Druid and his dog: Companion dilemma.

[Starkeeper]

I'm playing a Druid and, for fluff reasons, I really want to keep the Riding Dog(or standard Dog/Wolf if changing the base chassis can make things easier) I'll be picking up at level 1 for the entirety of my career. The problem I'm having is that, even with the bonuses from being an Animal Companion, it doesn't stand up to the level 4 alternatives very well, let alone the 7+ ones.

Awakening it and getting it back with Leadership is one thing I'm looking at but it still ends up pretty weak due to the 2 RHD and 2 from Awaken.

Sources available are more or less limited to core with a bit of cherry picking that the DM has to approve, I don't want to ask for too much though but if there's a few things that'll help, I'm willing to try.

[ATHATH]

Could you ask him to give the dog some (hopefully free) templates as it increases in HD?

[Necroticplague]

Get a larger canine, refluff it as your current one getting larger under the influence of your rearing and druidic connection to nature growing.

[DrMotives]

Get a larger canine, refluff it as your current one getting larger under the influence of your rearing and druidic connection to nature growing.

I like that idea. Direwolf, advanced wartrained climbdog, maybe knock a bigger canine back down with Dungeonbred template if you'd like it to fit in dungeons with you better. It'll still fall behind your druid, but you can certainly get a longer run out of it like that.

[(Un)Inspired]

Awakening it and grabing it with leadership is a good idea; just make sure to start geiving it class levels that will be great even if it has 4 RHD to begin with.

To that end I recomend one of two courses of action.

1) Give it Warblade, Swordsage, or Crusader levels. Its RHD at least count halfway towards IL and you can take standard action maneuvers so your dog can still fight with its bite and not have to worry about being underpowered compared to combatants that can make multiple attacks per round

2) Give it Ardent levels and the Practiced Manifester feat. It will effectively be just as power of an Ardent as someone who had 4 extra levels of Ardent instead of those stupid RHD because of he awesome way in which Ardents learn powers. Plus, and this is a big plus, psychic dogs are super cool. You've seen A Boy And His Dog, right?

[Coidzor]

Totemist levels would also be of interest to an Awakened Riding Dog, since it already has one natural weapon, and Totemist would let them enhance natural weapons as well as get more of them.

[eggynack]

Feats help. Natural bond from complete adventurer, companion spellbond from the PHB II, exalted companion from BoED allowing your companion to take vow of poverty, all of those things help to keep your relatively weak companion competitive with encounters into higher levels. Spells help too. Toss down an occasional buff like greater magic fang, bite of the wereX, or animal growth, and you'll get even further. None of these things are going to be as good as a well chosen advanced companion with those same things, because that's just how things work, but you might wind up with something as good as said advanced companion assuming you don't put that investment in.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I came up with an idea that might help, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476627-Another-Trick-for-Polymorph-Any-Object) though it'll require you to buy some spellcasting -- preferably from a StP erudite with the Supernatural Transformation feat, so curse of lycanthropy, at least, can't be dispelled.

[Grod_The_Giant]

2) Give it Ardent levels and the Practiced Manifester feat. It will effectively be just as power of an Ardent as someone who had 4 extra levels of Ardent instead of those stupid RHD because of he awesome way in which Ardents learn powers. Plus, and this is a big plus, psychic dogs are super cool. You've seen A Boy And His Dog, right?
Be sure to give it a Russian accent and some barding and have it refer to itself in third person.

http://www.nuestroscomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nova8dcp0028tw6.jpg

[Max Caysey]

I'm playing a Druid and, for fluff reasons, I really want to keep the Riding Dog(or standard Dog/Wolf if changing the base chassis can make things easier) I'll be picking up at level 1 for the entirety of my career. The problem I'm having is that, even with the bonuses from being an Animal Companion, it doesn't stand up to the level 4 alternatives very well, let alone the 7+ ones.

Awakening it and getting it back with Leadership is one thing I'm looking at but it still ends up pretty weak due to the 2 RHD and 2 from Awaken.

Sources available are more or less limited to core with a bit of cherry picking that the DM has to approve, I don't want to ask for too much though but if there's a few things that'll help, I'm willing to try.

What about exalted companio? Them make it take vow of povert! And use its feats on encreasing natural weapons! Or Natural Bon?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What about exalted companio? Them make it take vow of povert! And use its feats on encreasing natural weapons! Or Natural Bon?Vow of Pervert? Are we building Master Roshi, now?

[Starkeeper]

I'll check with the DM for the templates/higher end forms, not very hopeful for this since he's pretty strict RAW-wise.

I should've mentioned that ToB, UA and Incarnum are hard-banned from the game, otherwise an initiator would've been the first thing I'd go with. Ardent is interesting, might be a bit too much power for the DM's taste but I'll give check with him.

It's too bad Incarnum is banned, Totemist would've been a very flavourful class to work with.

