit, but I mention it just in case you were doing it the other way, since you asked for people to review your rules.

Again, nice job.


It doesn't actually say you have to declare a smite before you make the attack in the Smite entry. It says, 'when you hit, you can expend a paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage... etc'


I agree, the dragon's tactics probably weren't the best. Maybe I'll do it again and see what happens if he flies and pulls some annoying crap.

[Corran]

To add to the above, you cannot use GWM the way I assume you did. First you decide if you want to use it, and then you roll, not the other way round.

That fight almost killed us (we were lacking 2 party members that day though). Congrats on the victory!

[RaynorReynolds]

Second question, my group has prescribed to the interpretation of the spell slots and ability to cast spells as, "The Spells known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." Meaning that as long as you have a slot of the spell level, you can learn spells of that level. I realize that's not the most popular interpretation, but with the wording it makes sense to us.

It isnt "popular" because your interpretation is wrong. The PH isnt vague at all:

"The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice."

You dont take levels in Sorcerer, you dont get more Sorcerer spells.

[MaxWilson]

It doesn't actually say you have to declare a smite before you make the attack in the Smite entry. It says, 'when you hit, you can expend a paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage... etc'

Right. What I said though was that you can't roll three attacks and then decide to allocate the biggest smites to the crits. You have to decide when you hit if you're going to smite, and with what, before you roll your next attack.

I assume you were doing that already, but I just wanted to make it explicit.

[choryukami]

Just realized a level 10 straight Vengeance Paladin would have Haste anyway =P. That is quite the powerful class on its own. And my dude would have Haste at 11th level.

Anyway, fun exercise, but I see people are getting angry. So, see ya.

[Skeller]

I don't think anyone is getting angry. Sorry if that is the impression you are getting. Just stating the strict rules for multi-classing from the PHB. Honestly the Sorcerer spell slot thing was probably the smallest part of your victory. As you said a straight Vengeance Pally with that gear and luck probably would have done the same.

[RulesJD]

Just realized a level 10 straight Vengeance Paladin would have Haste anyway =P. That is quite the powerful class on its own. And my dude would have Haste at 11th level.

Anyway, fun exercise, but I see people are getting angry. So, see ya.

You broke several important rules:

1. You have to be within 10ft of your Oath target when you Enmity it, so you wouldn't have had so many attacks at advantage.

2. You didn't make a concentration save for the two hits you took. If you failed, you would have been inactive for an entire round because of the way Haste works. That's huge especially considering you didn't seem to be proficient in con saves.

3. Your group is completely ignoring the way the rules work.

4. There's no belt of hill giant strength in that campaign (Rise of Tiamat has one though). So a few of your hits would have been misses without the (presumably) +2 from the Belt.

Next, your DM had no idea what he was doing. A Paladin wants to pre-buff before a fight? Cool, roll for stealth to do so, and at disadvantage from the Plate. Dragon has a massive passive perception and so it would hear you doing so. Dragon Readies his breath weapon for when you round the corner. Even with Frost Resist you're going to get nailed for a ton of damage and have to make a concentration save (that you'd likely fail this time from the damage).

Legendary Action should have been Wing Attack to fly up in the the air to get out of melee range. If you wanted to pursue you'd be screwed (no fly at that level), although you could Misty Step.

[RaynorReynolds]

You broke several important rules:

1. You have to be within 10ft of your Oath target when you Enmity it, so you wouldn't have had so many attacks at advantage.

2. You didn't make a concentration save for the two hits you took. If you failed, you would have been inactive for an entire round because of the way Haste works. That's huge especially considering you didn't seem to be proficient in con saves.

3. Your group is completely ignoring the way the rules work.

4. There's no belt of hill giant strength in that campaign (Rise of Tiamat has one though). So a few of your hits would have been misses without the (presumably) +2 from the Belt.

Next, your DM had no idea what he was doing. A Paladin wants to pre-buff before a fight? Cool, roll for stealth to do so, and at disadvantage from the Plate. Dragon has a massive passive perception and so it would hear you doing so. Dragon Readies his breath weapon for when you round the corner. Even with Frost Resist you're going to get nailed for a ton of damage and have to make a concentration save (that you'd likely fail this time from the damage).

Legendary Action should have been Wing Attack to fly up in the the air to get out of melee range. If you wanted to pursue you'd be screwed (no fly at that level), although you could Misty Step.

Thank you for posting this reply. All the mistakes in this was driving me nuts. :)

[Malifice]

Notable Equipment: Hazirawn, Black Dragon Mask, Belt of Hill Giant Strength, Potion of Frost Resistance, Plate Mail.

Tooled up to the extreme. That helps.


Baston knows where the dragon is, so he goes to the corridor. He drinks a Potion of Frost Resistance. He finds the dragon, then he precasts Haste, sets the dragon as his Oath of Enmity, and goes on the attack. Feel free to poke holes in my grasp of the rules, but this was an awful lot of fun to do.

You cant have Haste known as a Paladin 6/ Sorc 4. You must be within 10' to use your oath of enmity.

Already wrong.


Round 1:

What range does the dragon become aware of you? Its passive perception is 21 and fantastic senses. Youre in Plate mail (disadvantage to stealth checks) and I bet you dumped Dex. How big is the room its in? I have zero idea how you were able to close the gap to melee range to strike the dragon on round 1.


Quickened Fireball, Dragon passes with Legendary Resistance, 15 fire damage.

You cant possibly know fireball as a Sorcerer 4/ Paladin 6.


Dragon Legendary Action: Tail attack, 27 to hit, 15 bludgeoning damage. Baston is at 62 hp.