I already asked the DM about Natural Spellbond, he rules it as no-mitigation so it effectively does nothing for a straight Druid, only covers for multi-classing progression losses. I did get the green light for Companion Spellbond already though. Exalted Companion has a -1 so I can't actually take it since we start at level 1.

Curse of Lycanthropy got updated in SC so I can't use that for your stated purpose.

Definitely going to ask my DM about Vow of Poverty, Alignment issue should reasonably be taken care of by the Awakening if my Druid is Neutral Good.

Thanks for all the answers so far, extremely helpful as always.

[eggynack]

The fact you're running a first level companion would also interfere with natural bond. I forgot about that. Anyway, for exalted companion, you could just pick it up at level three and say, "This riding dog is a celestial riding dog now," (with DM permission of course). The end result is basically the same as it is in the situation where you ditch the normal riding dog for a new celestial one, so I dunno why your DM'd have a problem with it.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think the idea you're looking for is a good one. I always feel guilty when I have to let go of a familiar or AC that's been really cool; that I been roleplaying for multiple levels (weeks, months, maybe even years or RL time) for something else that's also cool but maybe more mechanically powerful.

Could you tell us more about what sort of role you want you Dog to play? If you aren't married to the idea of keeping it a direct combatant you could alway give it suport class levels and have it spend its time buffing you. That way even if it isn't MAXPOWER then it could still be contibuting to you and the party.

Things like bard levels and letting it howl to inspire courage you or wizard levels and letting it cast buff spells like Haste or Heroism on you could keep it as a useful party member even if it is lagging 4+ levels behind.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The SpC version is an entirely different spell. "Curse of lycanthropy" has been bounced back and forth between two versions in several different books, and I really don't think the two spells were ever meant to replace each other.

If you can't cast the much better version, just hit your friend with a greater bestow curse and use that to give him lycanthropy. The spell is open-ended enough that it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Or just use a Supernatural PAO to turn it into a higher level wolf-monster, like a dire wolf or a refluffed dire bear.

[Starkeeper]

The fact you're running a first level companion would also interfere with natural bond. I forgot about that. Anyway, for exalted companion, you could just pick it up at level three and say, "This riding dog is a celestial riding dog now," (with DM permission of course). The end result is basically the same as it is in the situation where you ditch the normal riding dog for a new celestial one, so I dunno why your DM'd have a problem with it.

The fault lies with me for not stating that I'd be starting at level 1. Simply adding the Celestial template to the dog seems like a reasonable thing and as you said, makes no real difference anyway so I'm sure I can convince my DM to allow that.

I think the idea you're looking for is a good one. I always feel guilty when I have to let go of a familiar or AC that's been really cool; that I been roleplaying for multiple levels (weeks, months, maybe even years or RL time) for something else that's also cool but maybe more mechanically powerful.

Could you tell us more about what sort of role you want you Dog to play? If you aren't married to the idea of keeping it a direct combatant you could alway give it suport class levels and have it spend its time buffing you. That way even if it isn't MAXPOWER then it could still be contibuting to you and the party.

Things like bard levels and letting it howl to inspire courage you or wizard levels and letting it cast buff spells like Haste or Heroism on you could keep it as a useful party member even if it is lagging 4+ levels behind.

If you're familiar with Lancer (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Lancer_(Fate/strange_fake)) from Fate/Strange Fake, that's pretty much what I'm going for right now. Honestly, I could just keep the dog/wolf behind everyone and fight without him, a Druid has enough power to do that. But the party currently has a Swashbuckler, Rogue/Ranger(going ranged I think), Wizard(Conjuration specialist) and myself, so a bit of front-lining would be good. That might not be an issue of the Wizard goes for summons though, or if I just cast some SNAs myself.

And if worst comes to worst, I can probably make a good case about keeping the dog/wolf with my as a pet and have another AC for combat.

[Hiro Quester]

Some DM's count the time cost of training a new AC as part of the price of upgrading to a new AC. So training it for war riding, for example, or teaching it to Assist Attack (i.e. flank) requires a time-investment with a new animal.

So mine, for instance, would not allow my AC to remain the same creature but "grow up" from Serval to Leopard to Tiger to Dire Tiger, as I advanced.

Your DM may be more generous. Its a nice idea to be able to have your loyal Riding Dog progress to tiger forms. Though even if it does not change form, a riding dog can be a very useful mount/companion well into high levels. With +4 Darkleaf "mithral" chain shirt barding and barkskin active his AC can be 40, 105 hps, but his attack is +18 to hit with bite for 1d8+5 damage, +5 to trip. So he will not be as effective a fighter at higher levels, but his Armor Class and other fees make him rather robust mount/companion.

However, you may find that you want to use it as a riding dog less once you get wildshape. Many AC's of druids level 6 and higher tend to be hunting companions rather than mounts, as you spend more time either running along beside it or flying above it. (Companion Spellbond becomes a very useful feat when you are not always riding your AC, and want to share your buff spells with it over 30 ft instead of 5 ft.)

My gnome druid PC started with a Riding Dog. But I was a little relieved when he died at level 7, so I could get a tiger AC instead. I would have felt rather disloyal getting rid of him, as I had begun to want to do.

The Awaken/ Leadership (or wild cohort perhaps?) idea to keep him around while you get a new AC is a good one. That means keeping him until 9th level, when you get awaken spell and have a feat slot open.

[Fizban]

The problem lies in the animal companion advancement table: it's too weak. It's full of these piddly abilities written as if the designer expected them to be applied to something that's already powerful so the advancement bonuses are weak, but then you trade the weak bonuses for something that's naturally a grizzly bear. The "druid level -X" mechanic is exactly counter to how the advancement is designed and it's so bloody obvious it's maddening. There are two dead blocks later on when the only creatures that will ever gain those empty abilities are the creatures that already suck the most.

The solution then is to change the table. Double the str/dex bonuses, switch Multiattack and Devotion so that Multiattack shows up early enough to match the animals that already get it for free and/or have pounce/and or just have bigger bites than your dog, upgrade Devotion to include Blood Bond (+2 attack/damage/saves when master is threatened) from Blackguard or at least add it to the next empty block (that'd be 12-14), and make up some sort of ungodly capstone to stick on the last bit.

If your strict-RAW DM complains about this all being overpowered, you may present him with the strict-RAW statblocks of 1st level companions on the improved progression compared to dire wolves, grizzly bears, elephants, and tyrannosaurs and ask him which is more powerful.

Edit: for ease of use, the table

Class Level HD NA Str/Dex Tricks Special
1st-2nd +0 +0 +0 1 Link, share spells
3rd-5th +2 +2 +2 2 Evasion
6th-8th +4 +4 +4 3 Multiattack
9th-11th +6 +6 +6 4 Devotion
12th-14th +8 +8 +8 5 Blood Bond
15th-17th +10 +10 +10 6 Improved evasion
18th-20th +12 +12 +12 7 ?
Heh, funny how it's all the same numbers now.

[eggynack]

The solution then is to change the table. Double the str/dex bonuses, switch Multiattack and Devotion so that Multiattack shows up early enough to match the animals that already get it for free and/or have pounce/and or just have bigger bites than your dog, upgrade Devotion to include Blood Bond (+2 attack/damage/saves when master is threatened) from Blackguard or at least add it to the next empty block (that'd be 12-14), and make up some sort of ungodly capstone to stick on the last bit.

If your strict-RAW DM complains about this all being overpowered, you may present him with the strict-RAW statblocks of 1st level companions on the improved progression compared to dire wolves, grizzly bears, elephants, and tyrannosaurs and ask him which is more powerful.
I wouldn't advise that, at least not without some other changes, because as you have it it is rather overpowered. Sure, if we're just talking first level companions, there's not all that much that's completely game breaking (though the boost to the riding dog at level three isn't a non-issue), but when you talk about, say, a fleshraker, then you're using a companion that was already better than dire wolves and bears on the old progression, and then buffing it by a whole lot. It's not just some issue unique to one companion either. The magebred companions stay good late too, and so does the dire tortoise, and even the sailsnake has some late-game viability.

You're operating under the premise that a new companion, optimally chosen, is blanket better than progression, and that's just not the case. It's the case in a majority of situations, but those high end corner case companions are extremely problematic because they mean that you're buffing options that are not merely good, but ones that are rather necessarily great. And, let's be real here, you're talking about buffing druids. They don't need the help. Sure, if you're just trying to establish parity between a low end option and a usually used higher end one, then fine, but this sort of change would threaten to create a newly optimal choice even without the really broken companions. You don't even need to go out of core to come up with ways to make progression logical, and that limited utility would get way less limited in this new universe. Thus, even without fleshraker tier companions, I still don't think this is an especially good idea.

[Janthkin]

Let it die, and Reincarnate it? It's not a humanoid, so the book tells us to consult w/the DM to create a new table (or just pick one). If you're willing to drop 1000g every 3-4 levels on it, it seems reasonable that your DM should let you move up the companion tables.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are other ways beyond PAO/lycanthropy shenanigans to add templates to animals. Warbeast, celestial/fiendish/anarchic/axiomatic (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a), and so on. And PsyRef its feats. PAO into a human and give it Troll-Blooded for regeneration, which will help a lot.

[Optimator]

Magic items can go a long way.

[Fizban]

I quite liked my little buff here and wrote it down in my great pile o' notes, so prepare for a heated defense :smallamused:

I wouldn't advise that, at least not without some other changes, because as you have it it is rather overpowered. Sure, if we're just talking first level companions, there's not all that much that's completely game breaking (though the boost to the riding dog at level three isn't a non-issue), but when you talk about, say, a fleshraker, then you're using a companion that was already better than dire wolves and bears on the old progression, and then buffing it by a whole lot. It's not just some issue unique to one companion either. The magebred companions stay good late too, and so does the dire tortoise, and even the sailsnake has some late-game viability.