Dragon Turn
Frightful Presence: Baston saves with a 13+8 Wisdom Save.
Bite: 8+11 = 19. Baston’s AC is 20 with Haste. Miss.
Claw: 15+11=26. Hit for 13 slashing.
Claw: 10+11=21. Baston casts Shield as a reaction, bringing his AC to 25. Miss.
Baston is at 49 hp.

Why didnt it ue its wing attack as its legendary action to knock you prone beforehand?

Also, is there any reason why it didnt withdraw on its turn and take to the sky? It flies 80' (far quicker than you even with Haste + Fly active - spells you shouldnt have due to only being a sorcerer 4, and spells you can have both up at the same time anyway).

It can fly 80'. You cant.


Makes 3 attacks with advantage: 8/6, 18/19, 1/14
One normal hit, two hits with GWM.

Hang on. Are you declaring the use of GWM after you make your attack rolls or before?


Baston knows Fly

No you dont. Not by RAW.


Part of this was due to GWM comboing with Oath of Enmity, part of it was because of Hazirawn's ridiculous damage (2d6+2d6 necro is pretty insane). Part of it is the combo of Paladin with Sorcerer's enhanced spell slots.

Nah man, it seems to be a large part because you had access to spells you shouldnt have (Haste, Fireball, Fly), you further broke the rules by using vow of enmity more than 10' away, Somehow you were able to close to melee range with a creature with a passive perception of 21 while wearing platemail, the dragon was stupid sticking in melee range with you, and you being tooled up with legendary items.

But it sounds like you had fun. Thats the important bit.

[joaber]

You cant have Haste known as a Paladin 6/ Sorc 4. You must be within 10' to use your oath of enmity.

You cant possibly know fireball as a Sorcerer 4/ Paladin 6.



you need be sorc 5 to get fireball or haste.

[Malifice]

you need be sorc 5 to get fireball or haste.

Or Fly. Which the OP also claimed to know.

And even then only the one.

In reality the encounter would have gone (no haste) probably pre cast bless. Advance to dragon, likely getting detected as soon as it hears you (passive perception 21, blindsight and darkvision, you dumped Dex and are in full plate. Stealth isnt a paladin or sorcerer skill) triggering initiative at that range.

I dont know the encounter exactly, but I hazard a guess that would be more than 30'.

Odds are you wont be able to close the distance far enough to engage it in melee on turn 1.

From there, you die.

[MaxWilson]

Or Fly. Which the OP also claimed to know.

And even then only the one.

Two actually. Going from 4th to 5th you gain a spells known, and you can also swap one of your existing spells for a 3rd level spell.

[Arkhios]

I find it interesting, why do so many of you utterly disregard any and all earlier posts acknowledged by OP that the spells known issue might not be RAW. Instead stating that in their group, it's a HOUSE RULE. Geez, give it a break already... If everyone in their group was happy, including the DM, "fun was had" and that's why we play, no?
Getting all roused up by rules, that can officially be bended in various ways with House Rules, is just stupid. Sorry, but it's true.

[Malifice]

I find it interesting, why do so many of you utterly disregard any and all earlier posts acknowledged by OP that the spells known issue might not be RAW. Instead stating that in their group, it's a HOUSE RULE. Geez, give it a break already... If everyone in their group was happy, including the DM, "fun was had" and that's why we play, no?
Getting all roused up by rules, that can officially be bended in various ways with House Rules, is just stupid. Sorry, but it's true.

People acknowledged that as long as he had fun good on him.

In his OP he asks if the tactics used were legal.

And its not just the broken nature of his houserules (imagine a Sorcerer 1/ Cleric 1/ Druid 18) that was the issue. He also messed up vow of enmity, forgot to make concentration saves, and the dragon was played super stupid (I still have no idea how he managed to close in on a dragon with a passive perception of 21 seeing as his stealth bonus was literally +0 with disadvantage).

If the argument is a gestalt Sorcerer/ Paladin armed to the teeth with legendary items can ignore limitations on core class features like vow of enmity, and ignore a key weakness of the class (stealth) to approach a perception 21 dragon unawares, apply GWM retroactively on hits, and kill a dragon thats played stupid by the DM, then great.

As long as he had fun, good on him.

[Jarlhen]

Just a question. Wouldn't he have access to level 3 and 4 spell slots? 4 level sorcerer + 6 level paladin makes a lvl 7 sorcerer, no? Multiclassing rules states you add half your paladin level for the purpose of determining spell slots. And at lvl 7 sorcerer he has 1 lvl 4 spell slots and 3 lvl 3. What did I miss?

[Kadarai]

so the conclusion of this post is that paladin/sorcerers are a bit too powerful if you over equip them, give them access to abilities they don't normally have and misinterpret or ignore some rules... Ok...

[Gignere]

so the conclusion of this post is that paladin/sorcerers are a bit too powerful if you over equip them, give them access to abilities they don't normally have and misinterpret or ignore some rules... Ok...

This their spell level interpretation is all broken. Why wouldn't everyone just play a 1 wizard/ 1 cleric / 1 bard / 1 Druid. Then decide which of the spell casting class features you like to level up in. You'll have access to every spell in the book, how awesome, not.

[Malifice]

Just a question. Wouldn't he have access to level 3 and 4 spell slots? 4 level sorcerer + 6 level paladin makes a lvl 7 sorcerer, no? Multiclassing rules states you add half your paladin level for the purpose of determining spell slots. And at lvl 7 sorcerer he has 1 lvl 4 spell slots and 3 lvl 3. What did I miss?

He has 4th level slots (Sorcerer 4 = 4 levels + Paladin 6 = 3 levels for 7th level caster).

He has the spells known of a 4th level sorcerer and a 6th level paladin with which to use those slots.

So he cant know fly, fireball and haste as they are 3rd level sorcerer spells.