You're operating under the premise that a new companion, optimally chosen, is blanket better than progression, and that's just not the case. It's the case in a majority of situations, but those high end corner case companions are extremely problematic because they mean that you're buffing options that are not merely good, but ones that are rather necessarily great. And, let's be real here, you're talking about buffing druids. They don't need the help. Sure, if you're just trying to establish parity between a low end option and a usually used higher end one, then fine, but this sort of change would threaten to create a newly optimal choice even without the really broken companions. You don't even need to go out of core to come up with ways to make progression logical, and that limited utility would get way less limited in this new universe. Thus, even without fleshraker tier companions, I still don't think this is an especially good idea.
I'm talking about buffing animal companions. By all means remove them from druids altogether, perfectly fine with me. Granted I am making the suggestion for a druid player, but if his DM had a problem with Druid he wouldn't be playing one. I'm not sure what you're talking about at the end there: I haven't left core to modify the table, in fact I made it as simple as possible. Double some small numbers, switch two abilities, and borrow one from a core PrC to plug in an empty spot. I don't see how you expect to establish parity for the weaker option without making it as strong as the other options, and this is about as small a boost as you can give (unless the plan is to just axe the better options of course). The bonus being doubled caps originally at +6: a 1st level companion will eventually get +6 str/dex, with this it gets +12 (only +6 from before) and Blood Bond for +2 attack/damage/saves. Each extra -3 of cost reduces the net bonuses by 1, so mid-tier animal that costs -9 is only getting +3 more than it would have before, not a whole lot.

The Riding Dog at level 3 is a non-issue. First (in case anyone's missing it): normally a riding dog has 15's in strength and dex, +1 at Druid 3 up to 16, and the hidden part is that the extra 2 HD give it the first +1 ability score increase. With my change it goes to 17's, and thus the +1 ability score allows it to get 18 strength or dex at level 3. Congratulations, you have achieved 18 str one level before Black Bear (19), Bison (22), and Crocodile (19). The tiniest of advantages in a level range that I'll admit I don't even care about all that much. I'd call it a feature: the 1st animal companion upgrade now actually gives you something before being completely invalidated by replacements, and legacy companions in general hit their next tier of stuff one level before replacements show up. Is it unfair to let an animal companion get 18str at level 3 when many PCs won't have that much? Yes, just as unfair as it is to do the same at level 4, or to be playing two characters at level 1. Not the problem being addressed.

What exact animals are so good that they, with the bonuses from the table, actually beat the best of the new companions available? The Fleshraker's problems lie with the Fleshraker and should be dealt with like any individually broken spell. The Dire Tortoise is the same, blatantly overpowered with 14 natural hit dice at the cost of level-9 when 10HD is the best of any other creature at the same tier, and with an ability that never should have been printed. And I'll head off the Allosaurus which shouldn't be huge at level-9 either. I'm looking at the PHB2 list mind you, so yeah there's probably some obscure stuff I'm not aware of (I'm sure you have something in mind from your guide), but just like obscure demon summoning I'm not going to balance around that when making adjustments to a common feature. I was not aware that you could get magebred companions: unless they have a free or reduced level cost they'll still be worse than the choices on the next tier simply on lack of hit dice, in my opinion. The main difference will always be that the smaller animal ends up with better AC thanks to the natural armor and (doubled) dexterity bonus, while the new replacement has equal or higher strength and better natural weapons. I am totally fine with making legacy companions tougher when the whole point is that some players want their early companions to not die, and they will deal less damage so what's the harm?

I am making my suggestions based on the obvious choices (most of which are MM1) Serval-> Leopard-> Lion-> Dire Lion, lower tier gains more AC/HD, higher tier deals more damage. Riding Dog-> Dire Wolf-> Dire Wolf+ "Multiattack": at 12th the Dire Wolf can make a second attack at -5 for 1d8+15 each, but a Brown Bear at 12th does two attacks at full for 1d8+12 with a third on the way. Next level Dire Bear shows up and fair enough, it has -1 str compared to BB, but it also has +2HD and all high saves making it more resistant to magic. Lesse, Rhino vs Trike? Rhino gets a bit more strength but the Trike still has more HD. In all cases the best feature is better AC and continuity, and I was under the impression that hardcore optimizers didn't think AC mattered. The final tier isn't really worth comparing, none of the core options were ever great while the non-core options crush them and my boosted companion table both.

The new optimums aren't some special edge-case combination, they're just the old optimums but good enough to not need swapping out. A Brown Bear or Dire Wolf is ever so slightly better than a Dire Bear in pure damage on some attacks, at the cost of hit points and saves, Brown Bear and Dire Wolf come in at level-6. The pouncers rely so much on claw primary and weapon dice that until you hit Lion you've got no chance, Lion is level-6. I'm adding Blood Bond at 12-14, it's not big enough catch up to the final tier monsters but the biggest creatures that can get Blood Bond are at level-6. So if you're really that worried then fine, the improved companion progression is only for creatures on the level 1 and level-3 lists, boom, done. And Fleshraker can bite me :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

I'm talking about buffing animal companions. By all means remove them from druids altogether, perfectly fine with me. Granted I am making the suggestion for a druid player, but if his DM had a problem with Druid he wouldn't be playing one.
First, it's implied that this is a broad druid thing. Presumably, this would work also with druids with non-riding dogs, and in those cases it's more problematic. Second, Whether the DM's fine with a druid or not, that doesn't mean they're fine with a buffed druid. He's already going to be better than the rest of the party without any changes, so this isn't necessary overall.


I'm not sure what you're talking about at the end there: I haven't left core to modify the table, in fact I made it as simple as possible.
What I mean is that the powerful non-core options aren't strictly necessary to make these choices optimal.

I don't see how you expect to establish parity for the weaker option without making it as strong as the other options, and this is about as small a boost as you can give (unless the plan is to just axe the better options of course).
I don't expect to establish parity, at least not this way. Dunno why it has to exist here. Beyond that, the ultimate goal would be to establish said parity without buffing already potent creatures.


The Riding Dog at level 3 is a non-issue. First (in case anyone's missing it): normally a riding dog has 15's in strength and dex, +1 at Druid 3 up to 16, and the hidden part is that the extra 2 HD give it the first +1 ability score increase. With my change it goes to 17's, and thus the +1 ability score allows it to get 18 strength or dex at level 3. Congratulations, you have achieved 18 str one level before Black Bear (19), Bison (22), and Crocodile (19). The tiniest of advantages in a level range that I'll admit I don't even care about all that much. I'd call it a feature: the 1st animal companion upgrade now actually gives you something before being completely invalidated by replacements, and legacy companions in general hit their next tier of stuff one level before replacements show up. Is it unfair to let an animal companion get 18str at level 3 when many PCs won't have that much? Yes, just as unfair as it is to do the same at level 4, or to be playing two characters at level 1. Not the problem being addressed.
The reason it's a problem is that riding dogs start out melee character equivalent, and tossing a buff to them at level three lets them maintain that status to an even greater degree. Low level druids need such a buff to an even lesser extent, given that they're just about the best class in that range.


What exact animals are so good that they, with the bonuses from the table, actually beat the best of the new companions available? The Fleshraker's problems lie with the Fleshraker and should be dealt with like any individually broken spell. The Dire Tortoise is the same, blatantly overpowered with 14 natural hit dice at the cost of level-9 when 10HD is the best of any other creature at the same tier, and with an ability that never should have been printed.
Those are the biggest ones, along with the magebred ghost tiger and magebred brown bear. Beyond that, limited to core, I think that the brown bear remains viable beyond its level range (because it compares well to polar bear), and as I said, sailsnake is always sweet, in my opinion retaining viability due to its unique capabilities rather than on statistical basis. Also, I think riding dog may remain viable in a core environment up to 7th.

I was not aware that you could get magebred companions: unless they have a free or reduced level cost they'll still be worse than the choices on the next tier simply on lack of hit dice, in my opinion.
The only magebred companions that can actually be used at all are the brown bear and tiger from five nations, and those don't feature any cost for the upgrade. And they're absurd. Bit limited in terms of who can take them, but absurd nonetheless.


I am making my suggestions based on the obvious choices.

I know. That's the problem. If you just stick with middle of the road companions, then the upgrade is probably fine. You need to make use of a really powerful companion for it to be better than picking up a new companion. But, if you do use those really powerful companions, then they were already good enough to be worth not swapping, and now they're even better than that. I suppose you could include bans on companions that cross that threshold, but as long as such a rule is some implicit thing that you're just naturally expecting every DM to use, rather than an explicit element of the rule set, your suggested upgrade is problematic.

[johnbragg]

First, it's implied that this is a broad druid thing.

Does it help if we declare and proclaim this to be a *special snowflake houserule* thing, not a suggested 3.5 tweak to be published and entered into the Great Compendium of 3X Splat?

If not, does it help if we declare the buff only applicable to Animal Companions off of the PHB/SRD table?

Obviously druids don't need any buffs. But we're talking here about how to make a fluff choice comparable to obviously mechanically superior choices. When the right fluff choice is the wrong mechanical choice, that is always sad.

(There's a case to be made here that "You're a druid. Play the fluff, take the nerf and quit complaining, ya Tier 1 crybaby.")

That said, what if we junk part of the Animal Companion table, and use the normal Improving Monster progression?
So at 4th level, instead of +1 Str/+1 Dex, +2 HD Medium to Large means +8 STr, +4 Con and -2 Dex. instead of + 1 Str, + 1 Dex.
(Maybe have the pet improve at 3rd level by the book, and metamorphose at 4th level picking up 7 STr, 4 Con and losing 2 Dex.)

Then at 7th level Fluffy upgrades to a Dire Wolf, and at 10th level an Awakened Dire Wolf.

[eggynack]

Does it help if we declare and proclaim this to be a *special snowflake houserule* thing, not a suggested 3.5 tweak to be published and entered into the Great Compendium of 3X Splat?
Sure. Nothing wrong with buffs that suit the situation. This house rule only really becomes problematic when you generalize it.


If not, does it help if we declare the buff only applicable to Animal Companions off of the PHB/SRD table?
Less so. There's not a ton of room where this would produce over-normal companions in core, but I'd suspect there's at least some.

Obviously druids don't need any buffs. But we're talking here about how to make a fluff choice comparable to obviously mechanically superior choices. When the right fluff choice is the wrong mechanical choice, that is always sad.
My issue is that I don't want this to be the right mechanical choice. Lemme clarify that. See, if you just get this to perfect parity, or right under it, then things are fine. You're not buffing the druid, because the druid could do this other thing already that's just as powerful. However, when this is the right mechanical choice, then you're buffing the whole druid, not just balancing choices. If you cut out all the top end, the area where this would produce a druid that's superior to any druid that can currently be produced, then I think things're pretty much fine.


(There's a case to be made here that "You're a druid. Play the fluff, take the nerf and quit complaining, ya Tier 1 crybaby.")
I don't tend to subscribe to that argument as a categorical thing. For example, I'd be fine with buffing shapechange such that it, say, worked with natural spell and wilding clasps. However, where I'd take issue is with a buff to that variant which inexplicably makes it better than wild shape. You want to keep options relatively even, such that they're not false options, but when you're dealing with something so high on the power curve you usually want to avoid overbalancing things to any extent. This sort of buff is a rather narrow tightrope, I think.

[johnbragg]

Sure. Nothing wrong with buffs that suit the situation. This house rule only really becomes problematic when you generalize it.

Agreed.


Less so. There's not a ton of room where this would produce over-normal companions in core, but I'd suspect there's at least some.

Probably.


My issue is that I don't want this to be the right mechanical choice. Lemme clarify that.

No, I get what you're saying. Buffing the standard ACs to the point where they're straight better than swapping out buffs the druid. You're right about the fine line between "upgrading your loyal AC is a chump choice, why not go ahead and take the Toughness feat" and "Whoops, we just buffed the druid even further."

[Ruethgar]

Dogs and Wolves both have an ECL of 3 when awakened, Riding Dogs go up to 4 so I would suggest a Wolf for the extra HD.

[Bronk]

I'm playing a Druid and, for fluff reasons, I really want to keep the Riding Dog(or standard Dog/Wolf if changing the base chassis can make things easier) I'll be picking up at level 1 for the entirety of my career. The problem I'm having is that, even with the bonuses from being an Animal Companion, it doesn't stand up to the level 4 alternatives very well, let alone the 7+ ones.

Awakening it and getting it back with Leadership is one thing I'm looking at but it still ends up pretty weak due to the 2 RHD and 2 from Awaken.

Sources available are more or less limited to core with a bit of cherry picking that the DM has to approve, I don't want to ask for too much though but if there's a few things that'll help, I'm willing to try.

I like the ideas already brought up, including having your dog secretly be something else that it will grow into. I'm currently playing a cleric with a dire panther kitten wild cohort, that I've festooned with magic items and that I'm also training to be a war beast, so I can sympathize!

Here are a few ideas I haven't seen yet.

1: PAO your critter into something else... animal to animal should be permanent.

2: Give it to your druid's family as a pet, then get a new one.

3: Take leadership, but instead of awakening your dog, take a druid cohort and give the dog to them as their new companion.

Good luck!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Here are a few ideas I haven't seen yet.

1: PAO your critter into something else... animal to animal should be permanent.I do believe you missed my first post, then. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20363223&postcount=8)

[SangoProduction]

Hey. Here's a suggestion that no one seemed to have come across...take a new animal companion...and refluff it as your old one. Problem solved.

[Fizban]

First, it's implied that this is a broad druid thing. Presumably, this would work also with druids with non-riding dogs, and in those cases it's more problematic. Second, Whether the DM's fine with a druid or not, that doesn't mean they're fine with a buffed druid. He's already going to be better than the rest of the party without any changes, so this isn't necessary overall.
I just don't see it as a buff. When someone's deliberately taking the weaker option and getting nothing in return, changes that make that more powerful aren't buffs, they're fixes, refunds. Technically there's a slight increase in power (as in raw str) with mid-tier animals, but I don't find it significant enough to shut down since if you're penny pinching the exact stats of druid companions you probably shouldn't be allowing druids. I don't understand how one could combine such awareness of problems with a refusal to fix them when being able to do so is kinda the whole point of playing with people instead of machines, but some people do I guess.

I don't expect to establish parity, at least not this way. Dunno why it has to exist here. Beyond that, the ultimate goal would be to establish said parity without buffing already potent creatures.
Because I just really noticed how stupidly backwards the animal companion table and reduced druid level mechanic is and I demand action. Parity should exist to encourage the sort of companion attachment that prevents people from wanting to abuse it in the first place, and which many seek as a main feature.

The reason it's a problem is that riding dogs start out melee character equivalent, and tossing a buff to them at level three lets them maintain that status to an even greater degree. Low level druids need such a buff to an even lesser extent, given that they're just about the best class in that range.
Yup, and any DM that's willing to consider class and feature fixes who's concerned about animal companions being overpowered to begin with is perfectly capable of fixing that. The OP's DM has been described as strict-RAW and may not be willing to consider such changes (or the OP might accept the loss in order to match the party), in which case I hope someone else finds my idea useful.

Those are the biggest ones, along with the magebred ghost tiger and magebred brown bear. Beyond that, limited to core, I think that the brown bear remains viable beyond its level range (because it compares well to polar bear), and as I said, sailsnake is always sweet, in my opinion retaining viability due to its unique capabilities rather than on statistical basis. Also, I think riding dog may remain viable in a core environment up to 7th.
I'm surprised I got so many of them, definitely not changing my tune then. That's 5 broken options from sources of varying obscurity to ban, while dozens of others are perfectly fine and benefit from increased longevity. The Riding Dog's niche is tripping, and the Cheetah would beat it at that if not for 1HD and 3 AC, instead it's a full attack alternative. At 7th the Riding Dog is crushed by the Dire Wolf, but with my suggestions giving +2 extra strength and moving Multiattack forward, it becomes a middle option between Cheetah and Dire Wolf (3 attacks trip+4, 2 attacks trip +5 and more AC, or 1 attack trip +11, naturally the large size always wins).

Edit: missed this bit further down:

My issue is that I don't want this to be the right mechanical choice. Lemme clarify that. See, if you just get this to perfect parity, or right under it, then things are fine. You're not buffing the druid, because the druid could do this other thing already that's just as powerful. However, when this is the right mechanical choice, then you're buffing the whole druid, not just balancing choices. If you cut out all the top end, the area where this would produce a druid that's superior to any druid that can currently be produced, then I think things're pretty much fine.
You have failed to produce any substantial evidence my fix+some lower tier animal has become the superior mechanical choice and thus buffed the druid, especially in core. I've run the stats on a number of comparisons which all had tradeoffs I found reasonable, while you've provided only non-core monsters that are widely known problems (Fleshraker, Dire Tortoise), or obviously overpowered (Free Magebred Brown Bear/Ghost Tiger).

I know. That's the problem. If you just stick with middle of the road companions, then the upgrade is probably fine. You need to make use of a really powerful companion for it to be better than picking up a new companion. But, if you do use those really powerful companions, then they were already good enough to be worth not swapping, and now they're even better than that. I suppose you could include bans on companions that cross that threshold, but as long as such a rule is some implicit thing that you're just naturally expecting every DM to use, rather than an explicit element of the rule set, your suggested upgrade is problematic.
So we agree that it's not a problem with the fix, it's a problem with the options that are already overpowered.* Which I don't consider my problem, as I find strict RAW very silly. Celerity is a RAW 1st party printed spell, as is Arcane Spellsurge, but I'm not going to take them into account if I make broad fixes to arcanists. I could nerf battlefield control and save or lose broadly or in specific (just as I could remove or delay Animal Companions), or make blasting easier by allowing alterable energy types (as I make low-tier companions scale better), but two problematic spells that each DM can instantly decide yea or nay on at first glance will not affect that, just as three problematic companion options won't alter my suggestion for fixing the main Animal Companion progression (and the two blatantly OP free magebreds don't even count).

*Or we disagree about what's overpowered. Indeed, the Brown Bear/Dire Bear are strong enough to use all game right there in core, which is why they're my go-to high point. If you describe them as middle of the road then you imply that those I see as obviously overpowered are actually just fine as is, which I find dissonant when you know that the bulk of the beast is in the beast.

[Segev]

Hey. Here's a suggestion that no one seemed to have come across...take a new animal companion...and refluff it as your old one. Problem solved.

Somebody else did mention it, but it's worth emphasizing.

Heck, just about anything valid can be refluffed to be a dog that's getting bigger and nastier under the influence of your powers. Fleshraker dinosaurs are popular, but nothing about their attacks couldn't be done by an aggressive, magically-empowered dog (with poisonous saliva?).

[SangoProduction]

Somebody else did mention it, but it's worth emphasizing.

Heck, just about anything valid can be refluffed to be a dog that's getting bigger and nastier under the influence of your powers. Fleshraker dinosaurs are popular, but nothing about their attacks couldn't be done by an aggressive, magically-empowered dog (with poisonous saliva?).

Meh. I only got about half way through the first page before getting bored lol.

[eggynack]

I just don't see it as a buff. When someone's deliberately taking the weaker option and getting nothing in return, changes that make that more powerful aren't buffs, they're fixes, refunds. Technically there's a slight increase in power (as in raw str) with mid-tier animals, but I don't find it significant enough to shut down since if you're penny pinching the exact stats of druid companions you probably shouldn't be allowing druids. I don't understand how one could combine such awareness of problems with a refusal to fix them when being able to do so is kinda the whole point of playing with people instead of machines, but some people do I guess.
But you're not necessarily taking weaker companions, is part of the thing, and even a slight increase in overall power on a druid seems like a bad move, is the other part of the thing.


Because I just really noticed how stupidly backwards the animal companion table and reduced druid level mechanic is and I demand action. Parity should exist to encourage the sort of companion attachment that prevents people from wanting to abuse it in the first place, and which many seek as a main feature.
That's fine for what it is, but you've gotta make sure that you don't make this other bad thing happen. If the rule only applied to riding dogs (or first level companions overall, I suppose), and then only when past level three, there probably wouldn't be any problems at all. It's when you generalize that problems crop up.


I'm surprised I got so many of them, definitely not changing my tune then. That's 5 broken options from sources of varying obscurity to ban, while dozens of others are perfectly fine and benefit from increased longevity. The Riding Dog's niche is tripping, and the Cheetah would beat it at that if not for 1HD and 3 AC, instead it's a full attack alternative. At 7th the Riding Dog is crushed by the Dire Wolf, but with my suggestions giving +2 extra strength and moving Multiattack forward, it becomes a middle option between Cheetah and Dire Wolf (3 attacks trip+4, 2 attacks trip +5 and more AC, or 1 attack trip +11, naturally the large size always wins).
It's not a massive list, but it's a relevant one. Something with horrid probably crops up on the list too, and maybe something else I'm forgetting. You really are usually better off swapping. The problem is that usually isn't always, even in the current system.


You have failed to produce any substantial evidence my fix+some lower tier animal has become the superior mechanical choice and thus buffed the druid, especially in core. I've run the stats on a number of comparisons which all had tradeoffs I found reasonable, while you've provided only non-core monsters that are widely known problems (Fleshraker, Dire Tortoise), or obviously overpowered (Free Magebred Brown Bear/Ghost Tiger).
It's inevitably a difficult thing to provide evidence for, as the line between, "Was too powerful already," and, "Is too powerful now," is a thin and blurry one. Like, I dunno if a dire tortoise is strictly an overpowered option. It's just very good, and happens to have defenses that justify its use even with advancement. There is also the notable fact, however, that some of the problem with holding a lower tier companion lies with those same higher tier companions. Like, you have a brown bear, and you're considering keeping it, but there's a dire tortoise right there.

At the same time though, is there really much that outpaces a brown bear or giant crocodile at level ten, particularly in grappling terms, if you eliminate those high tier options? I suppose you'd go with giant constrictor, but I think the comparison there is particularly close, so that might be one of those claimed edge cases. I also really like the fhorge. Maybe there's something in that. Prolly not, but man, that one is so weird.

So we agree that it's not a problem with the fix, it's a problem with the options that are already overpowered.* Which I don't consider my problem, as I find strict RAW very silly.
The problem is both, I think. You have these edge cases, and then you make them better. You could always skip banning those companions, and just make a list of creatures that these rules don't apply to. Either way would be reasonable.


*Or we disagree about what's overpowered. Indeed, the Brown Bear/Dire Bear are strong enough to use all game right there in core, which is why they're my go-to high point. If you describe them as middle of the road then you imply that those I see as obviously overpowered are actually just fine as is, which I find dissonant when you know that the bulk of the beast is in the beast.
Well, y'know, I tend to concern myself most with really high end options, and ones across books, and in that context the brown bear is definitely middle of the road. I mean, the magebred version is right there, being absurd.

[Bronk]

I do believe you missed my first post, then. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20363223&postcount=8)

I didn't miss it, but I didn't follow the link either. I did just now though, and it went to a post I read of yours a few days ago about PAO shenanigans involving turning Devastation Vermin into humans, infecting them with lycanthropy, and so on.

I'm suggesting just changing them into another animal and leaving them like that. It would now be a tiger, or dire tiger, or whatever, but it would still be, at heart, a dog, and so it would still have all the druid bonus HD, and still be your animal companion.